15-year old Stabs Bully 11 Times at Bus Stop, Gets Away With It

[Wilfy]

Yeah, the bully probably deserved to have the crap out of him, but surely stabbing him 11 times is a bit much? I mean, I would have thought the first stab is self defence, because I don't think many bullies would keep going after being stabbed once. But the other ten stabs? That sounds like the guy snapped and killed him. He should have got some time at least.

Nah, man, look. Stab your bully once, and he's no longer fighting to hurt you, he's fighting to survive. Adrenaline kicks in on both sides. The kid keeps stabbing until the bully stops moving. Even though the first five stabs might have been fatal, people don't just die outright. It's a total myth - stab somebody in the chest, they start bleeding. Sometimes people can fight on, before collapsing and dying. Sometimes they'll fall to the ground and slowly die there.
In this case, we have a tiny blade. I bet you the bully didn't fall until the eleventh stab, and that's why he stopped at eleven.

That's a good point about the adrenaline, I admittedly didn't consider that. And was it a tiny blade, because, and I may be wrong in thinking this, but isn't a pocket knife like a pen knife? Because those have six-inch blades on, which I wouldn't class as a tiny blade.
I'm not saying he should get a murder sentence, just maybe a year or so.

 

[Erttheking]

I think that it was good that he stepped up to his bully but...12 times? holy shit. That is way past self defense.

The kid is a murderer. He didn't try to scare the bully away, he didn't try to wound the bully and run away. He didn't call the cops or parents from the bus (apparently he had reason to believe that he would die so if he or anybody else on the bus had a cell phone he should have) instead he stabbed a boy a dozen times in the chest, and twice in the heart.

You do know that the kid was probably in a panicked frenzy and everything happened in the space of about fifteen seconds right? You do know that it was probably over before he knew it, right? And you do know that if it was scared that he wouldn't be thinking logically, he would A. get away from the bully or B. defend himself right?

 

[asinann]

Good job not telling the whole story. Like the part where Jorge Saavedra got off the bus a stop early to try and avoid the "fight" that his bully had scheduled with his friends watching at Jorge Saavedra's bus stop only to have the bullies follow him off the bus. Or the part where Jorge Saavedra tried to get away first. Or the part where under Florida law, you can legally stand up for yourself with equal force, and in the case of a 5 on 1 fight, lethal force is justified under federal law. Guess you wanted to completely disregard the busload of eyewitnesses too.

Maybe if more kids stood up for themselves with a knife to the bully when bulllied (because the schools won't stop it, but they will tell the kid that it's his own fault for making himself a target,) they wouldn't be going on shooting sprees and we wouldn't have problems with bullied.

 

[Ironic Pirate]

Neither do I subscribe to the silly American logic that you can just kill anyone who gets in your way.

Way to stereotype an entire country based on one person's actions...because clearly we all believe that.

Also, I think killing is wrong (and I'm American, SAY WHAT?) although, it is extremely difficult if not impossible to sympathize with this bully. I say, it happened, bullies should learn from this and so should schools, and not try to change what's already happened because it's in the past.

Quote got messed up, some other guy said that. I also called him out on it.

 

[TotalerKrieger]

I'm not saying he should get a murder sentence, just maybe a year or so.

Why? A jail sentence would probably have a hugely negative impact on the kid, increasing the likelihood he carries out violent or criminal actions in the future. Why does he deserve any sort of punishment? I am curious about your reasoning.

Should he really be punished simply because he used lethal force to protect his own life/physical well being.

Nation-states use lethal force all the time (police shooting an assailant posing a threat to them, military actions, etc), why should citizens be placed at the mercy of the thugs and murderers, with only the police at hand to ineffectively show after you're already brain-damaged or dead.

 

[Wilfy]

I get your point about the negative impact and everything. I personally don't think lethal force should be used, unless you yourself are in lethal danger. From the story, the bully didn't have a weapon other than his fists. Obviously I wasn't there and there probably are factors that I can't see, but I would have thought simply pulling out the knife and showing the bully he was prepared to use it would be enough. Bullies might be dicks, but the majority of people know a lost fight when they see one.
As for the jail sentence, I think that letting him off absolutely free is sending a bad message. If one kid can get away with killing a bully who hit them in the back of the head, surely others will think they can get away with it too. Maybe due to the negative impacts you mentioned jail is not the right answer, but some sort of punishment such as community service is necessary just to show killing is never okay, in my opinion.

