That game encumbrance article got me thinking...

[Eacaraxe]

You know, if this was about three days ago I probably would have agreed. I've been playing a lot of Valheim, and yeah encumbrance (or at least, as-implemented) is a PITA on it. It's not without its point, though, and it's a sticky topic to work around.

So, what's happened in the past three days with me, no one is asking? Well, I started a Morrowind playthrough. My first one since...god, at least since Skyrim came out. More specifically, I started a Breton "walking howitzer" build, my own little tweak on the battlemage where I picked up long blade instead of axe, illusion instead of conjuration, and ditched mysticism and marksman for block and resto.

And of course, forgot heavy armor is heavy. And that encumbrance impacts movement speed on a percentage, rather than being all-or-nothing. And that you get to Balmora by going southeast from Seyda Neen rather than north. So i ended up having to fight Fjol on the road at level 3, which was a real pain in the ass, and ended up at Caldera instead of Balmora after a three-hour slog through the swamp and mountains.

It's been a learning experience on how much you can forget about a twenty-year-old game, I'll give it that. So when I ended up saying "oh, screw it" and went to get the Fists of Randagulf after a diligent check to make sure Corprus Boi only spawns during the relevant quest lest I sequence break on accident. Fists give one of the best constant effect Strength bonuses available early on, and I needed that 20 extra Strength just to avoid waddling my way around Vvardenfell like a complete effing prat, taking an hour or more to make it to locations that should be taking ten to fifteen.

Cave took two hours to clear at level 7. Every fight was tough as hell, as I was barely prepared for it getting ash slaves and ash zombies as enemies atop the usual scamps and skeletons, and I was barely scraping through on low health with barely enough magicka and fatigue to make it through the next fight. You might be asking why I wasn't just resting at that point, but it was at this point the Dark Brotherhood decided to say hello, and I had to deal with an assassin every time I tried.

Nothing like that feeling of being halfway through a cave and beginning to wonder if you didn't just screw yourself so badly you might have to reroll, just because of a bad judgment call and biting off more than you can chew. But by the end of it I had my shiny gauntlets, and a few sets of DB armor to sell at earliest convenience. And all that just so I could run the teeniest, tiniest bit faster than I could before.

And if I didn't have to worry about encumbrance, none of it would have happened and I wouldn't have remembered why Morrowind is still the gold standard for CRPG/immersive sims.

 

[CriticalGaming]

My biggest problem with encumberence is when it applies to your entire inventory in games like Skyrim or any game with crafting systems. Because what it ultimately ends up doing is forces the player to ignore piece of the game entirely.

Either you make exploring less enticing or you make the crafting system less enticing. Because your weight system will limit which of these gameplay aspects the player can engage with. And in the end they are going to choice whichever is less of a hassle.

And that is the rub at the end of the day. At what point does your emersive system become a hassle? When it reaches that point you will either lose the player completely or they will simply ignore that portion of the game.

I think that is something that players and developers need to come to terms with. The realism of a gameworld can only go so far until it becomes annoying. Red Dead 2 has very realistic animal skinning animation, but after your 15th animal you will wish you can skip it. Weight is one of those ideas that sounds good and makes sense to most players in the begining but there will always come a point where it becomes frustrating.

Imo i think there are simply some things we can do without in order to make gameplay more enjoyable.

 

[laggyteabag]

Encumbrance is a great idea, that has sadly been soured by Bethesda's implementation from Oblivion onward.

The issue with this approach is that it simply does not create any interesting gameplay choices. Once you are over encumbered, you just cannot move. This means that your only interaction with the system is purely out of frustration and annoyance, as you spend minutes digging through your inventory, trying to find the perfect item(s) to drop, so that you can get below the arbitrary threshold.

When I play games with limited inventories, or carry weight capacities, I usually just mod it out, because I just cannot be bothered with interacting with it.

