I'm sorry but I'm just not as secure with who I am as Mel Gibson is. So I'm going to log onto wow, roll a human, name him Melgibbon, then go to town.
Oh yeah For the Horde!
Oh yeah For the Horde!
View From the Road: Where Everybody Knows Your Name
- Thread starter John Funk
- Start date
Excellent article. Here's hoping that the inevitable flames against it don't rise too high!
The process here is identical to the process in business an extended relationship forces people to act polite in their own interests because they could destroy the relationship if they act like the assholes they are but a short term relationship (like a single anonymous post) fosters dickary because the relationship will be terminated right away anyways. There are plenty of wolfs (i.e. idiots) hiding among us keep in check by the need to function in society but allowing them to not have to deal with further consequences brings out their nasty streak if we force them to stay hide behind their facade then they will act polite even if they are raging morons.
From a purely anthropological point of view I really wanted to know what would happen. Would people still be asinine or would they shape up to save face? Do trolls create new accounts with separate billing just to create fake accounts to harass people? Would the forums turn into a ghost town? So many things could happen and with such a large base of users this would be a good study but It's not going to happen. Maybe the outrage over the potential is something to learn from though. People escape on the internet and apparently that's all they care about. "Screw people and feelings I'm a troll."
If you used a pseudonym then did you Fake the Funk?
The process here is identical to the process in business an extended relationship forces people to act polite in their own interests because they could destroy the relationship if they act like the assholes they are but a short term relationship (like a single anonymous post) fosters dickary because the relationship will be terminated right away anyways. There are plenty of wolfs (i.e. idiots) hiding among us keep in check by the need to function in society but allowing them to not have to deal with further consequences brings out their nasty streak if we force them to stay hide behind their facade then they will act polite even if they are raging morons.
From a purely anthropological point of view I really wanted to know what would happen. Would people still be asinine or would they shape up to save face? Do trolls create new accounts with separate billing just to create fake accounts to harass people? Would the forums turn into a ghost town? So many things could happen and with such a large base of users this would be a good study but It's not going to happen. Maybe the outrage over the potential is something to learn from though. People escape on the internet and apparently that's all they care about. "Screw people and feelings I'm a troll."
If you used a pseudonym then did you Fake the Funk?
Well, technically, you're not wrong, but I don't think you're exactly right, either. What the others have taken offense to, I think, isn't the fact that there is no choice, but that the choice is a Morton's fork. If you're honestly concerned about handing out your identity to people you don't know, under the mandatory Real ID system, your choices are:Matt_LRR said:
(a) Compromise your sense of security for the sake of being included in a community that you've come to enjoy.
(b) Retain your sense of security, but in doing so, compromise your ability to participate in said community that you enjoy.
Neither of these are particularly pleasant options for people inhabiting a virtual community whose sole purpose is to help its citizens escape from all the drama and general shittery of the real world. And it's not just the fact that the forum users were being presented with this choice. It's that it was being thrust upon them. But, as has been noted, the anti-trolling portion of this plan wouldn't have had an effect if the whole thing were optional...
I'm glad Blizzard actually took the time to pay heed to its userbase. I'm still pissed at Ubisoft for fucking up its "always online" DRM scheme so bad. Still, I agree with you and Funk in that I think it would have been an interesting social experiment. In fact, I think that, if that's all that this was about in the first place, I should make a note here: huge success. Okay, that was bad. I'm tired. Please forgive me.
It should probably be noted that I'm also with the people who think that Blizzard was trying to turn their forums into the new Facebook. It's not hard to believe, if you look at the rest of the internet, the gaming industry, and even Facebook itself. Microsoft and Sony want a slice of Nintendo's pie. Every other site and its mother is letting you link your Facebook to it. South Park even did a fucking episode about Facebook. But Facebook, too is just a knock-off of MySpace, which is a knock-off of Friendster. I think it's far from a conspiracy theory when the theory in question actually makes perfect business sense, and is being implemented--and already has been implemented many, many times over the course of human history.
Edit: Ah, I remembered something I wanted to add to the whole "Morton's fork" point. My problem with this whole thing, even though I don't play WoW, was the fact that I didn't feel the users should have been put in this position. Ever. If a significant portion of your userbase is being faced with a tough decision that they feel could potentially put them at risk of being stalked or worse, something is very, very wrong. I can understand why Blizzard would want to implement a system like this, but I just can't understand why they actually started to go through with it.
