279: Wussy RPG Girls

Rocketboy13

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I never liked these characters! And I still do not see the appeal.
Okay, martyrdom for the sake of a loved one, a nation, an ideal is a very noble act, but is so out of place in a world like the Cyber-Fantastic "Tales" and "FF". The characters are slaves to 'destiny', good god just look at "FF-10" and seem so unable to deal with it that they don't even make the most of what life they are given, they don't fight back against it. It comes off as more pathetic than selfless.

Christ was dignified in the myth!
 

cj_iwakura

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This article focuses on the bad, and makes no mention of the good.

You mention Wild Arms 4, but not Wild Arms 3's Virginia, a strong woman who perfectly stands on her own.

Digital Devil Saga's Argilla devours her enemies whole. Angel from the same series is downright vicious.

Persona 2 had a slew of female protagonists who didn't need any male protagonists to save them.

Suikoden III's Chris Lightfellow is as brave and unwavering as female protagonists get. The article subject matter is an unfortunate trope, but there ARE exceptions, and they deserve equal mention.
 

vortexgods

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tklivory said:
*Wall o' Text Incoming!*

Oooooh, one of my hot-button topics. (I apologize in advance to the author of the article)

SHORT VERSION:

My biggest disappointments in the article were as follows:
1) The disingenuous manner of accusing JRPGs of having poor role models for women and ignoring similar poor role models in western RPGs
2) Cherry-picking a few characters to match her thesis and ignoring the wealth of characters that don't support it
3) Trying to make it sound as if certain common character types (i.e., making a character have low self-esteem about herself) are somehow culturally 'Japanese' and not what they are: common writing techniques used by all writers in all cultures
4) Assuming that the characterization of women has gotten better because "modern women demanded it" (nah, that's too long to go into, let's just say i really disagreed with that part of her article)
Putting the Long version in Spoiler tags... because it is long, but not really a spoiler
LONG VERSION:

I must say I can pretty much disagree with most everything in the article. "In Japan...women were seen as inherently fragile and their 'heroism' was defined by their maidenly virtue..." Citation, please! I'm sorry, is this author talking about the Japan that exists in our world? Or is she talking about Europe? Or is she, in fact, talking about the Japan that Westerners think they know about but, in fact, don't have a clue about. For example, in the Tokugawa period, is she talking about samurai? Ainu? Peasants? Merchants? Imperial? Courtesan? Each strata of Japanese society had different expectations of their women, and absolutely NO class of women in Japan (in any era) were ever expected to let their "heroism" rest solely on their 'maidenly virtue'.

Also, her reference to the Onna Daigaku - really? One could make the same argument about the Bible being a guidebook for proper womanly behavior for the same time period in Europe, but historical study shows that although many people wrote about the Bible as an guide for proper behavior, the vast majority of the society didn't actually hold women to that ideal save through lip service. You'd think she only knows about Japanese culture from one or two books and not from actual historical study... If that's the case, then I challenge you to think about this: how accurate are Disney movies and Looney Tunes at portraying gender roles in the West? If you only read Shakespeare, what would your expectation be of women in Renaissance Padua? If you only read historical romance novels, how would you describe a typical woman of 19th century England? Did all women in the middle of the twentieth century really live and die by the Emily Post guide to etiquette?

As for her comments directly relating to video games: these are all things that Western women raised to believe in the Modern Feminist myth *want* to hear, because it feeds into what they've been told their entire lives. (Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the Feminist movement. After all, I wouldn't be able to do what I do in my job right now if it weren't for the feminist movement in the last century.) As other people have pointed out, there have been PLENTY of strong women characters in JRPGs. In fact, in the game that the picture for the article comes (Shadow Hearts) from are *at least* two strong women characters: the French spy Margerete and the Japanese Lieutenant Colonel Kawashima. They are both strong women who have a no-nonsense attitude and a female nature - Margarete is a shameless flirt, and Kawashima is a love interest of one of the other NPCs. Also, what does the titular 'Wussy RPG girl' Alice do, after seeing her 'defender' Yuri disappear in a horrible catastrophe? She spends the next six months on her own, making her own way, fighting her own fights, while searching for him. Does she have help? Sure, as a game mechanic. But the story clearly shows her in control of the party. Does she fall into a subordinate role when her man reappears? Sure, also as a gaming mechanic. (And I haven't even addressed Koudelka, the woman who drives the main characters along their path throughout the majority of the story...)