The idea though, is perfectly sound. The heavier you are/the more equipment you carry, the worse you get at certain actions. This is a cool concept, and I can see a lot of great applications in games.

One idea that I like, that you allude to, is heavy armour being heavy. Whilst im not a fan of the movement speed penalty that you mentioned, especially in an open-world game, where navigating the environment is often already tedious enough without a movement speed penalty, I wouldnt mind seeing this affect the player in combat scenarios. Maybe with a restricted dodge/evade, or limited stamina for blocking or attacking - whereas lighter armour would be better in these scenarios, but obviously with less protection.

Another example that I like is Mass Effect 3's/Andromeda's approach, where the more guns you bring, and the stronger those guns are, the heavier you will be, which reduces your ability to use your biotic/tech abilities (read - Space Magic). So, you could bring a full loadout of heavy assault rifles, shotguns and sniper rifles, but restrict your ability uses to once every blue moon, or you could bring something really light and piddly, and pop off your abilities every couple of seconds.

A unique example is actually Call of Duty multiplayer's Pick system, which tends to appear in the Treyarch games. In these games, you are free to create your multiplayer loadout, but you have a limited amount of points. You can use these points to pick a primary weapon, secondary weapon, weapon attachments, grenades, and perks. You can opt to forgo an item - like deciding not to have a pistol - and use that extra point to have an extra attachment on your primary weapon, or have an additional perk. I think this is a really interesting system, that I wish more games would adopt, because then you are encouraged to pick less optimal choices in some categories, in favour of gaining an advantage in another.

Ultimately, I think that the restrictions that are placed on a player, can often be just as interesting as giving the player literally all of the tools - if not moreso. I would love to see more gameplay mechanics that the player can choose to engage with, that offer drawbacks, instead of just pure benefits - which often results in a "best option".

 

[sXeth]

One idea that I like, that you allude to, is heavy armour being heavy. Whilst im not a fan of the movement speed penalty that you mentioned, especially in an open-world game, where navigating the environment is often already tedious enough without a movement speed penalty, I wouldnt mind seeing this affect the player in combat scenarios. Maybe with a restricted dodge/evade, or limited stamina for blocking or attacking - whereas lighter armour would be better in these scenarios, but obviously with less protection.

Yeah, the major problem with encumbrance is that you typically have hard static thresholds... that don't make sense. Carry 60 iron bars and you're fine, but then that 0.01 feather makes you half speed (or 0 speed as the case may be).


If you have to really put that kind of hard threshold on, then using inventory space rather then weight typically works better. And gives you some oppurtunities to expand it as well.



I would say generally... stamina doesn't need to exist outside of combat or specific challenge scenarios. I can't think of a single game, even exploration based, where expending stamina on simple traversal has added anything other then an annoying up/down pace while travelling.


Heavy armour I think could have its own limitations and drawbacks. Like you can't draw a bow, or if you try to cast spells it takes much longer to perform the motions. Or restricting dodging maneuvers as noted. Armour encumbrance by weight Iss kind of like weapon durability, if your armour is designed properly.... its meant to be worn. It won't be nearly as awkward and encumbering when worn as it would if you put the same weight in a backpack you're wearing.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

A unique example is actually Call of Duty multiplayer's Pick system, which tends to appear in the Treyarch games. In these games, you are free to create your multiplayer loadout, but you have a limited amount of points. You can use these points to pick a primary weapon, secondary weapon, weapon attachments, grenades, and perks. You can opt to forgo an item - like deciding not to have a pistol - and use that extra point to have an extra attachment on your primary weapon, or have an additional perk. I think this is a really interesting system, that I wish more games would adopt, because then you are encouraged to pick less optimal choices in some categories, in favour of gaining an advantage in another.

This is tons of fun and one of the main reasons that I liked Black Ops 3's multiplayer so much.

My favorite class was loading up on perks and not having a primary weapon or any weapon attachments, just a pistol secondary. Then the first person I killed with the pistol I would take their weapon and boom, instant OP setup.

