Stealing From the Next Generation
- Thread starter MovieBob
- Start date
Well said! IBIDSatansBestBuddy said:
Also...
"Shaggy and Scooby aren't strung out on meth, chasing down serial cannibals. I'm thankful for that. I wouldn't wish that for them - at least, not without separately preserving the proper version for the next generation."
That seems to be the way. Offering something older nerd nation might prefer today but still creating new content for the more innocent originals.
How many of us still enjoy the occasional Saturday morning childhood flashback with a bowl of Cap'n Crunch and a few classic 'toons? Be honest, the more pure and clean the better, right? And how much more important today's kids is this?
Plenty of time for grim and grit. That is inevitable, it comes with learning about FICA for the first time. Still remember that first McD's check with horror...
And lastly, that accompanying photo is nightmarish. Those kids may be smiling on the outside but they are screaming in their souls. For shame, Dad!
The problem is all this means is the businesses (comics & games especially) are not getting the customers early enough to then sustain them in the years ahead. This is why I've always been a fan of Nintendo and would like to beat people who complain about its "Kiddyness" over the head with a cricket bat. The majority of gamers who are now over 21 almost certainly started on kid friendly games like Mario and Sonic, but as the umber of "Mature" titles grows, what games will the younger generation have to start on? Nintendo believes that you should make games that children will like because it builds loyalty (remember the old saying "Give me a child until they're 7 and they'll be mine for life") and so they will have repeat customers when the Wii2 (or whatever) comes out.
Despite the toungue-in-cheek in the article, I grew up with the Ninja Turtles, they were fitting for the time they were created, but I still want to see them use their weapons for more than making pizza! OR rather, I want to see them as they were ment to be, before the saturday morning cartoon, in their original comic
or do you want to keep the turtles looking and talking like THIS? XD
or do you want to keep the turtles looking and talking like THIS? XD
I have to say, the best example I've ever found to describe the current conflict of maturity is DC comics.
The main DC line is obviously aimed at younger buyers, and yet its contents contain a lot of needless violence and imaginery. Heck, just read the latest Titans. Villains for Hire special. It's stupidly violent and gore-ific for no reason whatsoever.
Their sub studio Vertigo however, is meant for more mature publications. And it manages to create more provocative, mature and philosophical stories with much less needless gore.
Oh, and Krypto is awesome. Point.
When in the latest War of the Supermen #4 he was it with a kryptonite dagger and for a second it seemed like the writers might be killing him off, my heart skipped a beat.
The main DC line is obviously aimed at younger buyers, and yet its contents contain a lot of needless violence and imaginery. Heck, just read the latest Titans. Villains for Hire special. It's stupidly violent and gore-ific for no reason whatsoever.
Their sub studio Vertigo however, is meant for more mature publications. And it manages to create more provocative, mature and philosophical stories with much less needless gore.
Oh, and Krypto is awesome. Point.
When in the latest War of the Supermen #4 he was it with a kryptonite dagger and for a second it seemed like the writers might be killing him off, my heart skipped a beat.
It's only "obvious" if you're coming from the inherent perspective that works intended for children are inherently devoid of meaning, as is anything that isn't a flat-out angstfest. Speaking as an adult fan of Avatar: The Last Airbender, naturally I'm going to call BS on that perspective.666Chaos said:
Mid-twenties. Also, not a fan of A Clockwork Orange, but a huge fan of Studio Ghibli works.
I fully agree. Avatar is one of the best cartoon-shows ever made because it has a perfect balance of maturity and childishness that makes it enjoyable to people of all ages, not to mention the great story and characters. If there was graphic killing all the time, it wouldn't be the same, it wouldn't be avatar. Death dosen't have to be graphic to be mature either. Heck, the deaths in fiction that have affected me the most have mostly been in childrens-fiction. If the deaths had been graphic and bloody, I wouldn't have taken them as seriously. As that guy earlier said, there are differences between mature themes and mature content. Avatar e.g has lots of mature themes. It deals with war, loss, death, sacrifice, honor and tons of other themes, without a single drop of blood. Now that's hardcore.naughtydoggus said:
Sometimes "darker" and "mature" things can be good, but not all the time. And some things really shouldn't be changed that way. If Superman killed people, he wouldn't be Superman anymore. Because he just dosen't do that. Now, an Elseworld-story where he did that could be good if done in the right way by a good writer. But changing the "real" Superman into a killer? No. That's why we have series like "The Boys", where all superheroes are murdering assholes, so that the classic heroes doesn't have to do the same. We light for there to be darkness. Also, even if something is dark, it dosen't need to be pitch black. Take a look at e.g Raven from the Teen Titans cartoon. Lighter than her comicbook-counterpart, but still pretty dark for a childrens cartoon-character. And she works great. And what about the BTAS Joker? Imo the best Joker ever, a perfect mix of the silly and funny and the dark and pshycotic.
