246: Fighting Games: A Tapped-Out Genre?

[bjj hero]

Dissidia revolutionised the controls by using the analog stick for movement. It also features huge arenas which are highly interactive in that they can be flown through, jumped on and that they can be demolished. On top of that you can smash your opponents against the decor for extra damage. There are added RPG elements (this is a Final Fantasy title after all) so you can upgrade your characters, equip them and personalise their abilities.

It sounds like PowerStone 2, thats a compliment.

The only two fighting games stories I care about Tekken's and Soul Calibur's

I suck at most 2d fighting games I'm a little bit better at 3d fighting games but I hate how if i wanna get better I have to buy a fighting stick and learn bunch combos. Which to me is not fun.

Tekken isn't about memorising combos and juggles? Did you ever play as King or Nina?

In the article he argues that fighting games should try rpg elements like pokemon. Its been done. Go and play Street Fighter Alpha 3 (you even decided how to level them up, my Zangief could kill you with 2 Spinning Pile Drivers), The newest Soul Calibur and Tekken, Any of the UFC games. They all involve building and developing charecter.

He complains about lack of story... say like Counter Strike of Team Fortress or Forza. No one said these games were worse for their lack of story. It reaks of double standards. These are games about competition, I'll play Mass Effect when I want story driven. Everything doesn't need to be story driven and if were are honest even the best in game stories are no where near as good as an average film or book as far as story goes.

I love fighting games, the biggest barrier I see is that console controllers and PCs are not built to play them. Anyone who is half way serious needs to splash out on pricey peripherals. The closest to a passable input for (particularly 2D)fighters is the PS3 controller and I wouldnt be happy about using one.

Its no different from RTS or FPS games. I grew up learning to throw fireballs, first in the arcades then on my SNES and on and on. It may be hard to pick up, totally new, and play (We used to joke about marrying the first girl we met who could throw dragon punches) but the same could be said about FPS and those games are thriving.

Don't believe me? Let your uncle/dad/girlfriend/stereotypical-none-gamer play an FPS if they've not played before. They will spend most of their time in a corner staring at the ceiling. At least they can mash buttons and throw basic strikes on street fighter.

The only thing I do agree with is that fighters aren't developing at any pace, niether are shooters, or racing games or... I could go on. Its an industry that plays safe. Once a title does something different successfully others will follow. The biggest change I've seen is the move towards create a fighter but even thats not really new.

 

[Gasaraki]

W00t! blazblue ftw!
Where else can you pit a catgirl against a...erm...pile of goo?
Wtf is arakune?

 

[KayinN]

Where else can you pit a catgirl against a...erm...pile of goo?

/h/ on 4chan?

 

[thenewprince]

I agree 100% with this article. I've been a tournament winner in the past for Tekken and i have to tell you right now i sold Tekken 6 within the first week of playing it. Blaze blue is an amazing game to me and even my non gamer girlfriend preferred watching a match there then desperate housewives. All i'm saying is that the right step to take with the fighting genre is to make us care about kicking each others ass again, and not the cheap way.

 

[-Seraph-]

This article fails miserably in both the understanding of game design and knowledge of the genre. Lets get the easy stuff out of the way first.

1) Story?...STORY!? fighting games have never been about story and they don't need to be about story. If anything, the story mode is simply there are a means to help a player learn to ropes of the game if they so choose not to use the practice mode. Sure you could add story to a fighting game, but WHY? It's like complaining there is no story in a racing or sports game, it's not there (or really weak) because that's not the primary focus of the game. Not all games require story, and not all games benefit from story plain and simple.

2) Archaic gameplay? are you sure you are not confusing archaic with core and fundamental gameplay. The controls of a fighting game have aged no different than many other genres such as the shooter or the RTS. Complaining about inputting a sequence of buttons and saying it's hard for newcomers is laughably stupid. Why should fighting games move away from their fundamental controls? it's like saying aiming in an FPS or selecting troops in an RTS is stale and outdated, it's just flat out being lazy and looking for something to complain about.

Yes the gameplay in MOST fighting games can be rather indistinguishable to newcomers, but again it can be applied to a plethora of genres. Fighting games are all about whats under the hood and although the mechanical differences can be subtle, that's a good thing. What this writer did was simply look at rudimentary aspects and overblown them, nothing more. Half circles, quarter circles, rapid cancels, EX bursts, ect are still around because they both define the genre and they WORK.

Spoiler: 3) Too hard for newcomers? Well this was already well covered by a previous poster.

A learning curve is only a problem if you are unwilling to learn. If you want to learn to do the crazy 30 hit combos, just sit down and do them. Its a game, not rocket science. The biggest key to a combo isn't mesmerizing the buttons you have to press, but understanding that you have to "feel" it as one motion. Once your brain recognizes that you hit and can go into it, you do. You have to be both confident that you can do it, and do it without thinking. Its like juggling. Once you start thinking about juggling, thats when you drop the balls. If your having trouble, have a friend (you know, a person that you know and like) try to help you out.

