265: The Fallacy of the Fanboy

[Matt Meyers]

The Fallacy of the Fanboy

When a fanboy enters any conversation about videogames, all relevance and meaningful discourse stops. Matt Meyers posits that we should all stop acting like fanboys when we are trolled by Jack Thompson or Roger Ebert.

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[Aedes]

Marvellous read. Is that the word? I hope it is.

Anyway, I agree with most of it. Our fights against someone who doesn't know what he's discussing is most of the time a waste of our own time. And what do we "win" at the end?

I still believe our major victory will come when the conservative people of today will perish and only the ones who grew up with the game ideology on their lives will continue to build this world of ours. Time conquers all. Our time will come.

 

[Loonerinoes]

Good article, but herein lies the reason why I agree with Holkins on his stance.

You can NOT change people's minds over the internet in 90% of all cases. Full stop.

Why? Because most people like their egoes too much and of what they believe is to be right...to be right.

Holkins knew, right away, that Ebert would never even begin to consider picking up a controller and actually giving it a try before talking about it. It is true, he later admitted with humility, that he should really not have spoken about games at all given his lack of experience, but he reasserted that he would never even give it a chance to change his opinion either in the very same statement.

What Holkins said was that this kind of assertiveness over the internet does not work in almost any instance. Because most people who get drawn into forum arguments are people who like to imagine, that their opinions actually matter! Hence the only satisfaction they have is derived from arguing their point, not conceding it and you know...actually change their point of view, as you have said.

The only way to convince people in our position would be indeed through having them experience it IRL. But that won't happen over the internet, ever. Only if you were to meet them in person would this become possible.

That's why I really agree with Holkins more. It's pointless and not worth the effort to try to change things over the internet. However, it is not so pointless to try and change them IRL - that is another matter entirely.

 

[LadyRhian]

Honestly, I doubt it is possible to change the mind of someone who is so mis-informed about gaming. Most of those who complain and whinge about gaming did not come to that position through information. They formulated it out of fear or a knee-jerk antipathy. And you cannot reason someone out of a position they did not arrive at by reason. Especially not if they get something out of holding that position. Not necessarily money, position or power- although all of that certainly counts. More like a stroke to their ego or emotional satisfaction of "holding back the hordes".

 

[ike42]

The worst Fanboys have to be the Apple iBots. I must have Steve Jobs' lies and catch phrases parroted back to me 8 times a day.

 

[Super Jamz]

Great article, couldn't agree more.

Proper debates actually consist of each side calmly backing up their points thoroughly and showing that their point of view is correct, rather than insulting the opposition.

The aforementioned 'debates' are more akin to flame wars than anything else.

However that said, usually it proves to be somewhat pointless effort to post a well researched argument on the internet, so in some sense it's understandable that they usually degrade into fanboy rage threads.

 

[KEM10]

I love that you linked to that Cracked article. The section of gimmicks and frame rates was my major defense on the side of Ebert.

 

[tehroc]

Only problem is the general fandom of gaming. Everyone on this site slammed Ebert for his comments yet most of the things he said were true (except the absolutes) without ever considering his opinion as valid. This mood is sensed even in the article, you dismiss any criticism to gaming, thusly slamming Ebert in a fanboy stance.

 

[JEBWrench]

Only problem is the general fandom of gaming. Everyone on this site slammed Ebert for his comments yet most of the things he said were true (except the absolutes) without ever considering his opinion as valid. This mood is sensed even in the article, you dismiss any criticism to gaming, thusly slamming Ebert in a fanboy stance.

Exactly this. This whole article was a fanboy rant expounded to two pages.

 

[Ashendarei]

Excellent read,

although it did come off as a tad optimistic for my tastes, I can still see the message that the author is trying to pass off to us. It's a laudable goal, and one well worth working for.

That being said I tend to follow the school of thought brought up by Loonerinoes and LadyRhian, in that it's unlikely that we'll be able to actually change other peoples' minds about gaming, especially if they do draw comfort / security in their beliefs.

That however doesn't negate the importance of trying.

 

[gamegod25]

Personally I'm tired of arguing and debating. People like Jack and Ebert don't get videogames and likely never will. And no amount of discussion, facts, figures, etc. will change that. By no means am I saying that we should leave these critics unchallenged, but we can't expect them to be persuaded to our side. The ones most vocal against games (Jack, politicians, the news, etc.) aren't interested in an open discussion.

 

[Kevlar Eater]

Getting people like Jack Thompson to play a few decent games and admit he's wrong about his anti-gaming views is like trying to subvert a devout Catholic nun to atheism: the tasks of both are wishful thinking at best, and both are so stuck in their ways that teaching them anything that doesn't revolve around their views borderlines on impossibility and possibly hostility. Oh, and arguing our points with people like him and Ebert is wasting both our time.

I'm thinking of Green Eggs and Ham, but without the happy ending with the other dude actually giving the food a try.

 

[CitySquirrel]

You can NOT change people's minds over the internet in 90% of all cases. Full stop.

Zigactly. The amount of energy it takes far outweighs the benefit you could hope from any end result. We should spend that energy making gaming a more open and welcoming experience for those who are curious.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

I don't think that the fanboy is a fallacy. It's a term usually used in a negative way to describe someone, normally a young adult male, who shows great passion and knowledge about something they grew obsessed with as a child like comic books, Star Wars or video games and most importantly doesn't show much emotional maturity or knowledge in other areas. Someone who is just a fan has the passion and knowledge but is also able to distance themselves from the subject thanks to having a little more wisdom and knowledge gained from other sources.

