Am I the only one who instantly thought of a game similar to "West Side Story" upon reading these words? Furthermore, am I the only one who would play that game?
246: Fighting Games: A Tapped-Out Genre?
- Thread starter Robert Bevill
- Start date
Oh, thank god I'm not the only one who knows about Jump! Super/Ultimate stars.
It's the only game my friends and I have played consistently, and still loved for 2 years.
A very thought-provoking Article; This coming from a diehard Tekken fan.
It's the only game my friends and I have played consistently, and still loved for 2 years.
A very thought-provoking Article; This coming from a diehard Tekken fan.
BlazBlue's training DVD was a good first step, but these games shouldn't NEED training DVDs. BlazBlue's game mechanics are a maze of difficult antiquated inputs like quarter circles and memorization-needed combos, the characters' unique play styles are pretty much impossible to determine unless you're already good at Guilty Gear, and the storyline is still an intro, a half-dozen arbitrary fights, and an epilogue.
The only hope right now for fighting games is Smash Bros. Much as it saddens me to say that.
The only hope right now for fighting games is Smash Bros. Much as it saddens me to say that.
A learning curve is only a problem if you are unwilling to learn. If you want to learn to do the crazy 30 hit combos, just sit down and do them. Its a game, not rocket science. The biggest key to a combo isn't mesmerizing the buttons you have to press, but understanding that you have to "feel" it as one motion. Once your brain recognizes that you hit and can go into it, you do. You have to be both confident that you can do it, and do it without thinking. Its like juggling. Once you start thinking about juggling, thats when you drop the balls. If your having trouble, have a friend (you know, a person that you know and like) try to help you out.
Also, DONT BE AFRAID TO LOSE! Its going to happen. I don't care if you Justin Wong, Umehara Daigo, or Ken Hoang; your going to lose at some point. Just try to see objectively what you did wrong and learn from your mistakes and try to get better. And if your not getting better, or your local competition is just miles ahead of you, ask for some help. Most reasonable people that have played fighters for a while (2+ years) will help you understand the game better.
But anyway, the real problem is that most people are scared of failure, and don't understand subjective development. Thats why there are rpgs are so successful now, they want the game to make them better over time, then to actually become a better player. That why I like fighting game, they don't care how long you play, what level you are, or how much gold you earned. If you are a better player, you will win (matchups and adaptability non-withstanding). You have to understand your skill level with a certain character (scrub to Pringles), your feel for match ups, and your ability to adapt to your opponents without the game giving you any details about your play experience. You have to know yourself and your opponnent. Weather you are a rush down, turtle, gimmick or whatever. You have to understand how to make the game adapt to your play style.
The person writing this article doesn't understand why people still play fighting games after so many years, or what makes fighting games fun. Its about competition, community, and understanding yourself. Sure its kinda a niche game stlye but its better then playing a game for 3 months just to get fucked up by some scrub just because he has better gear then you. And to play a subscription fee on top of it.
Also, DONT BE AFRAID TO LOSE! Its going to happen. I don't care if you Justin Wong, Umehara Daigo, or Ken Hoang; your going to lose at some point. Just try to see objectively what you did wrong and learn from your mistakes and try to get better. And if your not getting better, or your local competition is just miles ahead of you, ask for some help. Most reasonable people that have played fighters for a while (2+ years) will help you understand the game better.
But anyway, the real problem is that most people are scared of failure, and don't understand subjective development. Thats why there are rpgs are so successful now, they want the game to make them better over time, then to actually become a better player. That why I like fighting game, they don't care how long you play, what level you are, or how much gold you earned. If you are a better player, you will win (matchups and adaptability non-withstanding). You have to understand your skill level with a certain character (scrub to Pringles), your feel for match ups, and your ability to adapt to your opponents without the game giving you any details about your play experience. You have to know yourself and your opponnent. Weather you are a rush down, turtle, gimmick or whatever. You have to understand how to make the game adapt to your play style.
The person writing this article doesn't understand why people still play fighting games after so many years, or what makes fighting games fun. Its about competition, community, and understanding yourself. Sure its kinda a niche game stlye but its better then playing a game for 3 months just to get fucked up by some scrub just because he has better gear then you. And to play a subscription fee on top of it.
as someone who has tried to teach rookies I fully understand. Fighting games can not be fully enjoyed until you're able to execute the moves, it's something that separates it from most other genres such as fps games where the skills can be transferred between games far more easily.
FPS games are more a test of reactions of the skills and aiming then a test of memory and fast password like button executions and repetition which is what most fighting games play like.
FPS games are more a test of reactions of the skills and aiming then a test of memory and fast password like button executions and repetition which is what most fighting games play like.
That much was painfully obvious.Kurt Horsting said:
You also hit on another good point, which is that pulling off combo strings isn't actually difficult. Once you start doing them it quickly becomes muscle memory. You don't think about the buttons or the order of the combo, your body just executes it.