Speaking of Batman, I love both the dark and serious version and the more funny version, like in The Brave and the Bold (God, I love that show). And I can experience both. Isn't that great?
Btw, speaking of Krypto and Robin. I don't have much knowledge about Krypto, but I wan't to make up for not commenting on your earlier Robin-article. Robin is a great character when used right, which he mostly is. But people have a tendency to ignore the ok and good and just focus on the bad. When people think "Live-action Robin" they mostly think of the terrible one from the mediocre "Forever" or the terrible "& Robin". Or the 60's Robin, who was fine in context, but outside is really damn silly. But they forget the great Robin in several comicbooks and cartoons. Robin is awesome cartoons like B:ATS, Teen Titans and even The Batman. Robin can be great if done right, but so could many other things... Like Deadpool...
With respect to Bob, I do somewhat disagree with the premise. Many IP's that get the "mature" reboot (and don't horribly flop) usually need it because the orignal, lighter tone just makes the property feel out of place. In some cases, the darker tone feels more approperiate for some properties. Let's look at the titles that Bob looked at:
Pokemon: This is a game that, for the most part, based on a game mechanic and a copy-paste story line. Sure, they could make a dark, mob-buster plotline, but it wouldn't work (you are 13-18 year-old "trainer" after all). It never really takes itself seriously in the story department because the bubbly atmosphere of the game is part of the game. I even saw the first screen-shots of the new game, and it is virtually unrecognisable in it's new style.
Batman: This IP is, at its heart, an organized crime/detective story, and less about Batman running around in his tights battling a clown (Joker is a violent killer, after all). A darker asthetic simply makes more sense with the material content. Even the cartoons had a darker theme to it. I think after the timeline that started with "Batman: the Animated Series" and ended with "Batman Beyond," the series lost something when it decidedly went for a less-darker asthetic. They barely even mention death, even though the concept is an integral part of the origin of Batman.
Superman: The slow death of Superman in the media has only been amplified by the sudden realization that he is wholely unrepresentatitve of modern times. His near-complete invinsibility and warm feeling worked well in the risiing US of the 1930s and '40s, when sheer might was the way to fight evil (ala the Axis powers). In the '50s and '60s, the American economic Zenith made Superman's might similarly representative of the power of the American economy. But after Vietnam, the turmoil of the late-'60s, '70s and '80s, Oklahoma City, 9/11, Katrina, and the economic collapse, his invincibility feels less hopeful and more the rose-colored memories of days-gone-by. Smallville tried to reboot the franchise, but it is almost unrecognisible as Superman as we (used) to know him.
The Bionic Commando reboot and Street Fighter movie: utter failures because they missed the point of the series' to begin with (platforming and cartoonish fighting, respectively).
Battlestar Gallactica: The "hopeful future" Sci-fi series died with Enterprise. As we move farther in history, we're realizing that the faults in humanity, the basis of many of the species in the first Star Trek series, likely aren't going to be resolved as nicely as we hoped. That's why series like the new BSG and Firefly have become the next wave of mid-far future sci-fi series.
Mario: The franchise was built in the '80s, when the idea of a plumber saving a princess from a oversized turtle was a story line that people would accept. It has rarely strayed beyond the self-realization that that completely absurd story could never be tken seriously (ever more confirmed by the Mario Brothers Movie, which we all agree never existed). So they rolled with it, and stuck with the lighthearted (and, especially in the RPGs, self-flagelating) notion that it was an absurd concept that eventually has become the joke of the series itself. Mario has done the near-impossible and used the combination of nostalgia and broad appeal to maintain a steady and constantly growing following, minus a few trip-ups (Sunshine).
Point is, some things do need to grow up as we loose that innocence of childhood. Batman, Battlestar, and others were fun at the time, but they now feel alien in our world. Hanna-Barbara cartoons feel dated, almost like walking into an elderly person's house. Others, like Mario, Pokemon, and Street don't need to change because we remember those things for different reasons. We'll always look back on those days with rose-tinted glasses, but there is a point where we all sit down and try to watch/play some of those things and feel completely out of place. I don't remember my childhood through Desert Storm or the '92 recession, but now I know they existed while I watched the Sonic Cartoon series and played Super Mario Land on my first grey-brick Game Boy. Don't let that nostalgia deny the maturing of a series.
