15-year old Stabs Bully 11 Times at Bus Stop, Gets Away With It

[Thyunda]

-snip-

Nah, a conviction makes a world of difference. Let's say the kid got hired, and later on he was found to have a conviction. He'd be out on his arse. If his manager did a Google search and found this story, but no criminal conviction, then it'd be illegal for him to fire him. A criminal conviction makes all the difference.


Also, I think you need to consider the fact the bully could have been holding on to him. You can imagine you have to get pretty close to somebody with a blade like that, well within arms reach, and maybe he simply couldn't get away. Maybe he was afraid of turning his back again and receiving another blow to a delicate part of the body.
But maybe it's because he's a fifteen year old kid with no combat training. If it were me in the situation, as I am now, with intent to kill, I'd have gone for the throat or jerked the knife up between the ribs. It would not take me twelve stabs. This kid, though? He's not had the same training as me. Hell, he might not have even had videogame logic to go off. Maybe he thought a three inch blade couldn't kill anybody. Either way, I can't find any reason to punish him.
The community already learned something from this. Bullying never ends well.

I had actually meant a Google search before hiring him (I heard some employers do that now) but you're right, a conviction would make a huge deal of difference.

And you have in fact managed to sway me in the boy's favour here. I don't really know enough about the situation to judge.
And I have to ask if you don't mind, what training do you have?

Not much. Tae kwon do. Was taught about pressure points and how to immobilise somebody, and of course the places to avoid if you don't want to kill somebody. Also ex-servicemen are a well of information for that sort of stuff.
If I punch somebody in the body, for some reason my fist strikes them beneath the sternum each and every time. I don't do it on purpose. I think I've practiced it so often it's become muscle-memory, and I physically can't punch anywhere else on short notice. But don't worry, I've never actually put my knowledge into practice. Wouldn't hit anybody in the throat, that's just unsporting.

IF the kid had martial arts training, you can bet I'd be on the other side of the fence. We're taught how to avoid killing somebody, rather than how to kill someone, and are constantly reminded that there IS a limit. If the kid knew this stuff, then he'd have been able to stab him in pressure points and leave him bleeding but not fatally so, and twelve stabs WOULD have been excessive.

 

[Luciella]

To the people who think the kid was excessive in stabbing the bully 11 times I just want to add my two cents. I don?t know how long the bullying lasted, but I would bet it went on for quite awhile. The kid probably felt helpless, afraid, embarrassed, and useless and when he finally snapped he wanted to hurt the person who had been hurting him.

We all have limits folks, and if someone pushes us past that limit we may act out in brutal and unpredictable ways. Look at most high school shootings, most of the pupils were victims of bullying who finally had enough and wanted to get back at the people responsible. Do I agree? Of course not, but it?s hard to judge a person?s reaction when you only know a tiny bit of the story.

When reading this article title my knee jerk reaction was that 11 times was excessive. But as I said we don't know what happened between the two for it to end like this. Sadly it seems like the bully has left a lasting impact on this kid far more than words or fists could ever do. By backing him so far into a corner that the kid had to act the way he did is sure to leave some painful scars later in life.

I feel sorry for both the bullied and the bully?s family. It?s a damn shame it had to end that way.

Well said.

I myself tho agree with the kid. Everyone often takes what kids live like pretty much kids-play, while is a very serious matter. If proyected to an adult situation, the guy would be living in a way a gang is stealing his money, watching his home and beating him senseless everytime they want letting him live in fear and with no support from the police, whats the obvious answer? retaliation with a stronger force that the perpetrators have.

I do remeber some years ago there was this case where a couple of robbers got into a house, tide up the entire family threatening with guns and proceeded to clean the house. But it happened that the sone of the family was a black belt in korean sword, by al means a trained killer with the sword. He managed to free himself, went and grab the sword he practiced with to cut bamboo and proceded to kill off the robbers, one got beheaded other minus one arm and stabbed in the chest.

The fam called the police then and they kept the black belt guy in prision one night yet the media went crazy about it and why he was just defending his family and the guy was realesed with no charges what so ever.