More edit: Note to self: good idea for band names:
Morton's Fork
Buridan's Ass
Superfluous Colons
Accountability is one thing. I agree they should be held accountable. I still don't see how asking us non asshole types to put our nuts on the chopping block so we can hold those assholes accountable eventually is the right way to go. You say yeah we are pulling off the trolls masks but I say we are pulling off our masks for them. And we will be left with no discussion because everyone will be afraid to disagree with anyone else incurr the wrath.
I refuse to believe that there wasn't one person at that board meeting that didn't say, "Yeah, but couldn't we potentially piss off our entire fanbase? Isn't a gigantic media shitstorm bad for our stock, if nothing else?" It's times like this that I remember that I am, in fact, an optimist.Tenmar said:
The thing is, there IS risk when posting with your real name, even if blizzard wants you to think otherwise. Let's examine the following claims I've heard:
A) There is no risk of real world repercussions when posting with your real name.
Then why would this stop the trolling at all?
B) There is no risk of real world repercussions when posting with your real name but it will cause a sense of accountability and will result in less troll.
This "sense of accountability" is the exact same thing as real world risk. No matter how you slice it, you're putting your neck out there if they went through with this (which I know they didn't so it's a moot point).
In your example John, you said what if Katie's friend the creeper kept harassing her on alts. Would he stop when people could see his real name? That's not what you should be worried about, you should be worried about Mr.Creeper finding out KATIE'S real name and gearing up for a real life confrontation. And don't you dare tell me it can't happen:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2010/05/27/2010-05-27_video_gamer_hunts_down_stabs_man_who_killed_his_online_counterstrike_character.html
A) There is no risk of real world repercussions when posting with your real name.
Then why would this stop the trolling at all?
B) There is no risk of real world repercussions when posting with your real name but it will cause a sense of accountability and will result in less troll.
This "sense of accountability" is the exact same thing as real world risk. No matter how you slice it, you're putting your neck out there if they went through with this (which I know they didn't so it's a moot point).
In your example John, you said what if Katie's friend the creeper kept harassing her on alts. Would he stop when people could see his real name? That's not what you should be worried about, you should be worried about Mr.Creeper finding out KATIE'S real name and gearing up for a real life confrontation. And don't you dare tell me it can't happen:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2010/05/27/2010-05-27_video_gamer_hunts_down_stabs_man_who_killed_his_online_counterstrike_character.html
squid5580 said:
I couldn't help but notice that you both have Kirby avatars, and that you both had similar arguments against abolishing WoW forum anonymity. Sirs, please step out of the vehicle. I'm going to need to see some Real ID and proof of post sincerity.AC10 said:
Like that asshole that sank Nixon by trolling anonymously in a parking lot?John Funk said:
Like Dick Nixon? Even if he could be held accountable only by anonymous tips? So anonymity has a purpose, yes?John Funk said:
John Funk said:
Sticks and stones. You know the rest.John Funk said:
Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, poor minds discuss people.
Now that the quoteage is out of the way... the gainax director, on his blog, described 2ch as "putting my face next to an anus and breathing deeply." Sounds like he was held accountable for what he said, to me.
About "tits or gtfo." Its an anonymous image board. Which means, ideally, no one gives a shit what gender you are unless you want to make a big deal about it. Which means... if you want people to care get your tits out or get the fuck out. Subtextually, its about the inherent sexism of willingly identifying yourself as certain gender when it isn't required. Only two things can happen as a result of revealing your gender. Either no one cares or you get a ton of negative attention of various flavors. Ranging from "show me your tits" to white knighting, "that guys such a dick, show me your tits."
As far as racism? Who cares? Its people sucking and spewing shit that isn't true to feel better about themselves. If they're saying it to get a rise out of people, they're morons. If they believe it, they're morons. You don't need to see their real name to know that.
So, basically, who the fuck cares who says something? The idea of "accountability" is just acting like trolling, racism, sexism, stalkers, etc wouldn't exist if everyone knew your real name.
Also, I liked that bit at the end about "they're still anonymous image boards." As if the container defines the contents. Book by the cover. I know the greater internet fuckwad theory is taken as purest gospel around here, but jesus christ dude. At least pretend you know what you're talking about.
You're not anonymous. Congratulations. If I was getting paid, I'd be using my real name too... maybe thats what you actually mean by "accountability."
I really hate that all that these billion dollar business plans boil down to is gambling. A cost-benefit analysis shouldn't be all that the fate of one of the few shining stars of an industry hinges upon. Hell, it shouldn't be all that the fate of the entire gulf coast (I'm minimizing) hinges upon, either.Tenmar said:
Cynical skeptic said:
I posted a question in another thread that has yet to be answered, and I'll posit it to you, John.John Funk said:
Suppose I say something absoultely nasty to you in a forum where real names are displayed. Nothing racist/sexist or legally actionable, but heavily insulting nonetheless. You have my real name. What do you do with it?
