I played WoW before I came to LotRO and it was lots of fun to read your article. But I prefer the LotRO system for one reason. While it is more grind and less fun (even if we have deeds like "Drink 23 different special beers and wines") we receive rewards that actually improve our characters even across the level increase. That's something that WoW never managed.
196: Achieving Azeroth
- Thread starter John Funk
- Start date
Yep, look how far WoW has come, immersive and complex raid encounters to colourful boxes that flash for when you've grinded the same content that you already completed (I don't have pretty much all my fishing achievements a part the STV contest ones because I have those items still) and/or grinded it a slightly different way.
Yah! Doing Naxx with 5people so you can get an achievement is totally new and interesting content!
Achievements is one of those things that is the downfall of WoW, they are a lazy excuse to not have good content.
Yah! Doing Naxx with 5people so you can get an achievement is totally new and interesting content!
Achievements is one of those things that is the downfall of WoW, they are a lazy excuse to not have good content.
Man I remember the day 3.0 came out, I went absolutley (for lack of a better phrase) batshit crazy trying to get every possible achievment I could without Wrath being out. And none of the big ones everyone else was going for, I threw together a marauding band of old world raiders and we spent each night taking down a different 40man on our different characters.
It was absolute, dare I say, Madness!
It was absolute, dare I say, Madness!
So you didFunkytrix said:Epixxx! Like the article.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Sisters+of+Elune&n=Tieria
Got it right on first click?
Hmph, alliance maggots! Red wunz go fasta!
I want a DeathchargerAzaradel said:
Lucky! Though I have to say, walking around with my Mini-Tyrael is pretty fun...
Don't get me wrong, I think the Tome of Knowledge is great. I really like WAR, and the crew at Mythic is good people. But I'm not sure what's so different about them? In WAR, aren't the vast majority of achievements like "Kill 1/10/1000/5000/10000/50000 Witch Elves," so on and so forth? (It's been a while since I played, so please feel free to correct me if that's not the case) In that case, it seems less a matter of achieving something, and more a matter of just rewarding players for playing for a long time.Fearzone said:
What do you prefer about WAR achievements?
I totally see the appeal in the LotRO system. Hindmarch's article is a good one this week.dirk45 said:
I don't think that achievements necessarily go against having complex and immersive raid encounters at all. Look at the Malygos fight - or, for that matter, Sartharion (and the Drakes). Look at all the stuff coming in Ulduar.Wingmna said:
Achievements - and Hard Modes for bosses - are one of the best ideas Blizzard has had for WoW yet. It lets everyone see the content and experience the lore/storyline, but then you have the hard modes which offer better rewards, achievements, and bragging rights, so the hardcore can still have their challenge and get rewarded for it.
Also, I think some achievements actually *change* the way you tackle some raid encounters. Ok, maybe not the "Do Naxx with 8(20 on heroic) people" or "Kill Patchwerk in under 3 minutes," but stuff like "Kill Loatheb without killing any Fungal Spores," or "Make sure all the Four Horsemen die within 15 seconds of each other" actually changes how you approach the fights instead of just doing the same old thing over and over again.
But really, I think Ulduar is easily WoW's most ambitious raid dungeon yet, so... there's your complex and immersive raid
Boy, I know how that feels.KeyMaster45 said:
I have to say, it was kind of fun to run into AQ40 at 80 with my fellow raiders and stomp Huhuran's face in.
CantFaketheFunk, you can keep giving as many excuses as you want.
OS + Malygos are hardly enough enough content for one expansion. Compared with TBC? Lets see, by this time we have Kara, Gruul, Mag, SSC, TE, and BT. Sure they had bugs, but TBH, to those who cared about gaming, bugs were only something more to over come for respect. WoW fanboys can pull the same shit they want, as much as they want... e.g. "oh the game has just changed" which just tries to deny the fact that Blizzard was completely lazy on actual raiding content, or in your case "oh Blizzard just made sure there were no bugs" which is even more pathetic considering the original Naxx was pre-TBC and they had for the most part fixed all the bugs.
Please, having solely two new encounters coming with the whole xpack as a unit is pathetic and you are completely moronic if you actually think OS and Maly makes up for the fact that there are no other new raid encounters.
