279: Wussy RPG Girls

[Sinspiration]

Are they still banging on about this? XD
Archetypes become archetypes because they're a type of character you can come to expect. It just seems like a very complicated and long winded angst at, yes, wussy rpg girls, but face it, they've been around a lot longer than most people alive today.

Its like looking at the Eiffel Tower and complaining that its a tall metallic pointy thing in Paris. And no matter how much some-one complains, no-ones ever going to tear it down by writing an article.

Personally I love this character type, not because she's meek and submissive and often the target for all the bad happenings, but because when something happens to the character I feel genuinely upset and hope to high heavens that by the end of it I can save them. But it certainly cant hurt to have another lady in the party hellbent on busting some heads to help you succeed, while enjoying it all the more.

This is a feeling I cant get from such things as Oblivion or Fallout where the characters are a lot more bland and one-dimensional, add to that a lot of western-made games. I wont argue that there's no difference in sexes but I will argue that there is a difference in people, just so happens in JRPG's we get treated to girls nicer than the ones we have to deal with IRL today.

Calling them wusses and this extensive hate on them almost makes you sound like you'd be the type to bully some-one like this. Not that I expect you to.

So some credits to you for an amusing, well-written article, more so for doing your research and teach people the history behind it, I like that some people don't just hound something without looking into it. Zero credits for the actual subject. We've heard it already in some way or form, more often than not from those other girls who hate the "wussy rpg girl" archetype.

 

[Podunk]

So some credits to you for an amusing, well-written article, more so for doing your research and teach people the history behind it, I like that some people don't just hound something without looking into it. Zero credits for the actual subject. We've heard it already in some way or form, more often than not from those other girls who hate the "wussy rpg girl" archetype.

A well worded argument, but I don't think most gamers have quite the same taste for cliche that you seem to.

On the topic, I'd like to point out Virginia Maxwell from Wild Arms 3. She is the main character and though she is entirely competent she is still in touch with her feminine side. It's still a problem in that that is the only one that comes to mind.

 

[VondeVon]

If you've got low self-esteem, are meek and doe-eyed, and have the worst luck of any person living or dead, chances are you're a JRPG "heroine.

Or Isabella Swan from Twilight.

Which says it all.

 

[imPacT31]

And by "capable," I don't mean they need to deck their male co-stars in the face once per hour of game time, a la Lightning of Final Fantasy XIII. While an immense improvement over the Wussy RPG Girl, Lightning is really an example of the same principle taken to the other extreme. In the place of constant kidnappings, the game pounds her toughness into players' heads by having her perform random acts of aggression. She's written as far more overbearingly macho than the majority of male protagonists and, just like the Wussy RPG Girl's nubile frailty, her toughness is so exaggerated that it's sometimes hard to take her seriously.
Final Fantasy XIII conspicuously avoided giving Lightning even slightly feminine traits, perhaps for fear they would still carry that ancient connotation of weakness. But it's definitely possible for a heroine to be girly - and, yes, even a bit vulnerable - without making her a cream puff.

I'm going to take issue with this because, from my point of view, the author is essentially complaining that a character who joined the military at a young age as a means to escape the emotional impact of her parents' deaths, and has subsequently suffered from a significant lack of emotional development, is neither feminine nor vulnerable - on the surface, I must presume. Lightning shows little in the way of vulnerability, outwardly, precisely because that is the purpose of the "Lightning" persona, it's a means of escaping from who she really is and to instead be someone who focuses solely on the goals set before her and completing them with no actual thought for the consequences. She lacks the ability to empathise with others, and to approach problems from their viewpoint, because doing so would force her to confront who she has become. It's very apparent from the way she mentors Hope, also suffering from the immediate loss of a parent, that the "Lightning" persona, like his "Operation Nora" is just a coping mechanism to put aside whatever emotions she might otherwise have to confront.

As for complaining about how "macho" the character is, is it really a great surprise? Genders aside, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the career soldier is more "macho" than an ex-pilot with a young son, the grieving teenager or the self-styled "hero" and leader of a small-time gang of monster hunters. As, again, her persona is built upon confronting problems directly, according to orders, and avoiding bringing her own emotions into decisions, it's unsurprising that her typical course of action, once she's lost any true direction, is to take out her feelings of impotence through aggression. Once her life loses any sense of order, her first response is to lash out at those she sees as being responsible without any forethought.

