View From the Road: Where Everybody Knows Your Name
- Thread starter John Funk
- Start date
I think a better way would be to have a permanent name, that never changes, that is displayed ingame, and to all your friends, and have a sort of troll-o-meter where all forum readers can rate the constructiveness of somebody's post. Then you get a sort of 'Forum rank' on a scale of dirty flamer, to noob saviour
Any outright disgusting posts or moderator bans can hang on their profile forever and they will be named and shamed by their friends who could follow links to the offending posts...thats accountability right there, and not a real name in sight
I will have spent money through subscriptions and CD keys on that account, I would want it squeaky clean and show any future clans/guilds that Im a nice person, not a child
Any outright disgusting posts or moderator bans can hang on their profile forever and they will be named and shamed by their friends who could follow links to the offending posts...thats accountability right there, and not a real name in sight
I will have spent money through subscriptions and CD keys on that account, I would want it squeaky clean and show any future clans/guilds that Im a nice person, not a child
If only there was a way to smack people through the internet. I believe Penny-Arcade had a comic for something like that too.
I cant believe the otcry that came from the whole thing...
Well, not so much believe, but, shocked really might be the better word...peoeples name, that in itself, isnt so much of a terrible thing.
There certainly is the privacy issue, but, I think this is really just an issue for people who let it become one...who flippantly let loose there details about where they live, exact aree, ect. without seeing if a trust source
Well, not so much believe, but, shocked really might be the better word...peoeples name, that in itself, isnt so much of a terrible thing.
There certainly is the privacy issue, but, I think this is really just an issue for people who let it become one...who flippantly let loose there details about where they live, exact aree, ect. without seeing if a trust source
For me the problem is with the Blizzard forums themselves. Currently they have bad reputation. From my experiences there are only a few threads that you can find meaningfull discussions. In no way I want my name to be linked to such environment. And it would be silly to think that everything will change the instant they implement RealID. Blizzard needs to clean it's house first - close the door on the disruptive and rude. Only then they can ask me to give up on my privacy for the better experience.
Well, Funk, You pretty much hit every point I had that put me in favour of the RealID system. And while I also shared your concerns with it, I apparently didn't weight them as strongly as you did, because I still think it's a good idea, and that they should have stuck to their guns.
I 100% agree with you that the opt-out system is no better than the way things are now - In fact, they may even be worse.
With an opt-out system, people playing by the rules may still opt to show their name, but no troll in the universe is going to. This puts trolls in a position to stay anonymous, while abusing people who actually went wit the plan.
At least as it was originally planned, they'd be held to the same degree of accountability for what they said and did as anyone else.
I also agree that it would have been a fascinating social experiment. I would have loved to have seen the result.
-m
Matt Wiggins would have posted on the WoW forums under his RealID unconcerned, now he will be opting out.
I 100% agree with you that the opt-out system is no better than the way things are now - In fact, they may even be worse.
With an opt-out system, people playing by the rules may still opt to show their name, but no troll in the universe is going to. This puts trolls in a position to stay anonymous, while abusing people who actually went wit the plan.
At least as it was originally planned, they'd be held to the same degree of accountability for what they said and did as anyone else.
I also agree that it would have been a fascinating social experiment. I would have loved to have seen the result.
-m
Matt Wiggins would have posted on the WoW forums under his RealID unconcerned, now he will be opting out.
I'm not really more convinced by this argument because of a Penny Arcade strip. Maybe some sociologists have something to say about it but I think that what people see as being normal or accepted behaviour is more important than what their screen name is. Does Bono act like he is Jesus because Bono isn't his real name or because he has adopted what he thinks is a good rock star persona and his job is being a rock star?
Persona or not Bono is personally identifiable and accountable to his identity.More Fun To Compute said:
And psychology and Sociology have both long concluded that with increasing degrees of anonymity people are increasingly likely to act in ways they otherwise wouldn't.
Give me a few and I'll see if I can dredge up some examples.
-m
People who have never been there just know 4chans rep. The reality is that once you are released from strictures of meatspace society, including repercussions, and the only currency is cleverness then magic starts to happen.