And that's just the characters from the game she happens to mention. I could go on and on. (For example, the second game in the Shadow Hearts series has one of my favorite female characters in any JRPG, Karin, who starts out as a soldier in an army in WWII.) Others have already mentioned many characters, so I won't. :)

Now, as a woman myself, I notice gender roles in games/books/movies/commercials, and I see bias all over the place. For instance, if you really stop and watch modern-day TV, the worst negative stereotypes on TV (shows or commercials) are always against men, not women. Our society is just inured to it. Also, if you're going to complain about 'Wussy RPG girls', have enough intellectual honesty to admit that it goes both ways (male/female) and across all cultures of the developers (Japanese, Korean, American, European). Just because Mass Effect allows you to play male or female, don't think that represents equality of the sexes - it just means that the character is essentially gender neutral. (And, for the record, I think both God of War and Gears of War portray far more damaging sexual stereotyping of men than anything I've seen women 'subjected' to in the typical JRPG.) Anyone who thinks that Neo is a better character than Aerith, BTW, needs to pay more attention to symbolism, since they do exactly the same thing. :)

However, this article is inaccurate at best, relying on Western stereotypes of other cultures at worst. She makes the common mistake most Westerners do, that a sexist society MUST be a bad society, as if gender division of roles is inherently teh ebilist ebil [sic] of them all. As for wondering why these stereotypes still exist 300 years later... Ummm, I'm sorry, what version of the Western World does she live in where those exact same stereotypes are not used all the time in our own literature and media? Although that subject too big for discussion, the short answer: it ain't just Japan, baby. These stereotypes persist because of a mix of societal acceptaince, marketability, and smidgeons of truth thrown in here and there. In Japan, in the United States, in Europe: everywhere.

Ahem. Sorry to the few of you who actually read this. Had to get it out.
/rant
Well, don't be sorry. There's a very shallow, middle school understanding of identity politics here at the Escapist, both in the article and in the comments.

The thing is, Americans may buy Japanese stuff, but they are still often racist against Asians, and love to play, "I'm so superior to you." Even when evidence of such superiority is very sadly lacking.
 

SpaceMedarotterX

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I agree, I've always despised the females who I had to rescue, I don't mind if your afraid or emotionally distraut about the game. or if physically you aren't as strong as one of your male counterparts. but lets look at Fire Emblem, the 'stand out' for 'I need to be rescued' was Nininan in FE7, until that game any damsal in distress character was oft derived of weapons or was fleeing from a giant army.

Let's look at Yggdra Union where the Titular Yggdra and her thief ally Milanor are both equal as warriors and while Yggdra does eventually get captured, she got captured specifically BECAUSE someone tougher descended from on high to trap her.

and again I don't hate the waif and mysterious girl, Sheba was that in Golden Sun the Lost Age, she spent a total of BEFORE JOINING THE PARTY being shipped around between countries, and once she does join she refuses to sit on the side lines, in fact it's her power that pushes the game along.

I overall agree that the 'waifu' character, that the male player is supposed to fall in love with and have a desire to rescue needs to go. Not only from a narrative stand point (and boy am I big on narrative) but from a gameplay stand point.

Don't make me devote time and resources to raising this party member, giving her weapons, grinding her skills, AND THEN TAKING HER AWAY FROM ME!

It's weird when I can say a HAREM game like Sakura Taisen can get "Strong females" right when other games can't. And in ST the 'strong girls' like Kanna, aren't raging bitches who punch people because 'Hurr I'm angry and unfeminine" Kanna kicks sharks and swims from Osaka to Japan because she's INSANE and good natured, she doesn't understand that Ichiro (the PC) is poor and frail.

Think that's an over exaggeration? during the 'mid season upgrade' part of the game, everyone went off to do training, Kanna's training was punching bears to death.

And she is entirely good natured and extremely kind.

