8 People Killed In Atlanta Massage Parlor Shootings

Kwak

Elite Member
Sep 11, 2014
2,210
1,716
118
Country
4
But apparently people are rather determined to have this claimed as a racial hate crime they just can't let it go for some reason (likely extreme partisanship)
Why are you so against it being racism-based? You think it's a smear campaign on racists and you're offended on behalf of all the racists, or racism is a myth or something?
If it's not racism it's misogyny.
Or is that another 'narrative' only us unthinking sheep will believe unlike brave freethinkers such as yourself?
 

Dwarvenhobble

Is on the Gin
May 26, 2020
5,943
654
118
Why are you so against it being racism-based? You think it's a smear campaign on racists and you're offended on behalf of all the racists, or racism is a myth or something?
If it's not racism it's misogyny.
Or is that another 'narrative' only us unthinking sheep will believe unlike brave freethinkers such as yourself?
I'm not.
I'm for actually having evidence.
 

Dwarvenhobble

Is on the Gin
May 26, 2020
5,943
654
118
But seriously, why?
Because it's a very nice narrative to try and stoke racial divides to go "See see the white people just want to kill anyone different to them" which leads idiots to go "Well we better get in first" or worse "I felt scared so reacted" which then gets used to stoke divides further.
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
5,345
3,153
118
Country
United States of America
Because it's a very nice narrative to try and stoke racial divides to go "See see the white people just want to kill anyone different to them" which leads idiots to go "Well we better get in first" or worse "I felt scared so reacted" which then gets used to stoke divides further.
What do you think would be accomplished without division that you are so worried about it?
 

Dwarvenhobble

Is on the Gin
May 26, 2020
5,943
654
118
Most of his victims were Asian women and according to a Korean news outlet, a witness heard him screaming that he was going to kill all Asians.
Well the FBI, the arresting Sheriffs and the Killer themselves have so far claimed it wasn't. I'm guessing the FBI would have got CCTV and spoken to witnesses present so it could just be the Korean news network reporting based on what some tool on social media was saying or something.
 

Cicada 5

Elite Member
Apr 16, 2015
2,570
1,221
118
Country
Nigeria
Well the FBI, the arresting Sheriffs and the Killer themselves have so far claimed it wasn't. I'm guessing the FBI would have got CCTV and spoken to witnesses present so it could just be the Korean news network reporting based on what some tool on social media was saying or something.
Well killers can lie and cops can make mistakes.

Considering none of the people he murdered have thus far been proven to have even had any connection to sex work, the narrative that he is a racist seems very believable.
 

Dwarvenhobble

Is on the Gin
May 26, 2020
5,943
654
118
Well killers can lie and cops can make mistakes.

Considering none of the people he murdered have thus far been proven to have even had any connection to sex work, the narrative that he is a racist seems very believable.
Yes killers can but the true ones killing on racial grounds tend to want everyone to know they were killing on racial grounds to try and add fuel to the fire of some big race war thing they seem to want to happen.
 

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Sep 16, 2014
8,360
6,875
118
Country
United States
Yes killers can but the true ones killing on racial grounds tend to want everyone to know they were killing on racial grounds to try and add fuel to the fire of some big race war thing they seem to want to happen.
Shockingly, you can be violently racist without consciously trying to start a race war. For example, assuming elderly Koreans running spas are sex workers and killing them when they don't give you a happy ending.
 

Dwarvenhobble

Is on the Gin
May 26, 2020
5,943
654
118
Shockingly, you can be violently racist without consciously trying to start a race war. For example, assuming elderly Koreans running spas are sex workers and killing them when they don't give you a happy ending.
Two problems
1) We don't know the age of the victims I don't think.
2) We don't know he wasn't given a happy ending ever.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
6,558
930
118
Country
USA
Because it's a very nice narrative to try and stoke racial divides to go "See see the white people just want to kill anyone different to them" which leads idiots to go "Well we better get in first" or worse "I felt scared so reacted" which then gets used to stoke divides further.
To be fair, I don't think the more controversial takes on this event are a product of people trying to stoke racial tensions. I think this is very much still just downstream of irrational Trump hatred, and actual racism to an extent. There's a year of context leading up to this moment that you have to understand to make sense of certain reactions.

Let's start with this: As feared, hate crimes against Asian Americans rose sharply during the pandemic. To be clear up front, I don't think that in itself is an irrational thing to worry about. A pandemic emerges from China, irrational people might avoid or attack Chinese Americans as a consequence, that's a reasonable thing to worry about. That's not the framing though. "They have heard the messages around China as the cause of the virus, and then they target somebody because they perceive that person to be from that place... The recent trend of anti-Asian American hate crimes has been fueled by political rhetoric during the pandemic, including labeling of COVID-19 as the “Chinese virus” or “Kung-flu.”

