246: Fighting Games: A Tapped-Out Genre?

[TheGreatFedora]

Items and stage hazards were done by Ehrgeiz before Smash Bros.

Def Jam: Icon attempted to do rhythm-based fighting to an extent; didn't turn out too well, but it was a neat idea.

Just sayin'.

 

[Fappy]

Really good article. I'm glad BlazBlue is getting the credit it deserves. Things will have to change more drastically than what BlazBlue offered if it is going to survive beyond our generation however.

 

[TarkXT]

It's funny when you think about what you want and then look at some of the older PS1 classics like Bushido Blade 2 and its predecessor. Both had very good stories, decent learning curves, interesting characters, and basically did things that were very different form the direction that the genre was going in at the time.

I think risks are hard for game publishers and developers to make simply because of the immense amounts of money that go into each game. When you're given limited time and limited budget with the incentive that if you don't make a game that sells it will cost you your job...well it's no wonder stagnation is the rule of thumb.

 

[KayinN]

Also wait, why is Blazblue getting so much credit? For what? Being a worse Guilty Gear? The crazy, comborific Fighter is an old concept at this point. Considering the game has less gameplay diversity then Guilty Gear.

I don't care what people play. You gotta be really into this shit to understand BB's failings and most people wouldn't care. Regardless of being fun, why is it getting any credit in this regards? Guilty Gear was ALSO fun. Maybe less of you have played it, but the point is that the game didn't bring anything new to the table. Even if the game was great (from the perspective of a serious fighting game guy like my self), it still wouldn't deserve credit for any of this. You're praising a game for being unique when it's just like the last 10 years of Japanese fighting games.

This gets to a deeper point. Who cares about originality and innovation? Blazblue is getting all this praise here just because no one is aware of knowledgable of all the games it's like. And really, who cares -- if you like the game, knowing this now won't make you like it less. The thing is to make GOOD GAMES. If you're into 1v1 competitive, balanced game play, fighting games are still very good games. If the games are boring to you, then you should realize the genre isn't for you, not cry for originality. Because you don't want originality, you actually just want the genre to pander to you.

EDIT: WHILE WE'RE AT IT, people talking about being 'save' and profits ALSO bugs me. We're not taking about Triple A titles here. Lotta games with big names can suck and make a ton of money When talking about smaller budget games, losing sales can almost directly equate to less people having fun. Most fighting games that try and 'innovate' tend to just unappealing to no one but a few casual players. The fighting scene ignores them, and your average player would rather get the new GoW game.

 

[Kurt Horsting]

Also, whats with all the BB love? Ragna and Jin are the Ryu/Ken parallels. We've been past straight shoto ripoffs for years.

Um... wtf are you talking about? Just cause they have an both have an uppercut move and one of them has ok fireballs? If you actually learned to play instead of hitting the buttons with your face, you would see that they their own unique pace and game stlye. Closest characters they come to is sol and ky from gg. But even if your right, why would it be bad to have standard, "pick up and play" characters that new people can get familiar with?
Other reasons BB should get props for is for the interesting drives. I.e. Tager's magnetism, Rachel's wind, and Carl's doll, Arakune's bugs etc. Those are extremely deep, and complex concepts to both use and defend against in a fighting game.
And what did SF4 do new... they stole roman canceling.

Also wait, why is Blazblue getting so much credit? For what? Being a worse Guilty Gear? The crazy, comborific Fighter is an old concept at this point. Considering the game has less gameplay diversity then Guilty Gear.

I don't care what people play. You gotta be really into this shit to understand BB's failings and most people wouldn't care. Regardless of being fun, why is it getting any credit in this regards? Guilty Gear was ALSO fun. Maybe less of you have played it, but the point is that the game didn't bring anything new to the table. Even if the game was great (from the perspective of a serious fighting game guy like my self), it still wouldn't deserve credit for any of this. You're praising a game for being unique when it's just like the last 10 years of Japanese fighting games.

