179: The Battleship Final Fantasy

Ray Huling

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harhol said:
He didn't conform to the absurd post-FFXII pseudo-modernist groupthink which dictates that every game in the FF series since FFIV has been an unmitigated disaster. Genre is unacceptable! Seriously though, Cliffy B is the Tolstoy of the 21st century.

(And if the writing in FFVII is genuinely "pubescent" then the entire games industry is a waste of time.)

1) Entertainment can be both peurile and not a waste of time.

2) FFVII does not mark the height of writing in games.

3) Gears of War is written for twelve year-olds, while Final Fantasy is written for ten year-olds. This doesn't mean that I would extol the virtues of Cliffy B. I'd just call the whole thing a wash.

4) Nobody said anything about disaster.

5) Nobody said anything about genre.

6) Fans and critics have lambasted Final Fantasy since...Final Fantasy. None of this started with XII.
 

Dorian Cornelius Jasper

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As a longtime customer of the Final Fantasy franchise, I've gotta say that Ray's pretty on the money. Especially story-wise. Replaying the games after experiencing other media geared at other audiences, a lot of what I used to find moving winds up looking quaint at best, trite at worst. Thankfully, I found X and XII to be mostly on the quaint side. (Having played a lot of Western RPGs, I can at least say FFXII's story, while lacking a bit in player immersion thanks to a POV character who literally has nothing to do with the story, is at least better than Neverwinter Nights 2's and Oblivion's.)

The exception being FFT, which had a good run even through the horrible translation of the PSX original. A Final Fantasy story about historical deception, corruption, politics, ambition, loyalty, and an honorable man in an unjust world. Even quirky lines like "Surrender or die in obscurity!" couldn't take away from that. And this wasn't even a marquee title for the series. It was relegated to the sidelines as a curiosity, followed up by an Ivalice game that wasn't even a FF--Vagrant Story, which had a better and more well-told story than most Final Fantasies.

(Personally? My perfect RPG would be something like the Baldur's Gate reskinned to look less-generic fantasy and a bit more like Akihiko Yoshida's work. Because Ivalice was the only reason I kept going back to Square, and I'm a bit sad that it's become the purview of kids' games on handhelds.)

To compare the Final Fantasy series to other games in other genres, Half-Life 2's story is simpler but more stirring, especially including the Episodes released afterwards. It's the difference between "Plot" and "Narrative." Plot is the "what" of the story, Narrative is how the story is told, and in Narrative HL2 and HL2:Ep2 succeeded in ways that the Final Fantasy franchise doesn't.

I'm no professional, so it's hard for me to describe, but if RPGs are meant to be "experienced," then a good chunk of one RPG franchise was outdone by an engrossing and cinematic FPS.

As an old fan, I've something of an idea as to why Square-Enix doesn't have the same grip over my wallet as it used to. Consider the original director of FFXII, Yasumi Matsuno. He intended FFXII to be a darker story about redemption centered around an older protagonist fighting to protect a princess who didn't trust him. (And judging by that blurb, one presumes the creator of XII actually meant to cast Basch as the protagonist, and the revelation that he was NOT the murderer of the Dalmascan king was supposed to have been in doubt for more than a few hours or so--which would've made a more interesting story, too, as it's treated as a throwaway plot element in XII.) The Squeenix execs told him, no, they wanted to pander to a particular audience--young ladies who like pretty boys--and so designed Vaan by committee and had him shoehorned into a plot that was meant for other characters.

To highlight why this was a mistake, most female fans ignored the effeminate Vaan in favor of the much more charming Balthier. Who was even *more* charming dubbed in English.

And this left FFXII with a story that was slowly neutered from the director's original design to something less involving, less ambiguous, less ambitious, and less interesting than what it could have been.

