179: The Battleship Final Fantasy

[Grampy_bone]

"Final Fantasy today offers the exact same rewards as Final Fantasy yesterday, only it takes more effort to get them."

This statement, the entire premise of this article, couldn't be more wrong. Go back and play FF1 and then tell me it's just as 'rewarding' as FFX. It makes me wonder if the author has even played any final fantasy games. It's like me (I have never played a Madden game) saying the original Madden from 1992 or whenever and Madden 08 are pretty much the same; I mean they're both just football right? That's the same reward right there. No point in playing or making any new football games. They're obsolete. Just forget it. Make 'em handheld and be done with it.

What a moron.

 

[falsealarm]

Oh and sir, please provide us with the literary analysis you found regarding how terrible Final Fantasy's narratives are -- because everything you said came from you own head.

More like, prove to us a genre or game series that does not suffer from the same "problems" he states.

It's popular to show disregard for extremely popular and critically acclaimed things, not just video games.

"Final Fantasy today offers the exact same rewards as Final Fantasy yesterday, only it takes more effort to get them."

This statement, the entire premise of this article, couldn't be more wrong. Go back and play FF1 and then tell me it's just as 'rewarding' as FFX. It makes me wonder if the author has even played any final fantasy games. It's like me (I have never played a Madden game) saying the original Madden from 1992 or whenever and Madden 08 are pretty much the same; I mean they're both just football right? That's the same reward right there. No point in playing or making any new football games. They're obsolete. Just forget it. Make 'em handheld and be done with it.

What a moron.

He can't be a moron, he has his own article.

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

I hope you were utilising that laborious Yamato metaphor time and time again to represent the FF series and the way it too has been rehashing old ground. Because otherwise it became forced and unnecessary!

Anyway, I don't think FF necessarily needs to head in the direction of handhelds, but your criticism is mostly correct. The dialogue, rather than improving, has become worse, due to it being voice acted. In the text games, we read it in our heads, gave each sentence its own subtle nuances and cut out the badly translated or badly written, which did create sympathy with the characters. (Yes, I did sympathise with the characters! I think the characterisation and story of some FF games is superior to most other games, films or drama.)

The westernisation of recent FF games has taken away all of its original artistic charm. FFXII was literally just Star Wars. And I hate Star Wars. All in all, it needs to become subtle again.

 

[Ray Huling]

if it was poorly written then people wouldn't have these.

Yes; they would. Kids cry over children's programming all the time. They have all of the kinds of reactions you quoted. This doesn't mean that there's anything particularly special about the children's shows that were able to elicit these responses.

And I'm not disregarding anything. I enjoy Final Fantasy myself. I've never cried over it or been emotionally affected by it, because I first played FFI at the age of sixteen. By the time the histrionics of FFVII rolled around, Aerith's death was something my friends and I could no longer take seriously. We laughed at her death scene, in the same we way we would laugh at, say, the Power Rangers. This doesn't mean I don't understand that people have found moments of FF affecting. But neither are their reactions sufficient to establish FF as anything more than fare for pubescents.

Which is a fine thing to be!

 

[falsealarm]

if it was poorly written then people wouldn't have these.

Yes; they would. Kids cry over children's programming all the time. They have all of the kinds of reactions you quoted. This doesn't mean that there's anything particularly special about the children's shows that were able to elicit these responses.

And I'm not disregarding anything. I enjoy Final Fantasy myself. I've never cried over it or been emotionally affected by it, because I first played FFI at the age of sixteen. By the time the histrionics of FFVII rolled around, Aerith's death was something my friends and I could no longer take seriously. We laughed at her death scene, in the same we way we would laugh at, say, the Power Rangers. This doesn't mean I don't understand that people have found moments of FF affecting. But neither are their reactions sufficient to establish FF as anything more than fare for pubescents.

Which is a fine thing to be!