Pokemon: This is a game that, for the most part, based on a game mechanic and a copy-paste story line. Sure, they could make a dark, mob-buster plotline, but it wouldn't work (you are 13-18 year-old "trainer" after all). It never really takes itself seriously in the story department because the bubbly atmosphere of the game is part of the game. I even saw the first screen-shots of the new game, and it is virtually unrecognisable in it's new style.
Batman: This IP is, at its heart, an organized crime/detective story, and less about Batman running around in his tights battling a clown (Joker is a violent killer, after all). A darker asthetic simply makes more sense with the material content. Even the cartoons had a darker theme to it. I think after the timeline that started with "Batman: the Animated Series" and ended with "Batman Beyond," the series lost something when it decidedly went for a less-darker asthetic. They barely even mention death, even though the concept is an integral part of the origin of Batman.
Superman: The slow death of Superman in the media has only been amplified by the sudden realization that he is wholely unrepresentatitve of modern times. His near-complete invinsibility and warm feeling worked well in the risiing US of the 1930s and '40s, when sheer might was the way to fight evil (ala the Axis powers). In the '50s and '60s, the American economic Zenith made Superman's might similarly representative of the power of the American economy. But after Vietnam, the turmoil of the late-'60s, '70s and '80s, Oklahoma City, 9/11, Katrina, and the economic collapse, his invincibility feels less hopeful and more the rose-colored memories of days-gone-by. Smallville tried to reboot the franchise, but it is almost unrecognisible as Superman as we (used) to know him.
The Bionic Commando reboot and Street Fighter movie: utter failures because they missed the point of the series' to begin with (platforming and cartoonish fighting, respectively).
Battlestar Gallactica: The "hopeful future" Sci-fi series died with Enterprise. As we move farther in history, we're realizing that the faults in humanity, the basis of many of the species in the first Star Trek series, likely aren't going to be resolved as nicely as we hoped. That's why series like the new BSG and Firefly have become the next wave of mid-far future sci-fi series.
Mario: The franchise was built in the '80s, when the idea of a plumber saving a princess from a oversized turtle was a story line that people would accept. It has rarely strayed beyond the self-realization that that completely absurd story could never be tken seriously (ever more confirmed by the Mario Brothers Movie, which we all agree never existed). So they rolled with it, and stuck with the lighthearted (and, especially in the RPGs, self-flagelating) notion that it was an absurd concept that eventually has become the joke of the series itself. Mario has done the near-impossible and used the combination of nostalgia and broad appeal to maintain a steady and constantly growing following, minus a few trip-ups (Sunshine).
Point is, some things do need to grow up as we loose that innocence of childhood. Batman, Battlestar, and others were fun at the time, but they now feel alien in our world. Hanna-Barbara cartoons feel dated, almost like walking into an elderly person's house. Others, like Mario, Pokemon, and Street don't need to change because we remember those things for different reasons. We'll always look back on those days with rose-tinted glasses, but there is a point where we all sit down and try to watch/play some of those things and feel completely out of place. I don't remember my childhood through Desert Storm or the '92 recession, but now I know they existed while I watched the Sonic Cartoon series and played Super Mario Land on my first grey-brick Game Boy. Don't let that nostalgia deny the maturing of a series.
Depends on what it is, I think. The way you describe it, Bob, is that some franchises should never be touched and I disagree. I think some properties out there could use a bit of a more mature revamp. Sometimes it can work if done properly. Some of the premises of those properties had potential, but were brought down due to the audience they were being intended for. Let's take Transformers, for example. Like you said in your ROTF review, it had concepts like alien robots, machine planets and intergalactic civil war. All of it as you said, big idea stuff. But because it was written down to kids, much of that potential went unrealized.
I'm kind of the same way about Thundercats. I was 14 when that show came out, and I remember when it began I was teased with the idea of a huge, epic story inspired by Star Wars, The Lord of the Rings and the legend of King Arthur. It had a huge, interplanetary war as a backdrop with some really cool-looking villains (Mumm-ra himself reminded me of Eddie from Iron Maiden, who I was just getting into at the time). There was great potential for coolness. What I got was....ehhhhh. Formulaic scripts with no sense of story progression, holes in logic big enough to drive a Mack truck through and some of the hokiest voice acting I ever heard at that time. Disappointment just about summed-up my attitude about it. And to me, Thundercats will always be a show that was a missed opportunity and a wasted potential.