How does she relate to this article? the cast of Sakura Taisen are actors on stage in the 1920's. which means they do act out a lot of stories (like Journey to the West)

[http://img35.imageshack.us/i/atkanna0020.jpg/]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us [http://imageshack.us]
 

Sonofadiddly

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Although I agree with you about Lightning from FF XIII, I still say the times when she punched Snow in the face were the best parts of the game. Seriously, it kept me going through those endless linear corridors. "If I just make it to the next cut scene, Lightning might punch Snow again."

My disappointment in some Final Fantasy games is partially caused by the worthlessness of their heroines. I remain convinced that VII has the best story by far, in part because of the characters. Although Tifa has ridiculous boobies, she still kicked ass pretty hard, and like that chick mentioned in the article from the game I didn't play, she rescued Cloud from his crazy split-personality whatever was going on there. Aeris was more the sacrifice type. I didn't like her as much, but you have to admire someone who will take one for the team (right through the gallbladder). Yuffie was annoying.

By the time I played VIII, I was going through an ultra-feminist phase, and I hated Rinoa for how useless she was, even if in some ways she was portrayed as strong. That didn't really pan out, and by the millionth time I had to rescue her ass, I just wanted her to die. Garnet from IX was even worse. Yuna was better, although she had the whiney low self-esteem thing going, and that part where she married Seymore was just weird and dumb. Dumb and weird. The girls in XII were pretty awesome, even if they were rather boring. At least they were normal human beings who weren't lame or annoying in any way. They went a bit backwards (and nuts) with XIII, considering the role of Serah. And can someone explain Vanille to me? What the hell were they thinking? Fang seemed cool, but they didn't really bother to build her character more than the minimum amount. The only thing that made her interesting was the lesbian vibe they threw in there. But hey, at least there's that. When did this become a rant about FF XIII?

Anyway, strong female characters are still important to me, which is why I tend to stay away from JRPGs. I swear I only keep playing Final Fantasy games out of some desperate hope that they'll pull out something as cool at VII again.
 

ArkhamJester

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gallaetha_matt said:
Wait, wait, wait - Eileen Stahl? 'Raptor Red' from Something Awful? If so, that's awesome. One of the funniest writers Something Awful had (next to Zack Parsons and Bobservo) that didn't have to mention 'piles and piles of dogs!' to get laughs.

This was an interesting article either way. I always like reading about gender politics in the creative mediums (assuming your imagination is tweaked enough to refer to the stereotypical JRPG as creative), it always helps me so I know what to avoid when writing female characters of my own.

A lot of the female characters that I create tend to go more the 'Lightning' route described here. Thoughtlessly cruel and often violent, the sort of women that'd watch a child get kicked to death and the only emotion it'd arouse would be hunger.

I should stop basing female characters on my ex-girlfriends, basically.

Part of the reason I don't play JRPG's anymore is because of all the irritating characters,'Princess Types' included that hang around in them. The last one I played was Final Fantasy 9, the characters in that game annoyed me so much that I couldn't get more than half way.

It isn't just the female characters that annoy me either. The boringly stoic male leads (hmmph... whatever) and bizarrely fetishistic animal characters (who here actually liked Cait Sith? Anyone?) and the constant badgering from the token 9 year old child that runs around acting like they know it all (I really wanted to watch EIko from Final Fantasy 9 get fed into a mincer and then set on fire. That probably isn't healthy).

Which is another thing I don't get. Why does every JRPG have to use teenagers and children as either their main characters or as party members? Children are useless in a fight, and I should know.

For me - JRPG's have been kind of stagnating in medieval Japanese culture for a long time and it's starting to look rather sad on their part. I'd welcome any recommendations for JRPG's that break the mould, but I've been let down before. I'd need to see a total overhaul before I'd even consider playing another JRPG game.
Shin Megami Tensei Strange Journey. Your a trained, fully grown soldier working with other (male and female) fully grown soldiers in a dungeon crawler RPG. (seriously no one under the age of 24 is in that game)
 

The Cheezy One

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Dec 13, 2008
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The Random One said:
Huh. I'd forgotten about most of that, and never even noticed the stats thing. All I remembered about her was that she managed to lead her own rebellion group. In retrospect, the people in the group were the kind of people that would do anyhing a ditzy girl like Rinoa would ask.
Oh, and I'm pretty sure she wasn't a princess, that was just her incredibly cliched code name as leader of the- you know, I'm going to stop now, because this is actually one of the worst examples I've ever heard
FF8 is still one of my favourites though, although apparantely as long as I don't play it again.
 