 

[Cenzton]

I think that it was good that he stepped up to his bully but...12 times? holy shit. That is way past self defense.

The kid is a murderer. He didn't try to scare the bully away, he didn't try to wound the bully and run away. He didn't call the cops or parents from the bus (apparently he had reason to believe that he would die so if he or anybody else on the bus had a cell phone he should have) instead he stabbed a boy a dozen times in the chest, and twice in the heart.

Do you really think calling the cops or his parents would've actually achieved anything? Like the cops were going to be at the bus in a jiffy, or his parents would've been able to do anything remotely, not to mention how much more shit he would've taken for calling the po-po or his folks.

And how do exactly do you think he would've been able to "scare off" the bully? By making veiled threats? Showing a pocketknife? Please, get real.

As far as the multiple stabs, when someone comes up and punches you in the head, your first thought probably isn't going to be hey, lemme just nick him with this here knife. You're pissed, you're scared, and all you want is it for it to end.

There's some arguments that could easily be made against the guy doing the stabbing, sure. But yours? Think about it logically first, please.

 

[Burn2Feel]

Self defence is pulling the knife and maybe making a swipe at an attack if the persist. Stabbing 11 times is in no way accidental or without full awareness of your actions. However, the adrenaline rush he would've gained from standing up to this guy would be something to factor.

I think no punishment at all is rediculous, but a reduced sentence is the best option; the kid acted in self defence, but took it too far.

 

[TotalerKrieger]

Wilfy:

I can understand your point about sending a bad message to children regarding consequences. It is very true that most kids do not have the mental faculties/maturity (brain development, raging hormones, etc) to fully understand/rationalize a given situation. I guess I was framing this in my mind as involving two adults, despite obviosly involving children. I don't like the idea of punishing the individual I see as the victim, but perhaps it is a cost-benefit situation for the community.

 

[Thyunda]

Yeah, the bully probably deserved to have the crap out of him, but surely stabbing him 11 times is a bit much? I mean, I would have thought the first stab is self defence, because I don't think many bullies would keep going after being stabbed once. But the other ten stabs? That sounds like the guy snapped and killed him. He should have got some time at least.

Nah, man, look. Stab your bully once, and he's no longer fighting to hurt you, he's fighting to survive. Adrenaline kicks in on both sides. The kid keeps stabbing until the bully stops moving. Even though the first five stabs might have been fatal, people don't just die outright. It's a total myth - stab somebody in the chest, they start bleeding. Sometimes people can fight on, before collapsing and dying. Sometimes they'll fall to the ground and slowly die there.
In this case, we have a tiny blade. I bet you the bully didn't fall until the eleventh stab, and that's why he stopped at eleven.

That's a good point about the adrenaline, I admittedly didn't consider that. And was it a tiny blade, because, and I may be wrong in thinking this, but isn't a pocket knife like a pen knife? Because those have six-inch blades on, which I wouldn't class as a tiny blade.
I'm not saying he should get a murder sentence, just maybe a year or so.

A pen knife blade is three inches. In this country, a three inch blade is legal, so you won't be arrested for carrying a pen knife. However, a pocket flick knife is closer to six, so those are heavily illegal.
Even so, you have to ask, what are you punishing? A year in prison might teach him that murder is wrong, but we can both agree that it wasn't his intention to kill the guy, he just wanted to incapacitate him, and the human fight-or-flight response makes that incredibly difficult. If you think you're gonna die, you'll do whatever you can to survive, and for a guy trying to protect himself...well. You know the rest.

 

[Jabberwock xeno]

He got nothing?

I understand no jail, self defense, a minor, etc, but he at least be made to undergoe pysch. evaluation and some classes or something.

 

[Wilfy]

Yeah, the bully probably deserved to have the crap out of him, but surely stabbing him 11 times is a bit much? I mean, I would have thought the first stab is self defence, because I don't think many bullies would keep going after being stabbed once. But the other ten stabs? That sounds like the guy snapped and killed him. He should have got some time at least.

