12-Year-Old Forced to Put Up Wii For Bail

[orangebandguy]

Is that all it takes to keep the little shit in line? I suppose we can't beat him over the head can we?

 

[paragon1]

when did the justice system become like parents?

When parents stopped doing their jobs.

 

[Undercover]

When the "Young Offenders Act" became the "Youth Criminal Justice Act" those of us working in crime prevention were pretty much left to our own devices as to how to interpret it, with no help from the lawmakers other than a 3 page description of the changes to the act. (Of which there were few) When my agency approached the police for help, they were just as in the dark as we were. How much confidence in the law does that inspire?

Ah, I take it Canada works of the 'Common law' method too? (same as the UK) Where the politicians write the general law, and its left to the judges to try and work out what actually means in practice? Rather than, say, the law being precise and clear to begin with, heh.

Canada is still part of the commonwealth so yes, we do basically stick to the old 'Common Law' practice, at least when it comes to youth crime anyway. I'm so glad I don't work in law enforcement anymore, the frustration was just too much for me, and I was just a Private Investigator, not a cop.

 

[Undercover]

snippity doo-da

Seeing as you seem to have actual experiance in these matters i'm intruiged by the subject now. Criminal law for children is a sticky subject down here in the USA too. What in your opinion DOES work?

Wow. I'm glad you didn't ask me anything complicated.

The truth is that I don't know for certain what does work, all I could give you IS just my opinion. I was an investigator not a lawmaker or counsellor so my job was to catch the bad guys, not decide their punishment.

To answer your question without going into a 5000 word essay on societal issues relating to the delinquent behaviour of juveniles, the root causes of the problem need to be addressed more urgently than figuring out an effective means of punishment/rehabilitation.

The article didn't go into the kid's home or school life any deeper than the stupid shit he's been doing, so there's no way to see what the catalyst for his behaviour is. Usually that's the first place you look is at the immediate family, find out what if any stressors are in the house and if there's any history of abuse of any kind. Emotional abuse/neglect happens even in the most "Normal" looking families, in fact I would believe that its even more prevalent in the mid to upper classes than is generally accepted. Having money doesn't neccessarily make you any less fucked up than the family on welfare, it just makes it easier for you to hide it.

The problem is, that's just scraping the surface after the damage has been done, and its impossible to screen every single family in the entire country. The truth is that our system is flawed. Kids are growing up under the false belief that once they turn 18 they have a clean slate, so why not be as bad as you can until then? And in a lot of cases kids are trying to emulate the 'gangsta' lifestyle which for some reason is so appealing (Thank you fucking record executives and suburban white boys), which inevitably devolves into violence and criminal activity, even for the so-called 'priveleged' little white boy wanna-g's. There is nothing more dangerous than a 16 year old skinny suburban white kid with a gun who thinks hes a gangsta and has something to prove. I know this from experience.

Turning 18 isn't always a turning point for these kids, either. Most of the time its just an opportunity to start an adult criminal record, whether intentional or not. I even know of a kid who got busted on his 18th birthday for theft, public drunkeness and taking a swing at a cop. An entire future down the toilet in one stupid move.

Again I don't want to go into a debate about how hip-hop is killing our kids, that's just a knee-jerk answer and is NOT what I'm saying at all, I'm just using that particular lifestyle as an example of where kids might get their influences from when their parents are absent from their lives. And lets face it, most North American kids are being raised by the internet anyway what with both parents working (Or not working) and basically ignoring them.

Ok I know I'm already infamous for verbose posts and this one has already gone on too long. I could go on about this particular subject and everything related to it, but its complicated and goes so deep that it would take too bloody long to even scratch the surface and most of you would stop reading anyway.

My point is, locking so called "bad" kids away isn't always the answer. Finding out what is making these kids bad in the first place and taking steps to rectify the situation whatever the cause, is. What makes that part nearly impossible is figuring out just how the hell to do it. Politicians, lawmakers, shrinks, teachers, parents, everybody has to be involved and agree on the best way to treat this problem, but none of them can agree, all of them think they're right and nothing ever changes except for newer and bigger proverbial band-aids for bullet wounds.