Oh, so I was correct in saying you were insulting our maturity. Clearly if you don't enjoy the same things we do, its us that are the overly sensitive "pubescents." I have pointed out the flaw in your logic several times now and you have never confronted it directly. Instead you pick the easy fights or simply ignore any response that reveals your article as merely a glorified opinion.

 

[Ray Huling]

Go back and play FF1 and then tell me it's just as 'rewarding' as FFX.

Actually, I did just that while writing this piece. It was pretty much just as rewarding as FFX, only it didn't have so many cringe-inducing moments in the dialogue, and I didn't feel like a sap for doing things like dodging 200 lightning bolts in a row.

It's funny: while playing through it again, I was able to recall talking with a friend of mine about this game in the high school cafeteria. I still remember feeling jealous that he'd found some kind of Ultima weapon, and I hadn't. With FFX, I remember talking about how nobody wanted to play enough Blitzball to get Wakka's weapon.

 

[TsunamiWombat]

Oh snap Gaijin, I think you just picked a fight with the inteir nation of Japan!

Now I will definatly agree with you that Final Fantasy has become a lumbering behemoth of grind and glitz, like a high budget summer movie lacking substance or fun, possessing only over the top action and hackneyed formulaic plot.

The ORIGINAL Final Fantasy was popular because it was endlessly replayable and customizable. You could make a party of everything, build your characters from the ground up. Recent Final Fantasys have tried to capture this with their many obtuse grid systems and whatever, but the experiance is diluted by the plot. It is very difficult to have complete freedom and a strong plot- Final Fantasy needs to move away from it's current linear model if it's going to combine strong writing with customizable characters. May I suggest Fallout 3 as a model? Yes yes let all the failboys cry "NO! NO FINAL OBLIVION!" but screw you. I'm not saying make an Oblivion clone, i'm just saying that perhaps having a main character that is designed from ground up, combined with pre-genned followers with interesting personalities and traits, as well as selectible history for your character (ala Mass Effect) would be a good formula. Sometimes you just need to shake it up. The grind-tastic linear setup of Final Fantays is a dinosaur, and I know they can do better.

Signed,

Someone who wasted 60 bucks on FFXII

Okay that's it unless your problem was the pacing, or you just didn't connect with the story, I dare you to tell me a design flaw in FFXII. It is a good game, it's not bad by any means of the word. Yes the plot is badly paced around midway. That's it's only problem, well that and the Guide Dang It stuff.

Monsters drop loot, Human enemies drop money, you can create items in the Bazaar from Loot, this is more believable than a giant bird with 10,000 gil in it's beak, I mean a dragon I could understand, maybe the bird, but a Cactus? why does a Cactus carry money?!?

As for the Battle system, Yes you could make the game 'Play itself' but that's less a problem with the game and more a problem with you. I never used gambits on my main character unless I was waling through the starting area and didn't wanna fight weak enemies. The gambit's let you program the AI of your party so they don't do stupid shit. with a full 13 gambit slots you can program them to play like YOU.

The Party's Character development and plot is defended here http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=459841&topic=46066678

I am not saying you have to LIKE FFXII, so if I'm giving that impression that's incorrect, what I am asking is why you hate it, and is it for the right reasons. I have played every FF and save VI in story it's better than all the rest, I remember when X came out and EVERYONE called it shit, I remember that when IX came out everyone called it shit.

So understand my skepticism to anyone saying they dislike XII, Because I am predicting a big spike in hatred for XIII once it is released.

Also the Zodiac Job System (A.K.A. we fixed all the issues with the English game and refuse to release it their) solves Licence Board issues by making 13 of them, and you can only assign one to a character, and that corresponds with a Class.

Also the MP bar stopped serving for Quickenings and they added a third bar.

So yeah I consider your statements uninformed.

I just now caught this.