Fighting games are a very Zen experience. If you're thinking about what you're doing, you've missed the point entirely.
Real reason fighting games aren't as competitive as they used to be: People don't want to be competitive on a one on one level. Consumers have more of a choice of games these days and fighting games don't provide what the majority of consumers are looking for.
It is a niche market. The core of skilled players is actually LARGER than what it was when they first came out. The games are tailored now for that particular niche. Trying to 'cash in' on other, more casual players generally just hurts the games in the long run. Because people do try new stuff. Smash seemed to show that there was a new market for casual fighting games but then....... no, everyone who tried to make a game like that failed and ended up as a bargain bin title.
So really, unless you have some branding and/or some big tits, no one is going to care. Sure, you can do soem things to try and create friendlier games to new players, but 'innovation' for innovations sake is stupid. Most of the best games of this generation aren't great because they're INNOVATIVE, they're great because they are PUT TOGETHER SKILLFULLY AND WITH A HIGH LEVEL OF POLISH.
Also, whats with all the BB love? Ragna and Jin are the Ryu/Ken parallels. We've been past straight shoto ripoffs for years. Pokemon style teams and LEVELING? Yeah GREAT IDEA. Lets make it HARDER to play with your friends by creating level imbalances, or requiring grinding before hand, AND make it harder by requiring people to learn several characters at once. This is just a bad, bad, article, especially considering fighting games have had a lot more momentum over the last few years then they've had in a long time... And where did they get this momentum?
Through quality releases aimed at their CORE market.
People just gotta accept that fighting games will never be mainstream again. They were only mainstream when they were still novel and that novelness was only kept alive by Mortal Kombat providing a level of violence we can get out of pretty much any game at this point (also MK was terrible and we still bought it. Why? BLOOD). Peoples interests just don't crave that sort of competition usually. It's way safer on the ego and visually more 'fun' for most people to run along with squads of other people in some war game or something.
Developers do the right thing by realizing fighting games are generally a lower cost genre to develop for that also gives lower returns. Thats life. If you maim up the genre, you're just going to alienate your target audience and then NO ONE is going to buy the game. A developers goal is to not maximize units sold, it is to maximize profits. Sure you could get more people to buy your game by having a single player game that feels like God of War, but you're also going to multiply your production costs.
edit: This isn't REAL evidence, but in my social experience, the ease of people playing fighting games has nothing to do if people play them. IF someone sucks and they want to play, they'll play anyways. They will curse and scream and throw the controller, but they will play. On the other hand, the people who end up not playing are sometimes actually sorta good at the games! They just have no interest in that sort of game experience.
It is a niche market. The core of skilled players is actually LARGER than what it was when they first came out. The games are tailored now for that particular niche. Trying to 'cash in' on other, more casual players generally just hurts the games in the long run. Because people do try new stuff. Smash seemed to show that there was a new market for casual fighting games but then....... no, everyone who tried to make a game like that failed and ended up as a bargain bin title.
So really, unless you have some branding and/or some big tits, no one is going to care. Sure, you can do soem things to try and create friendlier games to new players, but 'innovation' for innovations sake is stupid. Most of the best games of this generation aren't great because they're INNOVATIVE, they're great because they are PUT TOGETHER SKILLFULLY AND WITH A HIGH LEVEL OF POLISH.
Also, whats with all the BB love? Ragna and Jin are the Ryu/Ken parallels. We've been past straight shoto ripoffs for years. Pokemon style teams and LEVELING? Yeah GREAT IDEA. Lets make it HARDER to play with your friends by creating level imbalances, or requiring grinding before hand, AND make it harder by requiring people to learn several characters at once. This is just a bad, bad, article, especially considering fighting games have had a lot more momentum over the last few years then they've had in a long time... And where did they get this momentum?
Through quality releases aimed at their CORE market.
People just gotta accept that fighting games will never be mainstream again. They were only mainstream when they were still novel and that novelness was only kept alive by Mortal Kombat providing a level of violence we can get out of pretty much any game at this point (also MK was terrible and we still bought it. Why? BLOOD). Peoples interests just don't crave that sort of competition usually. It's way safer on the ego and visually more 'fun' for most people to run along with squads of other people in some war game or something.
Developers do the right thing by realizing fighting games are generally a lower cost genre to develop for that also gives lower returns. Thats life. If you maim up the genre, you're just going to alienate your target audience and then NO ONE is going to buy the game. A developers goal is to not maximize units sold, it is to maximize profits. Sure you could get more people to buy your game by having a single player game that feels like God of War, but you're also going to multiply your production costs.
edit: This isn't REAL evidence, but in my social experience, the ease of people playing fighting games has nothing to do if people play them. IF someone sucks and they want to play, they'll play anyways. They will curse and scream and throw the controller, but they will play. On the other hand, the people who end up not playing are sometimes actually sorta good at the games! They just have no interest in that sort of game experience.