I see the kid that stabbed the bully the same way i see the black bet guy who used the letal force he was trained to use in order to survive another day.

 

[Treblaine]

Crazy. But parents and teachers should have known this 16 year old was stalking 14 year old boys to torment and abuse them. That's more than two kids getting into a physical argument, that's sadistic. And he's old enough to drive a car at 16! A Certain amount of responsibility is assumed.

I really feel sorry for the 14 year old boy, he doesn't deserve to got to prison as he clearly didn't want this and really how can he be responsible for his actions under that kind of sustained abuse, intimidation and threats from an older boy? Really, he should NEVER have been put in that situation of having to make judgement on defending himself.

 

[Treblaine]

I wonder if the bully had just beaten the shit out of the kid who never fought bad and left, saying he'd give him another beating later, if ANYONE would care?

This problem didn't start with the stabbing, it started with the bullying that goes unreported, and unopposed.

 

[Burn2Feel]

Self defence is pulling the knife and maybe making a swipe at an attack if the persist. Stabbing 11 times is in no way accidental or without full awareness of your actions. However, the adrenaline rush he would've gained from standing up to this guy would be something to factor.

I think no punishment at all is rediculous, but a reduced sentence is the best option; the kid acted in self defence, but took it too far.

Self defense is protecting yourself until the threat is no longer present.

11 knife swings with a knife that small would happen very quickly. In seconds. Far too fast for a person in the heat of action to think about. The kid was scared and had already tried running away. He feared for his life, as is reasonable, given the stories of bullies putting kids in wheelchairs and such, and given the age difference.

Once you start swinging, you will not stop until the threat is neutralized. Period. If you say otherwise, you are lying. There is no other way around it. You would not be able to pull a knife and make a "swipe" at an attacker. That is not self-defense, nor would a normal person be able to do it if they really feared for their safety. You have only one thought in that situation: Survive.

How can several seconds of adrenaline-fueled defense possibly be "[taking] it too far"? You're either completely dilusioned about how fearing for your life feels or how quickly a fight can pass, or you have a very warped few of how long it would take to stab/swipe 11 times (hint: not long, practically as long as normal human reaction time).

TL;DR: You don't know what self defense is or how a person reacts under stress, and that 11 stabs would happen before the victim even knew what was going on.

Just to point out, I am well aware of how people react in such a situation as I've been the victim of an assault and a mugging. As such, I think I have the experience to make the judgement. Adrenaline can come through in either fight or flight decisions; this case he chose fight and so removed the stressor. I personally chose flight in my situations, which is why my views are of such.

A swipe or stab can be a quick or slow as the weilder makes it. If he was used to handling such a weapon, we can assume that it would be very quick. If that's the case, then he would be well aware of what he was doing and where he was aiming; a small blade like that would jarr against bone very easily. If he wasn't trained, it means that the bully was totally open to the attack.

Self-defense can come in many forms, when you say "neutralised" that can be from a broken nose to knocking the attacker out to, in this case, death. You can't justify murder in self-defence if it took 11 attempts to "neutralise" the threat.

 

[Saltarius]

It's one thing if this bully started hurting the kid physically and then the knife came out. But from what I understand, he pretty much walked up and shanked him.

 

[SenseOfTumour]

Yeah, I'm sure I'm not adding much, but I'll say even with a poodle or other such 'non-threatening dog', you mistreat it on a daily basis, and one day you're going to end up with blood streaming from a bite wound.

I have full belief the kid was being harrassed on a daily basis for years, and saw no way out, and while maybe he did only carry the knife in the hope of making him back of, something just snapped in his head, and the reason it snapped is the overwhelming pressure of the abuse laid on him.

I just wish stories like this would get more coverage, then all we need is for bullied kids to start acting a bit mental, and the bullies might start backing off in case they wake up one day in a basement wearing some kind of 'Saw' inspired trap.