My statements aren't uninformed because I don't agree with you *blows over the strawman*

My problem with FFXII was primarily the story. The Combat system was okay though it all looked a bit too much like an MMO stripped of the whole multiplayer thing to me- meaning boring and lonely. None the less it was fun. No, my problem was they screwed the pooch with the story. Shit, they revealed the evil twin within the first two hours of gameplay. The main character wasn't the main character, and all the characters looked far too metrosexual or rediculously underdressed (except Balthier) for me to take them seriously. I really wanted to like the game, really, it just never grabbed me like it should've and when you take away the gripping story all you have is completionist grind.

Sorry, Final Fantasy's gameplay aspects simply are not entertaining anymore. They've been using the same basic mechanics for almost twenty years- or is it 30 now? 1980's right?

Edit: Also, did anyone comment on my design suggestions?

May I suggest Fallout 3 as a model? Yes yes let all the failboys cry "NO! NO FINAL OBLIVION!" but screw you. I'm not saying make an Oblivion clone, i'm just saying that perhaps having a main character that is designed from ground up, combined with pre-genned followers with interesting personalities and traits, as well as selectible history for your character (ala Mass Effect) would be a good formula. Sometimes you just need to shake it up. The grind-tastic linear setup of Final Fantays is a dinosaur, and I know they can do better.

 

[Ray Huling]

It's teenage/young adult fiction, and uses the themes of that fiction, personal growth, identity, responsibility to others, and coming of age have been at the core of Final Fantasy's stories since they got stories back in Final Fantasy II.

You're saying it's more like Saved By the Bell?

Yeah; you might have something there. But have you really given thought to how all of these elements appear in the best episodes of the D&D cartoon?

Consider Uni.

 

[Grampy_bone]

Go back and play FF1 and then tell me it's just as 'rewarding' as FFX.

Actually, I did just that while writing this piece. It was pretty much just as rewarding as FFX, only it didn't have so many cringe-inducing moments in the dialogue, and I didn't feel like a sap for doing things like dodging 200 lightning bolts in a row.

It's funny: while playing through it again, I was able to recall talking with a friend of mine about this game in the high school cafeteria. I still remember feeling jealous that he'd found some kind of Ultima weapon, and I hadn't. With FFX, I remember talking about how nobody wanted to play enough Blitzball to get Wakka's weapon.

Err, right. Yeah. FF1 had all the same rewarding gameplay, characterization, and graphics as FFX. Riiiiiight. Fine. I'll give that to you. There's no accounting for taste.

But making such a broad generalization as this is essentially meaningless. It can apply to any game ever released, anywhere, forever. Why play Super Mario Galaxy when it's just as rewarding as Super Mario Brothers? Why play any Zelda game other than the first? They're all the same 'reward' after all. Why play any shooters past Doom? Everything they've added since is just grinding. Better make it portable, that'd be a real innova-shun. Yepper right uh-huh yup dagnabbit! In fact, why play any videogame-game at all? They're all the same reward as Pong, just go play that!

 

[Sylocat]

Don't feed the troll, people.

 

[falsealarm]

Don't feed the troll, people.

Agreed I'm out of here.

 

[unangbangkay]

But neither are their reactions sufficient to establish FF as anything more than fare for pubescents.

Which is a fine thing to be!

I'd agree that Final Fantasy and for the most part, jRPGs in general do trade in pedestrian pabulum, young adult fiction worthy of the average D&D or Star Wars novel, but does that make it any less "worthy" of a place in the title lineup of current-gen consoles? I say it does not.

Gears of War 2 and its "ten shitloads" of Locust roundly deserves its place among the 360's top games, even when the quality of its writing and dialog is just as cringe-inducing (perhaps moreso) than the amnesiac angst of Cloud or Squall. So why NOT Final Fantasy? How is a badly written action game more deserving of continued existence than a long-running franchise characterized by lavish cutscenes and ridiculous grind?

