Stealing From the Next Generation
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Scooby and Shaggy were always strung out on meth. And the new Battlestar (which is what I assume you're referencing) is only about 10,000 times better than the original. Not joking.
In all seriousness, you have a legit point. Trying to rework things that were inherently childish into adult concepts is going, oh how to put this gently, blow. So I agree, to a point. I just want you (and less you because I assume you know this) and everyone else to recognize 2 things:
1) Aiming a story at children is going to restrict your art. Are Wall-E and Up good films? Fuck yes, I loved them. Will they ever have as much brilliance and meaning oh what are my top 3 adult films, say Godfather, Blade Runner or A Clockwork Orange? No, never. Not their fault, but simply aiming it at a younger audience means you have to sacrifice some artistic merit. Want an example from the same director? Look at the difference in quality between Ponyo and Princess Mononoke. (And I liked Ponyo before I hear it).
2) You have to recognize what are already kind of adult themes. People assume that comics are inherently for kids, and that's not ENTIRELY wrong. But it's not entirely correct either. Batman, for example, is not an inherently childish concept. It is, when you strip away a lot of our assumptions, about a 10 year old kid who watches his parents die and, again boiling away a lot of stuff, goes completely off the wall crazy, dresses up like a Bat and starts punching criminals. Is it silly? Yes. Are there already adult concepts and stories working their way in? Oh yes.
Just some food for thought.
In all seriousness, you have a legit point. Trying to rework things that were inherently childish into adult concepts is going, oh how to put this gently, blow. So I agree, to a point. I just want you (and less you because I assume you know this) and everyone else to recognize 2 things:
1) Aiming a story at children is going to restrict your art. Are Wall-E and Up good films? Fuck yes, I loved them. Will they ever have as much brilliance and meaning oh what are my top 3 adult films, say Godfather, Blade Runner or A Clockwork Orange? No, never. Not their fault, but simply aiming it at a younger audience means you have to sacrifice some artistic merit. Want an example from the same director? Look at the difference in quality between Ponyo and Princess Mononoke. (And I liked Ponyo before I hear it).
2) You have to recognize what are already kind of adult themes. People assume that comics are inherently for kids, and that's not ENTIRELY wrong. But it's not entirely correct either. Batman, for example, is not an inherently childish concept. It is, when you strip away a lot of our assumptions, about a 10 year old kid who watches his parents die and, again boiling away a lot of stuff, goes completely off the wall crazy, dresses up like a Bat and starts punching criminals. Is it silly? Yes. Are there already adult concepts and stories working their way in? Oh yes.
Just some food for thought.
Agreed. I'm greatly looking forward to the new mario for some unabashedly childlike fun.
Too many gamers are desperate for their hobby to be taken seriously, and this ironically makes it seem more juvenile when every game they play has some macho no-personality meathead and no plot, because it's for sissies. It's getting very tiring.
Too many gamers are desperate for their hobby to be taken seriously, and this ironically makes it seem more juvenile when every game they play has some macho no-personality meathead and no plot, because it's for sissies. It's getting very tiring.
I have to say that the trend to "more mature" content is not so fully controlled by fandom. Do we (the fans) want the gritty and gray? Perhaps. But it has much more to do with a bottom line...say Superman with his super-dog. Do you really think that non-fans, say people who casually remember Superman or are just going to see a film would be as open with their wallets about the Superman plus superdog film? Lets face it, as loud as fans are, we have very little say over the content of our entertainment. Look at Firefly, still cancelled, all the on-line petitions...etc...etc... We are the vocal minority, and media companies know this.
The fact is there is more money in a grown-up film. Even Avatar while being PG-13 is hardly soft and cuddly.
As for Batman, there is an entire generation of fan out there now who grew up with the "Dark Knight" and not the "Caped Crusader". I was 2 when it was released in 86. Apart from the occasional re-run of the camp 60's version on a Sunday morning, he's all I've ever known...and well if they tried to return Batman to his less "Dark" Knight I think it'd be an affront to my childhood. What I'm saying here is that just because something isn't aimed for children doesn't mean its not part of their childhood.
The fact is there is more money in a grown-up film. Even Avatar while being PG-13 is hardly soft and cuddly.
As for Batman, there is an entire generation of fan out there now who grew up with the "Dark Knight" and not the "Caped Crusader". I was 2 when it was released in 86. Apart from the occasional re-run of the camp 60's version on a Sunday morning, he's all I've ever known...and well if they tried to return Batman to his less "Dark" Knight I think it'd be an affront to my childhood. What I'm saying here is that just because something isn't aimed for children doesn't mean its not part of their childhood.
