#1

mkline

New member
May 12, 2010
27
0
0
dogstile said:
So, Dr.Mark

Why is there always /one/ person that takes a game to seriously and flips out "because" of it?
dog--I wish it was only one person! It may be one person you know, but nationally, and internationally there are legions of people that flip out over each of the games. Its what makes the industry so vital and exciting and also what creates the risk of problems
 

Grigori361

New member
Apr 6, 2009
409
0
0
Personally, I see gaming much like any other generational medium of choice. It can be addictive certainly, but then so could cigarettes back in their golden age, however unlike cigarettes, there doesn't seem to be, Per Se a direct downside (like say lung cancer). The only real measure of addiction or not, would be the distress caused primarily to the person playing, NOT those around them.

This may not make sense initially to most people, allow me to endeavor to create a viable explanation on and of my point of view. This distress or, issue if you prefer that term, within my context, is a long term matter, as opposed to short term, for example.

Let's say you are a young teenage guy living with your parents, the issue of playing so much your parents make a fuss, and say cut off internet and computer access, and tell you your addicted and decide to get you "help". Doesn't actually mean anything worth paying attention to, No offense, but on average parents are just as likely to get it wrong as they are right.

However if you are lets say playing your game of choice to a such that you loose touch with those people, places, and things that you find valuable, or that in interferes with something you care about, or that you can't stop, or say play and do things like forget to eat on a daily basis.

That is an implication of addiction, personal opinions are not.

The reasoning behind this to put it simply is based on the definition of addiction, which is I believe : the state of being enslaved to a habit or practice or to something that is psychologically or physically habit-forming, as narcotics, to such an extent that its cessation causes severe trauma.

IN other words, does it hurt you, inconveniencing those around you is a pain in the ass for them, and if they are supplying your means of filling your desires, then it's totally their right to take it away, but that doesn't mean there's any validity to their claims.

It's all a matter of how it affects you, how does it impede you personally, if at all.


I think that should be sufficent for my explation... :p

For the record, while not addicted to video games, I am absolutely addicted to internet access.

:p
 

theultimateend

New member
Nov 1, 2007
3,621
0
0
Alar said:
Good to see someone come out and finally make the distinction about addiction being anything that can be pleasurable. To this end, I would assume even something as seemingly healthy as working out can be addictive, as it gives your body a naturally pleasing reaction (releasing endorphins into the brain, etc.).

I'm not entirely sure if I could classify myself as "addicted" to a single game. Am I addicted to the Internet and video games as a whole? Maybe, but it would take time for me to quantify those experiences and explain them logically.

Thanks for the article.
I found it more intriguing that he's one of the few people that defined Addiction properly.

I was disheartened after getting into Psychology to see how many people had made up their own definitions and were wielding them like law, some of which were people who should be smart enough not to be doing such.

That hallmark of it negatively impacting ones life is crucial, because if it isn't hurting you, it isn't an addiction. If that wasn't considered important than nearly all of our recreational activities would be addictions which would be just silly (and make the term pretty much useless).

There is barely anything different cognitively between an addict of meth and an addict of porn or video games. We just see that physical intake of a drug as what makes it suddenly a "real addiction".

As if the brain can only get addicted to things that travel at slower than light speed.

Daden said:
Gambling addiction, sex addiction, and internet addiction will all be included in the as-yet-unpublished DSM-V (the latter two in the appendix, I believe), which will be released sometime within the next three years. The DSM-V will replace the current DSM-IV criteria that you seem to be referring to, so I can understand your confusion to a degree. I'd just like to add that these newly-recognized addictions are not a "trend," and they are not going away any time soon. They come from evidence-based research into the brain that indicates addictive behaviors alter brain chemistry in the same way that addictive substances do.
Did you find yourself turning into a hypochondriac as you read the DSM? The further I dived into the book the more I began to respect psychologists who can properly diagnose people. Because every third page I was thinking "I've got that!" :p.

One of the few books from college that I still have on my shelf.
 

My1stLuvJak

New member
Jan 28, 2010
55
0
0
Lots of insightful comments on here.

I'm convinced that I suffer from OCD, as there are some habits I seem incapable of breaking (unless I REALLY think hard on it), like staying at work too late...or even compulsively reading comment threads and checking gaming websites more than regularly, when I could, oh, I dunno, actually be playing games!