Is it because of the battleship metaphor, that its antiquated gameplay no longer justifies the resources spent producing it? That's yet another matter of preference rather than fact. What you call obsolete and old, some would call classic and venerable. Perhaps the innovation you've wanted to see in Final Fantasy has occured on a smaller scale, rather than in the fundamental design philosophy. Junctions, Materia, Gambits, Jobs, Summons, Turn Order, even Dress-Spheres, all are "innovations" on the battle system. You're still selecting "Fight" from a menu in the end, but you're still just shooting things in Gears.

We can see it in narative as well, or at least in setting. From Midgar to Ivalice, Spira to Vana'diel, Magitek to Magicite, all the core releases have seen substantial change, even if only on an arguably superficial level.

We may not have seen a substantial move towards integrating narrative with gameplay in Final Fantasy, but is that such a terrible thing? Is that focus on small changes as opposed to sweeping revolutions what it takes to resign a game to the trash heap of history (which, by your logic, is the DS)?

Even with everything that's been said, there is still no real reason to scuttle the ship.

 

[Rezuvious]

FFVIII is not even close to a grind you can go kill any boss at lvl 8 if you wanted excet omega weapon hes the only boss that doesnt scale with character level (all enemies stay at a lvl that is is = upto 5 lvls higher thne ur party) no grinding in FF8.

 

[Jumpman]

Solid article all around, even though the ship metaphor got a little stretched by the end of it. Personally I really cant understand how anyone can take the FF series seriously, it only works as a game if the player is totally removed from it. the clearest example of this is the basic combat system. the idea of everyone standing around, taking turns in the fight can only be appealing if you've removed yourself enough from the game to view it more like a checkers match. I think the same goes for the characters and story elements.

(note- this isnt a bad thing, its just the kind of game it is. the same could be said for lots of other great games too.)

 

[Grampy_bone]

But neither are their reactions sufficient to establish FF as anything more than fare for pubescents.

Which is a fine thing to be!

I'd agree that Final Fantasy and for the most part, jRPGs in general do trade in pedestrian pabulum, young adult fiction worthy of the average D&D or Star Wars novel, but does that make it any less "worthy" of a place in the title lineup of current-gen consoles? I say it does not.

Gears of War 2 and its "ten shitloads" of Locust roundly deserves its place among the 360's top games, even when the quality of its writing and dialog is just as cringe-inducing (perhaps moreso) than the amnesiac angst of Cloud or Squall. So why NOT Final Fantasy? How is a badly written action game more deserving of continued existence than a long-running franchise characterized by lavish cutscenes and ridiculous grind?

Is it because of the battleship metaphor, that its antiquated gameplay no longer justifies the resources spent producing it? That's yet another matter of preference rather than fact. What you call obsolete and old, some would call classic and venerable. Perhaps the innovation you've wanted to see in Final Fantasy has occured on a smaller scale, rather than in the fundamental design philosophy. Junctions, Materia, Gambits, Jobs, Summons, Turn Order, even Dress-Spheres, all are "innovations" on the battle system. You're still selecting "Fight" from a menu in the end, but you're still just shooting things in Gears.

We can see it in narative as well, or at least in setting. From Midgar to Ivalice, Spira to Vana'diel, Magitek to Magicite, all the core releases have seen substantial change, even if only on an arguably superficial level.

We may not have seen a substantial move towards integrating narrative with gameplay in Final Fantasy, but is that such a terrible thing? Is that focus on small changes as opposed to sweeping revolutions what it takes to resign a game to the trash heap of history (which, by your logic, is the DS)?

Even with everything that's been said, there is still no real reason to scuttle the ship.

Your ideas are intriguing to me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

 

[GloatingSwine]

You're saying it's more like Saved By the Bell?

Yeah; you might have something there. But have you really given thought to how all of these elements appear in the best episodes of the D&D cartoon?

Consider Uni.

If you're going to protract the TV analogy, I'd say it's closer to something like Heroes. The development of a continuous story is not that of an episodic one like the D&D cartoon, where character development (if it happens) is done by repeating the same response to the same situation over and over again.