Stealing From the Next Generation

[oktalist]

Wallet chains were cool at one point?

REALLY?

No, he just thought they were.

 

[Ghostkai]

Wow, nail on the head... But, I shouldn't be too surprised, it was like reading an episode of The Game Overthinker (which for anyone who isn't familiar, Bob does on Screwattack, and youtube).

 

[Stone Cold Monkey]

1) Aiming a story at children is going to restrict your art. Are Wall-E and Up good films? Fuck yes, I loved them. Will they ever have as much brilliance and meaning oh what are my top 3 adult films, say Godfather, Blade Runner or A Clockwork Orange? No, never. Not their fault, but simply aiming it at a younger audience means you have to sacrifice some artistic merit. Want an example from the same director? Look at the difference in quality between Ponyo and Princess Mononoke. (And I liked Ponyo before I hear it).

Here's the thing with that, hardcore/mature/gritty also tend to restrict that art as well. More so, in some cases (read Bob's Robin in the next Batman movie argument). Most of the time, the art is aimed at the 13 year old mentality. It is simply made that way to keep younger children out, making it seem more 'adult' and less childish. The plot is often simple, but that's okay because it is HARDCORE. Even the movies you mention could easily have the violence toned down (with the exception of A Clockwork Orange because that was the point) and still hold up because the gritty elements were only a small part of what made those films great.

The funny thing about "mature" content is that it's almost always aimed at a 14 year olds vision of what's mature, making it so there's now two definitions of "mature"

Mature themes are things that can be thought about and discussed, stuff that can have more than one question and more than one answer, and can be talked about between friends and family, all of whom will have a different view on what it means and how much it matters. (for example, the theme of growing old in Up)

Mature content is as shallow and pandering as possible, containing nothing more thought provoking than, "Damn, that's so cool!" or, "Damn, that's hardcore!" and never seeking to be anything more than that. (this is roughly 90% of games right now, and if you don't believe me, try striking up a conversation on the thematic elements of Gears of War)

Fortunately, quality will always find a way to survive, and I have no doubt in my mind that stuff like Shadow of the Colossus or Super Mario Galaxy will have much longer lives than those of Halo and Killzone.

I agree with you SatansBestBuddy. I have long since moved past the need for my geek enjoyment to be mature so I can enjoy it. At the end of the novel A Clockwork Orange, like Alex, I'm somewhat bored by the ultra-violence and this constant need to make things hardcore. I believe it is this arrested development that is part of the reason that keeps video games considered equal to film in our culture.

 

[RTR]

Bob always tells some kickass stories.
Very nice, Bob. I see several nods to some of your Overthinker videos. You should've brought up how these days the term "hardcore" revolvs around that series of superficial marketing ideas rather than the quality of the content.
It's a shame to see 30 something year olds complaining in some forum about how Super Mario Galaxy 2 looks so "infantile", so therefore by association, crappy.
I grew up with Pokemon, and while I don't really care much for it right now, I wouldn't want it to change into what you described at the beginning of this column. Personally, I conisder myself a geek and a kid at heart and I like it. That's why I'm 18 and I still keep an open mind to things not directly intended for people my age (like a animated movie or cartoon on TV that isn't anime or on Adult Swim) and take a liking to it.
BTW, that evil Pikachu will be keeping me up at night.

 

[RTR]

This is why I'm a big fan, Bob.

 

[Not G. Ivingname]

That monster Pikacu will haunt my dreams for years. Thank you Movie Bob!

 

[GothmogII]

You know their is a reason why alot of companies are trying to make things more "mature" and why some people want more mature versions of things they grew up with. Its because people grow up and are nolonger entertained by the same things so the companies are trying to get those audiences back. When the A-team first came out that sort of humor and non violence was acceptable and people enjoyed it. However in todays society most people want blood and violence so inorder to actually make money they will cater to those people. As people grow older their tastes change but due to nostalgia they want their old favourite shows to change aswell so they can continue watching them.

Can't really say I disagree with any of this...although I did find that opening bit hilarious once I figured out what it was leading to.

1) Aiming a story at children is going to restrict your art. Are Wall-E and Up good films? Fuck yes, I loved them. Will they ever have as much brilliance and meaning oh what are my top 3 adult films, say Godfather, Blade Runner or A Clockwork Orange? No, never.