Ok, maybe I'm exaggerating, but if I was a bully, and I read- I mean, if someone read that article to me, I'd maybe consider that maybe I'm working towards getting a stabbing of my own.
There again, I doubt many bullies are blessed with much in the way of reasoning skills or thought.

400 stabs over a period of hours would be extreme. 11 is a few seconds insanity released after being built up for months or years. I feel sorry for the kid's parents, on both sides, as I doubt either side knew. On the bright side, a place of work in 10 year's time is going to be a nicer place, lacking one bully, as they tend to grow and be absolute fuckknuckles in the workplace too, and if anything, encouraged by management as they 'get results', and by then they've learned to hide their actions.

 

[Nielas]

It's one thing if this bully started hurting the kid physically and then the knife came out. But from what I understand, he pretty much walked up and shanked him.

Where the heck are you getting that? The story this discussion is based on clearly says that the bully chased the kid and started hitting him in the head from behind. Only then the knife came out.

 

[irishda]

"Force must be met with force, even deadly force."

No. No it doesn't. There's always a way out. There's always an escape. Murder is never one of them. He got punched in the head so he stabbed the guy 11 times? On what planet is this OK? Bullies need to be dealt with by the person being bullied, on that I agree wholeheartedly. But the manner in which they are dealt with is equally important. What this article tells me is that this kid has no sense of restraint. You need to fight back against a bully; you certainly don't need to kill him.

And, no I don't feel any sympathy just because this kid was picked on. We've all been picked on in some manner. Learning how to deal with it is part of growing up. You realize that some people's opinions aren't important to you. You learn that sometimes violence is the only way to defend yourself. And, hopefully, you learn that part of defending yourself means having the restraint to understand when it's over. But now some OTHER KID is dead because neither one of them recognized restraint. And where I'm standing from, only one of those kids was holding the knife.

 

[senordesol]

"Force must be met with force, even deadly force."

No. No it doesn't. There's always a way out. There's always an escape. Murder is never one of them. He got punched in the head so he stabbed the guy 11 times? On what planet is this OK? Bullies need to be dealt with by the person being bullied, on that I agree wholeheartedly. But the manner in which they are dealt with is equally important. What this article tells me is that this kid has no sense of restraint. You need to fight back against a bully; you certainly don't need to kill him.

And, no I don't feel any sympathy just because this kid was picked on. We've all been picked on in some manner. Learning how to deal with it is part of growing up. You realize that some people's opinions aren't important to you. You learn that sometimes violence is the only way to defend yourself. And, hopefully, you learn that part of defending yourself means having the restraint to understand when it's over. But now some OTHER KID is dead because neither one of them recognized restraint. And where I'm standing from, only one of those kids was holding the knife.

He has to learn to 'deal with' being followed home by a gang of thugs and assaulted for no goddamn reason? On what planet is that OK? It's real easy to armchair quarterback when it's not you fighting off a gang of people, terrified out of your mind.

 

[BrassButtons]

I personally don't think lethal force should be used, unless you yourself are in lethal danger. From the story, the bully didn't have a weapon other than his fists.

His life was in danger. The very first blow could have killed him, and there is no reason to assume similarly dangerous blows would not have been used had the fight continued. The idea that someone using their fists isn't a lethal threat is only true in the movies. In reality punches are a form of blunt-force trauma that can cause everything from minor bruises to organ damage.

I understand that a punch in the back of the head can in certain circumstances be fatal, but I don't see how that warrants twelve stabs with a knife. As people have pointed out, adrenaline will have kicked in, but I would have thought that since he had been trying to escape the whole time, he would stab him once, maybe twice and run. He stabbed the bully twelve times though,to me that seems like he decided to really go for the guy. This is based on my very limited knowledge of fights involving knives however.

First, I was responding to your statement that lethal force should only be a response to lethal danger. There was lethal danger, so lethal force was justified.

Second, do you have any actual data to support the claim that 12 stabs is excessive for a fight like this?

 

[renegade7]

Do I condone what he did? No. Do I understand it? Yes.

