20-hour games are "short"?

shrekfan246

Not actually a Japanese pop star
May 26, 2011
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So over the past few years, I've seen a lot of people lamenting games for becoming shorter and shorter, ushering forth a time of epidemic where publishers are wanting us to play a game and then leave it to go latch on to their next release in rapid succession. And I have to ask, are you sure games are getting shorter, or do you just have a lot more free time on your hands?

There have always been short games. The original Sonic the Hedgehog can be speedrun in less than an hour. There have also been long games, such as Final Fantasy. And this trend has continued to this day, where the only difference, strictly speaking, is two things: People who grew up playing games like Banjo-Kazooie (itself only something like a five-hour game depending on how well you know where everything is) or Final Fantasy VII are now out in the "real" world, but with unemployment at an all-time high, a lot of them have quite a fair amount of free time (myself included). Also, there are simply a lot more games being released these days than there were back in the 80's or 90's. Over one-hundred and fifty games were launched this year alone (partly due to the launch of the Wii-U).

Now consider this: When a person is a full-time college student or has a full-time job, the chances of them having more than, say, two or three hours a night of "free" time is extremely small. Suddenly, that 20-hour game that you could've completed in two days when you weren't working has you spending three weeks to get to the end. Doesn't seem so short now, does it?

Now, I like pouring into a "long" game just as much as anybody else (my total play-time on my first completion of Persona 4 Golden was 74 hours), but there are a lot of games that simply feel like they're outstaying their welcome if they try padding out past 20 hours, to be frank. Take Assassin's Creed as an example. It doesn't have what I would call a short story, but most of the time you spend playing is padded out simply by travel time or doing pointless side-missions that have little-to-no practical reward other than adding to your "100%-o-Meter". Now, if the traveling is fun (as it usually is in Assassin's Creed), then that's all well and good, but it's not really contributing to the depth of the experience, it's just making the game longer. How much of that time spent running around are you actually doing something other than... well... running around?

I won't say there aren't games with purposely short campaigns, etc., that aren't designed for people to pick up the newest iteration every year or every other year, because anyone who has been playing attention to gaming in the last six years knows that there are certain franchise designed exactly for that, but at the same time, they're not really focused on or marketed toward the single-player market. By all stretches of the imagination, to a person who played over 200 hours in Call of Duty: Modern Warfare multi-player, it's just as "long" of a game as Baldur's Gate, but for different reasons. The six-hour campaign is really inconsequential at that point, because most of the people criticizing how short it is aren't going to play it anyway, and the assumed majority of people who buy it are going to play both, or the multi-player.

But is Mass Effect "short" because you can complete it in fifteen hours? (Probably less if you're really good, I'm just going by my last play-through, which was also my third and shortest while simultaneously finding the most stuff on the side.) It sure doesn't feel like a short game while I'm playing, partly because of the vast expanse of the in-game galaxy, partly because of the balance of dialogue to combat and the length of individual missions, partly because those damn Mako missions are annoying as hell.

A related issue is the fact that a lot of these purported short games also tend to be highly scripted and/or linear. That's a different can of worms that I'd prefer not to open, but it's impossible to avoid mentioning that maybe part of the issue behind "games are getting shorter" is that game worlds aren't as interesting to explore anymore, because there's just less to explore. Developers don't put in silly Easter Eggs very much anymore, there aren't all kinds of secrets and hidden passageways to find, and even in open-world games there's usually very little reason to actually explore, because there just aren't those small, fun things to find anymore.

So, Escapambillidandoes, what's your take on this?

[HEADING=1]EDIT:[/HEADING]

All right, I think I should clarify that the issue I'm really taking in this thread is that a lot of the time when I see people talking about how short a game is, they're saying it like it's a negative just because it's a short game. As if that diminishes the quality of the overall product by itself. As if being a longer game would somehow automatically make it a better game, regardless of the quality of the longer content.
 