EDIT: WHILE WE'RE AT IT, people talking about being 'safe' and profits ALSO bugs me. We're not taking about Triple A titles here. Lotta games with big names can suck and make a ton of money When talking about smaller budget games, losing sales can almost directly equate to less people having fun. Most fighting games that try and 'innovate' tend to just unappealing to no one but a few casual players. The fighting scene ignores them, and your average player would rather get the new GoW game.

Say what you want about Melty Gear, um... I mean... Blazblue. It's still a really good game. And dont act like GG is perfect. Need i bring up Slash ky, AC buri, Eddie being broken in every fucking game he is in, Bite loop, Slash Back being fucking pointless, Ac testy's forward exe beast (+9 on block, can otg, and can be FRC'd!!!) and badlands loops and Ac potemkin in general just to name a few things wrong with GG (Btw despite these flaws i still think gg is the best fighting game series of all time). Just fucking enjoy the game for what it is, and dont shit on another game for doing 'most' things right.

Ya, and the more props for GG the better.

 

[TIFunkalicious]

Every single person I play sf4, ST, HDR, 3s, and GG with would quickly agree that we would like our games better if no story or single player mode was included and the developers spent all the extra time on character balance. BB was fun on release day, and I personally think the DVD should be a standard thing for future games in the genre, maybe even update it online with new tips/tricks/glitches in the meta.

My college life wouldn't be pretty without them. Days filled with class, homework, rowing at the gym, and then sleep would kill me. So I occupy my time with Street Fighter. I've made friends playing this game in my area. It's taught me good study and life habits. Seriously, success is a long hard road, with such painfully small increments of improvement you never really know how far you've come until you see a simpler differential equation, are told to code a program to solve a more trivial problem, do reps at a lower weight, or face a less skilled opponent at an arcade.

Point is, fighting games are a goddamn sport to me. I don't care if I don't make alot of money at tournaments. There's enough people there for me to find good competition.

I don't care if games like BlazBlue come out. I played for a few months and me/friends found it to not have very strong legs to stand on. I hope their good ideas (the brilliant DVDs for example) can be put to work to make my genre better. Teaching people how deep these games are in the first place brings in players. But I don't want to wake up to articles claiming my games 'aren't fun' and should be 'reconsidered and redesigned' because the developers are too busy working the red and blue hitboxes to give you much of a story, leaving oh-so-many reviews of 'Seth too hard fail game'.

 

[Woe Is You]

Say what you want about Melty Gear, um... I mean... Blazblue.

I think the whole thing was to point out that BlazBlue is getting praise for things that it doesn't deserve, not that the game isn't/couldn't be good. I like Blazblue but I'm not going to kid myself that it's something revolutionary compared to Guilty Gear or other past games Guilty Gear has been inspired by.

I am interested why 2D fighters today are so obsessed about having super bars and all sorts of other bars instead of getting rid of them and trying to do what Hyper Fighting did so successfully. It'd be a completely different kind of game but I'd like to see it -- if I had the time and devotion, I'd be actually making it. Shame I absolutely suck at art.

And on a completely different note, the comment about fighting games having to not take themselves seriously is bizarre. I agree that not all fighting games should do that but on the other hand, not all fighting games should go all silly and wacky. Variety, is all.

 

[KayinN]

Also, whats with all the BB love? Ragna and Jin are the Ryu/Ken parallels. We've been past straight shoto ripoffs for years.

Um... wtf are you talking about? Just cause they have an both have an uppercut move and one of them has ok fireballs? If you actually learned to play instead of hitting the buttons with your face, you would see that they their own unique pace and game stlye. Closest characters they come to is sol and ky from gg. But even if your right, why would it be bad to have standard, "pick up and play" characters that new people can get familiar with?