Almost all of the internet memes everyone loves originated on 4chan. 4chan is the very essence of what freedom is.
Freedom is sometimes messy, ugly, painful, and annoying. But it is also something worth defending. The internet is great because of freedom, where people aren't looking over their shoulders all the time or censoring themselves based on arbitrary requirements or possible future consequences.
The nature of power is that it will ALWAYS be abused to the benefit of the powerful and the detriment to the powerless. And the only defense against that abuse is anonymity. Anonymity makes the powerful impotent and that is why it is hated not only by the powerful but also by sycophants who believe they will be spared if they ingratiate themselves thoroughly enough to their masters.
The future isn't Facebook. It is Freenet and frameworks like it, where the only information available about you is what you explicitly give.
Almost all of the internet memes everyone loves originated on 4chan. 4chan is the very essence of what freedom is.
Freedom is sometimes messy, ugly, painful, and annoying. But it is also something worth defending. The internet is great because of freedom, where people aren't looking over their shoulders all the time or censoring themselves based on arbitrary requirements or possible future consequences.
The nature of power is that it will ALWAYS be abused to the benefit of the powerful and the detriment to the powerless. And the only defense against that abuse is anonymity. Anonymity makes the powerful impotent and that is why it is hated not only by the powerful but also by sycophants who believe they will be spared if they ingratiate themselves thoroughly enough to their masters.
The future isn't Facebook. It is Freenet and frameworks like it, where the only information available about you is what you explicitly give.
Heh, glad you ended up posting something about the whole RealID thing after all.
To be honest, though, I'm really not sure even your last suggestion would work. I think the entire RealID thing, or any trace of it, is just a wholly bad idea.
Let's assume that Mr. Eponymous Serial Killer, who plays a Mage in World of Warcraft, sees my post on a popular WoW thread explaining why a certain Mage build isn't viable and that people who use it in-game are idiots. Now, in case you couldn't tell from his name (don't know what his parents were thinking there), Mr. Killer isn't entirely "with it". He interprets my post as an invitation to kill me.
I have a fairly unique name, so it probably won't be that tough for him to find out the rest of my information. Using his vast network of serial killer buddies, he uses multiple computers to find my address online.
I'm found dead the next day because I was dishing out too much Mage hate. So it goes. But, the [City where Timbydude lives, which you will never know] Police Department thinks to go to that post and find out who exactly could be the culprit. Unfortunately, tons of people viewed it. Though everyone's real name is up there, it still really doesn't solve the dilemma. They have no idea who, in that sea of names, it could possibly be.
Keep in mind that he could have used public computers or those of friends to do his online searches (or he might know a guy who can get past the system, as would be inevitable), so they could try to track based on whitepages.com searches and the like, but their search would probably be fruitless.
Now, obviously, I'm using an extreme example, but hopefully you get my point. The two demographics of WoW players and 4Chan posters share a greater overlap than might be immediately apparent. Also, keep in mind that the average WoW player is more skilled with internet tools (such as finding out one's address from their name alone) than a lot of other places on the internet. On those forums, there are some seriously messed up people who would have access to your real name were the RealID scenario a reality.
So, basically, short of Big Brother putting tracking chips on everyone to find out where we are at all times (which would obviously be worse because that gives everyone a complete and utter lack of privacy), I really don't think RealID could ever be a truly safe reality for anyone. There are just too many factors that could endanger people, and essentially it would just force everyone with a semi-unique name off the forums entirely.
To be honest, though, I'm really not sure even your last suggestion would work. I think the entire RealID thing, or any trace of it, is just a wholly bad idea.
Let's assume that Mr. Eponymous Serial Killer, who plays a Mage in World of Warcraft, sees my post on a popular WoW thread explaining why a certain Mage build isn't viable and that people who use it in-game are idiots. Now, in case you couldn't tell from his name (don't know what his parents were thinking there), Mr. Killer isn't entirely "with it". He interprets my post as an invitation to kill me.