Fuck. I probably could have just said that and not gone off on yet another rant, but then I wouldn't be me, would I?

 

[cleverlymadeup]

Unfortunately a lot of people rely on the justice system to try and parent their kids for them, thinking a little jail time will straighten them out, or they've just given up. I don't buy into the whole "There's no such thing as a bad kid" bullshit, I've seen absolute monsters come from perfectly normal (on the outside anyway) families where Mom and Dad both have jobs, there's no abuse except maybe ignorance, and yet the kid is just naturally fucked up.

i'm going to take exception to this part and here's why. it is true there is no bad kid, by definition no one is good or bad. now the fact that kids acts like a hellion is because of the parents' lack of discipline. the kids don't have a fear of anything because they were never correctly punished at home. so really it's the parents' fault, not the kids. the kids are just the outcome of bad parents.

i'll use my friend's ex and her kids as an example. my friend, not the father, and his ex both had stable jobs and treated the kids well. she wouldn't discipline the kids or would do with the least effort as possible and she wouldn't let him punish them at all. the youngest one when sent to his room would yell and scream until she relented and let him out of his punishment. the older ones when "grounded" were still allowed to have all their friends over and do what ever they wanted in the house. needless to say they had no fear of punishment nor anything else and the oldest one was well on his way to becoming a resident of the Canadian penal system.

they were acting this way cause they had no fear of retribution. i mean if i stepped out of line i was afraid i was going to get smacked pretty hard or in a lot of trouble for doing that. honestly if parents did a better job of raising and punishing their kids, then we wouldn't have a lot of these issues

 

[Undercover]

Unfortunately a lot of people rely on the justice system to try and parent their kids for them, thinking a little jail time will straighten them out, or they've just given up. I don't buy into the whole "There's no such thing as a bad kid" bullshit, I've seen absolute monsters come from perfectly normal (on the outside anyway) families where Mom and Dad both have jobs, there's no abuse except maybe ignorance, and yet the kid is just naturally fucked up.

i'm going to take exception to this part and here's why. it is true there is no bad kid, by definition no one is good or bad. now the fact that kids acts like a hellion is because of the parents' lack of discipline. the kids don't have a fear of anything because they were never correctly punished at home. so really it's the parents' fault, not the kids. the kids are just the outcome of bad parents.

i'll use my friend's ex and her kids as an example. my friend, not the father, and his ex both had stable jobs and treated the kids well. she wouldn't discipline the kids or would do with the least effort as possible and she wouldn't let him punish them at all. the youngest one when sent to his room would yell and scream until she relented and let him out of his punishment. the older ones when "grounded" were still allowed to have all their friends over and do what ever they wanted in the house. needless to say they had no fear of punishment nor anything else and the oldest one was well on his way to becoming a resident of the Canadian penal system.

they were acting this way cause they had no fear of retribution. i mean if i stepped out of line i was afraid i was going to get smacked pretty hard or in a lot of trouble for doing that. honestly if parents did a better job of raising and punishing their kids, then we wouldn't have a lot of these issues

That's kind of where I was going, what I meant was that screwed up kids come from all kinds of home lives, not just impoverished ones and yes I agree the main causation behind bad behaviour is usually no fear of consequences due to passive-agressive parenting. Saying there's no such thing as a bad kid (or adult) is somewhat naive though, I've read cases of sociopathic behaviour in children as young as 3 and 4 years old with no history of mental illness, abuse or neglect in the family whatsoever. Some kids (and adults) are just naturally wired that way. Put someone like that into a situation where the parents let them do whatever they want, and you've got a ticking time bomb. So in a less philosophical sense, yes there are bad people out there, its just not their or anyone else's fault. If you had taken the time to read the subtext, you would have understood that.

Now when it comes to otherwise "normal" children, yes I agree with you 100% that whatever kind of touble these kids get into can all be attributed to the parents, but how many of them do you think would actually accept responsibility for it and do something about it? If you knew how many kids I arrested whose parents didn't give a shit, you'd be sick to your stomach.