Nah, man, look. Stab your bully once, and he's no longer fighting to hurt you, he's fighting to survive. Adrenaline kicks in on both sides. The kid keeps stabbing until the bully stops moving. Even though the first five stabs might have been fatal, people don't just die outright. It's a total myth - stab somebody in the chest, they start bleeding. Sometimes people can fight on, before collapsing and dying. Sometimes they'll fall to the ground and slowly die there.
In this case, we have a tiny blade. I bet you the bully didn't fall until the eleventh stab, and that's why he stopped at eleven.

That's a good point about the adrenaline, I admittedly didn't consider that. And was it a tiny blade, because, and I may be wrong in thinking this, but isn't a pocket knife like a pen knife? Because those have six-inch blades on, which I wouldn't class as a tiny blade.
I'm not saying he should get a murder sentence, just maybe a year or so.

A pen knife blade is three inches. In this country, a three inch blade is legal, so you won't be arrested for carrying a pen knife. However, a pocket flick knife is closer to six, so those are heavily illegal.
Even so, you have to ask, what are you punishing? A year in prison might teach him that murder is wrong, but we can both agree that it wasn't his intention to kill the guy, he just wanted to incapacitate him, and the human fight-or-flight response makes that incredibly difficult. If you think you're gonna die, you'll do whatever you can to survive, and for a guy trying to protect himself...well. You know the rest.

Ah, I'm getting confused between different types of knife then, I was going to say I was surprised a six-inch blade wasn't illegal.
Since it clearly wasn't his intention, maybe something less than jail time, just so the message given out isn't that he can get off free with it, is necessary, such as community service (I don't actually know if they have community service in the States, if so then that).

 

[chadachada123]

Self defence is pulling the knife and maybe making a swipe at an attack if the persist. Stabbing 11 times is in no way accidental or without full awareness of your actions. However, the adrenaline rush he would've gained from standing up to this guy would be something to factor.

I think no punishment at all is rediculous, but a reduced sentence is the best option; the kid acted in self defence, but took it too far.

Self defense is protecting yourself until the threat is no longer present.

11 knife swings with a knife that small would happen very quickly. In seconds. Far too fast for a person in the heat of action to think about. The kid was scared and had already tried running away. He feared for his life, as is reasonable, given the stories of bullies putting kids in wheelchairs and such, and given the age difference.

Once you start swinging, you will not stop until the threat is neutralized. Period. If you say otherwise, you are lying. There is no other way around it. You would not be able to pull a knife and make a "swipe" at an attacker. That is not self-defense, nor would a normal person be able to do it if they really feared for their safety. You have only one thought in that situation: Survive.

How can several seconds of adrenaline-fueled defense possibly be "[taking] it too far"? You're either completely dilusioned about how fearing for your life feels or how quickly a fight can pass, or you have a very warped few of how long it would take to stab/swipe 11 times (hint: not long, practically as long as normal human reaction time).

TL;DR: You don't know what self defense is or how a person reacts under stress, and that 11 stabs would happen before the victim even knew what was going on.

 

[BrassButtons]

Yea I wasn't clear in my post. I did not write that as well as I thought I did.
He got punched in the head, which I will admit can be lethal, but at that moment it was once and the likelihood of it being lethal, is not likely.

So the fight starts with a potentially killing blow, and Jorge should have assumed that was going to be the end of it? Why?

Getting hit once in the head with a fist, to me, does not mean that I can stab the guy 12 times and get away with it scot-free.

Why not? Dylan was assaulting Jorge with potentially lethal force. For Jorge knew Dylan was trying to kill him. That seems like a scenario where lethal force is justified as self-defense.

Jorge could have done a lot of other things BEFORE he resorted to the knife.

Such as? Keep in mind that he had already made it known on the bus that he was armed (so word had likely reached the bullies), and he made two separate attempts to leave the situation (once by getting off the bus early, and then again after the assault started).

I'm only trying to find some neutral ground here.

That's only worthwhile if the neutral position is correct.

First off the kid was carrying the knife before hand making this pre-meditated.