Woooow, I assure you I've played this game and other games without just 'pushing the buttons'. The point is that shoto analogs have been different in various games. Now in BB Ragna and Jin are more Sol/Ky analogs (Mostly meaning Ragna is more divorced from shotoism), but whatever. The article screams "HOW ORIGINAL" when really, who cares? It has the same roots as everything else and you can still see them. It doesn't make the game magically better or worse. Then consider a lot of gimmicks in BB are just a reshuffling of GG gimmicks, well I think the originality thing is all overstated. Now, I personally don't give a damn about originality -- just give me something good and balanced and fun -- but I don't want to hear this sort of praise where it's undeserved.

Other reasons BB should get props for is for the interesting drives. I.e. Tager's magnetism, Rachel's wind, and Carl's doll, Arakune's bugs etc. Those are extremely deep, and complex concepts to both use and defend against in a fighting game.
And what did SF4 do new... they stole roman canceling.

This I totally disagree with -- well at least in regards to Guilty Gear. It's hard to actually deny that ASW doesn't do interesting stuff. REGARDLESS. Big concepts thrown on a button doesn't mean 'deep'. I would argue BB's lack of depth compared to Guilty Gear is there is no nuance. I can't speak for CS (I already gave up on BB), but in CT, characters were dominated by their gimmicks. That's like, the whole character. There is no depth or nuance. We just rub our gimmicks against each other, take some turns with some strings and BAM. Guilty Gear had the formula right. It had strong gimmicks combined with well developed characters. Instead of having short range loli-arm lolis, GG characters had the normals to make for some great footsies and zoning. It also never let gimmicks get to overbearing (unless you're Eddie). It had the right balance to create actual, honest to god gameplay depth.

To go with SF4, it really didn't need to be original. the SF formula already has a lot of depth going on in it's style of game. Trying to reinvent the wheel would probably of just shat on what they already had going.. Though that said, in the context of this article, SF4 shouldn't be getting much praise either.

Say what you want about Melty Gear, um... I mean... Blazblue. It's still a really good game. And dont act like GG is perfect. Need i bring up Slash ky, AC buri, Eddie being broken in every fucking game he is in, Bite loop, Slash Back being fucking pointless, Ac testy's forward exe beast (+9 on block, can otg, and can be FRC'd!!!) and badlands loops and Ac potemkin in general just to name a few things wrong with GG (Btw despite these flaws i still think gg is the best fighting game series of all time). Just fucking enjoy the game for what it is, and dont shit on another game for doing 'most' things right.

Ya, and the more props for GG the better.

Hey I hate the game and that's not going to change, but a quick googling shows me you're someone who plays and competes (also I think you're someone from DL, but I can't remember who). I respect that. Even then, the game has a scene and it's really not THAT bad (I mean, it's not SFEX or anything), so I can see people getting over the dumb stuff. You're right, GG had it's own share of BS, but I think the core of the game was more sound. But hey, play what you like and rock some heads. I just got annoyed at the undue overblown respect for it's "innovation" going around in this thread. Also I didn't expect anyone who plays beyond " hitting the buttons with your face" to post.

Also Slash Ky, while still the best character in Slash, is totally overrated.

 

[MoD1212]

While I do see the need for innovation in fighters, all genres need innovation to survive, but don't bash tried and true series like Street Fighter and Tekken. within their set of controls and game play styles have shifted with every installment. ask any true street fighter fan and they have a favorite series.(Street fighter 3 third strike for me)

Innovation just comes to fighting games slow due to the nature of fighter fans. any one who is a fighter fan played a fighting game and like it enough to look for the fighter perfect for them.

Innovation will come (just look at power stone, smash bros, Final Fantasy Dissdia etc) you just can't expect to see it from street fighter, Tekken, virtua fighter, King of fighters etc those games have a core fan base to please and they do often.

 

[sukotsuto]

That's why I want at least some game companies to concentrate their efforts in making true/realistic fighting games instead of trying to find a market where the Tekken, Guilty Gear and Street Fighter games excels at.