 

[Eacaraxe]

Either you make exploring less enticing or you make the crafting system less enticing. Because your weight system will limit which of these gameplay aspects the player can engage with. And in the end they are going to choice whichever is less of a hassle.

This is one thing I felt Morrowind did very well, too. At least, in the aspects of crafting that are there -- enchantment and alchemy. It's entirely possible to make a character that can breeze through the entire game's content without wearing armor with savvy enchantment choices, although it deprives you of equipment slots that could (paradoxically) be used to provide more enchantment. Generally speaking, it's a good idea to wear at least light armor all the same simply for the benefit of extra enchantments -- and the added weight is negligible, at least by midgame.

Alchemy's where it shines through, and answers your point. Alchemy ingredients have weight, and some of the more desirable ingredients have pretty hefty weight. Alchemy potions have a weight equal to the average of their ingredients, so you can cut weight by mixing potions on the fly and carrying them with you instead of raw ingredients (they usually sell better anyway).

I would say generally... stamina doesn't need to exist outside of combat or specific challenge scenarios. I can't think of a single game, even exploration based, where expending stamina on simple traversal has added anything other then an annoying up/down pace while travelling.

Morrowind actually does just that, by the way. Fatigue in Morrowind works more like fatigue in Daggerfall, albeit more forgiving (it's actually possible to die from fatigue in Daggerfall), rather than the later two games in the series. That being, it's a larger derived stat pool that restores itself slowly over time, and quickly when resting. The catch is, fatigue factors in as a coefficient for practically every calculation in the game. To the point that if your character is exhausted, they won't even be able to barter or persuade NPC's effectively.

So in combat, if you've blown your fatigue running, jumping, or any other traversal act, when you do run into a mob you won't be able to hit, defend, cast spells, or deal damage as effectively as you otherwise could. Worse is when you run into an enemy using hand to hand at an effective level, or casting spells or using powers that damage fatigue. Taking fatigue damage when you're already out of it forces your character to collapse helpless to the ground, giving enemies opportunities to deal free damage.

And if you're heavily encumbered, guess what costs more fatigue to do.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Yeah, get annoying looting a dungeon in Skyrim and struggling to carry all the stuff. I remember looting that crashed ship and waddling all the way back to the city on the top of the cliff cause it's my treasure. I remember Vampires attacking a city and me having to quickly throw lots of random junk on the ground so I could run off and fight them and then the guards being angry at me for leaving weapons around. I remember having 5 or so companions using a mod, getting in the way in the tunnels and then still not having enough inventory space for all the loot (and them sometimes wanting to use stuff I was keeping to resell instead of the gear I wanted them to use).

Nethergate has each of your 4 players have a weight limit (tied to strength), but also an item limit as well (in addition to one helmet, one set of gloves etc that you are wearing). For some reason that seemed much less annoying, though still ended up leaving a lot of low value loot behind, and dropping random shirts that spawned due to magic thingy.

 

[laggyteabag]

Yeah, get annoying looting a dungeon in Skyrim and struggling to carry all the stuff. I remember looting that crashed ship and waddling all the way back to the city on the top of the cliff cause it's my treasure. I remember Vampires attacking a city and me having to quickly throw lots of random junk on the ground so I could run off and fight them and then the guards being angry at me for leaving weapons around. I remember having 5 or so companions using a mod, getting in the way in the tunnels and then still not having enough inventory space for all the loot (and them sometimes wanting to use stuff I was keeping to resell instead of the gear I wanted them to use).

Yeah, this the issue with Bethesda's system.

The default carry capacity is just so low, where your inability to loot an entire dungeon is always an issue - even with upgrades. And there isn't an interesting vanilla solution. You either abandon loot, or you backtrack out of the cave, fast-travel to a vendor to sell all of your junk, then fast-travel back, and backtrack to where you were. Wow. Entertaining.

