In the war of toxic masculinity vs Trump badmouthing, toxic masculinity has lost.

gorfias

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Trump is a coward. We could start at his shameful dodging of the draft during Vietnam with a bogus medical exemption, but that's a limited concept of cowardice.

He's a narcissist, and narcissists tend to be, deep down, cowards. You can see Trump's cowardice in his pathetic bullying, belittling of others and boasting. Here's a man who has risen to the highest office in the land, and he's an insecure weakling who can't take criticism without flying off the handle. Cowards repeatedly pick on people weaker than them. Cowards make empty threats they can't enforce. Cowards cannot tolerate disagreement, and need to surround themselves with cronies to feel safe. Cowards refuse to take responsibility for their own actions.



Trump needs to dominate. Powerful men are a threat, particularly to someone as insecure as Trump. You can see this by the way he's surrounded himself with toadies, how he drives his supporters to express their admiration for him, how he's demanded loyalty and obedience from them. He will challenge powerful men because it's the only way he can feel superior to them should he beat them, but it stems from fear, envy and resentment.



Of course he isn't. He doesn't support anybody except where they're useful to him.

Trump clearly surrounds himself with... a certain type of woman: attractive, preferably blonde, and that he can safely feel superior to. His daughter is under his power. He does not have a healthy attitude to women. When we looked for wives, I suspect most of us looked for women who are in many ways our equal, who we'd go through life with as partners. Look at Trump's wives (and also the many affairs he's had, the models he's ogled and touched up). The sexual assaults, the imposition of his power over them. Some of them will have been smart, but let's not ever pretend Trump was interested in them for their brains or talents. He's never wanted an equal, he wants someone pretty who is dependent on him, a trophy to indulge himself or show off. That's because he's a cowardly, insecure weakling. He cannot handle the idea someone may stand up to him, at times make him feel inferior. Especially a woman.
I don't disagree with what you write, ie, he' doesn't support anybody except when useful to him. If useful to him, I don't care their national origin, race, religion. He'll back them to the extent he needs to in order to achieve his aims.

He has all kinds of flaws, especially a self serving narcissism.

But the guy also displays amazing raw courage. He took on the establishment against all odds with so many powerful resources all arrayed against him. The Bush family alone was a major threat. I'm amazed he has not ended up like Seth Rich. And he had to know the danger to himself. Even Chuck Schumer said the intel community had a 1,000 ways to Sunday to get back at him. And that isn't stopping him.

Trump is a lot of things but to call him cowardly and liken him to an incel or beta male just seems off the mark by far.
 

Thaluikhain

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But the guy also displays amazing raw courage. He took on the establishment against all odds with so many powerful resources all arrayed against him. The Bush family alone was a major threat. I'm amazed he has not ended up like Seth Rich. And he had to know the danger to himself. Even Chuck Schumer said the intel community had a 1,000 ways to Sunday to get back at him. And that isn't stopping him.
"The establishment" isn't stopping him because he's part of it, and isn't pretending very hard not to be. All that talk of draining the swamp faded away after he got voted in, to the surprise of nobody that was paying attention.

He might not have been a career politician, and he favours giving jobs to people with no relevant experience more than most. But he's hurting and helping the right people, same as always.
 

Agema

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If you want the actual biblical perspective, you could compare Trump to Zacchaeus. Someone with an awful record of sin, given opportunity by Jesus to make amends for his copious wrongs, and then the self-righteous in the crowd indignantly protested that someone so sucky should be given that opportunity.
I am a huge believer in rehabilitation and redemption. However, I also expect evidence of them.

For instance, I am more than a little cynical about someone happening to get in with the religious about the same time they started planning a presidential bid. I'm mildly cynical about a notorious womaniser with a penchant for good-looking blodes deciding his pet pastor would be a good-looking blonde. I'm extremely cynical that of all the branches of Christianity available, he chose as pet pastor someone from the evangelical community that is a key voting bloc of the party he decided to run for.

That someone then doesn't appear to attend church, make any reference to religion aside from the normal US political boilerplates, and continues to conduct vast swathes of his life in a manner that strikes me as dishonest, thoroughly unpleasant to others, and (to use a more Biblical adjective) sinful, with spectacularly little remorse for any of it or demonstrating significant attempts to improve.

I don't know about Biblical precedents - it's 30 years since I last read the Bible - but there's no shortage of historical characters who made loud noises and gestures towards religion just to suck in gullible believers. It was a great way to be made a saint in the old days. Fund building a monastery or order your peasants into chapel every Sunday: the church can then conveniently discover a few miracles to seal the deal.
 