I have a fairly unique name, so it probably won't be that tough for him to find out the rest of my information. Using his vast network of serial killer buddies, he uses multiple computers to find my address online.
I'm found dead the next day because I was dishing out too much Mage hate. So it goes. But, the [City where Timbydude lives, which you will never know] Police Department thinks to go to that post and find out who exactly could be the culprit. Unfortunately, tons of people viewed it. Though everyone's real name is up there, it still really doesn't solve the dilemma. They have no idea who, in that sea of names, it could possibly be.
Keep in mind that he could have used public computers or those of friends to do his online searches (or he might know a guy who can get past the system, as would be inevitable), so they could try to track based on whitepages.com searches and the like, but their search would probably be fruitless.
Now, obviously, I'm using an extreme example, but hopefully you get my point. The two demographics of WoW players and 4Chan posters share a greater overlap than might be immediately apparent. Also, keep in mind that the average WoW player is more skilled with internet tools (such as finding out one's address from their name alone) than a lot of other places on the internet. On those forums, there are some seriously messed up people who would have access to your real name were the RealID scenario a reality.
So, basically, short of Big Brother putting tracking chips on everyone to find out where we are at all times (which would obviously be worse because that gives everyone a complete and utter lack of privacy), I really don't think RealID could ever be a truly safe reality for anyone. There are just too many factors that could endanger people, and essentially it would just force everyone with a semi-unique name off the forums entirely.
John, you did a good job summarising the surface debate, but you assumed Blizzard was honest, and thus you're ignoring one of the larger swaths of the resistance: Those who believed Blizzard were not being honest, and that this was all about a deal brokered with Facebook. This isn't a trivial point. I saw the Facebook theory as quite credible, and it deserves a mention.
Except we knew the terms of the Facebook deal (how it would work with RealID) back in May or whenever it was first announced. You connect your RealID with your Facebook account, and it can auto-connect you with your Facebook friends who also have RealID who you might not have known played the game.BlindChance said:
This, in itself, is actually really convenient - I found like three or four of my other Facebook friends in the StarCraft 2 beta that I'd have never met otherwise.
But the Facebook connection, as with RealID itself, is wholly optional. I don't think the Facebook "theory" is anything more than conspiracy theory rumormongering. There's nowhere near enough evidence for me to treat it as anything remotely credible. And frankly, if this were a business deal Blizzard could never have backed down or it would be in trouble.
I don't need to be convinced that anonymity can change people's behaviour but what I would take issue with is that is always for the worse or it is the main influence on this bad behaviour. Not everyone is a saint in real life. I know for a fact that plenty of people are racist, offensive and trollish to people who know their real names. Those people are often seen as being people with great personal skills.Matt_LRR said:
To make a point about comparing online communications in games there is the example of Japan. In Japan there are also bullies and all sorts of offensive people but when Japanese people chat in online games they are almost painfully polite and considerate. Using the same online systems with fake names.
Even switching from European to US servers sometimes I can sort of feel a change in atmosphere straight away. Less laid back. In the few times when I've played with French gamers who speak a little English they were sort of rude and not really patient but they were also very positive and friendly. Those are more anecdotal, but pretty much everyone agrees about Japanese gamers.
I believe its a fallacy to think that real names would make everyone "play nice" on any forum. 4chan isn't a cesspool because of anonymity (although it may help), and GI.biz is cordial because they're forced to use real names. I would gather that the community surrounding those dictates more of what makes those places good or bad; anonymity has nothing to do with it. While I do love the PA comic about anonymity, I don't think it applies in all cases.
Real names is not the only method of getting accountability or quality; it can easily be implemented with one-to-one, unchangable nicknames.
Don't believe me tho; try someone that has dealt with online communities for over 35 years:
http://habitatchronicles.com/2010/07/realid-and-wow-forums-classic-identity-design-mistake
Real names is not the only method of getting accountability or quality; it can easily be implemented with one-to-one, unchangable nicknames.
Don't believe me tho; try someone that has dealt with online communities for over 35 years:
http://habitatchronicles.com/2010/07/realid-and-wow-forums-classic-identity-design-mistake