I've always liked the way Torchlight handles this. If you are unfamiliar, Torchlight is a Diablo clone, so loot is spewing everywhere, and most of it is just vendor-trash.

In Torchlight, you have an adorable pet that you can load full of all of the junk that you have collected, and you can send it back to the vendor to sell it all, for you.

I feel like this is just the ultimate solution, because it removes so much unnecessary downtime, and allows the player to almost constantly be engaged with the actual meat and potatoes of the experience, instead of constantly needing to wander around a town.

 

[Zykon TheLich]

When it comes to Skyrim oblivion etc I just download a bag of holding mod. It works thematically and it still keeps your carrying capacity, you can just dump excess into the bag. You can loot to your heart's content but the feel of having to be a bit more choosy with what you carry for combat is still there.

Weight in Skyrim etc was always a bit off too. Why the hell does an elven sword weigh twice as much as iron? I can see the sense in having a bit of weight variation but the way Skyrim etc do by basically making higher level equipment loads heavier is fucking stupid.

Otherwise I did like the fact that it was there.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Weight in Skyrim etc was always a bit off too. Why the hell does an elven sword weigh twice as much as iron? I can see the sense in having a bit of weight variation but the way Skyrim etc do by basically making higher level equipment loads heavier is fucking stupid.

Oh, and you can increase the weight of things by crafting, have noticed this happen when you make leather and it weighs more than the hides/pelts it was made from.

But, dunno why, I just can't get into Skyrim. End up looking for new mods to make it interesting, and even if they do work, get bored again pretty soon.

 

[deleted20220709]

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[Zykon TheLich]

Oh, and you can increase the weight of things by crafting, have noticed this happen when you make leather and it weighs more than the hides/pelts it was made from.

But, dunno why, I just can't get into Skyrim. End up looking for new mods to make it interesting, and even if they do work, get bored again pretty soon.

Lol yeah, forgot about that.

I have the opposite problem. I end up having to uninstall and delete all my downloaded mods every so often to stop wasting so much time on it. The pain of redownloading and installing them all again serves as a decent deterrent.

 

[laggyteabag]

I think Fallout 76 solved it as neatly as can be done within the limitations of Bethesda's systems. In Fo76 being over encumbered stops you from sprinting and drains action points while you run, so you can decide to just grab some more spare guns and office fans but you need to make the trade off that APs are pretty nice to have in fights (and if you're not using VATs or AP costing perks like Dodgy just load up more!). Nothing is stopping you from resting every 15-20 seconds and then running along some more. You only get properly immobilized when you carry something ridiculous like 6 times your maximum carry weight, so a lot of players just opt to never sprint and stay over encumbered most of the time.

This sounds better, but still not great.

My issue with encumbrance impacting movement speed, goes back to my initial post. Open world games are usually tedious enough to navigate as they are, and they last thing that they need is some kind of movement-speed penalty, or sprint restriction to go on top of that.

I just wish that Bethesda revisits this mechanic, because their implementation sounds like it just causes frustration.

I have the opposite problem. I end up having to uninstall and delete all my downloaded mods every so often to stop wasting so much time on it. The pain of redownloading and installing them all again serves as a decent deterrent.

See, I've done this too, but the issue that I then end up having is thinking to myself that I need to give Fallout New Vegas another shot - I install it, download the Nexus Mod Manager, download about 3 pages worth of mods, spend an entire day getting it to a state that Im happy with... then deciding that I just can't be bothered, and I uninstall it again.

I have done this about... 3 times?

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

On this issue I’ve defaulted to a position that the illusion starts showing cracks when any game allowing the player to magically store a shitton of stuff slaps a weight limit on it all. This basically means RPGs simply shouldn’t have weight limits, or find a more compelling way to implement that as a mechanic. Why not have a delivery system where anything that can’t reasonably be stored on your person (ie extra swords, armor, sniper rifles, those few dozen ore chunks, etc.) or in your “bag” is brought to a safe house/storage chest/camp loot tent/etc. It could be flown there in the clutches of some flying creature you befriended, by drone, teleported there, whatever. It could work in any genre, time period, etc. and would just need to make thematic sense, but should also incur a small time penalty or transport resources before usage so not to be abused.

