108: Heart-wrenching Hentai
- Thread starter Leigh Alexander
- Start date
Do you really believe your own bullshit? You really think there are all these blissful incestuous relationships going on that we don't hear about?Eolirin said:
Oh, darn... too bad I don't have a sister, then I could piss you off to no end. Ew, sicko, what are you trying to implant in me?
And I wasn't claiming that laws are arbitary or that you were doing so, I was merely trying to make the point that you essentially agreed with me in terms of normativity and laws being in the same lines, the last bit was sarcasm.
And as for the part about no natural aversion, did you... did you agree with me? And then say I was dumb? Wow, I think that that requires an awkward silence.
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Okay, that's all you get.
And I wasn't claiming that laws are arbitary or that you were doing so, I was merely trying to make the point that you essentially agreed with me in terms of normativity and laws being in the same lines, the last bit was sarcasm.
And as for the part about no natural aversion, did you... did you agree with me? And then say I was dumb? Wow, I think that that requires an awkward silence.
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Okay, that's all you get.
I wasn't agreeing with you. Try rereading what you and I wrote seven or eight times, you'll get it eventually.LordOmnit said:
All these? Wait, I think I rather specifically mentioned that such things would be really rare. But allow me to reiterate that. Such cases are not very likely, lets say exceptionally rare even, for a wide range of reasons. That doesn't mean they don't exist. And it doesn't mean they *can't* exist.
Things that are improbably are still possible. It doesn't mean you're going to see a rubber band expand on its own or someone spontaneously combust anytime soon.LordOmnit said:
You can violate a norm without breaking a law. If I walk up to you in a restaurant and fart on your dinner, I'm not breaking any laws, but I'm sure as hell violating some societal norms.LordOmnit said:
Okay, sorry if I sounded like I was saying they are the same, I'm just saying that... actually, I think that is specifically illegal in some states and counties. One of those weird-laws-type-things. Anyways, I wasn't trying to say that laws and norms are identical, but they certainly flow from the same source, so of course their waters are going to be similar.
I suppose part of the problem you two are having deals with the fact that you seem to be operating on different definitions of *natural*. There's no genetic imperative that deals with incest on a hereditary level. There's a definite imprinting that occurs when you're dealing with the raising of children that seems to limit their attraction to the people they're being raised with, but such an imprinting doesn't occur on the basis of a "family" level. In fact the conception of family, at least as we tend to view it, doesn't even enter into it at all. A child of even 4 or 5 is more than aware of who is or isn't a blood relative, but they're still just as unlikely to become attracted to someone who's been raised with them. In that sense, there's a certain wiring in the brain that deals with the effects of being raised together with someone. It doesn't however, have to do with the physical makeup of the person, just with the environmental effects of being around them during that period. If we step a tiny bit further back, nature itself says nothing about incest, because once we look away from human beings, we can rather easily find at least one example of species that has absolutely no problem with it. The Bonobo.
You might get hit by indecency, public nuisance, possibly assault [there's a few cases I've seen in LN that were indirect, though I can't recall if they actually won...], trespassing if you try it again once you get kicked out...
Neither are actually physically possible. Quantum mechanical effects aren't capable of affecting items that are that big, and that's the only way you'd actually see anything even remotely resembling that sort of reaction. Newtonian physics, while not accurate on a subatomic level, rather effectively models reality on the level we function in, and it basically says that both effects aren't simply improbable, but rather are absolutely impossible, at least in the way you're implying they occur.Efftee said:
The German couple caused such a stir I'm quite amazed nobody linked it earlier...
I have to add that I'd be surprised if this is the only one out there.
I've been involved in debates like this before and they never end really. Those other discussions have taken place on anime forums and have included various titles of games, manga and anime. In Japan there is a whole slew of these kind of fictional relationships, a lot of romantic series are concerned with either a childhood friend or a not-blood-related 'sibling' they've been living with for the last years for some reason or other. In Japanese they literally call another 'sister/brother' in these kind of relationships. In general those situations feel creepy enough for most, but here and there they actually use a full sibling. It's a rather common theme really, I've seen a few dozen series which included this and am rather tired of it really. Out of the top of my head: Angel Sanctuary and Ayashi no Ceres both deal with it, AS quite directly btw, it's the main plot point, both are quite wide-spread series with large fan bases. Contrary to popular opinion both these series are written by women and some 95% of their fans are also females (in the East and West), so the male-fantasy excuse doesn't work.