Also, DONT BE AFRAID TO LOSE! Its going to happen. I don't care if you Justin Wong, Umehara Daigo, or Ken Hoang; your going to lose at some point. Just try to see objectively what you did wrong and learn from your mistakes and try to get better. And if your not getting better, or your local competition is just miles ahead of you, ask for some help. Most reasonable people that have played fighters for a while (2+ years) will help you understand the game better.

But anyway, the real problem is that most people are scared of failure, and don't understand subjective development. Thats why there are rpgs are so successful now, they want the game to make them better over time, then to actually become a better player. That why I like fighting game, they don't care how long you play, what level you are, or how much gold you earned. If you are a better player, you will win (matchups and adaptability non-withstanding). You have to understand your skill level with a certain character (scrub to Pringles), your feel for match ups, and your ability to adapt to your opponents without the game giving you any details about your play experience. You have to know yourself and your opponnent. Weather you are a rush down, turtle, gimmick or whatever. You have to understand how to make the game adapt to your play style.

The person writing this article doesn't understand why people still play fighting games after so many years, or what makes fighting games fun. Its about competition, community, and understanding yourself. Sure its kinda a niche game stlye but its better then playing a game for 3 months just to get fucked up by some scrub just because he has better gear then you. And to play a subscription fee on top of it.

4) unintuitive gameplay? that is what the manual is for, the provided move list, the god damned PRACTICE modes are for; to get you in touch with how the game works. While being intuitive can be a good thing for games, a real good thing, there can sometimes be a price to pay for it. There is something about being intuitive that can compromise the overall complexity and depth of the game; and a fighting game without depth or complexity is a terrible game. Why must it be so accessible? why must it always be "dumbed down" for those who are not willing to take the time to learn? Fighting games are about pure skill and the only way you learn is by climbing that steep hill. Fighting games are a whole lot more simplistic and easier than some may think, which is funny as their simplicity comes from how complex they can be.

5) Mix it up a bit? There a plenty of different fighters out there, hell look at smash bros, there's a perfect example. I'm gonna pretend the suggestions in the article are jokes because boy did they give me a sick laugh.

Spoiler: And Now I have the one simple and absolute answer to this articles complaint/suggestion of fighting games innovating. You want something new? you want something intuitive? you want something with a competent story? You want the fighting game this article has been complaining for? Well here it is.

If you don't like the genre, or do not understand it's competitive and sport like nature, then don't play it and don't complain. It's clearly not a genre this writer know much about or even cares for.

 

[Sparcrypt]

-Crappy menus
-No lobby system for online round robin with friends

These are valid points, but I don't think these flaws made SF4 weak in terms of its potential appeal to new players.

SF4 is incredibly slick in the way its gameplay works. Not perfect by any means, but the accessibility for beginners is really impressive. My daughter pulled off a Spinning Piledriver. She's seven. The original Street Fighter II had me struggling to do a mere Dragon Punch at more than twice that age!

Well.. I dont know what to tell you there, I played it back then and I play it now, the moves are pretty much the same difficulty level

 

[Sparcrypt]

Street Fighter has always been built for the arcades in mind. Do you think people want to have to sit through stuff that isn't gameplay? No, they want to be playing as much as possible.

I don't understand this statement.. are you saying that people aren't interested in well designed menus and highly demanded and popular online modes and functions? Because if so you're wrong.

I am a huge SF fan. I'm just not a SF fanboy.. and to overlook then VERY large flaws of the console version requires a fanboys perspective.

you dont see new players flocking to buy this any more then any other fighter.

ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Street Fighter 4 sold over 3 million copies on 360 and PS3. I doubt most of those were on nostalgia. And in all the tournaments it's become the most played game too. EVO 09 had over 1400 people participate in the SF4 tourney. That's the biggest it has ever been for a video game tournament probably ever.

Nostalgia was probably a bad term for it - I would bet many of those 3 million were already established Street Fighter fans though. Most of the rest would be established fighter fans.

I'm 18, I was born the year SF2 came out, and I love Street Fighter. The last Street Fighter game before 4 was just over ten years ago, just like me, I'm sure people picked it up after it's hay day and grew to love it. I played Alpha 2 and 3rd strike a lot growing up. Street Fighter 4 to me is a great game, and people forget it was one of the game to really revitalize the genre. 2008 with HD Remix sales and SF4 in arcades brought the attention of other companies that have their great games like Guilty Gear and King of Fighters to bring their stuff to the public in 2009, which to me is the year fighters made a come back. and now in Early 2010 people are saying it's getting stale?

get outta here.

You don't have to sell SF to me.. like I said, very big fan. My point was they completely dropped the ball for the console version when they had the framework from HD Remix ready to go.