I'm going to have to agree with "veloper": substance abuse and psychological addiction are in completely different ballparks. I know at least one person to commit suicide due to a relapse in drug abuse, but I've never known anything like that happening with a so-called videogame addiction...I'm sure it HAS happened, I just haven't seen it. This is coming from a guy who knew several people that played WOW regularly and stopped caring about their studies - I did something similar with emulated games.

However! There is a fine line between a correlation and a direct connection; does someone dropping out of school after playing WOW excessively mean that WOW is addictive? Or does it point to something else, some other possibly related problem?

I'll leave that up in the air. I just know that, like I said, substance abuse and psychological addiction are NOT the same thing! Even if new research comes out with lots of supporting evidence to the contrary, I will never buy it.
 

veloper

New member
Jan 20, 2009
4,597
0
0
Daden said:
What exactly is your background with regard to psychiatrics and mental health? I just graduated from a four-year nursing program and will be attending medical school shortly, so my information should be relatively current in an ever-evolving field.

Gambling addiction, sex addiction, and internet addiction will all be included in the as-yet-unpublished DSM-V (the latter two in the appendix, I believe), which will be released sometime within the next three years. The DSM-V will replace the current DSM-IV criteria that you seem to be referring to, so I can understand your confusion to a degree. I'd just like to add that these newly-recognized addictions are not a "trend," and they are not going away any time soon. They come from evidence-based research into the brain that indicates addictive behaviors alter brain chemistry in the same way that addictive substances do.
Nah, I'm just an anonymous guy with a handle, just like everybody else on an online forum. I don't put much stock in claims of expertise by other members either, not just because it's unverifiable, but mostly because the only thing that matters is the arguments themselves.

Normally I wouldn't get involved in this, but gaming addiction is part of the rhetoric of the anti-gaming lobby in the media and I hate to see it when the gaming community gives ground.

The problem isn't so much lumping other disorders in with addictions or substance dependence within psychiatry, rather it's the media who will go gaming=crack, it's now(2013) official, on us.

The lobby cannot do anything with an "impulse control disorder" or other jargon, but a broader definition of addiction is just perfect ammo. That's the power of words, when people hear "addict" they associate the word with a heroin or crack junkie.

Maybe if I get into an argument about it again in the future, I'll counter with shopping addiction, sport addiction or similar weak shit, to render the definition so broad it becomes as harmless as it will become meaningless.
 

-Torchedini-

Gone Bonzo
Dec 28, 2009
222
0
0
Just want to drop one point.

If you become bored with the game, There is always another game. So you'll start playing that till you get bored and go on with the next game. Sounds like a vicious circle to me anyways.


And thanks for a good article doc. Loved your first one too.
 

Syntax Error

New member
Sep 7, 2008
2,323
0
0
I highly recommend seeing Second Skin before or after reading this article. It has no ulterior motives, it just shows the effect of WoW on normal people, who happen to play it. There's the story of this one guy in there that is VERY relevant to the first letter.
 

theSovietConnection

Survivor, VDNKh Station
Jan 14, 2009
2,418
0
0
The_root_of_all_evil said:
I'm still not sure about the use of the word addiction here. From my understanding, the signs of addiction are not just a propensity to use the substance, but also propensity to utilise the substance in favour of more pleasurable activities and to store "stashes" of that substance for usage when you can't get to the main source.
But what about the gamer that takes every possible step to prevent from removing himself from the main source, as you say. What if a stash isn't needed because they just don't stop unless absolutely necessary, and even then there are examples of people who game themselves to death. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4137782.stm] Most people agree gambling is addictive, so can't video games be as well?
 
Feb 13, 2008
19,430
0
0
theSovietConnection said:
But what about the gamer that takes every possible step to prevent from removing himself from the main source, as you say. What if a stash isn't needed because they just don't stop unless absolutely necessary, and even then there are examples of people who game themselves to death. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4137782.stm]
That isn't gaming himself to death. That's basic ignoring his body functions. People have been doing that since time immemorial. If you game past your insulin treatment, and you're diabetic, the diabetic seizure won't be caused by the game, will it?