Now I keep hearing rumblings of a Thundercats reboot. One of the things I'm hoping for is that they DO make it a tad darker and grittier...or at least take it more seriously than the old cartoon did. Like you have argued about Transformers, you can make a good movie/TV show out of anything regardless of its source material. Thundercats had some Big Ideas, too (i.e. genocide, war, preserving your culture, ancient occult forces, the Campbellian journey of the hero, etc.) Why not take those ideas and run with them to their fullest potential? If they do that, then I can guarantee you that it'd be something I'd watch and not feel embarrassed doing so, like I was when I was 14 watching the old show.
Also it would make more sense for the show to be a bit more realistic in terms of its violence. I mean, come on. All the show's characters carried melee weapons. Wouldn't be more satisfying - not to mention honest - to see them...I dunno...actually HIT someone with them as opposed to doing magic tricks or emanating puffs of smoke?
I'm just using Thundercats as an example here for you to say it is possible to take something that was beloved in childhood and that it could benefit from being made more mature. Like I said in the beginning, it all depends on how it's handled.
I'm kind of the same way about Thundercats. I was 14 when that show came out, and I remember when it began I was teased with the idea of a huge, epic story inspired by Star Wars, The Lord of the Rings and the legend of King Arthur. It had a huge, interplanetary war as a backdrop with some really cool-looking villains (Mumm-ra himself reminded me of Eddie from Iron Maiden, who I was just getting into at the time). There was great potential for coolness. What I got was....ehhhhh. Formulaic scripts with no sense of story progression, holes in logic big enough to drive a Mack truck through and some of the hokiest voice acting I ever heard at that time. Disappointment just about summed-up my attitude about it. And to me, Thundercats will always be a show that was a missed opportunity and a wasted potential.
Now I keep hearing rumblings of a Thundercats reboot. One of the things I'm hoping for is that they DO make it a tad darker and grittier...or at least take it more seriously than the old cartoon did. Like you have argued about Transformers, you can make a good movie/TV show out of anything regardless of its source material. Thundercats had some Big Ideas, too (i.e. genocide, war, preserving your culture, ancient occult forces, the Campbellian journey of the hero, etc.) Why not take those ideas and run with them to their fullest potential? If they do that, then I can guarantee you that it'd be something I'd watch and not feel embarrassed doing so, like I was when I was 14 watching the old show.
Also it would make more sense for the show to be a bit more realistic in terms of its violence. I mean, come on. All the show's characters carried melee weapons. Wouldn't be more satisfying - not to mention honest - to see them...I dunno...actually HIT someone with them as opposed to doing magic tricks or emanating puffs of smoke?
I'm just using Thundercats as an example here for you to say it is possible to take something that was beloved in childhood and that it could benefit from being made more mature. Like I said in the beginning, it all depends on how it's handled.
I hate to say this, but when I played pokemon as a kid I was expecting it to be pretty much like what movie bob was describing. After all I was also playing mortal kombat at the time and that let me rip my opponents spine out. I was so disappointed at the time that it was basicly just soft toys fighting that I didn't touch it again for about 6 months. Kids a fairly blood thirsty that way.
But serious kids dont want our childhood experiences they want their own.
My kids arn't interested in the Muppet show, transformers or the teen age mutant ninja turtle.
They want their own icons.
But serious kids dont want our childhood experiences they want their own.
My kids arn't interested in the Muppet show, transformers or the teen age mutant ninja turtle.
They want their own icons.
Dude... Have you seen the trailer? They are parachuting on a freaking tank shooting at fighter jets. (and you know when the jets get shot down the pilots will eject in time) When I was a kid playing with my toys THAT'S the kind of stuff I did. I honestly doubt they are miking casualties of war.Furburt said:
As for the whole grown up geek thing I do like it when a comic or franchise can have a level of maturity without losing it's sense of fun and adventure. MovieBob mentioned Dr. Light as a rapist from Identity Crisis an amazing graphic novel and a perfect example of how to do mature right. The Justice League (to me) always seemed kinda silly but that comic fleshed out the characters quite well and made them real. (without denying 60 odd years of comic history.) It made a very small villain a tangible threat by introducing a crime that logically all married super hero's would feel and merged it with the silliness of the universe. It made it more real and gave it a depth that The Dark Knight Returns lacked. It's all a matter of personal taste I suppose. But I think that key difference between ADULT and MATURE is knowing which button to push when.
Interesting article. While I certainly don't disagree that not everything needs to be gritty and "mature," I do think there is something to be said about wanting our games to grow with us. As an example, I'm really not sure if I could ever truly enjoy another Zelda game again. It's not because I want to see Link slashing an Octorok to pieces with blood and guts everywhere, it's because there are aspects to the series that do very much appeal to me but it feels like the game hasn't grown or progressed at all. The series may not need to "grow up" (and well it shouldn't) but I can't help feeling it needs to expand and evolve.