Can't really say I disagree with any of this...although I did find that opening bit hilarious once I figured out what it was leading to.
Why not?Elesar said:
As someone who recently named his new laptop "Thunderquack" (I inherited the money for it from my grandma, and she liked ducks, so I figured it should at least be vaguely duck-related...), I wholeheartedly agree with this. It can be interesting or funny to see a more mature take on something like that (or, very rarely, a grown up/adult perspective on it (e.g. Superman: Secret Identity, or really most Kurt Busiek stuff like Astro City) instead of the angsty teen version of mature), but not at the expense of losing the original entirely.
I actually did watch a few A-Team episodes with my dad when I was younger. It was amazing!Furburt said:
It was lighthearted, fun, and just a blast.
I too am sick of this march towards "mature, serious, and hardcore."
I don't mind that these things exist, but do they really have to take my childhood with them? Why can't things be fun and lighthearted? Why can't thing be colorful? Why can't things be silly and funny?
Hell, I'm replaying Maximo right now, and its a blast. The story is about, well its about an evil king who can bring souls back from the dead and tricks a princess into marrying him by making her think her love, Maximo, is dead. Well Maximo charges the palace, and gets killed. But death offers him a proposition, stop the king from stealing his souls, and Maximo can continue to live.
And yet, the game just looks cartoony. Hell, when you have one health bar left, all you wear is heart covered boxers for Christ's sake!
And yet the game is more challenging, more fun, and far more rewarding than most games out right now.
Its a shame really.
Bob, you are so bang on it's not even funny. My wife and one of her best friends were watching me play Mario Galaxy 2 the other night, and she said "Isn't this game for kids?" Hell no, it's for everyone. Just because the goombas don't explode in a shower of blood when you stomp on them doesn't mean it's intended solely for children. People have forgotten that Nintendo cut their teeth on ***** slapping us when we were kids with insane platforming challenges. This game is hard when you start getting to the comet stars and optional challenges. Same thing with New Super Mario Bros. Wii and World 9. I'd like to meet the 8 year old that could get all 120 stars without breaking their controller in frustration.
The funny thing about "mature" content is that it's almost always aimed at a 14 year olds vision of what's mature, making it so there's now two definitions of "mature"
Mature themes are things that can be thought about and discussed, stuff that can have more than one question and more than one answer, and can be talked about between friends and family, all of whom will have a different view on what it means and how much it matters. (for example, the theme of growing old in Up)
Mature content is as shallow and pandering as possible, containing nothing more thought provoking than, "Damn, that's so cool!" or, "Damn, that's hardcore!" and never seeking to be anything more than that. (this is roughly 90% of games right now, and if you don't believe me, try striking up a conversation on the thematic elements of Gears of War)
Fortunately, quality will always find a way to survive, and I have no doubt in my mind that stuff like Shadow of the Colossus or Super Mario Galaxy will have much longer lives than those of Halo and Killzone.
Mature themes are things that can be thought about and discussed, stuff that can have more than one question and more than one answer, and can be talked about between friends and family, all of whom will have a different view on what it means and how much it matters. (for example, the theme of growing old in Up)
Mature content is as shallow and pandering as possible, containing nothing more thought provoking than, "Damn, that's so cool!" or, "Damn, that's hardcore!" and never seeking to be anything more than that. (this is roughly 90% of games right now, and if you don't believe me, try striking up a conversation on the thematic elements of Gears of War)
Fortunately, quality will always find a way to survive, and I have no doubt in my mind that stuff like Shadow of the Colossus or Super Mario Galaxy will have much longer lives than those of Halo and Killzone.
I think the greatest tragedy is that these things aren't becoming more mature but paradoxically more juvenile. The medium and the content should grow up with its audience but not in such a shallow way.
Holy Shit... This is one of the best pieces I have read on The Escapist. Bob I think you are spot on... Although if you want to see a mature version of Mario, we here at The Escapist have something called "There Will Be Brawl"
I have seen things change over the last 30 years, seen comic book stores become the hang-out place for the 20 - 40 somethings and not filled with teenagers and kids. While I like not hearing a bunch of kids high-pitched voices, I do wonder where the medium will be in 20 or so more years. Will it even exist, as the people who are creating these stories are doing so for people in their age brackets, they are not luring the younger youth they way they once did. Although some of that could just be due to the fact that kids are more interested in TV and Video Games.