Most people agree gambling is addictive, so can't video games be as well?
It's a different field of addiction though. Addiction primarily stems from the body needing to continue it's vice which shorts out the body. Gambling and gaming are vices, sure, but they're not addictions as much as they're the symptom of a higher mental crisis, I.E. Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.

If you treat gaming as an addicting substance, then you have to treat any pleasurable substance as an addicting substance, which, at the last count, included a good portion of living.

Gambling differs in that there is a specific trigger (to whit: money) which causes the rise in dopamine (the "high") and the deterioration in performance (the "low" - from losing). Gaming doesn't cover that as there is no specific trigger relevant to all addicts. Take an "addicting" game like Starcraft, for instance. What drives you is the wish to be rewarded, but unlike gambling, that wish can be completed multiple times and on multiple formats. That means it's less of a stimulus and more of a symptom of a larger dysfunction of the brain.

All of the "deaths" from gaming have been from individuals in poor health who have pushed their bodies past breaking point for the competitive element, rather than any set stimulus; that means it's a learned behaviour pattern rather than an induced behaviour pattern.

Treating the "addiction" will only remove the symptom, rather than the root cause. Our Starcraft gamer will probably be bored stiff with The Sims, but a poker addict will jump at the chance to play roulette.

Addiction is primarily a deterioration state, gaming can easily be development state - let's face it, we all play games when we're learning. What we need to treat is the OCD response that leads to game focussing, rather than the games themselves.

Like I said before, look at the "normal" individuals who imbibe dangerous amount of toxins, suffer violent mood-swings, dress up in strange ritual dress and are unable to rationalise it - just because their country is playing in a big tournament.

Cognitive therapy rather than substance therapy. Most of these people who die have already suffered from extreme cycles of stress and it may be that the game is helping them cope, rather than deteriorating their life.
 

mkline

New member
May 12, 2010
27
0
0
Syntax Error said:
I highly recommend seeing Second Skin before or after reading this article. It has no ulterior motives, it just shows the effect of WoW on normal people, who happen to play it. There's the story of this one guy in there that is VERY relevant to the first letter.
Watched this movie today. Agree it is quite relevant to the issues folks have raised in this thread. It shows people who have developed rich relationships and communities through gaming, and others who have ended up with somewhat stunted lives and even serious problems. Once again, I think its hard to characterize everyone's play as being any one thing: healthy, addictive, OCD, or anything else you might want to call it.

One thing missing from this movie--the impact of intensive gaming on younger and younger people. I see many young teenagers who get involved. Just as you would expect, some can handle it and some can not.
 

Kalico Lynx

New member
Dec 21, 2008
17
0
0
To all the people staunchly in denial:

If you're trying to argue that gaming isn't addictive without having experienced it yourself there is no way you can understand the motivations and feelings of people who are addicted. Many people can drink alcohol, have sex, go to a casino or even use drugs in a recreational way but other people, due to circumstances and their life experience means that they can and do become addicted to particular activities for whatever reason. Just because there is no 'mind-altering' substance involved does not mean that the chemicals in the brain do not change. With gambling, excessive exercise and sex, there are hormones, pleasure chemicals, endorphins, adrenaline that are all produced simply from enjoyment of an activity and these can become addictive the same way alcohol, nicotine and dopamine are.

Everyone is different and something that gives pleasure to two people, such as a game, can cause one to be addicted and the other bored because the game can provide some enjoyment or other psychological benefit that a person becomes dependent on and can even abuse. It comes down to personality, self-control, emotional well-being and life circumstances. I was addicted to WoW. I would never ever even consider trying to use alcohol or drugs as an 'escape' from the problems I was experiencing at the time but gaming seems so harmless. I spent two and a half years of my life hopelessly dependent on a game because it provided me emotional support, social interaction and an escape from the responsibilities and problems of my life. Just like a substance addiction, I became irate, irrational and even filled with rage if my precious, successful characters were taken away from me because I had nothing else to stop me from facing reality. I missed family vacations, I failed subjects at university and then dropped out altogether, I lost friends and my job. But I didn't care because I still had my little slice of the WoW-verse.

Now, do not think that while I was ruining my real life that I was not aware of it. I was horribly aware of it and that is a very painful thing. How does one deal with that? Try and forget about it for a while playing the game. Forget about losing your job. Forget about family always being angry at you. Like a junkie needing a fix to escape facing reality. My family didn't know what to do and every time they spoke to me it would be about the game and how I should stop playing which would cause me to be irate.