ArkhamJester

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I believe that the best way to write a female character is to simply put, just treat them as another characer, not T and A, not the infinite feminist movement leader, not as a damsel in distress, simply write for them as you would a man and aside from some new chest hair they should be fine.
 

cj_iwakura

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I like that somehow people think female protagonists treated as T&A quotient is exclusive to Eastern RPGs.
 

omegawyrm

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tklivory said:
/applause

Excellent refutation of the internal contradiction inherent in the article's thesis. I wish I wasn't so innately emotional about the issue of JRPGs and female characters in general that I might be able to express such an eloquent argument.


And everyone else, do you not realize how ridiculous you sound talking about how little Japan has progressed in womens' rights like you've lived there for a decade or do you honestly think you're part of the master race?
 

cj_iwakura

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This article tries too hard to be sensationalist. It's so narrow minded it's almost judgmental.
 

pigmy wurm

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Sir John the Net Knight said:
Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
I feel this is probably a reference that I was supposed to get, but sadly has sailed over my head.

Seriously, I have no idea what the hell you're getting at here... I'm not sure whether it's that you're randomly flopping about without making a point, or that your grammar is so horrendous that I can't make heads or tails of this. The only thing I could maybe decipher is that you're regurgitating the myth that FFVII was the downfall of JRPGs. (Hardly true, it was the pinnacle of the genre.) Yet you don't seem to be doing anything to back that statement up, you just offer one sentence descriptions of Final Fantasy and Chrono Trigger characters that don't offer anything substantial.

Seriously, I think I felt my brain ooze from my ear a little bit.
First I never said that FFVII or any of the latter games were bad, my point was just that an assumption in the article, that the depictions of female characters were at their worst in the SNES and early PS years, was false. I feel that as the Final Fantasy series has progressed past FFVII it has had, at least in my opinion, fewer strong female characters and an increasing number of female characters who seem weak and fall into the "Princess Type" disused in this article has increased. And if you read it again you will see that I said the problem starts to get bad after FFVII, meaning that I have no real issues with the depiction of women in the game. Yeah Aris is very feminine and fragile, but it worked within the games story and she was balanced out by Tifa and to a lesser extent Yuffi.

And my feelings on FF7 are entirely my own. It is a good game, it isn't my favorite RPG, but it's still good. I do think it is overrated and hardcore fans of it tend to overlook some pretty obvious flaws, but lack of perfection doesn't make it bad. But what I really think about FF7 was that it was a game-changer, it marked the end of an era and the beginning of a new one, and since then JRPG's just haven't appealed as much to me. Their are still JRPGs that I like, I really liked FFIX and Beaten Kaos and enjoyed Tails of Symphonia and some other games, but over all the new ones don't interest me as much as the older ones. And me not liking the games as much is not why I was disparaging of their depiction of women. You could say, however, that their depiction of women, and the changing character types found in most recent JRPG's is one of the factors as to why I'm not as excited for newer JRPG's.

I think one of the core issues is I feel that with all of the technical improvements in games it should be so much easier to create a really life like and three dimensional character and have that character develop organically, but generally the characters I see are no more developed, and in some cases less so, than there 16 bit counter parts. It's like people saw FFVII as the ultimate example of video game storytelling instead of just an important step in the right direction.
 

Reverend Del

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Using Yuna as an example of a strong woman is kinda off, She gets kidnapped by Al Behd twice and has to be saved by the party both times. She spends most of the game apologising for things beyond her control (which covers almost everything in the game.) From Bevelle onward she starts to get better, yes she fluffs the sending, but it's something she does off her own back and doesn't need the party to come thundering to her rescue, she has an exit strategy. In fact they probably contributed to her fluffing the sending. She does, however, have the most believable about face ever in a JRPG, or indeed anywhere. Rather than simply No, U. She hears what she's expected to do and thinks before finally saying "Actually, no, there must be a better way, so fuck you, I'm off to find it." By the end of the game she becomes a stronger female character, far and away better than Lightning's Man with Boobs persona. But there is no way in hell she starts off as anything other than the Princess. And as one person also stated, so does Tidus. Pair of angsty whining bitches the both of them. And yet, despite this, I still enjoy FFX, it's one of my more favoured FF games. Sue me.
 

