259: Vaginophobia

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II2

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nipsen said:
Example: Obsidian's Kotor2, Troika's Bloodlines, Jane Jensen's Gabriel Knight, Adventure games of various kinds, Tim Schafer's games like Grim Fandango or Psychonauts. These games are excellent games, but the industry doesn't want games like that to be made in favour of adolescent fantasies.
I think it's more the "industry" (publishers and producers) don't think they can SELL as many of those kinds of titles vs Gears of War(etc).

WANT is the territory of dreamers, developers, consumers and fans. Most of the big decisions on what creative license gets issued is, ultimately, in the hands of the publishing companies and money men.
 

nipsen

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II2 said:
I think it's more the "industry" (publishers and producers) don't think they can SELL as many of those kinds of titles vs Gears of War(etc).
Or that they can't fit the titles into their existing advertisement schemes. Just like console mags can't write about anything else.

There was this curious string of articles about how difficult it was to label certain kinds of titles a while back. The premise was that "fps" and "shooter" was an eminently easy sell. But "puzzle" and "role-playing" was, oh, gruesomely difficult.

And that's the problem. "These titles" can't be sold in the same way as shooters. Or as adolescent male fantasies. They've even tried - Psychonauts was marketed as an arcade psycho power shooter, for example.

But why is advertisement tailored to that narrow audience so specifically? I mean, it's not just Microsoft that does this - where they are deliberately capitalizing on their fanatic fanbase. It's companies that actually have made a completely different product: they still sell these games as if they were adolescent fantasies.

It's a strange question, right? Makes no sense to market something on what it's not - until you read a console magazine, or hear anyone covering E3, who are arguing deliberately like this: "if most people like it, then I like it too". Where "most people" are the other bloggers and console fans who think exactly in the same way, and who are fans of the exact same type of game as them.

Because the truth is that it's never actually been tried to actually sell games differently. If you look at Heavy Rain, for example, I think anyone who actually followed what Sony did here will agree that it sold as well as it did - because it wasn't advertised for at all. I mean, I chatted with the producer about it - they had serious and dominating doubts about even trying to sell it as film-narrative and film-art translated to games. And.. of course they're right - because if you look at the console-magazines, they are uniformly trashing the game for not being anything special, and compare it to Mass Effect. That happened on the escapist as well.

So they were very skeptical when a lot of different people actually were really interested in that type of story-telling in games. Had the same skeptical attitude when Uncharted 2 came out, and it was even worse with Killzone 2.. So U2 was marketed as a popcorn movie - and that was the excuse that allowed anyone to market it as something that contained film-direction of any kind, as opposed to shooting and arcade murdering fun.

..but if you judged it all by the reaction in the console mags alone - then you really would see even that as a complete failure. Not because the game didn't actually have good direction, but because the ones who cover it - loudly and prominently, while dictating their own loud fans - just don't have any idea what to actually look for.

They're the kind of people who would review a movie like this: "great movie, liked it a lot, characters are dumb at times. 7/10".
 

Snownine

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Epoetker said:
Snownine said:
The reason why the vagina spike was more taboo than the neck tentacle has nothing to do with it's association with female genitalia but with genitalia period! You would be just as unlikely to come across an enemy that beats you to death with a massive spiked penis.
Does an enemy that IS a giant, tentacled, spiked penis count? [http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Stroper_%28Final_Fantasy_IX%29]
Holy Freudian nightmares Batman! I totally forgot about those things, and they are from one of my favorite games too!
 

Bullfrog1983

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"Why should a tentacle popping out of a woman's crotch be less acceptable than a tentacle popping out of a man's neck in Resident Evil 5?"

Because a person's head isn't a sex organ? I find one popping out of a woman's crotch more horrifying simply because seeing one pop out of a neck isn't scary. That being said, I have no opinion either way as to one being in a video game, but I'd say they should both be rated R or Mature or whatever. There are things that children shouldn't be exposed to, and I'd name Resident Evil games as one of them, just the same as a child shouldn't be exposed to pornos in their developing years (or at least until they are teenagers.)

"if you watch the Aliens series, the chances are whatever is horrible has to do with vaginas, pregnancy, childbirth, wet stuff. It's just all there."

The one really good rush I remember was at the dinner table. It was unexpected and scary as hell when I saw it. It does have to do with child birth I suppose, if you consider an alien being eating the hell out of your stomach and then bursting out of it as a part of the natural order.