Hardmode is just another way of saying, "lets be lazy on the actual encounter, but capitalise on ONE single aspect so we can make players grind that encounter. Achievements are NOT what raiders want, and you are an ignorant newbie if you actually think achievements make up for the lack of content that Blizzard provided. Blizzard didn't send anyone an invoice stating that the game had changed to "casual mode", so the fault is theirs.
Would I have any problems with Achievements if they actually still provided the same type of content they did before? Sure I wouldn't. But they are not. Again, you are completely stupid (and again, a newbie) if you actually think making the actual encounter easy but focusing on ONE aspect makes up for lazy design of that encounter.
Why do I say this? Because original Naxx was made for it's time. It is moronic to try and place a pre-TBC in WOTLK content because many abilities have been added and changed. And this just shows Blizzard's laziness in the simple fact that they actually simplify the fights more AND don't recognise the fact that things have changed over two xpacks.
Sorry, but I've seen you posting before, you are just an ignorant WoW-fanboy. Who spams his opinion even though many others whether on this site or on other WoW sites have proved to you otherwise. You have chosen a side and will stick by it, so I know this post won;'t convince you otherwise... When WoW was first starting out I defended it even while others stated that Blizzard had no history in MMORPG history, but I can see plainly when things are going down hill, but you cannot sir.
So keep going on your ignorant ways. "WoW going casual" is just another phrase for "Blizzard is getting lazy of real content". Don't be an ignorant fool like you are already showing, less content doesn't mean WoW has gone casual, it means WoW has gone lazy. The Activision/Blizzard merge only proves that fact more, WoW doesn't care about content anymore, it cares about money... And you are a fucking moron if you actually believe otherwise.
And you jumping to the conclusion that Ulduar is "the best dungeon eva dog", only proves how much of a fanboy you are. You are pathetic, how about you take stuff objective for once Funk instead of being the 'Blizzard's retard' you are now. There is NO doubt in EVERY players mind that there was a huge lack of content that didn't ship with WOTLK, but moronic fanboys like yourself are the only ones say that you don't see it. Get the fucking blindfold off of your eyes and see.
I don't doubt that your job is hard enough, jumping from board to board or from forum to forum trying to defend WoW. And I try not to say "defend Blizzard" since the different parts of Blizzard have nothing to do with each other. WoW is solely a money making machine now, and you are ignorant if you believe otherwise.
OS + Malygos are hardly enough enough content for one expansion. Compared with TBC? Lets see, by this time we have Kara, Gruul, Mag, SSC, TE, and BT. Sure they had bugs, but TBH, to those who cared about gaming, bugs were only something more to over come for respect. WoW fanboys can pull the same shit they want, as much as they want... e.g. "oh the game has just changed" which just tries to deny the fact that Blizzard was completely lazy on actual raiding content, or in your case "oh Blizzard just made sure there were no bugs" which is even more pathetic considering the original Naxx was pre-TBC and they had for the most part fixed all the bugs.
Please, having solely two new encounters coming with the whole xpack as a unit is pathetic and you are completely moronic if you actually think OS and Maly makes up for the fact that there are no other new raid encounters.
Hardmode is just another way of saying, "lets be lazy on the actual encounter, but capitalise on ONE single aspect so we can make players grind that encounter. Achievements are NOT what raiders want, and you are an ignorant newbie if you actually think achievements make up for the lack of content that Blizzard provided. Blizzard didn't send anyone an invoice stating that the game had changed to "casual mode", so the fault is theirs.
Would I have any problems with Achievements if they actually still provided the same type of content they did before? Sure I wouldn't. But they are not. Again, you are completely stupid (and again, a newbie) if you actually think making the actual encounter easy but focusing on ONE aspect makes up for lazy design of that encounter.
Why do I say this? Because original Naxx was made for it's time. It is moronic to try and place a pre-TBC in WOTLK content because many abilities have been added and changed. And this just shows Blizzard's laziness in the simple fact that they actually simplify the fights more AND don't recognise the fact that things have changed over two xpacks.
Sorry, but I've seen you posting before, you are just an ignorant WoW-fanboy. Who spams his opinion even though many others whether on this site or on other WoW sites have proved to you otherwise. You have chosen a side and will stick by it, so I know this post won;'t convince you otherwise... When WoW was first starting out I defended it even while others stated that Blizzard had no history in MMORPG history, but I can see plainly when things are going down hill, but you cannot sir.