Why not?

I think that should be fairly obvious. On one side you have lighthearted childrens movies and on the other side you have movies meant for adults along that explore that darker and more psychological side of things. With childerns movies it will amost always have a happy ending, the main characters always gets the girl and nobody good dies. Now when your working with all that it kind of limits what you can actually do with a movie. Adult movies though like godfather and clockwork orange dont have those limitations and can work with deepers undertones and themes.

If you cant see why a childrens movie wont ever be as brilliant of meaningfull as clockwork orange then well I kind of feel sorry for you, unless of course you are still fairly young.

*cough* Watership Down. Eh? Prime example of a serious children's film. Anyway, he wasn't saying that children's films can't explore darker or deeper things, he was talking about us as adults expecting the things -we- liked as children to be brought more in line with our tastes as adults, which...is debatable as to whether it works, as a number of people have pointed out, mature often seems to end up as puerile rather than truly mature.

Although, I don't think that media originally aimed at children is somehow sacrosanct either, or that we're 'stealing' anything. As long as the execution is done well, what's the problem, the companies are still going to make games for kids, and games for adults, and games for adults that were once games for kids and back again.

 

[Elesar]

Here's the thing with that, hardcore/mature/gritty also tend to restrict that art as well. More so, in some cases (read Bob's Robin in the next Batman movie argument). Most of the time, the art is aimed at the 13 year old mentality. It is simply made that way to keep younger children out, making it seem more 'adult' and less childish. The plot is often simple, but that's okay because it is HARDCORE. Even the movies you mention could easily have the violence toned down (with the exception of A Clockwork Orange because that was the point) and still hold up because the gritty elements were only a small part of what made those films great.[/quote]

Ummm, not as much as you think. Feeling that you have to be HARDCORE means that you're just not a good storyteller, so it generally means I'm going to ignore you. There is a difference between Mature and HARDCORE, and I want to make that clear. Simply put, Heavy Rain was mature, Gears of War was HARDCORE. Or, to use the medium on display here, No Country For Old Men is mature, S.W.A.T. is HARDCORE! You understand the difference. If you're being HARDCORE for no other reason than you want to appeal to 13 year old boys, then you're an idiot and I don't want to have anything to do with you.

And frankly no, all of my examples NEED to be violent and mature. The Godfather could have toned down the violence, but it would have killed most of it's effect. It's a mob story...where no one gets killed and it's not bloody? What mob are you thinking of? It would have killed the realism.

And as for Blade Runner, do you think the scenes in which the androids were executed would have been NEARLY as effective if they hadn't been bloody and disturbing.

Again, I agree with Bob and I'm not saying every intelligent story has to be dark and bloody and impossible to take your kids to. But I am saying the conscious decision to make kids your primary audience is going to limit the stories you can tell and how you can tell them. Doesn't mean your movie is going to end up being Apocalypse Now.

 

[pigmy wurm]

I do and don't agree with you. I think things should grow and change or else the will stagnate. However, that is different from becoming grim and gritty, you can make a game more serious and more mature is ways that are far less juvenile than what is normally employed.

But the second part of the problem is that as the properties you enjoyed grow up, new ones need to step into the void. In the world of video games I have not seen any interesting new licenses being marketed to kids now that so many games from the 8 and 16 bit eras have become T and M ratted. I tried to buy a game for my younger cousin for the Wii (the console supposedly for kids and old people) and the only game I could find for him was Super Mario Galaxy (although his parents are a little strict). Back in the NES era games that weren't appropriate for kids me were the exception, now they are the norm and kids only tend to get the dregs of the development teams.

 

[MorteSphere]

I use "Hardcore" as a sarcastic term. It fits quite well.

 

[GothmogII]

I do and don't agree with you. I think things should grow and change or else the will stagnate. However, that is different from becoming grim and gritty, you can make a game more serious and more mature is ways that are far less juvenile than what is normally employed.

But the second part of the problem is that as the properties you enjoyed grow up, new ones need to step into the void. In the world of video games I have not seen any interesting new licenses being marketed to kids now that so many games from the 8 and 16 bit eras have become T and M ratted. I tried to buy a game for my younger cousin for the Wii (the console supposedly for kids and old people) and the only game I could find for him was Super Mario Galaxy (although his parents are a little strict). Back in the NES era games that weren't appropriate for kids me were the exception, now they are the norm and kids only tend to get the dregs of the development teams.