I do not see the connection to vaginas though, unless they mean the Alien mouth with hundreds of teeth that are the color of blackest night. The kind of vagina that would eat your whole damn body if it could, that does scare me a bit I must admit.

"GTA IV contains misogynistic experiences while still being a sarcastic swipe at populist entertainment? Can it be that male gamers, while not completely defined by vaginophobia or femiphobia, still experience feelings of insecurity around women?"

Does a bear poke shit in the woods?

Also if a woman plays Grand Theft Auto I'm sure she will probably be running people over with cars, gunning down hookers and generally all of the bad things you do in those games. Analyzing the "do everything wrong" game that is the Grand Theft Auto series does not really seem like a valid arguement to me, nor does most of this article. This whole article does not really appear to be a good arguement simply because it only focuses on game of the year bullshit that is most likely decided by the dudes at various gaming websites.
 

Grey_Area

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Jun 26, 2008
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Issues. We all have them. I'm not going to discuss mine in this forum.

Slightly OT:

In relation to this article though, I have one abiding memory of a guy I worked with who exhibited serious mysoginistic flaws in his daily life, and came up with this statement about GTA III (this was a while ago). He said to me, "haven't you ever wanted to walk up to a prostitute, beat the sh!t out of her with a baseball bat and steal her money? This game is great!". I think he was actually serious too, at least, he wasn't really laughing.

My answer: No, not really. Not at all in fact.

I knew one escort personally (we flatted together, not as a customer) who got money for sex and loved it - no pimp, she workled for herself alone. Fair enough. But most street-workers are drug dependant, abused and under-privileged women who are beaten by their pimps for not working hard enough and refused access to anything like what most of us would consider to be a normal life. Why the hell would I want to assault women in this situation? (Even simulated - the fact that GTA III went for some form of realism means that there is a part of the brain considering this as an appropriate action). Point me in the direction of the men who pushed these women into this life instead, and then we'll see some violence.
 

webchameleon

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Jan 10, 2008
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Freud was a weird f*cker. He thought little children went through natural stages of incestuous lust for their fathers and mothers.
While there is merit to almost everything said here, I take issue with the questioning of why a tentacle coming out of a woman's crotch should be any worse than one coming out of a man's neck. The issue is that you, Mr. Thomsen, are an idiot not to recognize an extreme phallic symbol when a tentacle is slithering wildly out of anyone's groin--particularly in an article that examines video-game gender politics.
 

Influx27

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Michael Thomsen said:
"Rather, the problem is the psychological cost of developing a male identity in a culture that disparages the feminine and insists that the boundaries between the masculine and the feminine remain unambiguous and impermeable."
Exactly! We need to break down these boundaries. Because I enjoy dressing up in women's clothing, but I don't enjoy people calling the police when I go to the ladies room and pee while standing up. Because I don't appreciate the looks people give me when my 5 o'clock shadow starts poking through my rouge and matte finish. Because my boobs are just as good as my girlfriend's even if mine can't lactate.
 

LiquidGrape

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Epoetker lost any credibility he might've had when he chose "The Spearhead" for sources.
Honestly.

P.S
AND "Citizen Renegade"? Yowee.
D.S
 

Oskamunda

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Dec 26, 2008
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I'm sorry, this will be a long post; but my wife and I have both had this on our minds for a while, and this seems to be a good avenue to share it.

What we have to realize is that we live, in fact, in a rather misandrist culture. We have actually REGRESSED in that arena from misogyny to misandry. It's such a little-thought upon idea that even the spell-checker thought I was trying to type misanthropy. Look at all of the media commercials and sitcoms of the day...fat, balding, underpaid, ill-spoken-of and ill-speaking, uncoordinated, undersized [you know what I mean], wishy-washy pussies of men [or any combination of these traits and others] who happen, by some mystery, to enjoy the love of Mary Sue, who is obviously much too good for this schlub in any sense.

The only reason all of these statistics exist to be measured and all of these opinions are floating around to be heard is because, plainly, more women in more nations all over the world have more rights and comforts than they ever had in all of human history. The right to vote, the right to free speech, the right to work, the right to dress, the right to spend money, the right to choose who they marry...the list goes on and on. Naturally, this will cause dissension whenever a woman is depicted in ways "unbefitting" in pop culture, as it should. The debate should continue until peaceful resolution is achieved.