Let's not forget that I began my addiction in depression (just like say, an alcoholic) and it certainly did not cure it. If anything it made me worse. A continuous cycle of regret, shame and escapism; I destroyed my life for WoW and so WoW became my life. I was lucky enough to eventually have the courage to quit cold turkey and let my subscription run out. I did get 'cravings' to play and I felt like I was 'missing out' on something. Even though I haven't played WoW in over three years I still have dreams in which I am playing it. I still remember in great clarity many details about the game. It's very unnerving.

My life is back on track and I'll be graduating a bachelor degree in Criminology this year with an honors degree next year. I look back on those years of my life and I don't actually remember any 'life'. All I did was WoW. It changed my personality; I became very angry all the time. If I wasn't playing WoW I didn't feel alive, it was just killing time until I could get back to an alternate reality with friends I'd never met. Now I can look back and say how silly it all was but the pain was real, the addiction was real.

Just because you can't envision yourself becoming addicted to a game doesn't mean it can't happen to other people. I can't envision myself becoming addicted to alcohol but I know it effects other people. I understand the worry behind "Breaking News: video games ruin lives" sort of things as well as the role of violence in video games but staunchly denying something that psychologists can measure and that real people experience is not going to help anyone. I still play games, even an MMO but now I know how to balance the game with my life by making sure I have everything in my life that I need so I don't try and get it out of a game.
 

300lb. Samoan

New member
Mar 25, 2009
1,765
0
0
Mark J Kline said:
I can say that you might benefit from a decent shrink.
You know, most doctors would have found the very use of that word offensive and off-putting. I appreciate how accepting you are in reciprocating the vocabulary of that very moving post. I'm not in an official capacity to declare anything, but I wanted to tell you that I think you're a welcome addition to Escapist front-page. I'm looking forward to reading your column.
 
Feb 13, 2008
19,430
0
0
Kalico_Lynx said:
To all the people staunchly in denial:
Hrrrm, not a great way to start.
Just because you can't envision yourself becoming addicted to a game doesn't mean it can't happen to other people.
Just because you believe you have doesn't mean you have been. Being a teenager is a stretch on the sanity of every last one of us here. A lot of people, and I'm not including you in this, like to exaggerate their "symptoms" into a full-blown DISEASE OF THE MIND.

A lot of doctors/psychiatrists also like to treat a DISEASE rather than just a product of the environment.

I do know a lot of people who look back on their teenage years and ask "Why did I do that?" and not remember that THEY WERE TEENAGERS. Every teen in the world has a story of hating their parents, hating themselves and being moody. Not all are addictions or illnesses. And every last one of us have been irate, distracted and stupid at sometime when the hormones take control.
 

Vortigar

New member
Nov 8, 2007
862
0
0
I fully agree with Kalico_Lynx up there (despite that first sentence :p ).

Gaming can be addictive in the same way many other things can be, there's simply no sensible way to deny it. Banning video-games on this basis however is another debate entirely. That would mean we should ban tabacco and alcohol as well for example.

Furthermore, we live in a world where people have been diagnosed as being addicted to exercise. People who get extremely irrational if they're prohibited from running for an hour each day. Given that, can anyone claim gaming can't take the place of something like exercise for some people?


I also argue the opposite point with my mom now and again as she seems to think gaming is the worst invention of humanity. No really, she said that, not the atomic bomb or biological warfare agents or PCB's but video-games...


The_root_of_all_evil:
So are you saying that gaming can't be addicting or that a load of the current fuss about it is scaremongering or that lot's of kids like to imagine all kinds of reasons for their state of mind or are you putting questionmarks to the whole psychological field around the topic?

Or all of it at once? :)

Oh, nevermind, just read the preceding pages.
 

PurpleLeafRave

Hyaaaa!
Feb 22, 2009
2,307
0
0
Without gaming I would be unbelievably stressed.

I'm just finishing my exam period. My parents confine me to my room and expect me to do 24 hour revision, and obviously I know I need to do work, but I need breaks also. Without the Xbox in my room, I would have no escape from stress in these situations.
 

Fensfield

New member
Nov 4, 2009
421
0
0
Interesting article.. but, forgive me for saying, it seemed a little bit awkward, as if it were grabbing for what little empirical support was available or something.