It was pre-meditated self-defense. We know this because A) he already knew bullies were planning to assault him, so it's reasonable that he would arm himself, and B) he made multiple attempts to avoid the situation, even after the assault started. You may as well say that any time a cop shoots someone it's pre-meditated since they always carry guns in case the worst should happen.

That's why I said maybe community service or just send him to a psychiatrist to relieve whatever mental stress that may occurred.
Not saying he's a criminal.

If he isn't a criminal, what grounds are there for punishing him?

And as for the psychiatrist, that's useful only if he wants to go through with it. I would hope that he does, because he probably would benefit from it, but there's no reason for a judge to order him to do so. You cannot force psychiatric treatment anymore than you can force an education on someone.

I live in Anchorage, Alaska.

Awesome. My fiancee has family in Homer. The pictures from there are stunning.

 

[Thyunda]

Yeah, the bully probably deserved to have the crap out of him, but surely stabbing him 11 times is a bit much? I mean, I would have thought the first stab is self defence, because I don't think many bullies would keep going after being stabbed once. But the other ten stabs? That sounds like the guy snapped and killed him. He should have got some time at least.

Nah, man, look. Stab your bully once, and he's no longer fighting to hurt you, he's fighting to survive. Adrenaline kicks in on both sides. The kid keeps stabbing until the bully stops moving. Even though the first five stabs might have been fatal, people don't just die outright. It's a total myth - stab somebody in the chest, they start bleeding. Sometimes people can fight on, before collapsing and dying. Sometimes they'll fall to the ground and slowly die there.
In this case, we have a tiny blade. I bet you the bully didn't fall until the eleventh stab, and that's why he stopped at eleven.

That's a good point about the adrenaline, I admittedly didn't consider that. And was it a tiny blade, because, and I may be wrong in thinking this, but isn't a pocket knife like a pen knife? Because those have six-inch blades on, which I wouldn't class as a tiny blade.
I'm not saying he should get a murder sentence, just maybe a year or so.

A pen knife blade is three inches. In this country, a three inch blade is legal, so you won't be arrested for carrying a pen knife. However, a pocket flick knife is closer to six, so those are heavily illegal.
Even so, you have to ask, what are you punishing? A year in prison might teach him that murder is wrong, but we can both agree that it wasn't his intention to kill the guy, he just wanted to incapacitate him, and the human fight-or-flight response makes that incredibly difficult. If you think you're gonna die, you'll do whatever you can to survive, and for a guy trying to protect himself...well. You know the rest.

Ah, I'm getting confused between different types of knife then, I was going to say I was surprised a six-inch blade wasn't illegal.
Since it clearly wasn't his intention, maybe something less than jail time, just so the message given out isn't that he can get off free with it, is necessary, such as community service (I don't actually know if they have community service in the States, if so then that).

Community service is a maybe...but then we have to remember that this is a human being we're talking about. I know I sound all 'you can't be mean to people', but I'm really not. The kid defended himself against a bully who clearly had no concern for a fair fight, and if you give him any kind of legal punishment, then you've crippled his career prospects and damned him to a lifetime of condemnation. Employers don't give a shit about the circumstances of the attack. Soon as they see any form of violent crime on a CV, it goes out the window. I think the knowledge that his loss of control resulted in the death of another person would serve him well as a lesson, and that we should walk away from this particular case.

 

[Turtleboy1017]

ITT: People siding with assholes.

How about siding with neither? Bullying is bad, I've been bullied a lot when I was a kid, to the point where I was afraid of going out when there were people around; but I wasn't going to fucking kill anyone for it.

But sure, go ahead with that "If you're not with me, then you are my ENEMY!" thing that seems so common online. Just because I don't side with one guy that doesn't mean I sided with the other.

Eh. Bullies have been killing innocent victims for centuries. I guess the innocent victims wanted a turn. Or something. Not so innocent any more, are ya?

 

[BrassButtons]

I personally don't think lethal force should be used, unless you yourself are in lethal danger. From the story, the bully didn't have a weapon other than his fists.

His life was in danger. The very first blow could have killed him, and there is no reason to assume similarly dangerous blows would not have been used had the fight continued. The idea that someone using their fists isn't a lethal threat is only true in the movies. In reality punches are a form of blunt-force trauma that can cause everything from minor bruises to organ damage.