You see people make the assumption that you can only have grim and gritty or rainbow bright, that's not true, personally my problem with stuff I enjoyed as a kid now that I'm an adult is I can see glaring plot-holes a mile-wide and sloppy dialogue splattered with pop culture references that I once thought were funny.
You can stay true to a theme while actually upgrading the franchise with decent writing and story telling.
You can stay true to a theme while actually upgrading the franchise with decent writing and story telling.
I think your missing the point. The A-team movie isn't looking to create a dark, and grim movie about a brutal spec-ops team. Its still maintaining the lightness of tone and the fun of the original series. Seriously dude, think before you compare. (P.S. nobody is impressed that you saw an R-rated movie at the age of five.)Furburt said:
Anyway, as to the rest of it, let me state that I am only just now to be considered an adult. This means that I have grown up as the minority in geek terms, by enjoying things that were meant for my age. I for one think the greater problem is glorifying such grim, gritty and angst-filled products and thus making them more interesting to younger kids. My friends refused to buy the DS because it came from Nintendo, the video game makers who didn't have M-rated games. Other friends read Halo novels rather than stuff like Redwall (a book series that is much better even if it features woodland creatures). Its sad really that young nerds are so impressionable and their most common impression is that "blood is cool." Its even scarier when you think that if this becomes their basis, what will they look to when they have nostalgia. We have such things as Mario, Link and other colorful fun, they'll just have more Halo or God of War.
I would like to watch the things I grew up with grow, and yes I would like to see them eventually die. I would like to see today's kids get their own heroes like Airbender, Xiao Lin Showdown, Pokemon, and others, and they too would like those things to grow with them, as they watch the kids they babysat get their own heroes which in turn grow, evolve, and die.
Currently geek fiction is in a constant state of purgatory, how many times does Lex Luthor have to try to take over the world, how many times does Link have to save Hyrule, how often does James Bond have to escape the overly elaborate and exotic death? Thank god for the Danial Craig version that made the series real and new and relevant again, thank god for J.J. Abrams making new shows like "Lost" and "Alias", and for Joss Whedon trying to make new Sci-Fi universes and fantasy genres with "Firefly" and "Buffy" inventing the Sci-Fi western political thriller and the comedic superhero supernatural detective genre (cause Twilight, Dresden Files, Laura K. Hamilton, P.C. Cast all owe a debt to him in that regard).
Thank god for the shit that is Twilight, do you all realize that that one book series brought more women into the geek fold than anything else made in the last... EVER! They will move past that series into better stuff, they will join Vampire and World of Darkness roleplaying games, they will be our girlfriends when the supply of Manga fan girls runs out.
We need new things! And yeah, I like Iron Man, and yeah I like Spiderman, but since they were never allowed to grow up we see them make the same mistakes they always do, the Marvel Universe will never get better, it will never get more diverse, it will never die, instead it will slowly turn into a complete zombie as the cultural icons like Spiderman pull readers into limbo with them, and no new characters will ever be allowed to find readers, and will never be able to grow and change.
Currently geek fiction is in a constant state of purgatory, how many times does Lex Luthor have to try to take over the world, how many times does Link have to save Hyrule, how often does James Bond have to escape the overly elaborate and exotic death? Thank god for the Danial Craig version that made the series real and new and relevant again, thank god for J.J. Abrams making new shows like "Lost" and "Alias", and for Joss Whedon trying to make new Sci-Fi universes and fantasy genres with "Firefly" and "Buffy" inventing the Sci-Fi western political thriller and the comedic superhero supernatural detective genre (cause Twilight, Dresden Files, Laura K. Hamilton, P.C. Cast all owe a debt to him in that regard).
Thank god for the shit that is Twilight, do you all realize that that one book series brought more women into the geek fold than anything else made in the last... EVER! They will move past that series into better stuff, they will join Vampire and World of Darkness roleplaying games, they will be our girlfriends when the supply of Manga fan girls runs out.
We need new things! And yeah, I like Iron Man, and yeah I like Spiderman, but since they were never allowed to grow up we see them make the same mistakes they always do, the Marvel Universe will never get better, it will never get more diverse, it will never die, instead it will slowly turn into a complete zombie as the cultural icons like Spiderman pull readers into limbo with them, and no new characters will ever be allowed to find readers, and will never be able to grow and change.