15 year old kills 9 year old neighbor, charged as adult

[Sad Robot]

The whole thing is just sad. Whatever happens to this girl, her life is over either way. Even if she were to become completely rehabilitated, she'd have to live with the guilt and the judgment of others. Like someone else mentioned, no one will want to associate with a child killer. This would, most likely, drive her even more crazy. It's not gonna end well.

I do believe that she probably has a mental disorder. The article said she had depression, and to the guy who said depressed people only kill themselves, not others, is wrong. Clinical depression isn't just "feeling sad". It's kinda hard to explain it to those who haven't felt that bad before, but full blown despair is good starting point. How it affects people also varies. Me, I just cried and slept a lot. Some hurt themselves. Some go crazy. People with depression often have or acquire other disorders along with it.

I'm not saying it's an excuse, just something that needs to be taken into consideration. As was pointed out, the article mentioned that the girl dug two graves, but she only killed one person. After finding out "what it felt like", it's likely that she was going to put herself in the other grave, or at least had the notion of it. Maybe she thought she wouldn't be able to live with herself afterward, maybe she thought it would make up for it, or maybe she wanted to kill herself all along and decided, "what the hell, might as well take someone with me, see what that's like, since I'm going to be dead anyway." Clearly, she is not mentally stable.

As to what should be done with her, it's tricky. Personally, I think she should kept in an asylum for a long time, if not the rest of her life. It's not a perfect solution, but in this case, I don't think there is one. I don't see her surviving in jail, nor do I see her recovering and becoming a functioning member of society. Maybe if she had gotten some kind of help earlier on, if someone had only realized what she was thinking, things might have been different. But when you take another human being's life, especially in a situation like this, it's not something you and/or others can get over. It's permanent.

A sensible response.

 

[The Great Zegrool]

A 9 year old is in 4th grade. A 15 year old is in high school. There is a clear difference in mental capacity and maturity. While the 9 year old would probably still get a few years in a psych ward, the 15 year old should know murder is wrong by that point in their life. They deserve a much harsher penalty than being evaluated until they are 18, then released with nothing on their record.

are you going to claim the mental maturity of a 9 year old and a 15 year old are the same?

big difference between a 9 year old and a 15 year old. This person is old enough that the government trusts her with a drivers permit.

She needs to do time and the juvenile detention system wasn't built for murderers.

We are assessing this legally, and legally, she is still a child. Legally she is as responsible for that act as my fictional nine-year-old.

We need to judge on the basis of the law. If they change the law, and say fifteen-year-olds are adults and/or as responsible for their actions as one, then I wouldn't be arguing.

Also, it's a slippery slope until you start condemning thirteen-year-olds, after all, they are only two years younger. What about ten-year-olds, or nine-year-olds?

 

[Low Key]

Seeing as this is America will she be given life when trialed as an adult or are we talking death sentance here? Obviously jsut as speculation but could they seriously put a minor to death?

Not all states have the death penalty, and no, she won't get life. That would be stupid on the part of the judge. A 15 year old girl doesn't deserve life unless she's a serial killer. If she does get tried as an adult, it will probably be for manslaughter which is 5-30 years in prison.

Worse has happened. Look up the case of Sarah Kruzan. She's serving a sentence of life without the possibility of parole for killing her pimp when she was sixteen, after the man had raped her and forced her into prostitution for three years. She's twenty-nine now, still wrongly imprisoned, and has little hope of ever getting out.

If a girl like her, who had been victimized for years by the one she killed, received such a harsh sentence, imagine what's going to happen to this little monster who actually thought out this crime and aimed it at someone unable to defend themselves. Hopefully she'll be the one to rot behind bars.

That's California and their very messed up legal system for you. It's a very tragic case from what I read and I hope like hell she gets an appeal. Sometimes justice isn't served where justice is due, and sometimes in Sarah's case, it's too readily served. But hopefully the judge presiding over Alyssa Bustamante's case isn't so insane, yet still wants to preserve the true meaning of justice.

We are assessing this legally, and legally, she is still a child. Legally she is as responsible for that act as my fictional nine-year-old.

We need to judge on the basis of the law. If they change the law, and say fifteen-year-olds are adults and/or as responsible for their actions as one, then I wouldn't be arguing.

Also, it's a slippery slope until you start condemning thirteen-year-olds, after all, they are only two years younger. What about ten-year-olds, or nine-year-olds?

There is legal connotation, and then there is what 15 year olds are mentally capable of understanding. If we are to presume she did this subconsiously, then you would be correct, but she premeditatively planned and executed a murder. It took an understanding of when, where and how. The why in the whole thing might be boardline insanity, but the rest was done in cold blood.

 

[Margrave Rinstock]

I can not possibly thing of a more, Disturbing, Heinous thing as This.
Murder of an Abusive adult is one level of bad.

Pre-Meditated murder of an Innocent Child...Just to Know How it Feels like?! Straight Evil!

Not only to I Say Adult court, But I would Call for a constitutional amendment that would allow a very Spectacular Public Execution, Involving that Evil Half Human Burned at the Stake/Disemboweled/Decapitated or the Like.