But...we have tipped the scales inadvertently the other way. We need to stop hating on our men, and stop hating on how they express themselves in Escapism through Fantasy, where they fulfill their base biological desires by objectifying men AND women both...not often do we hear of how impossible Kratos' form is to achieve without drugs that would desiccate his testicles, do we? No, we hear about how big [you know what I mean] he and Snow must be.

Seems like I'm going all over the place, but I'm really not; what I'm trying to illustrate is the existence of a double-standard. Very unpopular to hear, but not any less true. Women want to be accepted and recognized for their independence, but when men treat them as an individual who can take care of themselves [most women have no idea the amount of degradation, insults, and general abuse that occurs in male circles as the social equivalent of displaying their plumage, which requires that one show his plumage back; often called "locking horns"], they lash out at their oppressors, and decry for a return to chivalry...only to scream at its approach when it comes, saying, I Am Woman, I can take care of myself, who are you insinuate I need your financial security? Yet, this does not abate the tide of marriages of convenience, gold-digging, and the proliferation of divorce.

Through these and other techniques, men are objectified, as well...there is a reason that 9-inch dildos and larger are the highest-selling masturbation products on the market; not all of them are gag-gifts, and not by a long shot. Do women hear men saying, "All you want is a big, hard, steaming wang to punish you until you scream with delight, that's all we are to you!" No, men go out and research crazy ways to make their schlongs larger and harder, from pills to hormones to devices to surgery, and spend hundreds of millions of dollars on them, all so they can give what they believe to be a woman's fantasy to them in reality. Men now spend factors of their income on skin, facial, and hair products, along with clothing, baubles, and trinkets, to please women. Men traditionally spend two months income on an engagement ring for women, that they may compete with other women in the who-has-the-biggest-shiniest-rock-regardless-of-how-many-human-lives-it-cost contest...when you are fascinated by a rock that sparkles, you, also, are no better than prehistoric-man-with-club. Men, however, do hear women tell them all the time that they are just degrading them to their biological components, and that kind of hypocrisy isn't right.

The hard, brutal truth is this--and I know it will upset many men and women, but truth it remains: The world has long been the domain of men; ruling it, policing it, protecting it, trading amongst it, deciding for it. The push from the codependency/opression of women through suffrage to their independence and campaign for equal [or NOT equal, if you actually listen to some arguments] power and control has happened too quickly. The human body and brain cannot evolve beyond tens of thousands of years [only measuring from the time we developed culture, mind you, it took millions of years to evolve from our reptilian traits] of culture and biology in less than a hundred, or even a thousand.

What is the solution? Is it for women to lie down, taking whatever position their man requires? No. Is it for women to beat men into submission, taking control for themselves? No. The solution is that men need to act a little more like women, and women need to act a little more like men. Men, be more supportive and emotionally understanding...not of women only, but of all people; being a little more diplomatic might not hurt, either. Women, take a side and stick with it...either you can open the car door for yourself, or you think it would be noble of the man to do it; choose and stop vacillating!

Remember the age-old truth: Whenever two people in a room are telling the same story, the truth is never one or the other, it is always somewhere in the middle. The same principle applies here. Another good one to remember is Postel's Law, dictating the potential interactions between computers not running on the same [spoken or programming] language: Be liberal in what you allow, conservative in what you do. Sounds a bit like Christ, doesn't it? If everyone did that, by consciously making the choice to do so, against all Pavlovian response, then we would need neither to be liberal in what we allow nor conservative in what we do, the median would work itself out...and in relatively short order, too.

Disagree with what I've said? Think I'm hitting off of the mark? Well, then ponder this:

What would be the fallout if the response to "vaginaphobia" was a call to Vaginophilia? A series of literature and films, ranging from "The Idiot's Guide to the Female Genitalia, All of it's Working Parts, and How to Please It Satisfactorily Without Degrading It," to "Dr. Strangefist, or How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love the ****"?

Tell me it wouldn't be hypocritical.
 

JMeganSnow

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Isn't it somewhat ironic that you chose to describe "fear of WOMEN" as "Vaginophobia". Fear of *women* is gynephobia. Vaginophobia would be fear of vaginas. While the one possesses the other, the two are not interchangeable.