Sneed's SeednFeed

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But the guy also displays amazing raw courage. He took on the establishment against all odds with so many powerful resources all arrayed against him. The Bush family alone was a major threat. I'm amazed he has not ended up like Seth Rich. And he had to know the danger to himself. Even Chuck Schumer said the intel community had a 1,000 ways to Sunday to get back at him. And that isn't stopping him.

Trump is a lot of things but to call him cowardly and liken him to an incel or beta male just seems off the mark by far.
Steady on mate, you're describing a millionaire businessman who had his fingers in many investment pies, not Emilio Zapata. Maybe the 'establishment's lukewarm response is because much like Reagan he's somewhere between a useful idiot to galvanise aggressive foreign policies and also not directly opposed to the aims of a society and political body based around exploitation.

Not like the dude stood off against the army or was ever involved in a fight that he wouldn't snitch on if things didn't go his way lmao.
 

Sneed's SeednFeed

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If you want the actual biblical perspective, you could compare Trump to Zacchaeus. Someone with an awful record of sin, given opportunity by Jesus to make amends for his copious wrongs, and then the self-righteous in the crowd indignantly protested that someone so sucky should be given that opportunity.
I missed the part where Zaccheus descended from the tree and then fired rockets at an airfield in Iraq to assassinate an Iranian general in revenge for a golfcart.
 

gorfias

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"The establishment" isn't stopping him because he's part of it, and isn't pretending very hard not to be. All that talk of draining the swamp faded away after he got voted in, to the surprise of nobody that was paying attention.

He might not have been a career politician, and he favours giving jobs to people with no relevant experience more than most. But he's hurting and helping the right people, same as always.
He has "grown" some once in office. That's a big reason that the Breitbart guy (dang brain freeze, what's his name??!) left. He wanted the acceptance speech to be full of bomb throwing. Instead, it was full of reconciliation. Ann Coulter is turning on him too. but... see below...

Steady on mate, you're describing a millionaire businessman who had his fingers in many investment pies, not Emilio Zapata. Maybe the 'establishment's lukewarm response is because much like Reagan he's somewhere between a useful idiot to galvanise aggressive foreign policies and also not directly opposed to the aims of a society and political body based around exploitation.

Not like the dude stood off against the army or was ever involved in a fight that he wouldn't snitch on if things didn't go his way lmao.
He still seems to have all the right enemies. And he had to know he'd make them when he ran for POTUS in 2016. With celebrities openly talking about blowing up the white house and displaying mock ups of his own severed head, he knows literally that his life is on the line bucking the system. Yet he is doing so. So, I give him credit for that much.
 

Sneed's SeednFeed

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He still seems to have all the right enemies. And he had to know he'd make them when he ran for POTUS in 2016. With celebrities openly talking about blowing up the white house and displaying mock ups of his own severed head, he knows literally that his life is on the line bucking the system. Yet he is doing so. So, I give him credit for that much.
Beligerence and garnering enemies does not equal bravery (not that I care about the Dems, but there's different levels of beligerence - useful and performative). One could just as easily be a pariah for the sake of it and retroactively use 'bravery' to justify it, which is what Trump supporters do. He wasn't doing shit up until the election which is when people started swarming around him, and I thought part of the requirement of being a public figure, and a president, is to have a tough skin when it comes to people making death threats. By that standard, every head of government is brave, they're just not covered by the world's strongest army since it's usually other heads of state that have to worry about the CIA being topple-happy.

People confronting the police and the army are brave. Running for an election when you're already ultra-rich is a game. To me it's about as brave as gambling in a casino or playing a spooky videogame.
 
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Dalisclock

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I'm amazed he has not ended up like Seth Rich. And he had to know the danger to himself.
He's a fucking Billionaire who lives in a giant office building. I don't think getting shot by an armed robber is likely by any stretch of the imagination.

He's more likely to die from his shitty, unhealthy lifestyle then anything else at this point. Possibly complications from taking his pet Covid treatment or Covid itself if he catches it.
 
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Sneed's SeednFeed

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He's a fucking Billionaire who lives in a giant office building. I don't think getting shot by an armed robber is likely by any stretch of the imagination.

He's more likely to die from his shitty, unhealthy lifestyle then anything else at this point. Possibly complications from taking his pet Covid treatment or Covid itself if he catches it.
He does have amazing health insurance whilst he's POTUS. Who the hell would want Pence in charge?
 