It's not a self-defense issue. It's a case of a kid who has been pushed over the edge. Bullying, especially if it's really long term (like for your entire school life) can seriously mess kids up. When you dread getting up in the morning and going to school, when you have no friends, and when you spend 8 hours a day in terror of some kid who is committed to ruining your life while the teachers do nothing to stop it (and in fact may join in as well, in some cases) and even punish YOU for "instigating"- that's the life that victims may have to endure. This kid was quite likely literally scared out of his mind of this bully.

Speaking from experience, all I have to say is that this bully got exactly what he deserved.

I also agree the kid needs therapy, to repair the damage done by years of torment.

 

[irishda]

"Force must be met with force, even deadly force."

No. No it doesn't. There's always a way out. There's always an escape. Murder is never one of them. He got punched in the head so he stabbed the guy 11 times? On what planet is this OK? Bullies need to be dealt with by the person being bullied, on that I agree wholeheartedly. But the manner in which they are dealt with is equally important. What this article tells me is that this kid has no sense of restraint. You need to fight back against a bully; you certainly don't need to kill him.

And, no I don't feel any sympathy just because this kid was picked on. We've all been picked on in some manner. Learning how to deal with it is part of growing up. You realize that some people's opinions aren't important to you. You learn that sometimes violence is the only way to defend yourself. And, hopefully, you learn that part of defending yourself means having the restraint to understand when it's over. But now some OTHER KID is dead because neither one of them recognized restraint. And where I'm standing from, only one of those kids was holding the knife.

He has to learn to 'deal with' being followed home by a gang of thugs and assaulted for no goddamn reason? On what planet is that OK? It's real easy to armchair quarterback when it's not you fighting off a gang of people, terrified out of your mind.

A gang of people? I thought it was one other kid, with (according to the article) "two other male teens taunting him". That sounds like one kid trying to start a fight with another kid, with other kids yelling and screaming as kids do when there's a fight. Ask yourself what happens when he meets another bully? There's lots of bad people in this world. How you deal with bad people is exactly what differentiates between you being a good person and another bad person. Stabbing an unarmed person, even if they're trying to fight you, just meant he was either too scared to stand up for himself or he did have malice on his mind. Either way, I share no sympathy with him.

 

[Orks da best]

I had a younger brother who boys tried to bully. I was always the one to protect him.

If you think "11 times is a little much" then you don't understand the fear and rage involved. It's quite literally "Fight of Flight" - what you always hear about.

I've never stabbed a person, but when I was younger I'd wail on them until I was pulled off or snapped back into reality. You're only thought is, "hit them hit them don't let them hit you".

There's also the fear of them getting back up. That boy was probably larger then him, and stronger. Like myself, if they got back up and weren't in enough pain, then I'd get my ass handed to me triple servings.

I don't think it was right - hell what I did wasn't right either - but sometimes there doesn't seem like any other option.

Edit: Wait, he's 15 years-old? I thought I read he was 13. That's a whole different story.

that worse thing i have pyscial done to aperson was once i stabbed a friend of big brother in the arm with pencil, it got in deep too. thankfully he was ok, I wonder now why i stabbed him in the first place.

 

[Hungry Donner]

The kid tried to avoid the situation (by taking a different route and walking away from the bully), and he was hit first, so I don't have any problem considering this self defense. I also don't have a problem with the fact that he kept stabbing once he defended himself - that's adrenaline.

But why did Jorge attack Dylan with a knife? I realize it wasn't a large weapon, but it was still a weapon. If Jorge had punched Dylan and killed him I wouldn't give the matter a second thought - Jorge was provoked, the death was accidental, and while I don't think Dylan deserved this I would say it was his fault.

But given that Jorge escalated the matter I think letting him off the hook is a bit much. A probation period with him seeing a psychologist or therapist would seem reasonable. (More to make sure Jorge is OK rather than as punishment.)