I wonder if the problem with anxieties about sexuality doesn't derive from the fact that we generally let members of the SAME sex inform our attitudes and standards for our sexual characteristics, leading to this spiral where the various anxieties of the involved parties feed off each other creating ludicrous and impossible standards.

For instance, if you read women's magazines (predominately written BY WOMEN and "effeminate" men) you could very easily come to the *incredibly* mistaken conclusion that if you're not some kind of super-model sex machine slathered in makeup and the latest fashions, no man could POSSIBLY be interested in you. I suspect that men have the same problem when most of what they guess about women is derived from the B.S. they hear out of *other men* who are no better-informed than they are.

Exploring unknown territory is always a bit scary. In most other situations, we can get a map, advice, a compass maybe. But how scary does it become when the map you've been given is wrong, the advice terrible, and your compass broken? Better to explore blind--and know you're doing it--than to trust guides of this kind. Unfortunately a lot of us don't have the time/opportunity to do everything ourselves, just like how we don't all go out and discover fire and agriculture for ourselves. We depend on transmission of knowledge for progress, so a lot of us wind up using the broken guides *even though we know they are broken* and trying to cobble together SOME kind of at least semi-functional result out of the mess.

Lastly, don't go thinking that this is a man's problem (or that the men are adolescent). Women have just as many absurdly mistaken ideas and anxieties about sexuality as men. I'd suspect that the #1 most common one is the idea that the whole issue is somehow the MEN'S fault and their responsibility to fix. Women need to take the responsibility to do their share of the exploring and communicating. We may think we're not "adolescent" because we're (maybe) more in touch with our own feelings/desires--but we SUCK at communicating both of them in any constructive manner, which is no mature attitude either. You could very well translate the perpetual female demand for "sensitive" guys into "I want someone to read my mind and give me what I want without me ever having to say anything."

Men may have ingrained anxiety, but women have ingrained silence that often erupts into less-than-helpful vituperation. So let's all admit that nobody's got a good map and set out to make a new one as best we can.
 

blankedboy

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Umm... that statistic is only true if FarmVille counts as a game. Seriously, I can guarentee that number would reduce at least fourfold if you de-classified FarmVille as a game.
 

Cat Cloud

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Aug 12, 2010
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Men do seem to be scared silly about being portrayed in any way that could suggest they are slightly feminine. Girls are more likely to be ( or claim to be) bi in my school, since if a guy even vaguely hints that he is interested in other guys he is shunned and some how girly. They are also insecure about playing sports with girls. In PE if a girl starts to beat a guy she's either an exception to most girls or they give up and don't take the game seriously.

Videogame-wise, I don't consider guys who only play sports games or Gitarre Hero/Rock Band to be gamers. It's like farmville for boys. I say the same for guys who only play Halo/Call of Duty or just "manly"(read:childish) shooters. I can't talk with any guy in my grade about games since they only recognize Halo and Call of Duty as "real games." In my mind, a gamer plays more than one type of game or at least can respect other types of games.

There is the perception that girls hate games because they're girls and don't like "manly" things. BS. The main reason is that they only see obnoxious boys sitting around their parent's basement boasting about killing imaginary people.
Many boys who play games are introduced through shooters, sports games, or fighting games (from what I've seen/heard). All the girls I know who are gamers have been introduced through RPG's (not neccisarily JRPGs) or action/adventure/exploration games. Or Pokemon. Video games can appeal to girls, just not always in the same way as guys.

Also: for a previous poster (don't know/care which post), don't assume girls are attracted to overly buff men. Sure, it's nice if they are some what muscular, but there is a limit. If I remember correctly, the whole overly buff thing actually is aimed more at men than women, implying that the character/ person is more manly than you. If you are the character, you can be caught up in the fantasy and imagine yourself more manly.

Good article, although it seems it has mostly fallen an deaf ears. Video games are for escaping and fantisizing and those who make said games are guys who are making games for what they see as a male audience. If you read and analyze romance novels (the ones with the racy covers) or Twilight that are made to be an escape for women, you can find issues women have with their sexuality and men. The main difference is that videogames are a medium and romance novels are a genre.
 

Disthron

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Awesome article, with some very interesting links mixed in. I tried to find a video for the Rant you talked about but unfortunately couldn't find one. Not exactly sure what the general public could do about the situation but at least now I'm thinking about it. Also, I haven't played many of the games you talked about in the article.