239: Curiosity Killed the NPC

ZippyDSMlee

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I tried that scene with Burke a few different ways a shame it defaults mostly to a "bad" end, I did manage to shoot the gun from his hand and save the sheriff but the sequence was....well....not very well handled like most of FO3...... all the sequences need at least 4 outcomes great, good, bad and worse.
 

jebbo

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Just to throw a total curveball into the arena, if you play as a woman and get the Black Widow perk you can seduce Burke into leaving with your feminine charms. Not sure where the morality lies there, fickely playing with the bad guy's emotions for the power of good?
 

ZippyDSMlee

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matthew_lane said:
I prefer the Dragon Age morality system. There is no good or evil, its all shades of grey. Sure stopping the big bad is good, but how much are you going to give upto do it. When does the ends justify the means? Do i dare create the next big evil just so i can survive killing the current big evil? etc etc.

-M
You mean its all 2 options in the end...with alot of vague writing inbetween.............................*hides*
 

Scrythe

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Jun 23, 2009
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Funny. On my first playthrough of Fallout 3, I realized there was a gigantic window of opportunity to shoot Burke before he even drew out his pistol without any repercussions at all from the Sherrif.
 

Dark Cleo

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I agree I much prefere Dragon Age as an rpg compared to fallout, it has more of a human feel about it. Not everything in life comes down to good or evil, its just not that clear cut. Sometimes it is about the greater good, the devil you know and the lesser evil.
 

Cosplay Horatio

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I prefer games mostly where there is no morality system but if there is then I like to strive to be the good hero in a game no matter what. I'm playing Fable 2 now and I've achieved full purity and nobility. There were some moments when I decided to do some awful things but I decided to not be evil to get gifts from people.
 

DeathQuaker

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The problem with shaping our characters in RPGs the way we want, is that sometimes it is not a matter of "choosing the right outcome" but "misinterpreting the poorly written dialogue" or "not being given all the sensible options you should have been given."

The anecdote Hindmarch shares about the Burke/Simms scenario, and the Tenpenny Tower issue brought up by the other posters here, both in Fallout 3 describe not a feature, but poor game design.

In Megaton, you know Burke is up to no good, but if you kill him yourself before he goes hostile against Simms, you lose karma. To some degree that's understandable--killing someone in cold blood isn't exactly a good thing to do, even if the person is bad news. You can't warn anyone else about Burke except Simms, and you can't offer Simms that you'll take care of it yourself. You can disable the bomb, but then Burke just leaves, and he never gets punished (why can't you stop him and turn him in then?). How you resolve that situation is extremely limited, and I find the problem there aren't enough reasonable choices to begin with, not that you become "forced" to live with Simms' death if you failed to enter VATS quick enough upon Burke's drawing his gun--or just let him get away.

Tenpenny Tower is even worse. The dialogue you have with the ghouls is more than adequate to display to the careful player that they're obviously up to no good, and that your trying to let them in "peacefully" will lead to disaster. But you can't convince them to leave, and if you fight with them--even if you provoke the ghouls to attack you through dialogue--you lose karma, even though there is blatant indication these guys are bad news, not to mention at that point you're defending yourself. You can't talk them out of it, you can't warn Tenpenny Tower to be on their guard even if the ghouls are let in, even though you can get the information that the ghouls are up to no good. You're railroaded into two choices that will give you bad karma (in game or in your own mind) for absolutely no reason whatsoever other than horrible writing. The "best" choice you can make is to never solve the quest, but then it just sits in your quest log like a freaking albatross around your neck.

The difference in tabletop RP is that you can talk to your human GM to get clarification on an issue. You can clear up misunderstandings, and most of all, you can explore all options with a storyteller who is capable of reacting appropriately to any solution you can think of. I am absolutely certain that if I ran Tenpenny Tower in a tabletop game, my players would come up with any number of solutions to the problem without getting any innocents killed.

I therefore have no problem with "save and reload" if the consequences of my actions don't make sense or I am not given adequate choices to resolve a problem in a sensible way.

Of course if I KNOW I'm making a risky choice, I usually live with the consequences. But there's a difference between risk taking and being "punished" by a problem of limited choices, misinterpretation, or generally thoughtless writing.
 

Slayer_2

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It's actually quite easy to kill Burke before he even shoots, especially with a realism mod. Also, you can kill him before he even draws his weapon, with no repercussions.
 

gewata

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I actually enjoy playing evil characters in RPGs. In Fallout 3, for example, I ALWAYS blow up Megaton. Every single time I try to play a good character, I get bored. Maybe it's because I am actually an evil sociopath, but I just don't know it yet.
 

LesIsMore

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Excellent article on how the games play with your sense of right and wrong. And yes, I too replayed the part with killing Burke multiple times - chiefly though because I wanted his hat as my character's trademark item, so with that and a Regulator Duster I felt I was roleplaying as a post-apocalyptic cousin to Rorschach. I found myself skipping over the Tenpenny Tower quest because I thought there was no satisfaction in any of the solutions.