ESP Games, in particular, gave me what is now my undisputed favorite fighting game of all time: Garouden Breakblow : Fist or Twist And games like UFC Undisputed and EA MMA now appeals to me more, as I can finally get my realistic martial arts fix. (After all, I'm kinda sick of seeing simple uppercuts launching the heck out of someone, then doing jabs to keep them in midair. That and combos are getting old on me, I want realism now).

 

[Grahav]

All games are better with phisically present friends. Fighting games live on that.

But I really wish for better stories, and quarter-circles are hard to casual gamers. Try to imagin 720° and things like ultra combos and such to a newbie.

 

[cidbahamut]

quarter-circles video games are hard to casual gamers

Fixed that for you.

 

[Kurt Horsting]

quarter-circles video games are hard to casual gamers

Fixed that for you.

/\ truth in the above post.

 

[Daze]

Maybe it's just because I haven't had as much exposure to some fighting games as opposed to others, but I think that the formula as it is now (as other peeps have said) isn't as bad as the article says it is. At the very least, there are games that get it right, and those that get it wrong.

Now, I'm bad at fighting games in general. Street Fighter, Marvel vs. Capcom, Soul Calibur... I was never any good at them. The only fighting games I can hold a candle in would be the Smash Bros. games (Brawl, specifically). In this case, the fact that I can be even somewhat competitive is what draws me back, alongside the whole premise of the series: Nintendo's finest knocking each other into orbit. The game is interesting, in my opinion, and so it deserves my interest.

Guilty Gear is another title I liked. With this one, I'm back to sucking pretty badly (I pretty much rely on Testament for his range). However, the diverse quirks and qualities of characters and the amusing spotlight stories of each are sufficient for me to enjoy playing it. (If I owned the game itself, that would probably help my skill problem.)

DBZ fighting games do the same. The Budokai and Tenkaichi series are an outlet for all the nostalgia and awesomeness that I associate with DBZ, even if the games themselves aren't perfect in their execution.

It all comes back to one thing for me: How interesting and amusing/awesome is the game I'm playing? My problem with games such as Street Fighter is simply that they aren't quite interesting enough for me. With unique characters, epic finishing moves, and at least modest accessibility, I think any fighting game can reach people who would have interest in it in the first place. Because not all people will enjoy fighting games, just as there are many people who don't enjoy FPSs, RPGs, RTS, MMOs, and any other number of acronyms. I'm generally not that crazy about fighting games, but I'm open enough to let them catch my eye. And what's more eye-catching than successfully launching a Spirit Bomb at your opponent that happens to blow away a good quarter of the planet along with him?

 

[Legion IV]

I think the writer just does not know enough about fighting games. Lets get a top player or even some very versed in fighting games like, David Sirlin, Seth Killian ect ect and lets see what they say about the current form of fighting games. Fighting games are only getting better and in my personel oppinion the only thing hampering fighting games is how they are being made to grab the casuals. Fighting games is the best genre out there. Guilty Gear is by far my favorite game and game series of all time.

There is so much depth in games like GG,SF,TE,BB,KOF. Its not made for the casuals so why do they keep complaining do they want in our club? Either you learn it or not. The fighting game scene is booming so i dont know why he says its dying. Look at Evo the largest fighting game tournament in the states, numbers are only increasing. Fighting games are a neich community and genre thats pretty much it.

His suggestions are just flat out ludacris. Also calling it redundant is a little silly. Running around shooting people the same way isint redundant (FPS) Or random encounters and running around doing fetch quests isint (RPGS). Its whatever you enjoy, i say we leave this kind of thing to people who have a passion for fighting games. That is all.

 

[VicViper]

This article is so bad, I registered just to post this. Holy fucking wow, this article is SO full of shit, and it makes me angry that there are people out there who would actually believe this crap.

 

[Katana314]

Legion IV, the precise fact that he knows so little about fighting games is exactly WHY he should be commenting on it; because their recent trouble has been bringing in people due to their indistinguishable gameplay and steep learning curves. A fresh perspective is necessary.