And I'm definitely getting Supa for 40 dollars, not 100. Where did you see that? Is that like the price in your region? That sucks

It's called living in Australia, where we are overcharged for games simply because we can be.

 

[StriderShinryu]

Gotta agree with most of the posters in this thread... there really isn't anything wrong with fighting games. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the thing that is wrong with fighting games is fighting games that try to appeal to too many different people. SF4, for example, has turned out to be a pretty good game by most accounts but none of that was because of how it was dumbed down from previous entries (no ISMs, no custom combos, no selectable supers, no varying power level supers, etc.).

Traditional fighting games are a niche genre with an extremely die hard base and the only thing they need to do to expand upon that is to showcase themselves more. There have been many mentions lately of games that are in some ways more fun to watch than they are to play (GoW3, Uncharted 2, Heavy Rain, etc.) but well played fighting games are at least as good as if not better than anything that's been mentioned. Sure it's been overused, but show someone the Daigo comeback video and you'll quickly see someone who wants to at try a fighting game. After that it's in that individual player's court and no game design choices will make up for a lack of dedication, just like in any genre.

 

[feeqmatic]

Im sorry but complaining about innovation in to make fighting games better for everyone is like complaing about making RPGs better for everyone. It just doesnt make sense. Fighting games are the way they are for fighting game fans. You either appreciate the sharp learning curve, the challenge, the variety of characters and the competetion or you dont. All of this genre blending in gaming is really starting to piss me off!

Case in point two of the biggest RPG releases of recent memory (FF13 and Mass effect 2)both had their ROG elements pared down so that other game fans can appreciate.

Every year Madden 2010 leaves out realistic game elements in order to add a new gimmick to draw in casual fans.

Even fighting games like tekken added crap "anime" style characters to pull from anime's popularity and all but broke the general dynamics and personality of the game with broken characters.

Everybody will not like every game, everybody shouldnt like every game. When I wannt a linear straight beat em up "spectacle fighter" ill play Bayonetta or ninja gaiden not Final Fantasy, when I want a visceral shooter with simple pick up and play elements ill play Gears of War not Mass Effect, when I want an over the top anime experience ill play Naruto not Tekken.

Games are trying so hard to be everything to everybody they will end up being nothing.

 

[KayinN]

Not to defend SF4s shitty netplay and lobby system but they couldn't really just drop HDRs right in. Besides SF4 not being able to support GGPO, both games were being developers concurrently by Capcom US and Capcom Japan.

That said, it still sucked -- more then just about every other fighting game netplay lobby system. Even without being able to use HDRs lobby/netplay system, the quality was still inexcusable.

 

[Lullabye]

>:< Leave my fighting genre alone you innovative bastards!
Don't worry Tekken, DOA, DBZ, I won't let the bad men hurt you!
Well, maybe DBZ could do the reverse and go back to the Tenkaichi roots where I could smash people through things.....
Actually, DOA is a perfect example of what can happen to a series when people lose sight of whats important in a genre.

 

[SamElliot'sMustache]

Or perhaps a rhythm-based fighting game...

Am I the only one who instantly thought of a game similar to "West Side Story" upon reading these words? Furthermore, am I the only one who would play that game?

no, I'd probably play that too

The one problem I could see with a game like that is the danger of it being based soley around Quick Time Events. I don't hate QTEs like some players do, but I would prefer that they be used more as pieces of the whole rather than the whole itself. Maybe if the fighting and the rhythm were just tied together it would work, like this example:

-On rhythm-based fighting, I believe there's a mechanic in Guilty Gear Isuka that causes combo hits to do more damage if you land them in time with the background music of the stage, but I'm not proficient enough with combos to test that out. Just something I read about the game.

Ah, if only I was good at programming, I'd love to take on this concept.

 

[NeutralDrow]

Fate offers special missions that let you ease into the different characters. Missions go from defeating an enemy in a limited amount of time, to performing a specific combo to playing a mini-game. It has a very varried roster, ranging from a creepy girl that comes straight out of The Ring [http://cache.jezebel.com/assets/resources/2007/11/theringtwo_big.jpg], a halberd-wielding nurse, a Jean-of-Arc-esque knight to a magic-hurling floating oracle and a Hulk-like beast.

It's also got a story...or rather, it's tied in to the story of the visual novel it's based off of: Fate/Stay Night. As such, the game is really aimed at either people who are already hardcore fighting game fans, or people who are fans of the Fate games already.

For the former, the game is heavily technical and muscle memory-based, and it goes out of its way to train the player to play like such (rewarding them when they do). For the latter, other than the story (out of curiosity, does the PSP version have the story translated?), it's got a ton of small shoutouts, like some of the minigames (Kotomine eating mabo tofu) and certain moves working differently in special circumstances (Gilgamesh's throw animation changes when he's fighting Saber, and Shirou's EX Super changes when he uses it against Kotomine).