While I suppose you could call it a bit of a cop-out, Lightning exists to be a character who has gone to extreme lengths to avoid showing vulnerability. She's one of those characters who has a lot of hidden depth, hidden in this case meaning rarely appearing in the game. The problem in that respect is that the title isn't so much about Lightning learning to be Claire Farron again, as it is about her learning that blindly following orders to avoid thinking is a pretty bad idea. Rather than have her characterisation go full-circle, the developers instead decided to have her to eventually adapt to change, instead of resisting it at every turn. As we never truly see Claire outside the "Lightning" persona, her original personality never really gets a chance to make an impact.

 

[Aurora Firestorm]

Maybe it's because in real life I'm closer to the "macho girl" type than many, but I like Lightning, and I see the "What about a game where Cloud constantly sucker-punches Barret?" as the exact problematic reaction. Why can't we have a girl that does this? Why can't we have someone who is going to such enormous lengths to be "strong" that she sometimes gets extreme? It's like "Oh, female characters should always be emotionally competent and work out their problems very smoothly and socially." Yes, because that's totally realistic. This is all a knee-jerk reaction to "macho woman."

I saw the name Schala dropped as another "wussy princess." Schala successfully defied her planet-raping, mass-murdering mother and her monstrosity of a brother multiple times and saved the world. You're complaining about her being wussy? She's got some of the biggest balls in game. She don't need the Lightning personality to have a whole ton of bravery and strength. That's also key -- we should be able to deal with macho women, but also understand when the non-macho types are being strong and when they're Wussy RPG Girls.

I wouldn't count Shion from Xenosaga as a Strong Woman, but now I'm just nitpicking. She spends the entire game being in a lovesick stupor, her weapons are pathetic, her skills are weak, and she flails around whenever KOS-MOS kicks ass and complains about OH NO THE HUMANITY! (Which in some cases does make sense, but she's usually a passive observer who cries a lot about what goes on in the games.)

I would count Marle from Chrono Trigger even though she's a princess, because she constantly defies expectations, rebels against her father the King, is a total tomboy, saves the main character from his already occurred death without sacrificing herself (!!!) and goes breaking into the King's chamber by jumping through the window and standing up to the entire Court. Tell me that's not badass.

What I want to see now are JRPG females who have the power level in their weapons just as much as the men. Ayla is the only one in Chrono Trigger (as bows are the Wussy Girl weapon of choice, and somehow energy guns are also put in that category). In Persona, Yukiko's fans are stupidly weak. (Contrast Jean from Lunar 2 Eternal Blue, who has razor fans and kicks tons of ass. I'd add her to the Strong Women list.)

I want the "female-healer-archer-with-no-attack-power" trope to go die in a fire.

 

[Grand_Marquis]

Luckily, no JRPG characters have much going on in the personality department, so they're among equals! OH SNAP. Yeah I went there

Yes, you did. And on the way to over "there" you apparently fell down a flight of stairs and hit your head quite hard....

As for the article, I did enjoy reading it, if nothing else simply because it was well written.
However, I always cringe somewhat when someone decides to label a certain type of stock character as "bad", no matter how articulate the labeling might be.

I do believe that most stock characters, as long as they are not used out of habit or without any reflection, CAN and DO serve a purpose. Some games DO require a figure that must be rescued. And what if you simply need a weak, feminine character to pull of certain stories or character relations ? Is it bad to use one ? Bad all the time ? Really ?

Then again, I do enjoy a good rescue romance and whatnot.
So I might simply be talking out of my ass.

Good sir I'll have you know that bump on my head was a birth defect! >:O

But on a serious note, I agree that stock characters have their place in fiction, and that place is important. But there is also such a thing as a Badly Written Character. It's true! They really exist, and not in some convenient realm of "It's all Subjective" or "it's just fiction" either; those arguments are dangerous. They're easy ammo for any given genre fan who wants to defend this or that product. They can just use it to go the opposite direction from the one you're suggesting the article takes: it lets them parade around Badly Written Characters as perfectly acceptable Stock Characters who should get a free pass. Because it's all subjective, you see. It's just fiction, they're not real, you understand. So that makes it okay somehow. This line of thinking is a recipe for stunting the growth of their genre as a whole.

Identifying and destroying the overused Stereotypes and the Badly Written Characters is a vital process for strengthening any genre. And it's a role that is woefully underrepresented in the JRPG fandom. Among others. (many many others)

 

[Grand_Marquis]

I want the "female-healer-archer-with-no-attack-power" trope to go die in a fire.

Off topic - you know, the final season of the 2003 Ninja Turtles cartoon was pretty strange, but when the Turtles met their elemenal-powered Mentors, my god it was a breath of fresh air to see Earth/Stone represented by the female one. People need to mix that shit up more.

 

[MrhalfAwake]

Honestly Tifa's probably the worst of the lot. At least others are honest about it. Tifa's just so ..passive.