Buyetyen

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But the guy also displays amazing raw courage.
Bluster is not courage any more than a dog barking is courageous. Trump's bellicose nature is born out of his screaming insecurities. If he's not dominating other people, then they are dominating him. What you interpret as courage is actually informed by existential terror and insecurity. Trump however lacks the self-awareness to analyze and consider this part of himself, so he simply projects all of his insecurities onto whoever he's trying to tear down.
 

Avnger

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So...the atlantic just put out an article criticizing Trump for literally not being "manly" enough. I guess, if being manly is good, toxic masculinity is not real. I knew I was doing the right thing in being myself and not being unmanly for fears it'll cause toxic on my friends (outside of the poison type ones and steel type ones anyhow). Huzzah!

(they literally praise :“toughness, dominance, self-reliance, heterosexual behaviors, restriction of emotional expression and the avoidance of traditionally feminine attitudes and behaviors.” )



I find this incredibly amusing, but I still thing it is more dumb than it is amusing.


Thoughts? Comments? Funny pokemon jokes?
 

Avnger

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Bluster is not courage any more than a dog barking is courageous. Trump's bellicose nature is born out of his screaming insecurities. If he's not dominating other people, then they are dominating him. What you interpret as courage is actually informed by existential terror and insecurity. Trump however lacks the self-awareness to analyze and consider this part of himself, so he simply projects all of his insecurities onto whoever he's trying to tear down.

I'm often reminded of this quote:

"Trump is a poor man's idea of a rich man, a weak man's idea of a strong man, and a stupid man's idea of a smart man."
 

Agema

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But the guy also displays amazing raw courage. He took on the establishment against all odds with so many powerful resources all arrayed against him.
I don't think it was brave, it's just his element. He's born and bred one of the elites, a billionaire businessman, and a TV personality. He might be an outsider specifically to politics, but he's not an outsider to power, money, public relations, and mixing with the upper classes. It's brave for the likes of you and me to step into that world, it's far less so for people brought up to believe they are the lords and masters of the country, and lived and breathed rarified circles for decades. After that, he has his screaming insecurity to feed.

He always had a parachute if things looked like he wouldn't win: just cut and run with an excuse about a great new TV contract or whatever. Of course, the rumour exists he started his run for publicity and to negotiate a bigger paycheque - he just stuck at it when it was turning out unexpectedly well.

Trump is a lot of things but to call him cowardly and liken him to an incel or beta male just seems off the mark by far.
If there's one thing Trump assuredly isn't, it's an incel. He's spent his life trying to fuck virtually every woman who'd take her pants off for him, and - unfortunately in terms of those sexual assault allegations - also several who wouldn't. As for alpha/beta, I personally consider that to be a load of meaningless drivel so I don't care to comment.
 

gorfias

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I don't think it was brave, it's just his element. He's born and bred one of the elites, a billionaire businessman, and a TV personality. He might be an outsider specifically to politics, but he's not an outsider to power, money, public relations, and mixing with the upper classes. It's brave for the likes of you and me to step into that world, it's far less so for people brought up to believe they are the lords and masters of the country, and lived and breathed rarified circles for decades. After that, he has his screaming insecurity to feed.

He always had a parachute if things looked like he wouldn't win: just cut and run with an excuse about a great new TV contract or whatever. Of course, the rumour exists he started his run for publicity and to negotiate a bigger paycheque - he just stuck at it when it was turning out unexpectedly well.



If there's one thing Trump assuredly isn't, it's an incel. He's spent his life trying to fuck virtually every woman who'd take her pants off for him, and - unfortunately in terms of those sexual assault allegations - also several who wouldn't. As for alpha/beta, I personally consider that to be a load of meaningless drivel so I don't care to comment.
Your write that Trump, going on stage with a dozen more experienced people than himself and beating them soundly, is due to him being in his element. Do you think one is born into that element? Can it be taught? I know I'd find the situation intimidating.
 

SupahEwok

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Your write that Trump, going on stage with a dozen more experienced people than himself and beating them soundly, is due to him being in his element. Do you think one is born into that element? Can it be taught? I know I'd find the situation intimidating.
As I recall, he didn't beat anybody in a reasoned debate, he mostly just yelled and stirred up populist rhetoric. I could win a debate as well if I didn't have to worry about looking smarter and could just make fun of my opponents.

Edit: and something to bear in mind is that every single person on a presidential debate stage has an immense support team for research into issues, creating policy proposals, and coaching on successful debate tactics. That includes Trump. These are advantages the likes of us commons could never dream of having the money to afford. That is just one of many things the elites have over the plebian masses, and it's something that, once again, makes Trump far more like the establishment than unlike.
 