Vegosiux

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May 18, 2011
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Yes, if you can complete it in 15 hours without missing anything, yes, it's short. Which is not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, I mean, there are plenty short yet awesome indie games out there for example.

shrekfan246 said:
Now consider this: When a person is a full-time college student or has a full-time job, the chances of them having more than, say, two or three hours a night of "free" time is extremely small. Suddenly, that 20-hour game that you could've completed in two days when you weren't working has you spending three weeks to get to the end. Doesn't seem so short now, does it?
Been there. Done that. Sometimes my shifts these days can drag on up to 12 hours, especially on weekends. It's still a short game. It doesn't matter if it takes you a year ot three days to complete it. So yes, it seems just as short.

And it took me 50 hours for the first Mass Effect, and 70 on the second. You know, completion OCD and all that.
 

PedroSteckecilo

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Feb 7, 2008
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I would say 15 to 20 Hours is the ideal game length myself... I mean occasionally I WANT some more of the game, but I rarely feel truly dissatisfied at the length of a game around this length.
 

shrekfan246

Not actually a Japanese pop star
May 26, 2011
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Vegosiux said:
Yes, if you can complete it in 15 hours without missing anything, yes, it's short. Which is not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, I mean, there are plenty short yet awesome indie games out there for example.
First, I'd just like to say - duly noted that you're saying a game being short isn't necessarily bad by itself.

shrekfan246 said:
Now consider this: When a person is a full-time college student or has a full-time job, the chances of them having more than, say, two or three hours a night of "free" time is extremely small. Suddenly, that 20-hour game that you could've completed in two days when you weren't working has you spending three weeks to get to the end. Doesn't seem so short now, does it?
Been there. Done that. Sometimes my shifts these days can drag on up to 12 hours, especially on weekends. It's still a short game. It doesn't matter if it takes you a year ot three days to complete it. So yes, it seems just as short.

And it took me 50 hours for the first Mass Effect, and 70 on the second. You know, completion OCD and all that.
As for this, obviously different people have different priorities when they're playing games, but I like to keep up with most of the new games that come out and there are a lot that interest me. I can't help but feel that if every single game were 70+ hours long, I'd eventually not have enough time to actually play the games that I want to play. I'd either end up leaving games half-finished or I would just forget about ones that were recently released, because I'd be spending my gaming time with one game for half a year.

Maybe that's satisfying for some people, I don't know. I like to experience as much of what the gaming industry has to offer as I can, and not having short games is a bit detrimental to that, because there are only so many hours in the day. Obviously as a normal human being, I have neither the time nor money to play every game that comes out which interests me, but I don't particularly want to be looking back five years from now and thinking "Oh yeah, that game looked interesting back when it was released, I forgot it even existed." because I was too busy trying to finish a game that has been padded out for length.
 

BloatedGuppy

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A lot of this is highly genre dependent, but...

RPG/FPS or Hybrid thereof

<10 Hours - Unacceptably short.
10-20 Hours - Short
20-30 Hours - Average
30-40 Hours - Above Average
40+ Hours - Long

For strategy games I'd peg "long" as 100+ hours. For MMOs 200+ hours.
 

Zhukov

The Laughing Arsehole
Dec 29, 2009
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I consider 10 hours to be a perfectly acceptable length. Most games struggle to hold my attention for much longer than that anyway. The gameplay inevitably gets too repetitive. Once you've shot 50 Russians you've kinda shot them all.

Anything above 40 hours is really pushing it. The games that can keep me engaged for that long a few and far between, and usually story-based.
 

DoPo

"You're not cleared for that."
Jan 30, 2012
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BloatedGuppy said:
A lot of this is highly genre dependent, but...

RPG/FPS or Hybrid thereof

<10 Hours - Unacceptably short.
10-20 Hours - Short
20-30 Hours - Average
30-40 Hours - Above Average
40+ Hours - Long

For strategy games I'd peg "long" as 100+ hours. For MMOs 200+ hours.
I fully agree with this chart. It extends to most games, I'd say.

20 hours can be allright, depending on what game it is. I'm happy with Dishonoured so far, I'm just at the 20 hour mark there (19.4 Steam tells me. Also I'll take the opportunity to say thanks again BloatedGuppy for that coupon :D ) and it's still not finished (but close). I'd rather play more, but then again, I'm fine with the playtime so far.
 

shrekfan246

Not actually a Japanese pop star
May 26, 2011
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Zhukov said:
I consider 10 hours to be a perfectly acceptable length. Most games struggle to hold my attention for much longer than that anyway. The gameplay inevitably gets too repetitive. Once you've shot 50 Russians you've kinda shot them all.

Anything above 40 hours is really pushing it. The games that can keep me engaged for that long a few and far between, and usually story-based.
This is a sentiment that I fully agree with, and which causes a lot of confusion for my best friend because he doesn't get quite so bored with repetitive gameplay as I do. It's also one of the reasons I started this thread, I suppose.

Especially with games that have a weak story, if it just drags on I'll invariably get bored and feel like I could be having more fun playing something else. I don't understand how people could keep playing Diablo II for ten years, because once you've seen all of the monsters and locations you're basically just doing the same exact thing over and over, ad nauseum. I play WoW and I still think that's crazy.
 

Hero in a half shell

It's not easy being green
Dec 30, 2009
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I think the problem is getting games that challenge our skill level

Medal of Honor Frontline took me about a year to complete, because I kept getting stuck in hard areas and having to train my skills for months at a time to pass them, the same with Halo, etc.
When I got Medal of Honor Rising Sun, despite it being slightly shorter, I completed it in 2-3 days, because I was able to breeze through all the combat, the difficult places held me back by about half an hour, when they would have taken a month, or longer when I was younger.

But games (especially FPS's) have gotten provably shorter. I would even find it a challenge today to complete Frontline, or Allied Assault in under 6 hours with my thorough knowledge of the levels, but I easily managed both Modern Warfare 1 + 2 in less than 6 each, on my very first playthrough!

I think MOH:F and AA Come in around the 12-15 hours playthrough mark, which is enough to keep the gameplay engaging and fresh and give a fleshed out story without ending too early. Rising Sun would be less around 8-10, which was a little on the short side, and the MW series are around 6 each, which in my opinion is too short to fully explore different situations and gameplay mechanics in the game.
 

Johnny Novgorod

Bebop Man
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Feb 9, 2012
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Short and long are terms relative to how I space my gaming sessions. If I like a "short" game, I'll replay it for as long as I want; if I don't like a "long" game, I won't even bother finishing it. It is what it is.
 

fozzy360

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Oct 20, 2009
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shrekfan246 said:
Take Assassin's Creed as an example. It doesn't have what I would call a short story, but most of the time you spend playing is padded out simply by travel time or doing pointless side-missions that have little-to-no practical reward other than adding to your "100%-o-Meter". Now, if the traveling is fun (as it usually is in Assassin's Creed), then that's all well and good, but it's not really contributing to the depth of the experience, it's just making the game longer. How much of that time spent running around are you actually doing something other than... well... running around?
I'm a little confused here. First, many of those side-missions do have practical rewards to them that do contribute to the game, either through cash or other rewards that can be used to further your progression. Secondly, you say that the traveling is fun in AC but it doesn't add anything meaningful to the game. Isn't the game built on that? Isn't one of the main selling points of the franchise that you can explore these large worlds to your heart's content? If that's the case, then isn't this "running around" fundamental to the game experience? Of course it going to make the game longer because you need to take the time to get to your destination, but isn't that part of what makes AC appealing? I know this isn't the argument at hand, but I'm just a bit confused about this point here.

As far as the OT goes, being a short game isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's what you do with a short game that matters. For example, Dishonored can be beaten in six hours if you're good, ten if you start taking your time. Short game, yes, but there's a nice replayability factor in that it allows players to replay missions to find bone charms or runes or just to see how well they do with a different approach. Had it not included such a feature, I would have derided it for it not having enough to do because of how good it is. For $60, I expect a game to last me a while. If it's a short game, give me replayable missions or a new game plus mode and not just simply the ability to restart my game from scratch (the latter is not the same as the former). If it's a longer game, give me sidequests, challenges, and things to do (assuming pacing is done right). That doesn't mean that just because you theoretically have sixty hours worth of content means you get a pass even if your game isn't that good (Two Worlds). What matters to me is how much bang you get for your buck.

EDIT: Lots of typos. Fixed that. Runnin' on four hours of sleep here.
 

Smertnik

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shrekfan246 said:
Now consider this: When a person is a full-time college student or has a full-time job, the chances of them having more than, say, two or three hours a night of "free" time is extremely small. Suddenly, that 20-hour game that you could've completed in two days when you weren't working has you spending three weeks to get to the end. Doesn't seem so short now, does it?
Yeah, nowadays I'm so busy with university work that anything above 10h is too long for me. I gained a huge appreciation for games which get straight to the point without resorting to needless filler.

That being said, I was never too keen on measuring a game's worth by its length. I'd rather have a great compact experience than a mediocre one which is stretched out over several dozens of hours.
 

shrekfan246

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May 26, 2011
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fozzy360 said:
shrekfan246 said:
Take Assassin's Creed as an example. It doesn't have what I would call a short story, but most of the time you spend playing is padded out simply by travel time or doing pointless side-missions that have little-to-no practical reward other than adding to your "100%-o-Meter". Now, if the traveling is fun (as it usually is in Assassin's Creed), then that's all well and good, but it's not really contributing to the depth of the experience, it's just making the game longer. How much of that time spent running around are you actually doing something other than... well... running around?
I'm a little confused here. First, many of those side-missions do have practical rewards to them that do contribute to the game, either through cash or other rewards that can be used to further your progression. Secondly, you say that the traveling is fun in AC but it doesn't add anything meaningful to the game. Isn't the game built on that? Isn't one of the main selling points of the franchise that you can explore these large worlds to your heart's content? If that's the case, then isn't this "running around" fundamental to the game experience? Of course it going to make the game longer because you need to take the time to get to your destination, but isn't that part of what makes AC appealing? I know this isn't the argument at hand, but I'm just a bit confused about this point here.
Money isn't hard to get in Assassin's Creed. And it becomes fairly meaningless rather quickly, as well. You use it to upgrade things that get you more money... so you can upgrade things and get more money... and even the "money sinks" like equipment were never that expensive. And the pigeon contracts, courier missions, races, and all of those things are completely inconsequential to the rest of the game. They're just there. The only side-missions that really felt tied in to the actual game were the Assassin Tombs and other such dungeon diving things.

As for what I mean about the traveling, it's that while running around in Assassin's Creed is fun, there's very little in the large worlds they've created to actually explore. There aren't secrets to find, because anything worthwhile will be marked on the map anyway. Once you've seen one part of Florence in ACII, you've pretty much seen every part of Florence in ACII. There's no reason to explore beyond the fact that the free-running can be fun. But it's not enough to carry the game by itself.

As far as the OT goes, being a short isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's what you do with a shirt game that matters. For example, Dishonored can be beaten in six hours if you're good, ten if you start taking your time. Short game, yes, but there's a nice replayability factor in that it allows players to replay missions to find bone charms or runes or just to see how well they done with a different approach. Had it not included such a feature, I would have derided it for it not having enough to do because of how good it is. For $60, I expect a game to last me a while. If it's a short game, give me replayable missions or a new game plus mode and not just simply the ability to restart my game from scratch (the latter is the same as the former). If it's a longer game, give me sidequests, challenges, and things to do (assuming pacing is done right). That doesn't mean that just because you theoretically have sixty hours worth of content means you get a pass even if your game isn't that good (Two Worlds). What matters to me is how much bang you get for your buck.
I can agree with that. If a game is going to indeed be short but still cost a full $60 USD, it should have a high amount of replayability (varying only depending on the genre it is, I think). I'm of two minds about things on the side, though. I feel if they fit the tone of the game as a whole, then it's perfectly fine, but if they feel like they were just thrown in because the developers felt something else just had to be there, and consequently it feels disconnected from the game I've been playing up to that point, it would probably be better off without it. Or it could have at least been better implemented. Like the naval combat missions in Assassin's Creed III. I absolutely love the mechanics, and I think it's really fun to play those missions. But there's practically zero context given to any of the actions you're taking, and subsequently it feels like you're playing a completely different game for ten minutes.
 

Smolderin

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Being an avid RPG guy myself, 20 hours is pretty short for an RPG game. But if its anything else, 20 hours is a respectable length for stuff like Shooters, Adventure Games, RTS's, etc.
 

Fractral

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Feb 28, 2012
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Frankly. I don't really care how long a game is as long as it entertains me enough. I suppose you could say that its not the length, but the length by the average enjoyment I'm having whilst playing it. Which puts Persona games really high up.
A 20 hour game, to answer the question in the title, is neither short nor long inherently; it depends upon what genre it is. A 20 hour shooter is very long- the only straight up fps that has taken me 20 hours is Half Life 2- whilst I would consider a 20 hour JRPG to be a little on the sparse side.
 

scorptatious

The Resident Team ICO Fanboy
May 14, 2009
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Personally, length doesn't matter too much to me. Journey is like what? An hour and a half at least? And I still think it's a fantastic game.

Also, there ate still plenty of lengthy games out there. I clocked about 75 hours into Xenoblade Chronicles on my first playthrough, and I didn't even touch half of the game's side content. And this was a game that came out this year in the states.
 

Guffe

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Depends, I mean my first session of Skyward Sword was like 57 hours I think but when a friend asked me before I checked it up I said I completed ii in 20... So there I just played so much I lost track of Time.

Max Payne games are bloody brilliant even thou they are short...

For me a short game is 10-ish hours while a medium game is 20-ish and a long game is maybe 35+ hours...
But length of the game doesn't mind me as long as I enjoy the experience.
 

fozzy360

I endorse Jurassic Park
Oct 20, 2009
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shrekfan246 said:
Money isn't hard to get in Assassin's Creed. And it becomes fairly meaningless rather quickly, as well. You use it to upgrade things that get you more money... so you can upgrade things and get more money... and even the "money sinks" like equipment were never that expensive. And the pigeon contracts, courier missions, races, and all of those things are completely inconsequential to the rest of the game. They're just there. The only side-missions that really felt tied in to the actual game were the Assassin Tombs and other such dungeon diving things.

As for what I mean about the traveling, it's that while running around in Assassin's Creed is fun, there's very little in the large worlds they've created to actually explore. There aren't secrets to find, because anything worthwhile will be marked on the map anyway. Once you've seen one part of Florence in ACII, you've pretty much seen every part of Florence in ACII. There's no reason to explore beyond the fact that the free-running can be fun. But it's not enough to carry the game by itself.
OK, I can see what you're getting at. I disagree with you partially, but I think that discussion is going to come down to a matter of taste, which means we'll both be right and wrong in each other's eyes.

shrekfan246 said:
I can agree with that. If a game is going to indeed be short but still cost a full $60 USD, it should have a high amount of replayability (varying only depending on the genre it is, I think). I'm of two minds about things on the side, though. I feel if they fit the tone of the game as a whole, then it's perfectly fine, but if they feel like they were just thrown in because the developers felt something else just had to be there, and consequently it feels disconnected from the game I've been playing up to that point, it would probably be better off without it. Or it could have at least been better implemented. Like the naval combat missions in Assassin's Creed III. I absolutely love the mechanics, and I think it's really fun to play those missions. But there's practically zero context given to any of the actions you're taking, and subsequently it feels like you're playing a completely different game for ten minutes.
I'd like to think that Saint's Row 2 is the perfect example of how to get this right. Everything contributes to the tone of the game, gives tangible rewards that extend beyond currency, a wealth of areas to explore and things, and the ability to replay not just side quests but also the entire campaign. To me, that is the bar that's been in terms of what I expect for my money. It's not that every game has to be SR2, but every game should enough content to make the cost of $60 worthwhile. There's plenty of games to play, but if I'm going to play yours, you better have enough content that fits within the context of the game.

I know I use "you" a lot, but don't mind it. It's a bit easier for me.
 

Rawne1980

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Anything under 10 hours is a joke.
Anything under 20 hours is worth renting.
Anything above 20 hours is worth a look at buying depending what game it is.

If it can be completed in a few days then I see no point in buying the game, may as well rent it and save money.

I was one of those unfortunate bastards that purchased Dungeon Siege 3 on release, paying full price. The game was around 7-8 hours long to complete 100%.

It was pathetic.