Oh, If only Hammurabi where in Charge today!

There is Simply no Excuse. If you Commit such an Abomination, In my book, You Forfeit the Right to be consider Entirely human.

I have no Idea how I will get any sleep tonight now I have Learned of this.

Note: I am only slightly Exaggerating.

 

[Sad Robot]

I can not possibly thing of a more, Disturbing, Heinous thing as This.
Murder of an Abusive adult is one level of bad.

Pre-Meditated murder of an Innocent Child...Just to Know How it Feels like?! Straight Evil!

Not only to I Say Adult court, But I would Call for a constitutional amendment that would allow a very Spectacular Public Execution, Involving that Evil Half Human Burned at the Stake/Disemboweled/Decapitated or the Like.

Oh, If only Hammurabi where in Charge today!

There is Simply no Excuse. If you Commit such an Abomination, In my book, You Forfeit the Right to be consider Entirely human.

I have no Idea how I will get any sleep tonight now I have Learned of this.

Because biblical vengeance will bring a dead 9 year old back to life and, without exception, stop people from committing such acts in the future?

 

[temporalcrux]

Age does not matter, so long as the cognitive ability to reason and plan to THIS degree exits. Depression doesn't make you go "I'm waiting until I can kill her with no one to see it and hide the body, because I want to see what killing a person is like", no matter what the age. It's something other than depression. It's a friggin lack of humanity.

 

[Saltiness]

People are confusing this ethically and from a lawful perspective. Lawfully, she is a minor. However, laws are in place to allow such things to be circumvented in extreme cases when such justice is insufficient.

Ethics on the other hand are wonderfully subjective to the society that breeds them, in America she is legally a child and as such "society" views her as such. By that regard adulthood in America could be argued that it doesn't come about till 18 or 21 or some other unambiguous age of consent to do something legally. In other places, adulthood can be viewed as something as simply a coming of age of 14 or passing through puberty. (one mans terrorist, anothers freedom fighter, blah blah blah).

Don't confuse logic, law and societal ethics.

Precedent has been set with sentencing of younger children for 'lesser' as adults, argument of how the law is the law and how it'll lead to such a slippery slope, are clearly barking up the wrong tree and should find a far better empathetic case to use as their backing for social crusades.

At the end of the day, I say that she needs to be removed from society, if that be padded cell, locked cell or chicken coop with a shotgun, I neither care or am able to offer an educated enough opinion on.

 

[SantoUno]

Wow, just wow.

Yeah, she should be tried as an adult, no damn way the courts can be lenient with her, if she did this just for the experience imagine what else she might be capable of doing.

 

[Margrave Rinstock]

I can not possibly thing of a more, Disturbing, Heinous thing as This.
Murder of an Abusive adult is one level of bad.

Pre-Meditated murder of an Innocent Child...Just to Know How it Feels like?! Straight Evil!

Not only to I Say Adult court, But I would Call for a constitutional amendment that would allow a very Spectacular Public Execution, Involving that Evil Half Human Burned at the Stake/Disemboweled/Decapitated or the Like.

Oh, If only Hammurabi where in Charge today!

There is Simply no Excuse. If you Commit such an Abomination, In my book, You Forfeit the Right to be consider Entirely human.

I have no Idea how I will get any sleep tonight now I have Learned of this.

Because biblical vengeance will bring a dead 9 year old back to life and, without exception, stop people from committing such acts in the future?

I am not Suggesting it will Bring that 9 year old back, nor will it Prevent Truly insane people from Doing so in the Future.

Justice need not have a practical effect on crime rates to be legitimate.
Justice, stated simply is the Enforcement of what people deserve, and a cannot think of something would make her deserve more than death.

 

[appleblush]

Wait, she planned it to see what it felt like?

Screw trying her as a minor or an adult. She needs to be tried on the condition of severely mentally unstable. This isn't depression. This is bordering on sociopathy, possibly mixed with other behavioral disorders. Murder typically has alternative motivations. And if you look at serial killers in which there WEREN'T ulterior motives and the killer was just doing it for the sake of doing it, then you will find lengthy case studies about them and typically they have severe behavioral issues that stem from outside the immediate environmental impact of the time. And in the case of a 15-year-old? I guarantee she has something.

Besides, what's this nonsense about "it was planned so obviously it was intentional". It was planned for a week. Often times planned murders are more of a hint towards some sort of violent disorder more than impulsive murders. Are we going to start letting adults off the hook for impulsive murders? Really, the fact she planned is not nearly a good enough reason. The fact that she confessed may be though. Planning doesn't indicate she knew she was wrong, just indicates that it wasn't on a whim. Has nothing to do with how capable she is or if she thinks like an adult. The fact that she confessed shows she either knew her actions were wrong, implying that she did know what she was doing, or that she's absolutely batshit bonkers. And really, I'm going with the second one. She doesn't look like the typical emo, "Oh woe is me", dark poetry, Twilight fangirl, goth. She looks like the quiet girl in the back row who gets good grades but no one cares. Like the type of person who would plan a serial shooting and no one would know the difference. And those are the types of people who don't understand human life or its value.