This is where Trump comes in: they skip straight past the "virus from China fuels resentment of people from China" to "people talking about it coming from China are the root cause". But like, it came from China, everyone knows it, why is talking about that the real issue? Because Trump. It was the Chinese virus for months. The news called it that, the politicians called it that, the original subreddit to talk about it was r/chinavirus. None of that was to be racist or xenophobic, racists and xenophobes aren't typically worried about epidemics in foreign countries, and it was an epidemic in China. It's not an appropriate term now that it's a global epidemic, but that's a change in circumstances. The other thing that changed is Trump said it. And the moment Trump said it, it became the blame-Trump game. On March 18th, Trump was defending his use of the phrase "Chinese virus". On March 19th, Asian-American advocacy groups opened a call line for reporting anti-Asian harassment during the pandemic. That's not coincidence. I'm not saying it's a conspiracy, just that one day the news was predicting Trump would cause a rise in hate crimes, and the next day people started trying to collect evidence of it.

Flipping back to the first link, the retrospective on the rise in hate crimes, that piece did the rounds very recently. Those people initially studying and reporting the increase in anti-Asian crimes were good and responsible. Even if they blamed political rhetoric, even if they likely believed in their hearts that Trump was to blame, they didn't say that. But unfortunately, discussions on the internet are rarely based off of the source material, news sites weren't inclined to be as responsible, and there is no shortage of people willing to say things like "I think the political leadership under Trump really put a target on the backs of people perceived to be Chinese. It's Sinophobia." So now we have first two voices in the conversation: the objective reporting and the Trump-blamers.

Then enters the third voice: the backlashers. This group includes loyal Trumpers defending his name, media skeptics who want to doubt whatever is being said, and a handful of people who actually look through the source materials. The thing they all have in common is they're not blaming Trump or white supremacy. If you dig into the sources, they don't blame Trump. Even the ones blaming politics, even the ones I believe set out initially to blame Trump, they don't blame Trump like the media did. Why? Because it's runs counter to the facts. The only mention of Trump reported from that call line is someone saying "Well, go die in Wuhan, China, the origin of the
coronavirus and take Trump with you! B*TCH!” One of their examples of hatred was a college professor from the DC suburbs saying "China Virus" online. And like, they also had people spit at in Texas and other events from Trump country, but the rational response to reading that report is that hatred knows no political boundaries. If you dig into the crime statistics showing the increase in hate crimes, you find most of that increase is from New York, California, or other Democratic strongholds. Perfectly reasonable people look at that and say "how can you blame Trump's rhetoric for crimes committed by people who hate him?" More problematically though, if you dig into the list of hate crimes, you find a lot of the perpetrators are black.

Enter voice number 4: the actual racists. There are, in fact, horrible horrible racists on the internet who reveled in the idea that black people were the problem, and brought it up at every opportunity. The extra problem is that people without a dog in the fight often leave a debate behind once they feel they have a good understanding of the issue, so the more time that passed, the more the arguments were just group 2 using hate crimes to push their attack politics and group 4 using statistics to push their racism. There was a two week space between these articles about anti-Asian crime and the shooting, and by the days immediately preceding the shooting, places like twitter and reddit were full of conversations that basically went as such:
"Activist": "F Trump and White Supremacists for attacking Asian Americans like this!"
Racist: "The crimes are all committed by black people though."
"Activist": "You're a racist"
Racist: "no u"
Etc.

And then this tragedy happens. I don't have any reason to believe the internet arguments have any bearing on the shooting, I'm only trying to explain people's reactions to the event. Because the way people have reacted to a mass shooting doesn't make sense in a vacuum. It doesn't make sense that people would declare him a white supremacists within hours and seemingly celebrate the event. It doesn't make sense that people would be so ready to embrace a killer's claim that sex addiction made them do it. Those aren't how people act in a vacuum. That is how people act when they had already been having the same argument for 2 weeks. When you start posting headlines like "Shooting result of Trump's rhetoric, you pull back in all the people who left the argument earlier. The people who couldn't blame Trump with the information they had, and the Trump defenders who know the data counters that narrative, all the reasonable people are pulled back into the fight, but it's already reached a point where only extreme positions remain, and suddenly reasonable people find themselves defending the indefensible.

So like, you look at some people's takes on this and wonder "how the hell did that person reach that conclusion", and I think the explanation is that they were just pulled into battle lines dominated by bad actors that have been forming for weeks or months prior to the shooting.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dwarvenhobble

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
8,598
5,963
118
This is where Trump comes in:
I think you heavily underestimate the effect of "official endorsement" by the powerful and influential.

In some cases, people will perhaps be inclined to think things, but hold their expression in check because they also consider potential soecital disapproval. However, once they receive a signal that seems to validate their underlying thoughts, they will increasingly act them out in society. If Trump says China virus, so can you. Extreme views will also be emboldened, as they will not just pick up on cues of the powerful, but the increased acceptability of ideas amongst their peers.