From the looks of it, Yasumi Matsuno, who left on account of "health concerns" (I still wonder if Square's trying to cover up an internal conflicts there, Japanese companies are loath to admit internal problems especially when leading up to a product's release), was well aware that the Final Fantasy series seemed trying too hard to pander to as many of its fans as possible and tried to do something a bit more mature, a bit less cartoony to bring the franchise up to speed with an older target audience who grew up with Final Fantasy (one that, hey, happens to have jobs and earns its own money). And was subsequently rebuffed by corporate, who hate to take a risk when the formula's working so well.

From what I can tell, FFXIII doesn't sound like its story or design is going to break from that any time soon. It revels in being a mostly adolescent fantasy, and old fans like me have to find greener pastures elsewhere. The best young-demographic media is media that can also be appreciated by adults on their own level, but Final Fantasy doesn't seem willing to treat its audience as anything other than teens.

That's fine for Square, since it's working for them thus far, but I'm still a bit disappointed. And I find that I kind of agree with the article.

And that's why I'm no longer a Square fanboy. I'm more than willing to buy Atlus games, though--they know how to shake things up and keep things interesting.

tl;dr: Basch should've been the main character. Vaan is the scrappy sidekick at best and should've been wearing his new FFTA2 shirt from the beginning. (He just can't pull off shirtless, I'm sorry.)
 

Sylocat

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Dorian Cornelius Jasper said:
As an old fan, I've something of an idea as to why Square-Enix doesn't have the same grip over my wallet as it used to. Consider the original director of FFXII, Yasumi Matsuno. He intended FFXII to be a darker story about redemption centered around an older protagonist fighting to protect a princess who didn't trust him. (And judging by that blurb, one presumes the creator of XII actually meant to cast Basch as the protagonist, and the revelation that he was NOT the murderer of the Dalmascan king was supposed to have been in doubt for more than a few hours or so--which would've made a more interesting story, too, as it's treated as a throwaway plot element in XII.) The Squeenix execs told him, no, they wanted to pander to a particular audience--young ladies who like pretty boys--and so designed Vaan by committee and had him shoehorned into a plot that was meant for other characters.

(snip)

tl;dr: Basch should've been the main character. Vaan is the scrappy sidekick at best and should've been wearing his new FFTA2 shirt from the beginning. (He just can't pull off shirtless, I'm sorry.)
Basch WAS the main character. Vaan was The Ishmael [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheIshmael].
 

Novan Leon

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I don't agree with most of your reasoning behind the demise of Final Fantasy, but I do agree with the general principle that Final Fantasy has become way too big for it's own good and lost track of what's important. Actually, exchange "Final Fantasy" with "Square". The thing that puzzles me about Square is their negligence of intellectual properties like the "Chrono", "Mana" and "Tactics" games that were hugely successful but never received adequate follow up in my opinion.

World/Environment
Plot/Writing
Gameplay
Characters

All of these elements are important to a good JRPG. Optional grinding is an expected element to JRPG play, and it should remain that way (I, for one, like a good grind as long as it's optional such as to obtain an uber-item or defeat an uber-badguy outside of the main storyline), but each of the above elements needs to receive some attention for a JRPG to work.
 

Grampy_bone

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Ray Huling said:
harhol said:
He didn't conform to the absurd post-FFXII pseudo-modernist groupthink which dictates that every game in the FF series since FFIV has been an unmitigated disaster. Genre is unacceptable! Seriously though, Cliffy B is the Tolstoy of the 21st century.

(And if the writing in FFVII is genuinely "pubescent" then the entire games industry is a waste of time.)
1) Entertainment can be both peurile and not a waste of time.

2) FFVII does not mark the height of writing in games.

3) Gears of War is written for twelve year-olds, while Final Fantasy is written for ten year-olds. This doesn't mean that I would extol the virtues of Cliffy B. I'd just call the whole thing a wash.

4) Nobody said anything about disaster.

5) Nobody said anything about genre.

6) Fans and critics have lambasted Final Fantasy since...Final Fantasy. None of this started with XII.

Once again you insult the intelligence of every member of a fanbase you happen to disagree with. Yet by your own arguments you find the plots of final fantasy games "incoherent." If they are for kids and you are too smart to bother with them, why can't you figure them out?