She flat out knows Cloud is delusional but never calls him on it. Or asks what's up o says anything to anyone and just let's him continue living his lie. She's jealous of a girl he just met. No one questions the severity of the actions Barrette has everyone pull and her outfit, Now I know JRPGs as a whole have some crazy senses of style but even giving the nature of her world she looks whorish. No one anywhere is dressing remotely like she does.

and the worst part, the absolute one hing I can't forgive or over look. She get's into a slap fight with a secretary and can possibly lose. She's an alleged black belt she should have just kicked Scarlet's head off and called it a day.

Just because you give a female character a typically male battle role and skill set doesn't mean you've created a non wussy female character. She's still helpless most of the time and can't deal directly with other characters and is more often than not just relegated to a back ground role. I often have to wonder why she's even in the game.

 

[TheAmazingHobo]

Good sir I'll have you know that bump on my head was a birth defect! >:O

But on a serious note, I agree that stock characters have their place in fiction, and that place is important. But there is also such a thing as a Badly Written Character. It's true! They really exist, and not in some convenient realm of "It's all Subjective" or "it's just fiction" either; those arguments are dangerous. They're easy ammo for any given genre fan who wants to defend this or that product. They can just use it to go the opposite direction from the one you're suggesting the article takes: it lets them parade around Badly Written Characters as perfectly acceptable Stock Characters who should get a free pass. Because it's all subjective, you see. It's just fiction, they're not real, you understand. So that makes it okay somehow. This line of thinking is a recipe for stunting the growth of their genre as a whole.

Identifying and destroying the overused Stereotypes and the Badly Written Characters is a vital process for strengthening any genre. And it's a role that is woefully underrepresented in the JRPG fandom. Among others. (many many others)

I definitly agree with the sentiment that it is a necessary process.
I just meant to point out that it should not be done reflexivly, because we judge a stock character to be offensive, stupid or bad. It should be, as you pointed out so aptly, because a stock character is actually badly written, i.e. does NOT serve a specific purpose well.

But I still maintain that there IS a need for stupid, weak, useless and helpless characters.
As long as they are well written stupid, weak, useless and helpless characters.

 

[clarissa]

This article written by Eileen Stahl has some points I agree with. However, the author seems to give examples that, at least for me, do not represent the majority of female protagonists in JRPG. I played a lot, and I agree with what the author said about these example, but these types of protagonists do not represent half of the protagonists in JRPG I know.
If you think about the FF series, maybe it is ok to apply this "kabuki tradition" as a general rule. But we should not forget about Terra, Tifa, Eiko, Riku, Ashley. One can say: "some of these girls are not the protagonists". Ok, here more examples: Tear (from Tales of the Abyss), Farah (from Tales of Eternia), Millie (from Star Ocean: First Departure), Reimi (from Star Ocean: The Last Hope). These characters are not fragile in the sense stated in the article, neither are tough as Lightning. Of course they have issue and problems in the past, but that is what forms round-characters in these stories. According to E.M. Foster, there is not good long story without round-characters to be the protagonist of it.

 

[cj_iwakura]

I'm guessing the writer only played the most stereotypical of JRPGs, or she's going by what she's read about them.

 

[clarissa]

Wait, wait, wait - Eileen Stahl? 'Raptor Red' from Something Awful? If so, that's awesome. One of the funniest writers Something Awful had (next to Zack Parsons and Bobservo) that didn't have to mention 'piles and piles of dogs!' to get laughs.

This was an interesting article either way. I always like reading about gender politics in the creative mediums (assuming your imagination is tweaked enough to refer to the stereotypical JRPG as creative), it always helps me so I know what to avoid when writing female characters of my own.

A lot of the female characters that I create tend to go more the 'Lightning' route described here. Thoughtlessly cruel and often violent, the sort of women that'd watch a child get kicked to death and the only emotion it'd arouse would be hunger.

I should stop basing female characters on my ex-girlfriends, basically.

Part of the reason I don't play JRPG's anymore is because of all the irritating characters,'Princess Types' included that hang around in them. The last one I played was Final Fantasy 9, the characters in that game annoyed me so much that I couldn't get more than half way.

It isn't just the female characters that annoy me either. The boringly stoic male leads (hmmph... whatever) and bizarrely fetishistic animal characters (who here actually liked Cait Sith? Anyone?) and the constant badgering from the token 9 year old child that runs around acting like they know it all (I really wanted to watch EIko from Final Fantasy 9 get fed into a mincer and then set on fire. That probably isn't healthy).