So keep going on your ignorant ways. "WoW going casual" is just another phrase for "Blizzard is getting lazy of real content". Don't be an ignorant fool like you are already showing, less content doesn't mean WoW has gone casual, it means WoW has gone lazy. The Activision/Blizzard merge only proves that fact more, WoW doesn't care about content anymore, it cares about money... And you are a fucking moron if you actually believe otherwise.
And you jumping to the conclusion that Ulduar is "the best dungeon eva dog", only proves how much of a fanboy you are. You are pathetic, how about you take stuff objective for once Funk instead of being the 'Blizzard's retard' you are now. There is NO doubt in EVERY players mind that there was a huge lack of content that didn't ship with WOTLK, but moronic fanboys like yourself are the only ones say that you don't see it. Get the fucking blindfold off of your eyes and see.
I don't doubt that your job is hard enough, jumping from board to board or from forum to forum trying to defend WoW. And I try not to say "defend Blizzard" since the different parts of Blizzard have nothing to do with each other. WoW is solely a money making machine now, and you are ignorant if you believe otherwise.
Like killing the 1000 witch elves, you don't really have to go out of your way to get WAR achievements. Yes yes, no doubt you can list me some where you do have to. But most achievements that most people have you get by just playing the game. So as I said "benign... silly and fun." To wit: "Ow my eye!"CantFaketheFunk said:What do you prefer about WAR achievements?
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Vek%27nilash&n=IkkiCantFaketheFunk said:So you didFunkytrix said:Epixxx! Like the article.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Sisters+of+Elune&n=Tieria
Got it right on first click?
Hmph, alliance maggots! Red wunz go fasta!
I challenge thee to a contest... of... erm... I can't think of anything I could win
First off: You are completely free to disagree with me if you like - hell, we welcome polite disagreement and discussion. If everyone agreed, that would be boring. However, I stress the word polite. Calling someone an idiot and a fool undermines your point, and makes you a candidate for the banhammer. If you can't argue politely, you won't be arguing anything at all. This will be your only warning.Wingmna said:
Now: It's true that there is less content in WotLK launch than there was at TBC launch (even if T6 wasn't in at first). I'm not trying to deny that. But I think that the content is better - Malygos and Sarth 3D are much more intricate fights than their counterparts Gruul / Magtheridon, and Naxxramas is a better Kara. It's true that there isn't a counterpart to TE/SSC yet, and that's a failing.
I completely disagree with you. I think that making an encounter from the ground up like Sartharion with essentially eight different levels of difficulty - three drakes, two difficulty settings - is exponentially more complex than say, just designing one. Magtheridon was one fight; once they had it designed for a group of 25, they could wash their hands of it (except for balance issues). Blizzard had to design not only a base version of Sartharion, but design an encounter that could be progressively scaled upward in difficulty depending on the skill of the raid.
"Casual Mode?" I'm sorry, but you seem to have this bizarre assumption that making a game more accessible to everyone instead of designing content for 5% of the playerbase (at most) is a bad thing? That's a selfish, elitist, and incredibly narrowminded viewpoint.
Original Naxx was some of the best content in the game. The fights were creative, it had an awesome atmosphere and tied in to the lore nicely. Unfortunately, barely anyone ever got to see it. They designed all that creative content, and it literally went to waste. There was absolutely nothing wrong with recycling it as the entry WotLK raid so that people could experience it. Does that excuse the lack of other high-level content? No, it doesn't. Was repurposing it an inherently bad idea? No, it was a fantastic idea.
Simplified the fights? They made them possible for a 25/10-man raid. I'm sorry, but if you liked actually bringing 8 tanks for the sake of one fight... well, that's your problem, not mine. Or what about old Loatheb? That was literally a "hey, buy lots of consumables" fight, and that's poor design. Look at the one fight where they kept the class requirements - 25-man Razuvious - and it's frustrating, because it means that the single barrier to overcoming that fight isn't knowing how to play your class, it's recruiting two priests who can come every time you want to run Heroic Naxx.