And I'm not talking trailer trash here, I'm talking closed-community living, 2 car driving dual income middle class homes.

Your experience comes from witnessing your friend's ex's situation, mine comes from having investigated over 300 juvenile criminal cases and a background in criminology. I'm not saying you're wrong, quite the contrary I agree with you. But to dismiss my statement without understanding my background was a little hasty, don't you think?

 

[Scrythe]

I'm glad that it's just a substitute for hard cash, rather than them taking it away because it's 'corrupting him' or something.

This.

---

I'd also like to add that this kid should have gotten his ass beat long ago. With a fucking belt.

 

[cleverlymadeup]

That's kind of where I was going, what I meant was that screwed up kids come from all kinds of home lives, not just impoverished ones and yes I agree the main causation behind bad behaviour is usually no fear of consequences due to passive-agressive parenting. Saying there's no such thing as a bad kid (or adult) is somewhat naive though, I've read cases of sociopathic behaviour in children as young as 3 and 4 years old with no history of mental illness, abuse or neglect in the family whatsoever. Some kids (and adults) are just naturally wired that way. Put someone like that into a situation where the parents let them do whatever they want, and you've got a ticking time bomb. So in a less philosophical sense, yes there are bad people out there, its just not their or anyone else's fault. If you had taken the time to read the subtext, you would have understood that.

well at 3 or 4 most people will demonstrate sociopathic type behavior, mostly because they don't know what they are fully doing, they are still learning about their world. which i will also pin on parents not raising their kids properly, be it thru discipline or realising/caring what their kid is actually doing. they just think the kid "will grow out of the phase" or something equally as stupid.

i know there are some that seem like bad people but i'm going to suggest it wasn't due to the way they were wired. there's some else at work there, ie bad parenting or something. tho i do realise there are other mental disorders at work as well, it's the "seemingly normal" lives that i'm going to suggest aren't, there's something not right there and it's being hidden.

Now when it comes to otherwise "normal" children, yes I agree with you 100% that whatever kind of touble these kids get into can all be attributed to the parents, but how many of them do you think would actually accept responsibility for it and do something about it? If you knew how many kids I arrested whose parents didn't give a shit, you'd be sick to your stomach.

And I'm not talking trailer trash here, I'm talking closed-community living, 2 car driving dual income middle class homes.

Your experience comes from witnessing your friend's ex's situation, mine comes from having investigated over 300 juvenile criminal cases and a background in criminology. I'm not saying you're wrong, quite the contrary I agree with you. But to dismiss my statement without understanding my background was a little hasty, don't you think?

well that's the thing is parents or people in general don't take responsibility for their (in)actions. i fully support stuff like punishing the parents as well. in my friend's ex's case her eldest did something and they ended up having to pay for him. she was just a bad parent as she'd rather be the "cool mom" rather than the "good mom". she would be pissed at the kids and yell but really that would amount to a whole lot of nothing and she wouldn't really do anything to punish them.

i can fully agree that most parents either don't give a damn or they don't think their precious little snowflake can do stuff like that. i also think that we should punish the parents for this type of stuff as well. it would be best if parents disciplined their kids correctly, i mean all this stuff about correct parenting is a load of crap because frankly my parents didn't do all the "correct" things and i turned out fine and so did a lot of my friends.

 

[Lord Mountbatten Reborn]

Wow, they took his Wii. That's a lighter punishment than a warning. And it's his most prized possession?

 

[NickCaligo42]

What the heck? This kid sounds like a freaking psychopath with a hard-on for random violence, like Alex from Clockwork Orange. I'll be surprised if this makes him change.

 

[duchaked]

There must be something wrong with him if he values his wii.