It would make the player think about what they equip more, develop a bond with their gear, learn to ration items. You wouldn’t be locked out of anything, but it would add significance to a part of gameplay that’s usually taken for granted as an afterthought.

 

[Agema]

My issue with encumbrance impacting movement speed, goes back to my initial post. Open world games are usually tedious enough to navigate as they are, and they last thing that they need is some kind of movement-speed penalty, or sprint restriction to go on top of that.

Have a fast travel function, and let it work even when encumbered. Sure, you may have to clear out the dungeon without running, but you don't have to crawl across the terrain. The system can just add extra travel time on as well so 2 days pass instead of 12 hours.

I suppose the issue with encumbrance is usually about economics: carting every last bit of tat back to the shops. My sort of feeling is that the economy of games is a crock of shit. You spend the early game struggling to nab any item you can to sell and hope to buy some nice kit from shops, and then at some point you eventually realise you're richer than the eight biggest landowners in the realm put together and have nothing to spend it on. You should have crashed the steel economy of the realm by flooding it with so much daedric and dragonbone that kids in slums can afford magic glass knives just to scrape the muck from under their toenails.

I find encumbrance not half so annoying as ending up leader of the fighter's guild, mage guild, thieves' guild, twine-twister's guild, general of the king's armies, lord high pooh-bah of 8 satrapies with a townhouse in every city, imperial spymaster, ambassador to dragonkin, and yet spend my days roaming the hills killing ogres and picking up mushrooms. Pick one fucking day job and stick with it. And I don't care if I did save the mage guild from the uber-lich, if I did it by repeatedly hitting said lich with a sword because I can barely cast a fireball powerful enough to light a candle, I should not be given the penthouse suite in the Grand High ArchTower of Magickal Puissance and made chairman of its council. Not least because of just how stupid it is to be Prime Lord Mega-Awesome having your missions given and explained to you by rank and file peons because that's just how utterly clueless you are.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

...and then at some point you eventually realise you're richer than the eight biggest landowners in the realm put together and have nothing to spend it on.

I was gonna say this myself. Especially in Elder Scrolls games, where the merchants have limited amounts of money, so you have to spend your time going from town to town to talking mudcrab in order to sell all that crap you collected. And it never takes long for money to become nothing more than a useless number on your inventory screen, since merchants never have anything more than low-level crap that can't hold a candle to those world-ending magical artifacts you went into the dungeons for in the first place.

 

[Agema]

I was gonna say this myself. Especially in Elder Scrolls games, where the merchants have limited amounts of money, so you have to spend your time going from town to town to talking mudcrab in order to sell all that crap you collected. And it never takes long for money to become nothing more than a useless number on your inventory screen, since merchants never have anything more than low-level crap that can't hold a candle to those world-ending magical artifacts you went into the dungeons for in the first place.

I'm feeling a bit ranty, and I also want to protest the very concept of walking round with 100,000 gps. Have they not considered how much that weighs? Or even the fact that gold is, y'know, rare? If a short sword costs 189 gps (not unlike some games), you're handing over enough gold to make a gold shortsword.

 

[Gordon_4]

Encumbrance is an unnecessary concession to reality in games which don’t need it. It can fuck off, or be relegated to some kind of hardcore/challenge mode.

 

[Satinavian]

What i kind of is keeping encumberance but moving all the loot/crafting materials to some seperate stash that does not count towards it. So encumberance basically becomes about your loadout and usable items only. The rest ist just assumed to be stored away in your hold or kept on pack animals or whatever.

 

[laggyteabag]