Think of me how you will. I play many, many other games other than WoW, many other MMOs even. "Proved to me otherwise"? That's absolutely ridiculous. There's been no proof, only rants from people who need to take the rose-colored nostalgia glasses off and realize that the direction WoW is going - giving people choices in what they want to do - ultimately benefits more people.
Again, I agree with you that the lack of new content in WotLK was regrettable, and one of the few ways in which TBC beats WotLK. But I think that the new content that is there is far and away the best the game has ever seen.
You can cry about "WoW going casual" all you like, but there is a very simple matter here: Blizzard is giving people options. I don't know if you actually remember what pre-BC WoW was like, but there weren't any options - you either A.) found 39 people you could raid with to get epics, B.) spent time in battlegrounds getting your ass handed to you by raiders in order to grind a soul-crushing PvP system to get epics, C.) ran DM/Scholo/Strat/BRS until your eyes bled, or D.) farmed all day.
Maybe it was more "hardcore," but it was also much less accessible.
Did I say that Ulduar was the "Best dungeon ever"? No, and I kindly ask you to stop putting words in my mouth. I said that it is by far the most ambitious dungeon they've done. There's no way of judging how successful it'll be until it's actually come out, but I reserve judgment on that - unlike some people, who seem to thrive on baseless predictions. 11 bosses - more than any other raid dungeon except Naxx and Kara - with two difficulty modes, not to mention that many of those bosses have "Hard Modes." The only thing that really rivals that in scope was original Naxxramas.
The problem WotLK faces is, again, a lack of content. This has nothing to do with the quality of said content. Hard modes do not make up for a lack of content, no - they make the content that exists infinitely more accessible. Your casual players get to go into Ulduar, see the lore, fight a cool boss or ten. Your hardcore players get the best loot, the bragging rights, and the better challenges like Algalon.
This is *smart design.*
I defend WoW because I think many of the complaints levied at it - and Blizzard - are wholly unwarranted, just as I would defend unwarranted complaints against, say, Turbine/LotRO, Mythic/WAR, CCP/EVE, the list goes on and on. Actually knowing some people at these companies, I have a slightly more informed idea of what goes on behind the scenes than most people
Call me a fanboy if it makes you feel better. I like MMOs. I play lots of MMOs. And I think that developing content that more of the playerbase can actually see can be nothing but a good thing.Hate all you want, vote with your wallet. But remember that for every one disenfranchised raider, there are five more casual players in a small guild that never was able to get the numbers to run anything beyond Kara/ZA who are actually getting the chance to see content and lore and who are loving it.
Anyway, I will remind you once again, that you have been warned - if you can't be polite, then don't say anything at all. Or we'll take care of that ourselves.
I will disagree with you here for one, very theorycraft-wonky reason: Patchwerk. Patchwerk, for those who are still reading this thread despite never fighting him, is a boss who hits very fast and (at least on 25 man) relatively hard. He's an example of a boss who gives healers fits because you can't really cancel a heal, because every time you do you run a risk that the tank drops to 40% and you can't catch up. In his original 40 man version, this was fine: this was the last tier of content, so if healers had enough mana to cast nearly forever that wasn't a big deal. In the WotLK version, this is a terrible idea: there are apparently 3 more tiers of raids ahead, and if you're already able to cast without stopping NOW, then what are you going to do for the next 18 months? Cast without stopping 5% faster?CantFaketheFunk said:
So the fact that PvE healer mana is currently severely overtuned can be blamed in part on Patchwerk. (It can also be blamed in part on Blizzard not realizing exactly how good healers were at exploiting new regen mechanics like Replenishment.)
The best way to do the acheivement that stomped you is to make use of all your platforms.
Spend some odd ten extra minutes clearing the room, namely the platforms, and you can just kite the boss around every time he drops a rift. The only thing that is challenging when you keep him kited is when he powers up the rifts as they get insane range, but just get everyone to stack and either spam chain heal or trainquility. And having your tank grab the massive waves of trash spawns. Pally Tanking FTW!
Macgyveer-Mug'thol
Spend some odd ten extra minutes clearing the room, namely the platforms, and you can just kite the boss around every time he drops a rift. The only thing that is challenging when you keep him kited is when he powers up the rifts as they get insane range, but just get everyone to stack and either spam chain heal or trainquility. And having your tank grab the massive waves of trash spawns. Pally Tanking FTW!