 

[senordesol]

A gang of people? I thought it was one other kid, with (according to the article) "two other male teens taunting him". That sounds like one kid trying to start a fight with another kid, with other kids yelling and screaming as kids do when there's a fight. Ask yourself what happens when he meets another bully? There's lots of bad people in this world. How you deal with bad people is exactly what differentiates between you being a good person and another bad person. Stabbing an unarmed person, even if they're trying to fight you, just meant he was either too scared to stand up for himself or he did have malice on his mind. Either way, I share no sympathy with him.

Ok so one guy is kicking your ass while the rest of his posse turn out to cheer him on. You realize that if the kid was seriously hurt by the bully, they'd ALL be responsible, right?

What differentiates a 'good' person and a 'bad' person is one who seeks to harm, terrorize, victimize or otherwise cause conflict and one who doesn't.

The kid tried to avoid conflict, and was assaulted anyway. Whether he was scared or angry doesn't change the fact that everyone would have gotten to go home unmolested had his assailant decided not to attack him. That he was armed, and his attacker wasn't just means he's smarter.

 

[irishda]

A gang of people? I thought it was one other kid, with (according to the article) "two other male teens taunting him". That sounds like one kid trying to start a fight with another kid, with other kids yelling and screaming as kids do when there's a fight. Ask yourself what happens when he meets another bully? There's lots of bad people in this world. How you deal with bad people is exactly what differentiates between you being a good person and another bad person. Stabbing an unarmed person, even if they're trying to fight you, just meant he was either too scared to stand up for himself or he did have malice on his mind. Either way, I share no sympathy with him.

Ok so one guy is kicking your ass while the rest of his posse turn out to cheer him on. You realize that if the kid was seriously hurt by the bully, they'd ALL be responsible, right?

What differentiates a 'good' person and a 'bad' person is one who seeks to harm, terrorize, victimize or otherwise cause conflict and one who doesn't.

The kid tried to avoid conflict, and was assaulted anyway. Whether he was scared or angry doesn't change the fact that everyone would have gotten to go home unmolested had his assailant decided not to attack him. That he was armed, and his attacker wasn't just means he's smarter.

Isn't someone just as bad a person if they outright kill someone who doesn't have the power to kill them, even if they're under duress? Why didn't the boy slash with the knife, which would've been more defensive moves that were also less likely to be fatal. Stabbing is a far more aggressive action that suggests he attacked with the knife, rather than simply defended himself with it.

And the actions of others does not excuse his actions. He was molested, yes, but he was the one who had the knife, and he was the one who killed an unarmed boy.

 

[senordesol]

Isn't someone just as bad a person if they outright kill someone who doesn't have the power to kill them, even if they're under duress? Why didn't the boy slash with the knife, which would've been more defensive moves that were also less likely to be fatal. Stabbing is a far more aggressive action that suggests he attacked with the knife, rather than simply defended himself with it.

And the actions of others does not excuse his actions. He was molested, yes, but he was the one who had the knife, and he was the one who killed an unarmed boy.

Hands and feet alone have the power to kill, so your question is not pertinent to the issue at hand. Suffice it to say, being unarmed did not mean the bully did not have the power to kill his victim.

Stabbing is quicker and more effective than slashing. It's a great way to stop a threat who's in close. It is not incumbent upon the victim to consider the general safety and welfare of his attacker. Once engaged in a fight he did not initiate; his one and only concern is: stop the fight. If his attacker dies in the process, that is his attacker's own fault as the instigator.

Stabbing an unarmed attacker doesn't make you a 'bad' person, it just makes you the most effective combatant.

 

[BrassButtons]

Isn't someone just as bad a person if they outright kill someone who doesn't have the power to kill them

Just because someone is unarmed doesn't mean they can't do lethal damage. The very first punch the bully threw could have been fatal. And a knife versus an unarmed opponent is not necessarily going to be a one-sided fight.

Stabbing is a far more aggressive action that suggests he attacked with the knife, rather than simply defended himself with it.

Aggressive actions can be used to defend. Indeed, anything other than blocking can be used to attack or defend. What separates them is context.

 

[Saltarius]

Mistake on my part then. Probably shouldn't have been so TL;DR with the original post.