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Sneed's SeednFeed

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Your write that Trump, going on stage with a dozen more experienced people than himself and beating them soundly, is due to him being in his element. Do you think one is born into that element? Can it be taught? I know I'd find the situation intimidating.
'Beating' in what sense though? In terms of becoming president? You'd also be surprised how far intimidation goes and how little 'debate strategies' actually matter in politics, considering the electorate always have the option of voting just cause they find his behaviour funny, not that it's logical, useful or in any way conducive to a conversation. People have that freedom, and Trump makes use of it for the sake of getting voted in. In terms of talking shit to people who know more than him at press events, that also doesn't take bravery or skill, it takes not caring.
 

Agema

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Your write that Trump, going on stage with a dozen more experienced people than himself and beating them soundly, is due to him being in his element. Do you think one is born into that element? Can it be taught? I know I'd find the situation intimidating.
I don't think people are "born" to it as such, i.e. genes.

But I think people raised to believe they are superior and used to mixing with the elites find it far easier to do so than us plebs. There's a school in the UK called Eton, famous for lots of its pupils doing extremely well. In terms of the grades it gets, however, it's not better than lots of other schools. So why do they excel? It's not because they're more talented, I suspect. It's because they are the children of the rich and powerful, and raised to believe in themselves as the rich and powerful, that it's their right, and their place in the world. Because they've always mixed with the rich and powerful from the moment they took they first breath, it's a lifetime of experience of knowing the right dos and don'ts. Confidence, I guess, or at least a very good simulation of it. (That and having all those upper class connections: "it's not what you know but who you know", etc.)

These other schools with similar scholastic attainment, their parents are doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc. These kids are raised mixing with the middle classes, with middle class expectations of a good, reliable, upper-middle salary, because that's their experience and their comfort zone. So that's where the output of those schools tend to aim.

In terms of public speaking, that's largely a learnt skill, although people may have varying levels of aptitude even despite experience. Someone used to playing to an audience should be fine on many different stages. And to give Trump some credit, if he has a skill, it's sensing what people want and trying to manipulate them. Trump won in many ways by being bad at conventional political debate. Traditionally, they go up with what they hope are good policies and beliefs and defend them, mixed with crowd-pleasing. Trump went up and just bellowed lowest common denominator platitudes and abuse, and flew on the anti-establishment zeitgeist and debased tone of political conversation. He'd probably have crashed and burned just 8 years previously with the same tactics.
 
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Worgen

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Your write that Trump, going on stage with a dozen more experienced people than himself and beating them soundly, is due to him being in his element. Do you think one is born into that element? Can it be taught? I know I'd find the situation intimidating.
No, trump is a showman, hes always been one, the biggest promoter of trump has always been himself. He beat more experienced candidates by playing up his strengths of appealing to very simple ideas, not having any real policies and just saying we will make america great again without explaining at all what that means. He ran as a populist and that is the easiest way to win, claim to be an outsider and just mock your opponents instead of engaging them and win that way. If anything he showed us that debates don't matter, you don't need to have a better policy position or better augments, you just need to meme on your opponent and you can win. He has never been able to back up anything he supports, he just says he can then changes the subject or rage quits.
 
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MrCalavera

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If you want the actual biblical perspective, you could compare Trump to Zacchaeus. Someone with an awful record of sin, given opportunity by Jesus to make amends for his copious wrongs, and then the self-righteous in the crowd indignantly protested that someone so sucky should be given that opportunity.
I'm not familiar, but did Zacchaeus plead to do better? And who would Jesus be in that metaphor?
 

tstorm823

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I'm not familiar, but did Zacchaeus plead to do better? And who would Jesus be in that metaphor?
Zaccheaus did plead to do better, and claimed he would give half his belongings to the poor. And that sounds sort of nice and redemptive, but since he theoretically hustled up his riches by taking off the top from money he was hired to pass back to the militant Roman authorities, half isn't terribly extreme, and Jesus doesn't actually wait around to see if he goes through with it. The moral of the story isn't the Zaccheaus turned his life around, so much as just that he always had the chance to, no matter how much the less sinful people resented him.

In Biblical lessons, Jesus is almost always the stand-in for how you are to behave. You are meant to follow the example, in this case not counting out the sinner and instead treating all people as children of God. If you'd like to apply that to Evangelical acceptance of Trump, it's them looking past his sins in the hope of redemptive actions. Of course, his present sins sort of break that imagery a bit...