Valencrow

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Great article but I'd like to disagree with you using Atoli from the .hack series as an example. While it is true that she fits almost all of the criteria of the helpless RPG girl it should also be noted that it is a far more realistic take on it that any other RPG I have played.

To start with the main character finds her annoying as hell and mostly is just using her for her heals. Secondly her one big scream moment was also the moment when she realized she was in actual real danger as opposed to playing an online game.Fully half of the male readers right now would scream an octave higher if they suddenly found out their WOW character getting ganked might put them in a coma.
She isn't kidnapped by the villain so much as brainwashed over a long period of time ( way before the game even begins) into seeing him as the best thing ever. Lastly once said jerk is giving a good pounding she buckles down and wile still a little flighty serves as a stable member of the cast for the end half of the game.

Given the setting of the .Hack series I think Atoli was a rather realistic interpretation of someone who likes graphically impressive games but ultimately abhors violence.
 

xengk

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SpaceMedarotterX said:
It's weird when I can say a HAREM game like Sakura Taisen can get "Strong females" right when other games can't. And in ST the 'strong girls' like Kanna, aren't raging bitches who punch people because 'Hurr I'm angry and unfeminine" Kanna kicks sharks and swims from Osaka to Japan because she's INSANE and good natured, she doesn't understand that Ichiro (the PC) is poor and frail.

Think that's an over exaggeration? during the 'mid season upgrade' part of the game, everyone went off to do training, Kanna's training was punching bears to death.

And she is entirely good natured and extremely kind.

How does she relate to this article? the cast of Sakura Taisen are actors on stage in the 1920's. which means they do act out a lot of stories (like Journey to the West)
A fellow Sakura Taisen fan!
Not to forget Maria Tachibana (Russian revolution veteran, exotic and cold as her country) and Reni Milchstrabe (Expressionless miracle child from German eugenic program) from Sakura Wars 2, also Lobelia Carlini(Wanted criminal with over 1000 year jail sentence), Glycine Bleumer(Prideful noble of Viking decedent) and Coquelicot(Tomboy circus orphan from Vietnam) from Sakura Taisen 3.
Sagiitta Weinberg(African-American leader of a Harlem biker gang) from Sakura Taisen 5 too is good but extreme example.

Let's not forget that game often take ques from story and TV drama Archetype/Stereotype. These archetype exist that so the viewer or player can quickly identify the character's role in the story and personality.
These archetype apply to both male and female characters.

The Female Personality of 3 generally applies to many form of story from Japan.
1) Older= mature, sexy, mysterious
2) Same age= helpful, childhood/good friend
3) Younger= innocent, curiosity,

The same reason why anime use different color for hair to relate to personality; ie: pink=innocent, red=tomboy, blue=mature, green=good nature, blond=exotic/outgoing(interesting color to choose isn't?).

By combining the 2 above you can create a large group of characters.
ie:
Older women with green hair= sexy next door good nature or motherly wife.
Same age with blond hair= childhood friend returning from oversea.
Young with blue hair= that creepy child that follows the main character everywhere.
Older man with purple hair= mature and mysterious and equally untrustworthy.
Same age with green hair= smiley faced funny classmate that is the butt of jokes.
Younger with red hair= that hyperactive kid with a tan and band-aid.

Hair style too plays a role in identifying character personally.

Yes, I am quite the weeboo and I live in the region as Japan.
 

s0p0g

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well, what to say about the article?
yes, yes, yes, a thousand times: yes

these helpless, sorry-i-forgot-my-self-esteem-at-home, who cannot do anything besides sobbing, crying and being absolutely powerless, and maybe calling the hero's name in dangerous situations, are the very reason i do not like jrpgs that much.