It is possible, only positing here, but, that if people are so enamoured with the old properties that then the companies see no need to put out new franchises. I suppose, the executives think, hey, people are still buying Super Mario Super Awesome Backpacking Adventure XVI in droves. If it ain't broke why fix?

It's like an evil mobius strip.

 

[Crunchy English]

I am so sick of being told about "maturity". I'm 21 years old and I have to pay for my car, my school, rent, etc. My life forces a bunch of maturity on my shoulders and personally? I think it sucks. Its all responsibility and caution and discretion. Screw that.

I want to wake up at 6AM and watch cartoons while eating Captain Crunch. I want to sleep till 3PM cause I have nowhere to be. I want to spend a few nights a week pretending to be a Knight, or a Time-Travelling Super Solider, or a writer in the Northwest solving a mystery. I want spend 1 night a week rolling dice and laughing, groaning and sweating over the results!

Life has plenty of "maturity" waiting for me that I can't avoid. Shooting aliens till their guts spill out has nothing to do with maturity and everything to do with immaturity, which is what I'm after most of the time anyway. Rape, abortion and racism might be interesting, difficult or important topics, and they have a place in any art medium, but they aren't what I want most of the time.

 

[Ravek]

I can't agree with this. As much as moviebob thinks the camp stuff deserves to have a place, I think the grimdark stuff deserves its place. I don't see how saying 'everything should be darker and edgier!' is any worse than saying 'everything should be tongue-in-cheek and colorful'.

 

[Arjen Swellengrebel]

Does no-one remember that Lord of the Rings was made as the "grown-up, hardcore" version of the Hobbit because it was meant for the same audience, who had grown out of riddle-asking?

Things turning hardcore isn't a bad thing in itself. It's just poorly done most of the time!

 

[Covarr]

I agree with this article, to a point. For the most part, things that aren't edgy shouldn't be made edgy just for the sake of it. Sonic the Hedgehog tried it in 2006, look how that turned out.

On the other hand, Batman is better for it. I'll be honest, I loved Adam West's Batman, and I love Batman: The Brave and the Bold, but dark Batman is really something incredible when handled correctly (read, Batman the Animated Series, The Dark Knight, and Arkham Asylum) and I wouldn't want to miss out on that just for the sake of keeping him the way he was in the 1960s.

tl;dr - Making something edgier can work, but there needs to be a good reason, and plenty of thought put into it.

P.S. Thanks

 

[Blueruler182]

I agree entirely. I'm 18, I had depression for 11 years and dealt with it when I was 17. I'm tired of depression, and I find it amazing that so many people are seeking it out. I'm tired of watching it, I'm tired of talking about it, and I'm tired of reading about it. When it's a legitimately good story, fine. But my childhood was depression, I don't need that illustrated by Kim Possible slitting Draken's throat with her grapple.

Look at some of the Disney movies from ten years ago. Tarzan was as gritty as a kids movie/show/cartoon should get. Pixar's doing a fantastic job. I rewatch the Incredibles every now and then because it's an amazing movie with actual real-world elements to it (Bob and Ellen arguing while going to rescue their kids is fantastic). Iron Man for the same reason, even if his drinking does get a little over the top, it's funny.

 

[ccesarano]

I was still in high school when the whole "Zelda? More like Celda!" crap started, and I also bitched at Nintendo.

I was in College when Twilight Princess came out, and I found it nifty, but something...different. A couple years later I realized that my favorite Zelda games were always colorful, and though A Link to the Past had some mature shit go down (they killed a priest, man!) it was still relatively PG. Hell, Land Before Time was PG and it's still sad when Little Foot confuses his shadow for his mom.

So I've reached the point where I think Nintendo should do whatever the fuck they want with Zelda because it's always been for family and meant to encapsulate that feeling of "let's go exploring in the woods!". Let other companies take that concept and "mature it up". Something I fully endorse!

Then Darksiders did just that and everyone called it derivative because they're a bunch of dumb ass fucking hacks.

I love games, but I hate this industry.