On the other hand, it was kind of amusing to see Berserker described as a Hulk-like beast (Heracles does get like that sometimes, doesn't he?). I'm glad they kept the original VN's sound clips for his roaring.

 

[Woem]

Fate offers special missions that let you ease into the different characters. Missions go from defeating an enemy in a limited amount of time, to performing a specific combo to playing a mini-game. It has a very varried roster, ranging from a creepy girl that comes straight out of The Ring [http://cache.jezebel.com/assets/resources/2007/11/theringtwo_big.jpg], a halberd-wielding nurse, a Jean-of-Arc-esque knight to a magic-hurling floating oracle and a Hulk-like beast.

It's also got a story...or rather, it's tied in to the story of the visual novel it's based off of: Fate/Stay Night. As such, the game is really aimed at either people who are already hardcore fighting game fans, or people who are fans of the Fate games already.

For the former, the game is heavily technical and muscle memory-based, and it goes out of its way to train the player to play like such (rewarding them when they do). For the latter, other than the story (out of curiosity, does the PSP version have the story translated?), it's got a ton of small shoutouts, like some of the minigames (Kotomine eating mabo tofu) and certain moves working differently in special circumstances (Gilgamesh's throw animation changes when he's fighting Saber, and Shirou's EX Super changes when he uses it against Kotomine).

On the other hand, it was kind of amusing to see Berserker described as a Hulk-like beast (Heracles does get like that sometimes, doesn't he?). I'm glad they kept the original VN's sound clips for his roaring.

The text is translated as is some of the voice acting, but most of it is in the original language (which I prefer).

Cool, I didn't notice how some moves changed depending on the background story, awesome!

 

[Zersy]

I just want a pokemon game where I can just pick a pokemon and actually play as the pokemon and fight in realtime rather then having to tell him what to do and rely on numbers to win..

I long the day where I can press X to make Charzard use his fireblast...... then unleash some crazy combo....

 

[shemoanscazrex3]

The problem I have with fighting games is that I've grown into a solo player over the years. Fighting games don't have a story whatsoever. I still remember the story on one of the Capcom vs SNK games WTF?! If they had a story and more than just 8 lame fights, the end, I would probably buy SSFIV. Also the learning curve requires a lot. Playing against the CPU blech. You could do it on easy but working your way up will just frustrate the crap out of you. Then training mode is boring and just because you know the combos well you still have to know when to execute them. The difficulty isn't really my main gripe, if I were given a reason to play I would have a reason to get better. The last fighting games I excelled in were Marvel vs Capcom 2 and Virtua Fighter 4. I kinda went crazy with trying to collect everything. Plus with music games, peripherals, and normal controllers costing as much as games. I really don't want to buy an arcade stick too.

 

[Alan Au]

I think the article interprets the definition of "fighting game" too narrowly, and as a result it only looks at the competitive multiplayer titles. It isn't that fighting games lack story and accessibility, it's that they're no longer classified as "fighting games" once they incorporate those elements. Consider a game like Batman: Arkham Asylum, or really, any modern game with a significant melee-combat component; many incorporate combos, and counters, and throws, and other techniques traditionally associated with fighting games.

 

[F8L Fool]

When I read the title of this article, the very first franchise I thought of was Soulcalibur, followed by Street Fighter, then Mortal Kombat. The last fighter that blew my socks off is actually referenced in this article, and that's none other than SoulCalibur on Dreamcast. Everything else has really failed in comparison, and it's a shame. I think there just needs to be a new twist on the genre, otherwise it's just going to keep going downhill.

 

[sukotsuto]

I actually feel that fighting games barely made any progress in the last 20 years (aside from a few gimmicks on the combo/juggle/special move sstem), and it's only starting to really go towards the "realistic" path recently with UFC Undisputed... and the Japan only game "Garouden Breakblow : Fist or Twist" (which is still exaggerated, but awesome):

http://www.youtube.com/user/sukotsutoclone2?feature=mhw4#p/u

Seriously, ever since I played both those realistic martial arts fighting games, I've gotten sick with the typical ones that rely on ridiculous juggles and combos (Tekken, Street Fighter, Soul Calibur, Guilty Gear, Blazblue, Virtua Fighter, King of Fighters, Fatal Fury... yes I've played nearly all those games and their iterations of each). I guess it's because I personally do martial arts, and want it to be represented realistically in games from now on, seeing as we now have the technology to start doing so. Thankfully, UFC Undisputed 2010 and EA MMA is coming soon, and I'm looking forward to those.

 

[Dom Camus]

Well.. I dont know what to tell you there, I played it back then and I play it now, the moves are pretty much the same difficulty level

That just means you rawk! ;-)

Seriously - the frame data has been published. The improved ease of move execution is not somehow subjective.