Even if your basic premise holds water, i.e. the idea that an old, stagnant franchise needs to be put out to pasture on handhelds, why did you choose Final Fantasy as your main example when their are plenty of other games which fit the bill? The Dragon Quest games have a battle system and core mechanics which have remained virtually unchanged after eight installments, and their next game is being released on handhelds. By comparison each Final Fantasy game attempts to reinvent itself in some way, often featuring wildly different and experimental play mechanics.

So why all the elitist gamer-snob condescending pooh-poohing of Final Fantasy and not something else? Because Final Fantasy is popular and bashing something popular makes you "clever" and "smart" and not at all a talentless, unimaginative hack. (For Ray's benefit, in case you find this too 'incoherent,' I'm being sarcastic here.)

Remember kiddies, if you attack something just for being mainstream, you are still letting The Crowd dictate your behavior.
 

Ray Huling

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Grampy_bone said:
by your own arguments you find the plots of final fantasy games "incoherent." If they are for kids and you are too smart to bother with them, why can't you figure them out?
You're confusing 'incoherent' with 'incomprehensible'. This is a common mistake, but not excusable.

'Incoherent' means "Without logical connexion or natural sequence of ideas; inconsistent, rambling, disjointed"--which is different from "not understandable".

I both understand why FF plots are incoherent and explained why they are that way in the piece.



Grampy_bone said:
why did you choose Final Fantasy
Timeliness. The FFIV remake on DS is a relatively recent release.

It's true that many series share the troubles of FF. I'm not sure what you want me to do about that.

I suppose I'll try providing you with another definition:

exemplar, n.

[ME. exemplaire, a. OF. exemplaire: see EXAMPLAR. The mod. form is partly a descendant of this, partly an adoption of L. exemplar, -{amac}re, n., orig. neut. of exempl{amac}ris adj.: see next.]

1. A person or thing which serves as a model for imitation; an example. Formerly also, {dag}a pattern for work: cf. SAMPLER.


1432-50 tr. Higden (Rolls) I. 5 In this tyme..thexemplares of acciones spectable scholde not be patent. 1490 CAXTON Eneydos xi. (1890) 41 [Nature] hathe produced hym [Aeneas] for to make one fayer chief werke to thexemplayre of alle other. 1530 PALSGR. 157 Vne exemple, an exemplar for a woman to worke by. 1549 LATIMER Serm. bef. Edw. VI (Arb.) 109 Christ is the..patrone and the exemplar, that all preachers oughte to folowe. 1694 POMFRET Poems, Death Q. Mary 128 Him for her high exemplar she design'd. 1744 Epitaph in Brand Hist. Newcastle (1789) I. 676 His Master's presence will reward..his virtues by a more intimate converse with the great Exemplar. 1793 T. MAURICE Ind. Antiq. (1806) I. 105 It is impossible for the artist to deviate from the exemplar before him. 1875 JOWETT Plato (ed. 2) V. 25 The Republic is..the pattern of all other states and the exemplar of human life.
 

Novan Leon

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johnx61 said:
Forgive me for not reading the entire thread, but I did read the article. And I'd like to add that FF is not only a battleship, it's a sinking one at that.

I'm probably gonna raise a lot of ire by stating this, but I firmly believe that Final Fantasy VII was the pinnacle of not only the Final Fantasy Series, it was the pinnacle of the entire JRPG genre. The graphics were not the most advanced, but they seriously blew away anything we had seen from a JRPG before that point. The story was incredibly well done, despite a couple of translation errors. And while I personally don't touch any of the spinoff crap, I think there's little that detracts from the experience of it. (I also say the same of FFT, and I think that game is slightly better, but that's technically a different sub-genre.)

The problem with Final Fantasy is that everything before FFVII was cult and a niche-market, at least in the states. And every thing after FFVII could just not measure up. I loved FFVIII but hindsight has dictated to me that it was the beginning of the downard slip for Square as the game play started taking a back seat to disinteresting stories.