Personally, I have to ask how she could possibly have planned something like this for a WEEK, and her parents not even notice. Where's the lawsuit against them for negligence?

What this comes down too, it has nothing to do with the murderer. It has everything to do with the victim. If this had been a girl her age, another 15-year-old kid, you wanna bet that an adult sentence would've hardly been considered? Because the victim was 9-years-old, much younger than the killer, it sparked sympathy in the community, the judge, and the jury, and so they called for an adult hearing. I guarantee you, THAT is what this is. Sympathy is what lawyers play on, it's what juries hear.

I like this line the best: "and that the state had no adequate facilities or services to treat Bustamante if she remained in the juvenile system." In other words, the state has failed to create proper rehabilitation and counseling systems for children so we're just going to cart her away to adult prison in which she will no doubt commit suicide within a year.

And at that point I hope someone thinks to sue the judge for negligence.

No fucking teens have depression. Don't even start.

Also, teenagers can have depression and may even be more susceptible to it because of the sudden rise in hormone secretion and the physical changes. Depression is a neurological imbalance, and when you're going into teen years you're just starting to truly develop in that category. Combined with the increase of academic stress and the new societal expectations, high schoolers are INCREDIBLY capable of getting depression.

 

[Sven und EIN HUND]

No fucking teens have depression. Don't even start.

Uhhh, excuse me? Although it is hard to distinguish between real depression and "I'm sad, look at me" in teens, it is most certainly prominent.

On to the topic, reading that first sentence had me with my jaw dropped for quite a while. This kid, obviously psychopathic, has thrown her life away; she deserves nothing less than life imprisonment.

Have fun, kid, you're an hero.

 

[axia777]

Too bad for her. I doubt she will get the death penalty. She will most likely get life and at 15 that is pretty bad. She is screwed either way.

 

[Flos]

We are assessing this legally, and legally, she is still a child. Legally she is as responsible for that act as my fictional nine-year-old.

We need to judge on the basis of the law. If they change the law, and say fifteen-year-olds are adults and/or as responsible for their actions as one, then I wouldn't be arguing.

Also, it's a slippery slope until you start condemning thirteen-year-olds, after all, they are only two years younger. What about ten-year-olds, or nine-year-olds?

Nobody was saying that fifteen year olds are adults. They are saying this individual fifteen year old committed a crime that is on par with an adult crime and, thus, needs to be treated in the appropriate manner. Or did I miss the part where all your delusions occurred in reality?

So, why not take the cases on a person-by-person basis? Y'know, assess the mental maturity of the individual and decide whether or not s/he is competent enough to stand as an adult. Or does that not fly in your black and white world?

Your fictional nine year old needs to be assessed based on the situation.

And don't pull that 'but we generalize for everything else lol she shouldn't be tried as an adult' bull on me. Murder is an issue that deals with the loss of life. Every other murder case is taken based on the evidence. There's a difference between first and second degree murder and manslaughter. Should we just try everyone who takes a life, whether it be due to carelessness or intent, with first degree murder? That's clearly what you're saying, what with all children needing to be tried as children no matter the crime.

I would be worried if there were a group of competent individuals that had immunity no matter what the crime. It would make retribution for gang beatings and school shootings quite sad.

A woman once executed her two sons because they had developed Parkinson's and were going to suffer greatly. She felt it in their best interest for their lives to end. The woman simply got assisted suicide charges. She is a double-murderer. Cases need to be taken based on the situation. That's why the mentally retarded won't get the same sentence as a competent person could.

The girl decided that she was more human and had more of a right to exist than another person. She was more human than those of us who do not kill. She will be tried as an adult because the DA gathered the information readily available and decided on her mental state.

It's a slippery slope when you start making a generation of people immune to justice.

 

[axia777]

She needs to go to a mental institution for life at the very least. I would never trust a person like her with public life ever again.

You know who I feel sorry for, unless they are pieces of shit of course, are her parents. Imagine how they feel right now.

 

[Dr. Love]

Easy, not sure why there is even discussion on something like this.

She planned this out consciously, and carried it out of her own free will. Obviously knowing what she has done, she deserves along time in jail and a lot of consoling.

She's old enough to change maybe, so give her a chance. If it doesn't work there's always euthanasia one good way to rid the world of a wacko!

 

[Osloq]

In Australia in the eyes of the courts I think you are seen as an adult at the age of 16, especially in murder cases, so I don't think it's much of a stretch that a 15 year old would be in enough control to be classed as an adult, considering how girls reach puberty before boys. This is one of those cases that I hear about and just die a little inside. No one gained anything from this and two young girls have lost their lives: one is dead and the other will be in a correctional facility for decades. Fuck it, I'm going to go watch some Tom and Jerry or something.

 

[Sad Robot]

Justice need not have a practical effect on crime rates to be legitimate.

What?

Justice, stated simply is the Enforcement of what people deserve, and a cannot think of something would make her deserve more than death.

So a knee-jerk reaction is better than, say, statistical analysis and careful ethical consideration?


EDIT: Surely it is obvious that people don't "deserve" anything, that the legal system is there to protect people from other people, and perhaps in some cases themselves, not for the emotional satisfaction of the bloodthirsty.