I mean seriously...

so many points in so many directions...and this is the only one I'm going to highlight haha

but no really honestly...some may see the justice system as trying to be the parents, but when it comes to children, the legal systems tries to DEFER criminal ways (more so than with adults that is). stop them from getting worse if anything (rather than locking them up)...

oh it's a complicated topic but still

 

[theultimateend]

Perhaps a man called Bubba can show him all how swining the "Wiimote" around, when he's in real jail for more serious crimes.

So the 'kid' has assaulted three people (quite violently), ignored numerous court rulings, and yet they let him out on bail?

The law has got to move with the times, "children" get off too lightly with pretty serious behavioral problems.

Especially considering that I was a Kid not too many years ago (by Law only a few years ago) and as long back as I can remember I understood what I was doing.

Are there really children out there that don't understand how reality works? I mean I realize some kid burried his own head in a sandbox because of Naruto but like...that's ONE kid...the other millions seem to be smarter than that.

Just like this asshole.

 

[crape]

Why the fuck isn't this kid locked up somewhere? If this is what he's like at 12 imagine what he'll probably be like as he gets older.

This post is disgusting. Its a kid, there is still plenty of time left in his life to turn it around, the information we have says he hasn't inflicted any permanent damage. Seriously, you want to lock up a kid for how you predict his future decisions will pan out? You've just determined that he will become a professional criminal, mentally/physically abused, or dead if you send him to an institution. The only time I could see sending a child to prison would be if they had committed proven beyond a doubt premeditated murder where the damages can't be repaired in some fashion to both the convicted and the victims. Also, try to remember, children sent to jail who survive the ordeal often complete their sentences and are released back into society having grown up knowing only that kind of out look on life for half or more of their life - do you really want a 30-40 year old who grew up as a caged predator? Not the kind of society I want to live in, I would rather try to give the kid some hope for some joy in their own life before they end up down that road.

Say no to Prison World.

you've just become my personal hero. It's nice to know that some people feel the same way you do...

on the other hand

Smack him with the wiimote.

i like this approach way better xD

 

[cypherslock]

Where the hell are the parents?! My gosh, my kids are going to HATE me as I will raise them with respect, something that apparently is sorely missing here. We have a test to see if we can drive safe, too bad there isn't one for when you want to have kids. If you don't want to raise them properly, then don't have them. There's no excuse for this..sad.

 

[Wandrecanada]

Winnipeg... murder capital of Canada. We regained the title last night oddly enough.

Yeah that's kindof annoying that we're back up there at #1. Sadly it's a statistical thing since we're such a small population compared to Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal.

On the topic of bail posting I think everyone needs to remember that this is only bail and will be something used leverage to try and get him to cooperate. I have a funny feeling that the only thing that'll learn this kid is to get beat up himself and lose. Lose badly. If he's just amoral then counseling will be useless since it means he has no empathy with those he hurts. Amoral people are frankly, almost impossible to reform and usually just end up in jail for life or dead.

PS: The only good news here is that I'm not the only Winnipeger who reads Escapist! If you happen to be in Winnipeg Adam West is here at the Convention Center today until 4:00! That man could read the phone book and make it sound like awesome.

 

[Obrien Xp]

this is brilliant probably no better way to make him co-operate.

if not The Chair is always available. i wonder how this kid's parents are.

Keep in mind that this is Canada, we have no capital punishment.

Seeing as this kid is 12, the loss of a wii won't phase him, if he was 8 or younger then I may think that this would have some effect.

Show him around an adult jail, lock him in there for one night (solitary ofc) then ask him if he wants to come back to live there for life.

 

[DarkPanda XIII]

Seriously, that type of violence is surprising, one that really does need to be a good smack to the head. Why? CCause the kid didn't seem to have much violence thrown to him. I could be very wrong in this situation, but really, a belt to the rear....usually gets people's attention enough to make them never to do that crap...

 

[zombiejoe]

EPIC

 

[GreyWolf257]

Well, although I agree with this, I also think his parents should BEAT HIS ASS (Or maybe his parents should NOT BEAT HIS ASS if he is being abused). I just hope this kid doesn't turn out to be a serial killer or spouse-abuser, and it seems he is going down that trail.