Maybe it's because gaming and the psychological effects thereof are so little studied as yet (and so many studies sensationalist rather than setting out to really learn, or create useful evidence for further study), or maybe the two are less than compatible, like trying to discuss the addictive qualities of reading books - more relegated to the (still true) 'people can get addicted to anything' line than a genuine, regularly addictive substance.

We'll see, I guess - and the concept of someone putting themselves in the position of Dr. Mark here is certainly an interesting one, and one I might very likely send an E-Mail or two to myself, at some point, should I think of a good way to phrase my thoughts and queries.

.. Actually I just thought of something.
 

TraderJimmy

New member
Apr 17, 2010
293
0
0
The_root_of_all_evil said:
theSovietConnection said:
But what about the gamer that takes every possible step to prevent from removing himself from the main source, as you say. What if a stash isn't needed because they just don't stop unless absolutely necessary, and even then there are examples of people who game themselves to death. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4137782.stm]
That isn't gaming himself to death. That's basic ignoring his body functions. People have been doing that since time immemorial. If you game past your insulin treatment, and you're diabetic, the diabetic seizure won't be caused by the game, will it?

Most people agree gambling is addictive, so can't video games be as well?
It's a different field of addiction though. Addiction primarily stems from the body needing to continue it's vice which shorts out the body. Gambling and gaming are vices, sure, but they're not addictions as much as they're the symptom of a higher mental crisis, I.E. Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.

If you treat gaming as an addicting substance, then you have to treat any pleasurable substance as an addicting substance, which, at the last count, included a good portion of living.

Gambling differs in that there is a specific trigger (to whit: money) which causes the rise in dopamine (the "high") and the deterioration in performance (the "low" - from losing). Gaming doesn't cover that as there is no specific trigger relevant to all addicts. Take an "addicting" game like Starcraft, for instance. What drives you is the wish to be rewarded, but unlike gambling, that wish can be completed multiple times and on multiple formats. That means it's less of a stimulus and more of a symptom of a larger dysfunction of the brain.

All of the "deaths" from gaming have been from individuals in poor health who have pushed their bodies past breaking point for the competitive element, rather than any set stimulus; that means it's a learned behaviour pattern rather than an induced behaviour pattern.

Treating the "addiction" will only remove the symptom, rather than the root cause. Our Starcraft gamer will probably be bored stiff with The Sims, but a poker addict will jump at the chance to play roulette.

Addiction is primarily a deterioration state, gaming can easily be development state - let's face it, we all play games when we're learning. What we need to treat is the OCD response that leads to game focussing, rather than the games themselves.

Like I said before, look at the "normal" individuals who imbibe dangerous amount of toxins, suffer violent mood-swings, dress up in strange ritual dress and are unable to rationalise it - just because their country is playing in a big tournament.

Cognitive therapy rather than substance therapy. Most of these people who die have already suffered from extreme cycles of stress and it may be that the game is helping them cope, rather than deteriorating their life.
On behalf of the gamblers and casinos being...somewhat unfairly taxed at the moment;

Poker is a game of skill, not purely of chance in the same way as Roulette is. You can't get the same rush playing Roulette (Russian or otherwise) as you can from outsmarting a human opponent. You can't reeeeally lump them together in the same class. Perhaps Blackjack (with a semi-decent counting system) would be a better bet (hahahaohkillme).

OT: I really like the considered approach of the OP. Regardless of whether I agree with the argument, the article was considered and informative. I don't know enough to commit to one side or the other, and I'm happy with that at the moment - this issue is unlikely to significantly impact upon my life, after all, any legislation would only restrict MMORPGs from Korea, that emphasise grinding and promote addictive behaviour.

The argument that ensued was a little bit disgusting, with insults flying almost from the start. That helps no-one, edifies no-one, illuminates no-one.

I do wish that Godwin's Law applied instead to the first person to call someone else a sheep or some variant there-upon. It's getting more and more common, and I've seen it used to defend bogus arguments from Truthers, Birthers, Autism-MMR-link fanatics, Holocaust deniers, pro-lifers, pro-choicers - the list goes on. That doesn't mean that being independently minded, or challenging authority, is necessarily misguided, of course. It just means you don't have to be a total dickhead about it.