But another problem with FF if that until FFXI the game play never really evolved. And when it did evolve in FFXI and FFXII it was for the worse as Squeenix decided they were going to rip off Everquest and all the other Muhmorpuguhs out there. I would assume anyone who has played FFXI realizes it's a terrible MMO. About as grindtastic as one can get as it literally takes over a year to max out your character and get to the endgame. I think only Eve is more grindrific then FFXI. And FFXII took the lousy MMO play and ran with it all the way to crappyton harbor.

I also hear a lot of the indie gamer set state that SNES era FFs were the best games, and I have to disagree. The story lines were goofy and clueless. The graphics, while better then most; never really stood out as your character goofily swung it sword back and forth to strike and then the enemy simply flashed and I guess we were just supposed to imagine what it was doing to defend itself. There really isn't much more to say about old school FFs. I wouldn't call them bad games for their time, I certainly enjoyed them. But I wouldn't call them the best. Although I've noticed people who put these games on their supposed pedastals also tell me FFIX was better then FFVII, which is patently untrue IMO. But I could write an entire article on that.

The point that I'm trying to get to is that the JRPG is going the way of the Dodo which is why there doesn't seem to be that much excitement over FFXIII. The series is showing it's age and it may just be time to put the old girl down... With a shotgun.
Actually, for those of us who were around prior to FFVII, FFVI and Chrono Trigger were the best JRPG's ever made. FFVII was OK in comparison, but never quite reached that level. I think most people have such a high opinion of FFVII because it was their first Final Fantasy, the PSX having a new generational user base than the old 16-bit platforms.

I would also like to point out that there have been more JRPG's released for consoles in the last two years than there have been in a long time. I think part of the reason that good JRPG's have been missing for so many years is the rise of internet gaming. Everyone has been playing around with online technologies for the last eight years or so and just now are things beginning to settle down and equilibrium is returning with a shift back to traditional JRPG's.

That's my theory anyways.
 

Lvl 64 Klutz

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I'm confused why when trying to show that the dialogue doesn't match up to the art style of the series these days, you quoted the very title you were trying to point out as the pinnacle of the series. Why not pick a quote from FFXII? I'm sure you'd be able to find one, even though I personally think the dialogue in FFXII was one of it's redeeming factors.

Also, that paragraph you used to describe why the plot of Final Fantasy IV is "considered the best" lists all the reasons why I think the plot is one of the worst in the series. It's like I learned in a layout course I took this semester: If you do one thing enough times, it starts to become corny. In this case, it's so true. The whole plot seemed to be focused on a brainwashed chain of command, and the constant "Aha! You're the true villain!" moments got extremely boring by the end of the game. As did the "noble suicides."

I grow weary of the series myself, but I felt like the argument you have presented is weak and full of disconnected ramblings about why Final Fantasy IV is so much better than every other title. In the end, I didn't really understand any link to your opening statement about battleships being at the peak of their kind while being obsolete.
 

Dorian Cornelius Jasper

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Sylocat said:
Basch WAS the main character. Vaan was The Ishmael [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheIshmael].
Well if you put it like that, then writing an Ishmael in was probably not the best move on Square's part. From my playthrough, it kind of dampened the emotional impact of the story by keeping it relatively impersonal.

And John, I'll at least agree with you on FFT being better than the main FF series.
 

TsunamiWombat

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Dorian Cornelius Jasper said:
Sylocat said:
Basch WAS the main character. Vaan was The Ishmael [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheIshmael].
Well if you put it like that, then writing an Ishmael in was probably not the best move on Square's part. From my playthrough, it kind of dampened the emotional impact of the story by keeping it relatively impersonal.

And John, I'll at least agree with you on FFT being better than the main FF series.
I 110% agree with you. I also had no idea there was that sort of conflict over FFXII's story. Thats sad. it always struck me as odd that they just threw away the whole "Basch killed the king" storyline. I had actually been expecting that it WAS Basch who killed the king, but he did it for a very good reason, ex. The King was going to surrender the kingdom, or had infact been working for the Empire all along. At the very least they could've played with Vaan's hatred towards Basch over his brother for longer.