Which is another thing I don't get. Why does every JRPG have to use teenagers and children as either their main characters or as party members? Children are useless in a fight, and I should know.

For me - JRPG's have been kind of stagnating in medieval Japanese culture for a long time and it's starting to look rather sad on their part. I'd welcome any recommendations for JRPG's that break the mould, but I've been let down before. I'd need to see a total overhaul before I'd even consider playing another JRPG game.

It amazes me how much rubbish a person can say about something they barely know.
If you have not played a lot of JRPGS, don´t you think you actually have nothing to say on the matter?
Plus, you don´t seem to understand femininity at all,as you impose a very sexist characterization on your female characters.
Generalising, if think Japan is not creative with their female characters, you are not being creative in your games and in your critics either, because you are dragging the point to the exact opposite side.
I am not a FFIX fangirl (actually, I think it is one of the most unattractive game of the series since the XIII), neither a JRPG fangirl; but you cannot generalise like this.

How could you assert that every character in JPRG is either a teen or a child?
What about Cloud?
What about Tidus?
What about Cesio?
My God... What about AURON?

 

[clarissa]

glad someone else notices how ass-backwards 99.999999% of all JRPGs are...

which is why we should look to the Americas and Europe for actual GOOD games with REAL depth.

Really? Backwards?
Have you ever played ALL JRPGs to state that ALL of them are backwards?
And what do even mean by "games with real depth"?
Do you really consider backwards a game that allows a player to choose between 12 characters and over 80 different endings, that allows unexpected turn of events depending on the player's choices, that does not dictate what the players needs to do by imposing cut-scenes, i. e., a game that is by itself the proper definition of "game" (J. P. Wolf, 1991)?

 

[Azaraxzealot]

glad someone else notices how ass-backwards 99.999999% of all JRPGs are...

which is why we should look to the Americas and Europe for actual GOOD games with REAL depth.

Really? Backwards?
Have you ever played ALL JRPGs to state that ALL of them are backwards?
And what do even mean by "games with real depth"?
Do you really consider backwards a game that allows a player to choose between 12 characters and over 80 different endings, that allows unexpected turn of events depending on the player's choices, that does not dictate what the players needs to do by imposing cut-scenes, i. e., a game that is by itself the proper definition of "game" (J. P. Wolf, 1991)?

JRGs DO spend all their time imposing cutscenes so that we can't play. See Yahtzee's review of FF13

games with real depth are those with real decisions with real consequences, like in Mass Effect when i had to choose to let Ashley or Kaiden die... that was something that made me put the controller down and REALLY think.

a JRPG would have made the decision for you. thus making a less interactive experience and therefore less of a game.

 

[clarissa]

games with real depth are those with real decisions with real consequences, like in Mass Effect when i had to choose to let Ashley or Kaiden die... that was something that made me put the controller down and REALLY think.

a JRPG would have made the decision for you. thus making a less interactive experience and therefore less of a game.

Ok, ok. You are right at certain point. But I know JRPGS in which you have to do choices just like this one you said and these choices have serious consequences for the story and for the gameplay.
Star Ocean series, for instance, you have to choose 4 characters from, in general, 10 options.
In Star Ocean II, if you pick a certain character, you will have some benefits for you which differ from the benefits you will have from picking another character: items, quests, transportation, crafting, etc.
You can also choose not to pick anyone at all.
And if you do so, either they die, either they give you money, either they save you, and so on an so forth.
And this is just an ONE example. I have, at least, 10 JRPGs like this in mind.

JRGs DO spend all their time imposing cutscenes so that we can't play. See Yahtzee's review of FF13

Ah, and by the way...
FFXIII is an exception. I played it shortly. That THING is not an RPG. Shouldn´t even be considered a game.
That thing is a disgrace upon all gamers. It is a true blasphemy.

I cannot believe in a game that restores my hp after every single battle...

Also: Star Ocean II (PS1) does not have cut-scenes. Not even a single one.

 

[Azaraxzealot]

games with real depth are those with real decisions with real consequences, like in Mass Effect when i had to choose to let Ashley or Kaiden die... that was something that made me put the controller down and REALLY think.

a JRPG would have made the decision for you. thus making a less interactive experience and therefore less of a game.

Ok, ok. You are right at certain point. But I know JRPGS in which you have to do choices just like this one you said and these choices have serious consequences for the story and for the gameplay.
Star Ocean series, for instance, you have to choose 4 characters from, in general, 10 options.
In Star Ocean II, if you pick a certain character, you will have some benefits for you which differ from the benefits you will have from picking another character: items, quests, transportation, crafting, etc.
You can also choose not to pick anyone at all.
And if you do so, either they die, either they give you money, either they save you, and so on an so forth.
And this is just an ONE example. I have, at least, 10 JRPGs like this in mind.