Good the see the art of writing articles without knowing jack shit about the subject is still alive and well. Saying fighting games have a poor plot is like saying a soccer tournament fails at storytelling.
Fighting games have evolved into a kind of "sport," and much like something like Quake 3 it's based entirely on appealing to THAT rather than anything else. If you're not into that competitive thing, then these games are probably not for you. Likewise you can still play them, but again just because you happen to hate soccer rules it's retarded to ask the rules to be changed just for your tastes when tons of people already play.
You can always make up your own fighter if you think you can do better, but I doubt it'd make any sense with such huge gaps in knowledge.
Fighting games have evolved into a kind of "sport," and much like something like Quake 3 it's based entirely on appealing to THAT rather than anything else. If you're not into that competitive thing, then these games are probably not for you. Likewise you can still play them, but again just because you happen to hate soccer rules it's retarded to ask the rules to be changed just for your tastes when tons of people already play.
You can always make up your own fighter if you think you can do better, but I doubt it'd make any sense with such huge gaps in knowledge.
This is the reason why I cannot stand 1 on 1 fighters. There's nothing new! I haven't loved a fighter since Soul Calibur 2 and I haven't liked one in quite a while either. Until something, *anything* new happens in the genre I am boycotting fighters. And, no, DOA's almost naked girls beating the snot out of each other doesn't count as innovation.
Hehehe... I forgot about that strip. Great comic.Tharticus said:
Fighting games have evolved. The pure fighters are the ape-like ancestors to God of War and Bayonetta... They have their place but by changing them you get something quite different and so they get redefined as "action" games... but they're still fighters in many respects.
Street Fighter IV sold well because of nostalgic fans - you dont see new players flocking to buy this any more then any other fighter. Now don't get me wrong.. I'm one of those fans. I bought the collectors on launch and I think the game is great... once you enter the ring.Icecoldcynic said:
The console versions were extremely weak. Take a step back, remove the ready made arcade game that was already set to go and look at that the console team actually did..
-Crappy menus
-No lobby system for online round robin with friends
-Extremely weak storylines.
-A terrible animated movie and bad quality figurines for those of us that forked out significantly more cash. (Seriously? They spend the whole damn movie making Ryu angry then go 'oh whoops, now hes angry and all powerful.. run awaaaayyyyy!')
Now they're releasing Super Street Fighter IV and fixing things that should never have made launch in the first place. Whats worse was the SSFII Hyper on Xbox live was a perfect example of what they SHOULD have done with the console versions. So they only explanations are that they are either unbelievably stupid and bad at game design or they did it on purpose with SSSIV in mind to 'fix' everything, make everyone shell out yet another 100 bucks and gives us a couple random costumes as a reward.
The annoying thing is that because it will have online round robin... I will buy it
.
Besides the fact I disagree with Wolfram's choice of words (lol ape like), it is pretty true. You can now get combat with a plethora of moves and have cool effects go off and the likes without things being linked to a "1 vs 1" fighting game base. Fighting games are a very exact thing. If you start trying to "innovate" the genre, you really just end up with a different genre.
Honestly if someone is looking for "something new" out of fighters, they don't like the genre to begin with. They are better served by newer games, such as GoW and Bayonetta as Wolf pointed out.
Personally as someone who actively played fighting games, MOST of them do something that I find to be significantly different. Street Fighter may still mostly be Street Fighter, but every other series has something different going on. If you can't notice or appreciate any of that, it isn't the genre's fault. You just don't like the genre, which is an extremely okay thing. Not every genre needs to be appealing to everyone.
Edit: Spar also touched on something though. Man, SF4's online was a joke. Thats the sort of stuff the community CAN benefit from. Good online and lobby support. Almost every other game has that too! That said, you live someplace terrible for gamers? Because the game is only like 40 bucks in the US compared to the original.
Honestly if someone is looking for "something new" out of fighters, they don't like the genre to begin with. They are better served by newer games, such as GoW and Bayonetta as Wolf pointed out.
Personally as someone who actively played fighting games, MOST of them do something that I find to be significantly different. Street Fighter may still mostly be Street Fighter, but every other series has something different going on. If you can't notice or appreciate any of that, it isn't the genre's fault. You just don't like the genre, which is an extremely okay thing. Not every genre needs to be appealing to everyone.
Edit: Spar also touched on something though. Man, SF4's online was a joke. Thats the sort of stuff the community CAN benefit from. Good online and lobby support. Almost every other game has that too! That said, you live someplace terrible for gamers? Because the game is only like 40 bucks in the US compared to the original.