If Jesse Finkelstein says something nasty to me on an Internet site, I'm not going to be terribly inclined to care. Big friggin' deal. It's not like I'm going to call his parents, his principal, etc. and tell them just what a snot-faced jerk little Jesse is. I really don't have the time or interest. But if Jesse is supremely offended by something I say, to him or someone else- even if there was nothing intended- well, he's got my name and a good lead on causing me grief. And unless he deliberately posts something threatening to me in return, or slips up some other way, how am I supposed to know it's him?
You say "assholes should get what they deserve". Everyone's an asshole in someone else's eyes at some point.
My primary issue with this whole "real name" thing is that, yes, it will cut down on Internet trolling, for all the wrong reasons. No troll worthy of the term is going to bother exposing his real name on a forum- not when there's so many regular people out there doing it that he can harrass in real life, untracably. To me, not worth it, never will be.
"The Rogue Wolf" is not The Rogue Wolf's real name, but it's the best you lot are going to get.
Yes, and hmm, why do you suppose he said that, yes? Maybe because 2ch has its fair share of assholes and dickweeds, too? So it isn't a bastion of polite discourse? Yes, he was held accountable for what he said. Good, he should have been.Cynical skeptic said:
See, I (used to) regularly post on 4chan's /m/, because I like mecha, found it a relatively sane section of the community, and had a few interesting discussions every now and then. I also saw people being idiots, trolls derailing topics, etc. Anonymous message boards don't automatically equal = bad attitudes, crappy posting, and the like, but it's more likely to happen there than anyplace else on the internet.
Discourse and attitudes tend to become more civil as people feel more accountable for their actions and words. This is a trend, not an absolute - there will be outliers either way. But whereas you dismiss it all as "sticks and stones," I think you'll find that in some cases it has a genuine effect - and why should we encourage it?
I do nothing with it. But now your real name is forever attached to that message for all of your friends and family to ever see if they google your name. Hope you're proud of it.The Rogue Wolf said:
And even if they never DO Google your name, before you post it, you'll know that it'll be out there as coming from you, in public. People who read it will think (Jeez, that (Name) is such a dick). The odds are, you won't post it in the first place thinking about that. Discourse improves as people start to feel accountable for their actions. This isn't something I'm just making up.
Well, you could always sink to Jesse's level of maturity and tell him he's got a girl's name. Otherwise, I really have no idea what you'd do with that information.The Rogue Wolf said:
Which brings up the issue of accounts being hacked, and someone putting words in my virtual mouth that end up indelibly recorded on the Internet. And still nobody's addressing the potential of people being harrassed, attacked, etc. by those "outside the system", whose names aren't anywhere near the forums in question. How is "more civil online discourse" worth that? I'd be too afraid to post anything more specific than "yes" or "no" in a forum like that for the worry that some nutcase somewhere would take offense and make my life difficult. And I like to think that, in the two and a half years I've been on the Escapist, I've proven that I have no troll-like tendencies.John Funk said:
A silence born from fear of unreasonable retaliation is not civil discourse.
[small]I do hope you know, John, that I'm not attacking you over this in some way. I just simply cannot at all understand your mindset about a subject important to me, so I'm going to keep questioning it until either one of us changes his mind or we hit an "agree to disagree" impasse.[/small]
Even aside from those (very valid) points, I know that I, personally, feel a certain level of accountability when it comes to my posts, even when there's nothing about my Escapist persona that physically identifies me as who I really am. I read and reread my own posts obsessively, trying to make sure that everything makes sense and is grammatically correct to the best of my ability. I don't necessarily do this because I think anyone will think less of me, but because I know that I will think less of me.The Rogue Wolf said:
I guess my point is that the people who actually care about whether or not their names are linked to general stupidity on the internet already have internet handles to identify them. Forcing people to use their "real names" wouldn't solve a thing. For instance, I would be identified as "Richard Bartholomew Uht" on the WoW forums. A subsequent Google search for "Rich Uht" would turn up hits, but none of them would be me. For one thing, that's not my name. Even if it were, there is absolutely no way to prove that the Dick B. Uht posting on the forums was actually me.
Now, if they made it harder to make alternate accounts, or post on the forums in the first place (Maybe make it so only people over a certain level in-game can post? Force people to use one name in-game and the same name on the forums? I don't know how the WoW forums work, honestly.) that might lower the trolling rate a bit. Just maybe. I really don't see any way that using real names would do a better job than a combination of that and better moderation.