It's not a polite term and is rudely used in inappropriate ways. I don't think that having "fanboys" take hold of the debate and act in a way that influences the ways that games are heading is an especially healthy thing. They argue mostly for things that exclude new or younger fans and lock the developers into creating very conservative content. Things that satisfy their urge to see the same few favourite things over and over again but in ways that are less accessible to outsiders.

The thing about some defences of games is that they show both key characteristics of fanboyism. The unbridled passion is off the chart. Games have to be good for children because they defined my childhood. Games have to be art because I care about them so much and being art is a good thing, right? The defences lack the wisdom of knowing when to pick fights and respecting boundaries. They often lack real knowledge about, for example, what art means to different people and how little or how much being classed as art actually means.

 

[GoGo_Boy]

Didn't read the full article but I just wanna mention that haters are fore worse.
I think some fanboys are in fact really fans of something because it IS good. That often results in a deeper view upon say their favorite game. They really often know a lot more about it than other people which is why they gotta defend it. (Though this depends of course how you define fanboys and fans.)


Haters on the other site do not have any clue of something. No sources, no facts just hate for some reason such as popularity. There's no point in arguing with such people.

 

[Plinglebob]

I have 2 big problems with fanboys.

The first is that they are doing everything they can to get gaming accepted as an artform long before it should be. Not necessarily because there arn't any games that could be considered as art, but because of the speed the public concousness works. If you look at film, the 1st moving pictures were taken in the 1890s, but it wasn't really accepted generally for at least 40 years until the 30's and it took even longer for it to be accepted as an art. Even then, there were still people against certain areas (specifically the more graphic) right up until the 80s. Gaming started off in the late 70's with it really hitting the public conciousness in the 80's. If you complare it with film, games are still trying to get socially accepted (give it 10 years) while at the same time fighting the censorship and decency battles film didn't have to face until it was established.

My second problem is (and I'm gonna get so much crap for this) is that the people who argue on the side of games are adults arguing for the defence of a childhood hobby they don't want to give up. The best analogy I can come up with are adults who build things out of Lego. While I accept that the things some people make out of Lego are fantastic, it doesn't distract from the fact that they are still essentially playing with a childrens toy and if someone came up to you are agrgued that Lego isn't a toy but an art, the majority of gamers would probably think they're nuts. However, this is how the mainstream sees adult gamers. We picked up a hobby when were kids and now we're adults, we are demanding people take what we do seriously. Remember, the public don't see any diffeence between Mario, Civilisation and Modern Warfare 2. They are all seen as things played primarily by Children and Teenagers and any adult who also plays them is sad because they can't let go of their childhood.

What Fanboys and Gamers need is patience. Personally, I have no problem admitting I'm a gamer and that I have a damn sight more fun playing "Kids" games like Pokemon or Mario then I do playing the more "Adult" games like CoD. Eventually gaming will be accepted by public conciousness like film was and will almost certainly be seen as an artform in time, but it's not going to happen overnight.

 

[MGlBlaze]

This article was farily enlightening, actually. I will admit myself that I had some... harsh reactions to certain individuals. I really should have tried to be more intellectual about it.

That said, there are some fundamental problems. While some people's opinions can be changed, others sit in their little ego-bubble and shut out everything that doesn't agree with them.

Personally I'm tired of arguing and debating. People like Jack and Ebert don't get videogames and likely never will. And no amount of discussion, facts, figures, etc. will change that. By no means am I saying that we should leave these critics unchallenged, but we can't expect them to be persuaded to our side. The ones most vocal against games (Jack, politicians, the news, etc.) aren't interested in an open discussion.

I remember reading, for example, that even mentioning that you were a Gamer to Jack in any attempt to debate what he was saying was all the ammo he needed to brand you a potential murderer and pay no attention to anything else you might have had to say. I may be taking that a little far, but that was pretty much it.

It might be easier to convince these people if there were more accessible games out there. I think this was outlined before, but pretty much every game around is much harder than we think it is. Even the newer Mario games; if you haven't played any games before, Super Mario Galaxy 2 could be an utterly punishing experience and turn you off the idea altogether. Yahtzee mentioned the only one around right now was really Little Big Planet. This really needs to change, honestly. Put a REAL 'easy' option in games; let the "hardcore" ***** and complain all they want (*cough* like what happened with Megaman 10 *cough*), at the end of the day they can still pick higher difficulties.

Anyway, steering it back on topic, I think everyone could benefit if intellectual discussions were held rather than the usual call-caps flame wars thinks have a habit of descending to on the Internet.

 

[DTWolfwood]

The small number of posts on this article is proof enough that Denial is not just a river in Egypt XD

Apt points, its really too bad that while there are more adults gaming than there are teens and preteens now, the most vocal population of gamers are still teenagers. Like i once was (and on occasion still am), fanboyism is quite the horse blind to look beyond.

Speaking out to them only works when those you speak to are willing to listen. Ebert and Thompson, i'm almost certain at this point (from the barrage of nerd rage and death threats) will no longer even entertain the notion of hearing what a gamer has to say. So it works both ways. We need to speak out more and not let the teenage fanboys voice be louder than the rest of us!

good analogy is trying to explain Darwinism to a religious zealot. you'll get no where fast. Then again the same is probably true vice versa (still pondering y Fundamentalist Christians have so much hate for ppl who don't believe in god or believe in their god. For a religion based on forgiveness, love and peace they sure are an angry lot)

 

[Cosplay Horatio]

I for one think fanboys really need to calm down when anything negative is said about what they love. If they love it so much they should defend it but the way it's being defended is wrong. For example I have here a video of my friend from Gemakei reviewing Kingdom Hearts: Birth by Sleep at this years E3. I think Yahtzee would be proud of him but the focus is the comments he's getting from fanboys who defend the game when Gemakei shows in this review....well I should just let you watch it and of course watch it on Youtube to see the comments he received.