These are valid points, but I don't think these flaws made SF4 weak in terms of its potential appeal to new players.Sparcrypt said:
SF4 is incredibly slick in the way its gameplay works. Not perfect by any means, but the accessiblity for beginners is really impressive. My daughter pulled off a Spinning Piledriver. She's seven. The original Street Fighter II had me struggling to do a mere Dragon Punch at more than twice that age!
Its just not your genre - get over it.
Now, I'm not good at fighters - never have been, probably never will be - but I love the games. In these days of leveling up, perks and unlocks fighting games have a purity of experience. It simply comes down to skill, theres no room for excuses - if you lost, you lost to a better player. It takes practice, skill and precision to effectivly fight in such a game - the quater circle is no more guilty of being arcaic than the turn based system of chess.
Now, I'm not good at fighters - never have been, probably never will be - but I love the games. In these days of leveling up, perks and unlocks fighting games have a purity of experience. It simply comes down to skill, theres no room for excuses - if you lost, you lost to a better player. It takes practice, skill and precision to effectivly fight in such a game - the quater circle is no more guilty of being arcaic than the turn based system of chess.
Street Fighter has always been built for the arcades in mind. Do you think people want to have to sit through stuff that isn't gameplay? No, they want to be playing as much as possible.Sparcrypt said:Street Fighter IV sold well because of nostalgic fans - you dont see new players flocking to buy this any more then any other fighter. Now don't get me wrong.. I'm one of those fans. I bought the collectors on launch and I think the game is great... once you enter the ring.Icecoldcynic said:
The console versions were extremely weak. Take a step back, remove the ready made arcade game that was already set to go and look at that the console team actually did..
-Crappy menus
-No lobby system for online round robin with friends
-Extremely weak storylines.
-A terrible animated movie and bad quality figurines for those of us that forked out significantly more cash. (Seriously? They spend the whole damn movie making Ryu angry then go 'oh whoops, now hes angry and all powerful.. run awaaaayyyyy!')
Now they're releasing Super Street Fighter IV and fixing things that should never have made launch in the first place. Whats worse was the SSFII Hyper on Xbox live was a perfect example of what they SHOULD have done with the console versions. So they only explanations are that they are either unbelievably stupid and bad at game design or they did it on purpose with SSSIV in mind to 'fix' everything, make everyone shell out yet another 100 bucks and gives us a couple random costumes as a reward.
The annoying thing is that because it will have online round robin... I will buy it
ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Street Fighter 4 sold over 3 million copies on 360 and PS3. I doubt most of those were on nostalgia. And in all the tournaments it's become the most played game too. EVO 09 had over 1400 people participate in the SF4 tourney. That's the biggest it has ever been for a video game tournament probably ever.
I'm 18, I was born the year SF2 came out, and I love Street Fighter. The last Street Fighter game before 4 was just over ten years ago, just like me, I'm sure people picked it up after it's hay day and grew to love it. I played Alpha 2 and 3rd strike a lot growing up. Street Fighter 4 to me is a great game, and people forget it was one of the game to really revitalize the genre. 2008 with HD Remix sales and SF4 in arcades brought the attention of other companies that have their great games like Guilty Gear and King of Fighters to bring their stuff to the public in 2009, which to me is the year fighters made a come back. and now in Early 2010 people are saying it's getting stale?
get outta here.
And I'm definitely getting Supa for 40 dollars, not 100. Where did you see that? Is that like the price in your region? That sucks
This, incredibly this.mindlesspuppet said:
Guilty Gear XX and its various follow-ups (Reload, Accent Core, etc.) are the only traditional fighting games I've enjoyed for longer than a few hours. I can do alright with Tekken's Paul if I need to, but the game isn't as entertaining as GG. That said, playing them at home on my own? Not fun regardless. Part of what made that game so fun to play was playing it in the rec center at college with friends between classes just kicking the crap out of each other and mocking whoever was screwing up the most, laughing at random glitches (Slayer doing air-to-ground super KO'd Slayer doing ground-to-air super when the latter teleported through the airborne Slayer and got exploded in the backwash of his dive. Funny timing. ... Maybe you had to be there.) and just generally having a good time. I can't imagine trying to play that kind of game online - I'd need the people around me in the room for chatter and laughter and just...atmosphere in general. It's part of the game - without that it feels incomplete. Dramatically so.
Wishing I had the console for Blazblue, but it wouldn't be as fun to play on my own anyway. :|
Two other notes:
-On rhythm-based fighting, I believe there's a mechanic in Guilty Gear Isuka that causes combo hits to do more damage if you land them in time with the background music of the stage, but I'm not proficient enough with combos to test that out. Just something I read about the game.
-A West Side Story rhythm-fighter would be hilarious win. I wouldn't play it as I hate/suck at rhythm games, but I'd feel compelled to watch someone else play it.