In the West relationships like these have grown to become such a taboo that most people won't or even can't think about them on any kind of level, even a conceptual/theoretical one. As much as we like to say we've outgrown taboos, they're still here. Anyone want a discussion on the word ******? You're likely to get your head smashed in if someone overhears you. It's funny that a time in which showing an exposed ankle could get you excised from your family people also married their cousins, it does seem we run in circles don't we? The circles just don't match across different cultures.
In the end, it's just that I hate Efftee's knee-jerk reaction. Everything should be debatable, there's just too much stuff that's been blown away over the years, what used to be inappropriate then or now, might merely become impractical. The only real problem we can have with incest is the negative results of inbreeding, but once we're able to fix that, what then? For now though, I agree that incest is a disgusting practice, yet I still wonder if this is social programming, but like rapist-porn, there's a definite market for it, and it hasn't been banned per-se in a lot of places. Japan also has the age of 14 as limit for consensual sex, why don't we start ragging on that one too?
I have to add that I'd be surprised if this is the only one out there.
I've been involved in debates like this before and they never end really. Those other discussions have taken place on anime forums and have included various titles of games, manga and anime. In Japan there is a whole slew of these kind of fictional relationships, a lot of romantic series are concerned with either a childhood friend or a not-blood-related 'sibling' they've been living with for the last years for some reason or other. In Japanese they literally call another 'sister/brother' in these kind of relationships. In general those situations feel creepy enough for most, but here and there they actually use a full sibling. It's a rather common theme really, I've seen a few dozen series which included this and am rather tired of it really. Out of the top of my head: Angel Sanctuary and Ayashi no Ceres both deal with it, AS quite directly btw, it's the main plot point, both are quite wide-spread series with large fan bases. Contrary to popular opinion both these series are written by women and some 95% of their fans are also females (in the East and West), so the male-fantasy excuse doesn't work.
In the West relationships like these have grown to become such a taboo that most people won't or even can't think about them on any kind of level, even a conceptual/theoretical one. As much as we like to say we've outgrown taboos, they're still here. Anyone want a discussion on the word ******? You're likely to get your head smashed in if someone overhears you. It's funny that a time in which showing an exposed ankle could get you excised from your family people also married their cousins, it does seem we run in circles don't we? The circles just don't match across different cultures.
In the end, it's just that I hate Efftee's knee-jerk reaction. Everything should be debatable, there's just too much stuff that's been blown away over the years, what used to be inappropriate then or now, might merely become impractical. The only real problem we can have with incest is the negative results of inbreeding, but once we're able to fix that, what then? For now though, I agree that incest is a disgusting practice, yet I still wonder if this is social programming, but like rapist-porn, there's a definite market for it, and it hasn't been banned per-se in a lot of places. Japan also has the age of 14 as limit for consensual sex, why don't we start ragging on that one too?
So, outside of inbreeding, you wouldn't find anything wrong with, say, a 50-year-old man having sex with his 14-year-old daughter (in Japan, I guess)? Really? Honestly?Vortigar said:
Personal feelings of revulsion or whatever are irrelevent for anything and everything that doesn't directly concern you. The only real things that are wrong with a 50-year-old man having sex with his 14-year-old daughter are genetic inbreeding and the possibility that the girl was forced into sex against her will. Both are good reasons for trying to stop that kind of thing from happening. Someone thinking that it's disgusting is not a good reason to stop it from happening. Otherwise you end up with black people being locked in prison for having a consensual, loving relationship with white people. And it's precisely because taboos are so transient that we cannot condemn others for the sole reason that they're doing things we find reprehensible, when we lack actual evidence why such things would have a negative impact on the rights and responsibilities of the party in question. Basically, that question is meaningless.Efftee said:
And you're still relying on the fact that you find incest disgusting as a basis for your entire argument. Assuming that only unbalanced pedophile rapists are interested in incest is just ridiculous. Assuming that there is no possibility of cases of willing, consensual incest between people of different ages, is ridiculous. And assuming that rape and statutory rape are one and the same is, again, ridiculous. To clarify, sex with people under the legal age of consent, relations between teachers and students, and other such relationships aren't illegal because it is only possible that the older, or more responsible party coerced the younger, or less responsible party into the relationship. They are illegal because the chance of coercion is too great. As such, consensual relationships and sex in the afformentioned situations are illegal, but not immoral. The fact that people may find it disgusting does not, and cannot, come into the equation.
This thread is officially on notice. If y'all can't talk about having sex with siblings without insulting each other and being vile, we'll go ahead and lock it and break out the ban hammer. /mod.