But no.

I got about as far as rescuing the princess from the airship and the judges before all of my interest was used up. It felt too much like an MMO with no people, and the story wasn't gripping me. HELL, remember in Xenogears when you KILLED EVERYONE IN YOUR VILLAGE AND ALL OF YOUR LOVED ONES? And then one of your best freinds COMES for you, to beat the hell out of you, for killing his sister? Did they curtail that? No. They milked that wangst for all it was worth and it was good damnit. It's a little sad when you get beat by a Mecha-Opera on the PS2, Squenix.

On the other hand, FFT... ahh FFT. That was some great stuff there. Admittedly it kind of lost it as soon as the Zodiac Demons entered the picture. That game would've been 100x better had it just been about the human drama of the lion war- spare me the apocolyptic demons, give me the Duke of Silverberry Poisening Balzag to take his place and lead the blahblabhalbah my brain just melted.

That game came with a dictionary of characters for a reason.
 

GloatingSwine

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Dorian Cornelius Jasper said:
Sylocat said:
Basch WAS the main character. Vaan was The Ishmael [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheIshmael].
Well if you put it like that, then writing an Ishmael in was probably not the best move on Square's part. From my playthrough, it kind of dampened the emotional impact of the story by keeping it relatively impersonal.

And John, I'll at least agree with you on FFT being better than the main FF series.
It's odd that you complain about playing as The Ishmael in Final Fantasy XII, but when you play as the exact same role in Final Fantasy Tactics (No, don't fool yourself, Delita is the main character, Ramza is not), it's alright...


They milked that wangst for all it was worth and it was good damnit.
Xenogears overplayed it's Wangst almost as badly as Evangelion. Also, barring the controlled level progression for Gear battles meaning that grinding couldn't unbalance the combat, it was one of Square's worst games of the Wangst era on the PS1.
 

Novan Leon

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johnx61 said:
I hate the argument that so many people make that if FFVII is the best game in the series, in your opinion, then you must never have played any of the ones prior to it, or you played FFVII first and then the SNES cavalcade afterwards. I'm sorry, but that is just not true.

I started Final Fantasy with the very first installment. I enjoyed it quite a bit cause I was a fan of tabletop gaming back then and many computerized D&D knockoffs before FF were pretty cheesy. I played FFIV and FFVI when they were released with the infamous misnumberings and I did like them, a lot. But I, personally was more drawn in to FFVII. It was better written, had a looser feel in exploration, and dropped the blocky 90 degree angle dungeons that I found to be really lame in just about every JRPG I had played before FFVII. It also didn't throw the story into the shredder at the mid point like FFVI did and it had characters I could relate to and genuinely liked as opposed to CT where I found the characters to be very cliche and poorly developed. And it didn't rely on overused and reused plot points, like FFIV.

I'm getting off track though. I didn't start with FFVII and it's my favorite of the main series, and I know a lot of people who would say the same who also didn't start with it. Saying that anyone who likes FFVII best must have played it first is a blanket assumption and it's just wrong.
It is a generalization, but I wouldn't say it's an incorrect one. For the majority of the people I've spoken to, if FFVII wasn't their first, it was the first that they actually took seriously. Granted, I'm not saying it's that way for everyone though. You're obviously an exception.
 

Novan Leon

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harhol said:
No, but neither is it "incoherent", "pubescent" or "written for ten-year-olds". It is totally coherent, has an extensive & varied cast of characters and makes perfect sense. It has a level of complexity and depth that most video games don't even attempt to reach. It established many of the archetypes and clichés that we see in JRPGs today. For 1997 it was completely ground-breaking.
I completely agree with the rest of your post, but FFVII did have it's flaws when it came to plot presentation. It fell into the common Animesque trap of introducing complex plot twists and abstract concepts without fully explaining them in-game. It wasn't until the release of Advent Children that I finally understood the relationship between Cloud, Zack, Sephiroth and Jenova (and even now it's a little fuzzy).
 