And I'm not even going to comment on seeing the "FPS's are all repetitive you just shoot people, RPG's are all the same you just LVL UP, puzzles games are all repetitive you just solve puzzles..." argument for the 506th time...

Here's my suggestions for how a fighting game could bring in a new audience.

- Bring challenge to deciding which move to use, not knowing how to do that move. Maybe the best way to counter the enemy's hadoken spam is a certain move that leaps over all of them and plants my fist in his face. But THAT move would be ineffective at any time when he can block or is close to me. Now all that thinking that goes into deciding that move should not then translate to - "OK, now was it THIS motion or THAT motion?...Damn, I missed the button by a millisecond!" Ideally, we could have a fighting game that cuts out joystick-movements for attacks and still comes out complex and challenging.

- If we insist on long combos, contextual assistance wouldn't be a sin. Might be nice seeing a little "move tree" to the side of my character showing the button I could press to advance my move; with little faded buttons to the right showing what I can do from there.

- Stronger cues. In fighting games, one cardinal requirement is recognizing the very first frame of the opponent's attack as being the Dogen Hauko, which will launch you upward unless you crouch and block. But note that it looks sort of similar to the Dogen Hurricane, which is best countered with a grab. Some sort of color-based system might make active responses easier to new players without actually reducing difficulty. For instance, one's fists flash a bright yellow if they're about to grab. If it's designed generically enough, you could fight a character you've never seen before and still predict his moves OK.

 

[Legion IV]

I understand that argument is used and dosent work so why does he say there redundant? He shouldnt be able to. I honestly just think that not many people play fighting games, everything you guys complain about is pretty mutch intinct to the people that have a passion for fighting games. Heres a little example. Everyone remember FF8 good rpg but it was needlesly complicated, imagine giving somone whos never touched an rpg FF8 or even a better example. My older brother was running out of games he wanted to try somthing new (hes a shooter fan) So when i go to visit him i give him Lost oddesy he was enthuastic. Guess what hes never played an rpg and it was really hard and was always asking me questions over live.

Everyone who dosent play fighting games will complain or support this guy but to people who play fighting games everyday, Long combos are muscle memory, 1 frame links are memory as well. All fighting games need is practice and dedication, alas this generation just seems to wanna win out of the box they dont want to have to go to Dustloop and SRK to learn and master there game.

Gonzo i completly disagree. The person commenting should know about the genre and should be decent at it. Like the situation with my brother what if he reveiwed a new RPG and gave it low because well he didn't understand the mechanics and what makes it great.

Were going through a fighting game resnaissance the only real hinder were going through is how they are getting shortcuts (SF4) to help make the motions better but also screws up the pros. The genre is fine. If any genre needs help and innovation its action adventure.

 

[cidbahamut]

- Bring challenge to deciding which move to use, not knowing how to do that move. Maybe the best way to counter the enemy's hadoken spam is a certain move that leaps over all of them and plants my fist in his face. But THAT move would be ineffective at any time when he can block or is close to me. Now all that thinking that goes into deciding that move should not then translate to - "OK, now was it THIS motion or THAT motion?...Damn, I missed the button by a millisecond!" Ideally, we could have a fighting game that cuts out joystick-movements for attacks and still comes out complex and challenging.

This is absolute bullshit and I'm calling you on it.

This is why it's bullshit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory

Muscle memory, also known as motor memory, is a form of procedural memory that involves consolidating a specific motor task into memory through repetition. When a movement is repeated over time, a long-term muscle memory is created for that task; eventually allowing it to be performed without conscious effort. This process decreases the need for attention and creates maximum efficiency within the motor and memory systems. Examples of muscle memory are found in many everyday activities that become automatic and improve with practice, such as riding a bicycle or typing on a keyboard.

You don't think about button combos, you execute them. It stops being a conscious process. People need to stop pretending otherwise. You're just showing off your ignorance about the genre.