Macgyveer-Mug'thol
Well that's part of the reason that they're nerfing mana regen in 3.1, no?incoherent said:
I think that there's a valid complaint when it comes to content being easy, but I'm not entirely sure if that was a failure in the content... or that the content was fine, but all the classes had overpowered new abilities.
My contention is that they made healer mana too strong because they HAD to; otherwise Patchwerk would have been an exercise in frustration and praying to the RNG gods. The 10 man Patchwerk doesn't have nearly this problem because Hateful Strike hits for a quarter of the damage, making it more of a steady stream of incoming damage instead of large, irregular spikes. If they had realized this and made 25 man Patchwerk more different and less recycled from the 40 man version, they might not have felt the need to give healers quite so much mana in the first place.CantFaketheFunk said:
I could also make the alternate contention that they had absolutely no idea that healers would have that much regen, but I'm trying to be charitable to them and come up with an interpretation that doesn't make them look like they don't understand their own game.
Excellent article, it really took me back to all the time I devoted to WoW - I gave it up months before Burning Crusade was released. Reading this almost makes me want to install it again and invest in the expansion packs, but with a baby on the way, I think it would probably be a terrible idea for me to get back into it. What really got me hooked on the game wasn't the questing and PVPing, it was the auction house. For some reason I got more of a thrill during the one or two days that I controlled the copper, silver, gold, and leather markets of the server I was playing on than any of the quests, raids, and battles I participated in. Though spending half a day helping a fellow guild member complete all the druid sea lion quests (whatever they were called) was the best of all my WoW experiences.
I play a lot of COD4 and a bit of TF2 these days (addictions I can control), and am not all that hung up on getting achievements in either game. Hell, I'm happy if I manage to make it anywhere above the bottom five scores.
I play a lot of COD4 and a bit of TF2 these days (addictions I can control), and am not all that hung up on getting achievements in either game. Hell, I'm happy if I manage to make it anywhere above the bottom five scores.
That, and City of Heroes has had loads and loads of achievements since ages ago. They keep on coming, too.Nurb said:
As for me, I feel a shiny red flying albino drake or whatever is more like proof that the player behind this character has wasted hundreds of hours of his or her life for no apparent reason and certainly none valid enough to warrant such a vulgar expense, as well as the fact that WoW has once again become even more pointlessly time-consuming and alienatingly elitist.
Titles like "The Utterly Awesome" serve well to underline the fact that the player in question needs to locate an interior source of self-esteem, rather than derive it from the collection of prefabricated mantles bestowed by their good friend the Blizzard server.
Though I'm not against achievements as such, I feel that WoW perverts their true purpose of being nice little twinkles to add to your sense of accomplishment for doing well at a game, turning them instead into a depressingly obsessive competition where there are no real winners... Why? Same reason everything in the world is so inexplicably huge, and a thousand other things in-game are the way they are: to waste our time and make us buy more months.
/rant
I do love achievements in WoW. Like you said the recognition of your accomplishment being announced to people is really nice and the fact that there are ways for people to see the you have a certain achievement other than taking the time to inspect it.
I have an Xbox 360 but never was an achievement kind of guy cause no one really knew I had the achievements or got them, and most of the people with a high gamer score had a ton of games.
I also love when people try to call games copycats when someone comes out with something after something else. It is called if it works and it is fun do it and try to improve upon it.
Very good article.
I have an Xbox 360 but never was an achievement kind of guy cause no one really knew I had the achievements or got them, and most of the people with a high gamer score had a ton of games.
I also love when people try to call games copycats when someone comes out with something after something else. It is called if it works and it is fun do it and try to improve upon it.
Very good article.
I once thought the achievements in WOW were pointless.
Then I started earning them and now I can't help but go out of my way to collect them.
The achievements are almost as addictive as WOW themselves. 0.0
Then I started earning them and now I can't help but go out of my way to collect them.
The achievements are almost as addictive as WOW themselves. 0.0
looks like you are one of the hundreds of thousands ADD people who never got past lvl 30 in wow or only used a free trial. the game is fun if you dont do anything stupid like grind 70+ enemies in one area. the fun of the game involves following the quests and doing dungeons. mounts make the game fun again for a while, then you finally hit outland, and the game doesnt get boringCigar said: