Skyrim Streamlining Removes Confusion, Says Bethesda

[Logan Westbrook]

Skyrim Streamlining Removes Confusion, Says Bethesda

Bethesda is hoping that players will be able to make their ideal character first time in Skyrim.

Skyrim [http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004HYK956/ref=s9_simh_gw_p63_d2_i2?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=051D4PXBZW19JD56H74A&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846 ] design director Todd Howard said that the streamlining of some of the game's systems compared to previous Elder Scrolls games is not about increasing accessibility for new players, but removing confusion for everyone.

For Skyrim, Bethesda has reduced the number of statistics and eliminated certain skills, like Hand to Hand. It wasn't about dumbing things down though, as Howard said that the Elder Scrolls game sold well enough without stripping the complexity out of them.

The problem, he said, was that previous Bethesda games had asked players to make choices on skills and classes before they had proper understanding of what they did, which was less than ideal. "In our games or others' games, they give you a character menu and say, 'Who do you want to be, what powers do you want?' [Players think,] 'I don't know, I haven't played yet!'"

What Bethesda was trying to avoid, he said, was putting players in a situation where they felt they'd made bad choices. "What happens in Oblivion is you start the game, play for three hours, and then think 'I want to start over, I chose wrong.' So we'd like to sort of alleviate some of that. I also think the controls work better [too] ... it's more elegant."

Bethesda's never going to make everyone happy when it changes something. Some players will like a lot of complexity in their RPGs, while others can't stand it. Whichever camp you might fall into though, it's hard to argue that removing confusion is a bad thing. You can build amazing systems, but if no one can figure out how to use them, then the effort is wasted.

The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim comes out for PC, PS3, and Xbox 360 on November 11th.

Source: Gamasutra [http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/35678/Interview_Todd_Howard_On_The_Scope_Vision_Of_Skyrim.php]


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[HaraDaya]

I always like having more choices. But they're absolutely right about Oblivion forcing you to choose your skills before you have any idea what real impact they'll have. I think I created 3 characters before I had one with a mix I was happy with.

 

[Dr_Horrible]

EDIT: Fuck it, I'm done with this. No more post here; I'm sick of it.

 

[hawkeye52]

I quite like having complex systems in my RPG's. Hence why i enjoy games like the NWN series (which tbh isn't that complicated but still a hell of a lot more so then oblivion was)

One of the more complicated games i play is EU3

 

[ratman995]

They've just got to be careful with the pc version and i can say screw you to the console ports, cause i ain't going to be buying them.

 

[tlozoot]

...except that the target audience of this game, by which I mean RPG fans, already know and understand the systems involved in an RPG. That's the beauty of creating a game in this style is that you can have the target audience be people who undestand and are experienced with the material already; you do not introduce new gamers to an RPG to start with.

Surely the nuances of the mechanics change from game to game. I made a character on Oblivion and when I posted my choices on a forum I was chided for having picked some 'useless' skills and having made some stupid choices.

 

[Duffeknol]

I remember punching out the entire arena with my bare hands, I hope they'll just make strength the replacement for hand to hand, would make sense.

 

[imnot]

Good.
Besides im sick of people complaining that streamlining is ruining games.
It makes me shake my fist I tell you!

 

[Avaholic03]

...except that the target audience of this game, by which I mean RPG fans, already know and understand the systems involved in an RPG. That's the beauty of creating a game in this style is that you can have the target audience be people who undestand and are experienced with the material already; you do not introduce new gamers to an RPG to start with.

Yeah, but that's not really a good long-term business plan. Only appeal to people who are already hooked on your genre? Publishers probably wouldn't like it if the developer said that during a meeting.

There's nothing wrong with making your game mechanics more intuitive. Even "hardcore" RPG fans have to re-roll characters a few times in the less intuitive games, which I'm sure is annoying (I wouldn't know, because I don't usually play RPGs).

 

[CommanderKirov]

I'll wait and see how it turns out before I start raging.

 

[ImprovizoR]

I am actually looking forward to the new system. I don't think it's dumbed down. I accept their logic.

 

[Nazgual]

See look, Bethesda is just trying to make the game better. This reminds of how people whined about the loot system being removed from Mass Effect 2, even though it was just annoying and didn't add anything to the first game at all.

 

[new_age_reject]

previous Bethesda games had asked players to make choices on skills and classes before they had proper understanding of what they did

...except that the target audience of this game, by which I mean RPG fans, already know and understand the systems involved in an RPG. That's the beauty of creating a game in this style is that you can have the target audience be people who undestand and are experienced with the material already; you do not introduce new gamers to an RPG to start with.

Even some seasoned fantasy RPGers don't know how much a certain skill will be utilised throughout a game.

 

[Dr_Horrible]

...except that the target audience of this game, by which I mean RPG fans, already know and understand the systems involved in an RPG. That's the beauty of creating a game in this style is that you can have the target audience be people who undestand and are experienced with the material already; you do not introduce new gamers to an RPG to start with.

Surely the nuances of the mechanics change from game to game. I made a character on Oblivion and when I posted my choices on a forum I was chided for having picked some 'useless' skills and having made some stupid choices.

Perhaps It's just me then, but I find that in a more basic RPG like the Elder Scrolls series, basic mechanics and skillsets tend to be quite similar in purpose and use. I've been playing RPGs since I was a kid, and I'm experienced with much more complex systems such as AD&D 2.0, so it may just be me. Don't mean to cause any offense for anyone.

Edit:

See look, Bethesda is just trying to make the game better. This reminds of how people whined about the loot system being removed from Mass Effect 2, even though it was just annoying and didn't add anything to the first game at all.

Except that there's a difference between removing bad features because they're bad, and removing good features because they're too lazy to make people understand what they are.

 

[Kapol]

I can understand where they're coming from, but trying to remove confusion by removing entire features seems the wrong way of going about it. Trying to figure out a way of showing the effects skills will have with a tutorial of some sort seems to be a better idea. It almost seems to me like they're saying 'we don't want to have to teach this to the player, so we just cut it out entirely.' It almost seems like they're doing it more to save themselves the work over doing it to help the player. The only ones I can see this helping are those who are either entirely new to RPGs (which an Elder Scrolls game doesn't seem like a good place to start anyways) or those who don't like having to decide that much.

It really just seems like they're removing a lot of the customization of the game in general in my opinion. This, coupled with the 'all armor is one piece' news that I've seen posted elsewhere on the forum, makes it seem like they're removing a lot of the customablity from the game. To me, these skills, your choices of armor, and things like that are hundreds of times better for making it feel like a true 'RPG' and much more like it's my character then tweaking facial muscles of a character who's face I won't see much of. Especially if the game follows the mostly first-person view of Oblivion. And even in third-person, you almost never see enough of their face to really care I think.

 

[XT inc]

I dunno I think I would prefer my games to be using very smooth squiggly lines to make their games. If I am investing 60+ hours into a game, I don't want it to be simple, I want to tweak things and test them, and learn or modify.

People say I'm crazy for liking mass effect 1's weapon system. I say nothing some sort of auto-gel loot of less than this quality, would have fixed.

Besides that game as a streamlined leveling up system, which was boring as hell.

just wasn't very deep or rewarding. If its simple it takes a while to unlock things at any where near a fun rate.

 

[BrailleOperatic]

Bethesda's never going to make everyone happy when it changes something. Some players will like a lot of complexity in their RPGs, while others can't stand it. Whichever camp you might fall into though, it's hard to argue that removing confusion is a bad thing. You can build amazing systems, but if no one can figure out how to use them, then the effort is wasted.

I had to laugh a little at this one. Hardcore fans always, always, always find something to complain about. I'm gonna call it Sequel Scrutiny Syndrome. Whenever any developer makes a follow-up to any game they've made before, the fans will latch on to anything they can get their hands on and whine about it because it's dumbing it down, or its over-complicated, or it's not the direction they wanted it to go. Mass Effect 2 tried streamlining their skills trees. It was quicker, it was more intuitive, and it was less fiddly, and it was railed against for being to Action RPG-esque. Somewhere there's at least one thread complaining about Skyrim's chest and leg armor being combined. Fans will always complain, no matter how good an idea it seems.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Oh god not the A word again, will it join the new wave of RPG's where the R stands for retard?

How about you give us choice, some of us have learned to use the potty so let us start without diapers.

 

[Amphoteric]

Well the part I hated most about Mass Effect 2 was the extreme cutting down of abilities and powers.

I really hope it is nothing like that.