-Seraph-

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Novan Leon said:
harhol said:
No, but neither is it "incoherent", "pubescent" or "written for ten-year-olds". It is totally coherent, has an extensive & varied cast of characters and makes perfect sense. It has a level of complexity and depth that most video games don't even attempt to reach. It established many of the archetypes and clichés that we see in JRPGs today. For 1997 it was completely ground-breaking.
I completely agree with the rest of your post, but FFVII did have it's flaws when it came to plot presentation. It fell into the common Animesque trap of introducing complex plot twists and abstract concepts without fully explaining them in-game. It wasn't until the release of Advent Children that I finally understood the relationship between Cloud, Zack, Sephiroth and Jenova (and even now it's a little fuzzy).
Huh? I thought the game did it's job in telling you everything you need to know. The relationship your referring to is all explained in the games, it can just be a little tough to find as sometimes it's almost subliminal. Ah well everyone is different and finds the info at their on pace i guess. I caught it first time through but other I know didn't get the hint after playing it twice or just thinking really really hard.
 

Novan Leon

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-Seraph- said:
Novan Leon said:
harhol said:
No, but neither is it "incoherent", "pubescent" or "written for ten-year-olds". It is totally coherent, has an extensive & varied cast of characters and makes perfect sense. It has a level of complexity and depth that most video games don't even attempt to reach. It established many of the archetypes and clichés that we see in JRPGs today. For 1997 it was completely ground-breaking.
I completely agree with the rest of your post, but FFVII did have it's flaws when it came to plot presentation. It fell into the common Animesque trap of introducing complex plot twists and abstract concepts without fully explaining them in-game. It wasn't until the release of Advent Children that I finally understood the relationship between Cloud, Zack, Sephiroth and Jenova (and even now it's a little fuzzy).
Huh? I thought the game did it's job in telling you everything you need to know. The relationship your referring to is all explained in the games, it can just be a little tough to find as sometimes it's almost subliminal. Ah well everyone is different and finds the info at their on pace i guess. I caught it first time through but other I know didn't get the hint after playing it twice or just thinking really really hard.
The month the game came out I played through the game twice in an effort to understand it, without much luck. I can play the game and make a guess based on what information they provide but it kinda breaks the immersion for me when I have to fill in the gaps myself. But hey, to each his own.
 

Dorian Cornelius Jasper

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GloatingSwine said:
It's odd that you complain about playing as The Ishmael in Final Fantasy XII, but when you play as the exact same role in Final Fantasy Tactics (No, don't fool yourself, Delita is the main character, Ramza is not), it's alright...
Well I don't agree that Ramza was the Ishmael since Delita didn't get half as much screentime and his ideals and growth only covered half of the story. You might think he's more interesting than Ramza but he's not the heart of it. He's the half of the story that Ivalice's history told, not the half that FFT told. And who says Ramza isn't interesting? He's practically got a sister complex, he's torn between ideals and family, he's lost his best friends and struggles on working as a mercenary, has been shaken by the horrors of war and the terror of the Zodiac demons, and it literally took a miracle for him to believe that the Zodiac stones could be used for good and not just evil--that there was a possibility for ultimate good in the corrupt world in which he lived. To the point that he was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice, even if nobody would ever tell the story of how he saved the world.

But if you insist that Ramza is an Ishmael, then he's one done right. He does not detract from the storyline, his presence allows us to see a story from up close and feel for it--as the original Ishmael did for the tale of that nutty Captain Ahab. He's a far more interesting POV character than Vaan. It might have something to do with his story being darker and him having to live through it all, but that, again, goes to writing. So, yes, it's alright if Ramza's an Ishmael. Just because that writing tool was misused with FFXII doesn't mean it's a bad thing, it's just bad in XII.

FFT's a better Final Fantasy than numbered Final Fantasies.