That is of course how the USA ended up with what should have been the unthinkable: a mob storming the Capitol. Because Trump (and others) geed them up to it, to think it was an acceptable thing to do.

This is why politicians normally tend to be careful how they put things. It's also why many people liked Trump, because he wasn't careful: he gave voice to a great number of unpleasant attitudes people felt but would not voice because they feared disapproval.
 

happyninja42

Elite Member
Legacy
May 13, 2010
8,577
2,982
118
Well killers can lie and cops can make mistakes.

Considering none of the people he murdered have thus far been proven to have even had any connection to sex work, the narrative that he is a racist seems very believable.
I fail to see why those two things are somehow mutually exclusive. Even if they were sex workers, given how most people treat, and view sex workers as sub-human, the idea that on top of hating them for being sex workers, AND for being dirty asians, seems entirely plausible. I mean is it really that big of a stretch to see someone accusing them, in their head if nowhere else of bringing their filthy diseases over here, and infecting good, honest americans? No, it's not that big of a stretch, because we've already seen examples of people attacking asians and accusing them of bringing diseases over here in just the last year.
 

Cicada 5

Elite Member
Apr 16, 2015
2,570
1,221
118
Country
Nigeria
I fail to see why those two things are somehow mutually exclusive. Even if they were sex workers, given how most people treat, and view sex workers as sub-human, the idea that on top of hating them for being sex workers, AND for being dirty asians, seems entirely plausible. I mean is it really that big of a stretch to see someone accusing them, in their head if nowhere else of bringing their filthy diseases over here, and infecting good, honest americans? No, it's not that big of a stretch, because we've already seen examples of people attacking asians and accusing them of bringing diseases over here in just the last year.
I think there was a misunderstanding here. My argument was that he did go after them because they were Asian.

I do agree that even if they were sex workers they wouldn't be any less deserving of sympathy.
 

happyninja42

Elite Member
Legacy
May 13, 2010
8,577
2,982
118
I think there was a misunderstanding here. My argument was that he did go after them because they were Asian.

I do agree that even if they were sex workers they wouldn't be any less deserving of sympathy.
No I know what you mean, I just find the statement about "since there is no evidence they were sex workers, the racist angle seems legit" to be irrelevent. My only point, is that even if they were found to be sex workers, the fact that he targeted multiple asian owned businesses, makes the racial component pretty obvious. I just find it a nitpick that is pointless, like somehow implying that people are only bigots along individual components. "Well I hate asians, but sex workers are just fine", or vice versa.

I just find it way more likely that it's a mixture of the two, and some idiotic religious component as well, all melted together in his brain into a recipe for murder.
 

CriticalGaming

Elite Member
Legacy
Dec 28, 2017
10,911
5,440
118
Perhaps he was a racist?
And perhaps he wasn't and he was just fucked in the head?

Why do people WANT it to be race motivated? So they can just have an evil label to stand on some pretentious soapbox?

Are all the black kids assaulting old Asian people on the street also racist? Because I thought black people couldn't be racist because they don't have institutional power?

When white people do something, it's racist.

When PoC's do something, it's because of the struggle.



Maybe because the media and people keep using race as a thing, it is the reason why racism seems so rampent. It can't be "8 people shot in string of massage parlor shootings" No it has to be "8 ASIAN people shot in massage parlor shootings".

Whenever someone does something successful, or is a victim, race is ALWAYS a part of it. BLACK woman succeeds. Police shot BLACK drug dealer in exchange go wrong. They manipulate people with race baiting, because creating divides and false drama adds to the business that is the news and only further hurts the fight for equality for everyone. So long as they keep talking about race, racism will look worse than it really is.
 

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Sep 16, 2014
8,360
6,875
118
Country
United States
And perhaps he wasn't and he was just fucked in the head?

Why do people WANT it to be race motivated? So they can just have an evil label to stand on some pretentious soapbox?

Are all the black kids assaulting old Asian people on the street also racist? Because I thought black people couldn't be racist because they don't have institutional power?

When white people do something, it's racist.

When PoC's do something, it's because of the struggle.



Maybe because the media and people keep using race as a thing, it is the reason why racism seems so rampent. It can't be "8 people shot in string of massage parlor shootings" No it has to be "8 ASIAN people shot in massage parlor shootings".

Whenever someone does something successful, or is a victim, race is ALWAYS a part of it. BLACK woman succeeds. Police shot BLACK drug dealer in exchange go wrong. They manipulate people with race baiting, because creating divides and false drama adds to the business that is the news and only further hurts the fight for equality for everyone. So long as they keep talking about race, racism will look worse than it really is.
Yeah man, why would the fact that the dude targeted a specific subset of people based on race even matter, even though the dude targeted a specific subset of people based on race and ignored, say, strip clubs.

"If we all just *ignored* the racism, racism wouldn't exist" is a toddler's solution to problems.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Buyetyen