I wouldn't personally mind seeing the Pokemon game you mentioned, but I wouldn't want the franchise to go that direction. Maybe a re-imagining like they did with the Batman movies. The fact is what got people hooked into these worlds were the light-hearted fun elements and not the dark grit.
I have seen things change over the last 30 years, seen comic book stores become the hang-out place for the 20 - 40 somethings and not filled with teenagers and kids. While I like not hearing a bunch of kids high-pitched voices, I do wonder where the medium will be in 20 or so more years. Will it even exist, as the people who are creating these stories are doing so for people in their age brackets, they are not luring the younger youth they way they once did. Although some of that could just be due to the fact that kids are more interested in TV and Video Games.
I wouldn't personally mind seeing the Pokemon game you mentioned, but I wouldn't want the franchise to go that direction. Maybe a re-imagining like they did with the Batman movies. The fact is what got people hooked into these worlds were the light-hearted fun elements and not the dark grit.
look bob, I can see where you are coming from, I grew up with pokemon and WOULD like to see a game like that because the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you were talking about happened to the series.
Before, it was marketed to all ages, keeping a kid friendly style while slipping in jokes for the adult audience and once in a while a serious life dilema, it started to move towards a younger crowd, the pokemon became more like stuffed plushies than actual animals, the more sophisticated jokes feel away for stupid slapstick comedy, and suddenly nobody could take it seriously anymore.
Imagine if they remade district 9 but threw out all of the seriousness, if nearly killing aliens that now have shiny bug like puppy eyes was laughed off by everybody in the movie, because nobody, humans or aliens actually die. Imagine if the alien guns, instead of making people explode, just give them a light shock while a fake valentines heart appears in the chest beating, and afterwards they are only slightly singed. you would really hate and slam that movie while crying about what they've done.
Before, it was marketed to all ages, keeping a kid friendly style while slipping in jokes for the adult audience and once in a while a serious life dilema, it started to move towards a younger crowd, the pokemon became more like stuffed plushies than actual animals, the more sophisticated jokes feel away for stupid slapstick comedy, and suddenly nobody could take it seriously anymore.
Imagine if they remade district 9 but threw out all of the seriousness, if nearly killing aliens that now have shiny bug like puppy eyes was laughed off by everybody in the movie, because nobody, humans or aliens actually die. Imagine if the alien guns, instead of making people explode, just give them a light shock while a fake valentines heart appears in the chest beating, and afterwards they are only slightly singed. you would really hate and slam that movie while crying about what they've done.
Hey! I've still got a wallet chain. Okay, okay, fine, I have had the same wallet since I was 14, but at least I know where my keys are. Right? Right?Onyx Oblivion said:
*crickets*
Yeah, I know, I really need to get a new wallet.
I think Bob makes some excelent points. It reminds me of my favorite show: Avatar The Last Airbender (in which M. Night Syamalan is making a movie of releasing this July.) The show has some of the best animation I've ever seen, whether it be on Nickelodeon or just American Cartoons in general. All the action is based on real forms of chinese martial arts. Also I can't think of another show that has an even number of female fighters as there is male fighters. They are very beautiful, incredably talented, and they don't have to be complete skanks like so many anime women.
Anyway, I've been trying to convince a lot of my friends in college to watch it so they can get an idea of what the movie will be like. All my lady friends totally are into it, but I have a couple guy friends who will watch it and say "Dude, this show has some great themes, awesome animation, and the fighting with elements is cool. I just wish it were more mature. How come every time someone fights and loses, they just get sent to prison, or banished, and then when someone actually dies, it's something lame like falling off a cliff, or it's off screen."
Now to an extent, I can sort of see where he's comming from. But making Avatar look like every other violent anime out there would take away from the true heart of the show. Avatar is suppose to appeal to both genders of all ages. Not just hardcore mid-20 guys.
Anyway, I've been trying to convince a lot of my friends in college to watch it so they can get an idea of what the movie will be like. All my lady friends totally are into it, but I have a couple guy friends who will watch it and say "Dude, this show has some great themes, awesome animation, and the fighting with elements is cool. I just wish it were more mature. How come every time someone fights and loses, they just get sent to prison, or banished, and then when someone actually dies, it's something lame like falling off a cliff, or it's off screen."
Now to an extent, I can sort of see where he's comming from. But making Avatar look like every other violent anime out there would take away from the true heart of the show. Avatar is suppose to appeal to both genders of all ages. Not just hardcore mid-20 guys.