JRGs DO spend all their time imposing cutscenes so that we can't play. See Yahtzee's review of FF13

Ah, and by the way...
FFXIII is an exception. I played it shortly. That THING is not an RPG. Shouldn´t even be considered a game.
That thing is a disgrace upon all gamers. It is a true blasphemy.

I cannot believe in a game that restores my hp after every single battle...

Also: Star Ocean II (PS1) does not have cut-scenes. Not even a single one.

still doesnt account for the cheesy story-telling where angsty giant-haired tweens save the universe. many JRPG "Characters" and "stories" are chock-full of interchangeable tropes that could be in ANY videogame and it would have the exact same story
almost everyone is a complete stereotype (especially when its someone who is apparently not japanese... damn are they xenophobic)
also (if you read the article) women are most usually shoved off to the side as either super-girly helpless things or super-manly-must-punch-male-protagonist-in-the-balls-every-second things.

the only JRPG i like is pokemon, and that's purely for its metagame, not for its story

 

[NeutralDrow]

That thing is a disgrace upon all gamers. It is a true blasphemy.

I cannot believe in a game that restores my hp after every single battle...

<url=http://gamecube.gaming-universe.de/screens/boxart_us_baten-kaitos-origins.jpg>BLASPHEMY!

Besides, you're actually taking that person seriously? I've found that someone who spouts the line that "all JRPGs are populated by spikey-haired emos" is pretty much a lost cause.

 

[clarissa]

That thing is a disgrace upon all gamers. It is a true blasphemy.

I cannot believe in a game that restores my hp after every single battle...

<url=http://gamecube.gaming-universe.de/screens/boxart_us_baten-kaitos-origins.jpg>BLASPHEMY!

Besides, you're actually taking that person seriously? I've found that someone who spouts the line that "all JRPGs are populated by spikey-haired emos" is pretty much a lost cause.

I haven`t played Baiten kaitos, so I didn`t undertand why you linked it in your quotation... sorry
If this have something to do with the hp-restoring system, don`t worry. FFXIII has other annoying things that i consider a drawback.
If Baiten Kaitos has such a system, well, I would probably feel not so enthusiastic. Maybe the battler are really tough.

Do you say lost cause? Perhaps. His\her last argument just proved your point.
Thanks.

 

[clarissa]

still doesnt account for the cheesy story-telling where angsty giant-haired tweens save the universe. many JRPG "Characters" and "stories" are chock-full of interchangeable tropes that could be in ANY videogame and it would have the exact same story
almost everyone is a complete stereotype (especially when its someone who is apparently not japanese... damn are they xenophobic)
also (if you read the article) women are most usually shoved off to the side as either super-girly helpless things or super-manly-must-punch-male-protagonist-in-the-balls-every-second things.

the only JRPG i like is pokemon, and that's purely for its metagame, not for its story

It seems that you WANT to see something wrong with Japanese... not only in games, but probably in everything. Pardon me, but you are also being extremely xenophobic.
It seems that for you, unless it is not in accordabce to your western biased view, it is not good.
The same way you feel about the japanese characters, I feel sometimes about the western characters. They are also stereotypes, western ones, and because you are on this side, you don`t realise it.
They are only in accordance to what you what to see. Your arguments also shows that you are extremely unreceptive and ignorant: you don`t see what you don`t want to see. In other words, you are only being prejudist.

Now, just to end this conversation, let me ask you something: do you really think that only because it`s an ARTICLE on the INTERNET it has to day the truth? I mean, come on, an article states a opinion, it does not mean it the right thing... she didn`t even strong arguments to prove, just her opinion and some shallow arguments.
Do you really accept everything you read?

 

[NeutralDrow]

That thing is a disgrace upon all gamers. It is a true blasphemy.

I cannot believe in a game that restores my hp after every single battle...

<url=http://gamecube.gaming-universe.de/screens/boxart_us_baten-kaitos-origins.jpg>BLASPHEMY!

Besides, you're actually taking that person seriously? I've found that someone who spouts the line that "all JRPGs are populated by spikey-haired emos" is pretty much a lost cause.

I haven`t played Baiten kaitos, so I didn`t undertand why you linked it in your quotation... sorry

Oh, Baten Kaitos Origins restores your HP for each battle. It's a helluva lot more convenient than in the first game, since it's no longer a money sink, and conflicts with the change of every character having a deck to all three characters sharing one. Not to mention less grind, since you don't have to enter battle with weak enemies to heal yourself (rather than use single-use items out of combat).