But really, the area where Fallout 3 makes the biggest problem with moral choices is the ending. You basically only get two options:
either turn yourself into a saint by sacrificing your life to activate the purifier, or let it explode and condemn the entire wasteland to dehydration. You're either selfless or a bastard, and the only middle ground offered is to have someone else die in your place or contaminate the water with chemical weapons - yet more bastard choices.
Those of us who spent the game hovering around neutral were essentially called out to pick one or the other, and while I can see where they're going with this it just seems so black and white, especially for a game that is spoiled for moral choices and has one of the more balanced karma meters I've seen in games (unlike Bioshock, where killing more than one little girl gets you a bad ending - so picky).

Broken Steel thankfully let you keep going after this, but it did so at the consequence of removing a sense of closure. However, it did add an interesting subtext to my character's actions afterwards - an adventurer either tormented by his cowardice or conflicted by his survival - but I don't feel the developers took any effort to really run with that. Of course, what can you expect from DLC I suppose.
 

Black Rabt

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thenumberthirteen said:
Every problem caused by a bullet can be solved by a bullet.
Especially in fallout. If not solved you can at least feel better about yourself. Fallout has a tendency to screw you for seemingly smart choices.
 

thenumberthirteen

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Dec 19, 2007
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Black Rabt said:
thenumberthirteen said:
Every problem caused by a bullet can be solved by a bullet.
Especially in fallout. If not solved you can at least feel better about yourself. Fallout has a tendency to screw you for seemingly smart choices.
An apt metaphor for life.
 

Lord_Gremlin

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Now I see why I liked Fallout 3. I've intentionally made my character a bloodthirsty maniac, shooting innocent people for loot and eating their corpses (and selling ears to some nice old man).
Of course I've blown up the Megaton. Actually, the only places I haven't turned into scenes of mass murder with subsequent cannibalism were Paradise Falls and Tenpenny tower. Well, first I've sold quite some people as salves, of course.
And burned the tree-man with a flamethrower.
I think tis game wants you to be a dick. If you're trying to be good you feel like doing something very, very wrong.

P.S. I've even killed Dogmeat first time I saw him (and ate corpses around him) and sold a girl from Little Lamplight to slavers. I've also killed all dogs in Little Lamplight and spent some time throwing grenades into damn children, but the game's censored, sadly. No child meat for my character.
 

Hunde Des Krieg

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ObnoxiousPotatoe said:
Actually, if you're fast enough you can kill Mr. Burke before he shoots Simms.
REALLY? I have tried a buttload of times and never beat him to the punch in that situation.
 

commasplice

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malestrithe said:
This why I hate Western RPG's in general: not enough choices with the character development. You can either be good, evil or a neutral is almost always cowardly. I cannot stand the tabula rasa approach they have to the characters: with few exceptions, the protagonist, you, in Western rpgs is always generic hooligan with no real personality attached to him. You can either be rude or angelic and that is it. I really want more choices than just the two.

As much as this will get me crucified by some, atleast in jrpg country, you get to control fully fleshed out characters through their quest to kill god. Having a personality is so much better than being generic.
Wait, really? Did you really just try to say that JRPG characters have more personality than characters whose actions you get to choose for yourself? You honestly think that getting railroaded down a specific path for every character in the game gives you more choices for character development?

Maybe the main characters in games like KotOR and Fallout have no personalities of their own by default, but that's so that you can offer up bits of your personality to fill in the blanks. You're not even given that option in most JRPGs. I don't get a stiffy out of hating on JRPGs or anything, but I've played FF7-10, Kingdom Hearts 1 and Kingdom Hearts 2, and I really feel like any of those protagonists could have been switched around and they still would've been the same games. It's one thing to call a character that is effectively a blank slate "generic," but don't try and pretend like characters that are more or less interchangeable somehow aren't.
 

Wilmannator

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Okay, so maybe I'm missing the point of what was a rather eloquent look at gaming here... but man up! You're playing in a post-apocalyptic wasteland. So your childhood buddy doesn't love you any more. Big deal. I'm all for character attachment, but don't whine about it when the game developers failed to implement the "I want to win without killing" and the "please give me only G rated plot hooks" choices into system.

You want cute and fluffy, clean cut morality in your games? Grab yourself a Wii, download the full back catalog of Mario games and knock yourself out.
 

Altorin

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May 16, 2008
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I made my Continuity Save intentionally kill wrex in a paragon game, and I felt so horrible about it, and I had mangled my save up so much that I had to play through again to save him before I could move onto ME2.
 

The Random One

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I guess I just act as I feel like and end up being good. I wanted to be 'evil' in ME, but really couldn't do it. One of the 'evil' choices was to kill the people who were infected with that strange mindvirus rather than try to get past that are without shooting them. What? I may not be quite the hardcore gamer, but I play NetHack, man, if you challenge me to do a thing the harder way I'll fucking do it unless I hate the game. Then I decided to just let Shepherd be good the rest of the game.

(Every time a game lets me my character is a pale girl with short black hair. I like to think it's the same person. It's very easy to imagine the same girl from Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 4 ended up being the criminal element in Saints' Row 2, but Fallout 3 and Mass Effect are two games that I'm having trouble inserting into a coherent timeline, even if I assume she's immortal.)

I'm kind of saddened that the game didn't explore the 'curiosity' factor more. In games like Fallout 3 I will definitively replay somewhat large portions just to see the other outcome. I think I've finished the Oasis quest around four times.