239: Curiosity Killed the NPC

whindmarch

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Curiosity Killed the NPC

Roleplaying games give you an opportunity to act out the part of the hero in a world that desperately needs one. But what happens when, after a few costly mistakes, you end up with a hero that is less than heroic? Will Hindmarch examines the angst of roleplaying a character you grow to despise.

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Onyx Oblivion

Borderlands Addict. Again.
Sep 9, 2008
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I usually reload. Often the Renegade option in Mass Effect is a hell of a lot more of dick move than it seems from the preview text of the option.
 

Flying Dagger

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Apr 14, 2009
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I preferred the Mass Effect take on morality, then say fallout 3 or KOTOR, I don't want to always be good, so i'll make the choices I feel need making, if that means dooming a species out of existence then so be it, for the safety of all. it shouldn't negate the good things i have done, and vice versa.
though i tend not to put the level of thought into these actions, though the sheriff's story is all the more painful when you go to his house, and have to talk to his son.
 
Feb 13, 2008
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Long time ago in a LARP, I created a character. He was originally meant to be a sufferer, a tortured genius whose bursts of inspiration were wonders to behold; but then something happened.

As the character grew from interaction with others, he became a misogynistic, hateful, spineless, crass, anti-social, sycophant. One of the things I can tell you about is that in order to make a deal, he stole babies from a local hospital after declaring them legally dead. Then he kicked one to death when it wouldn't stop crying.

Yeah. REALLY horrible guy. I had to get myself worked up to play him, and I could only keep the act for an hour or so.

BUT...everyone loved him. Not so much as a person, but as a car-crash. He would deliberately piss people off just by being there, and in the end it was just becoming too exhausting to play him and I killed him off.

Dunno what else I can say about him really. Just that sometimes it's not you who turn the character, but the character himself that wants to be turned.
 

Hirvox

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Feb 4, 2008
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ObnoxiousPotatoe said:
Actually, if you're fast enough you can kill Mr. Burke before he shoots Simms.
Of course, sometimes even quick reflexes that border on precognition afforded by the Load Game button cannot prevent bad outcomes, especially in the case of the [spoiler:]Tenpenny Tower[/spoiler]. From what I've understood The Witcher takes unforeseen consequences to a new level by [spoiler:]having the Big Bad's motivation decided by an incognito encounter with the hero early on[/spoiler].

Personally, I love these kinds of stories, because the struggle to redeem the character can be interesting in itself.
 

ObnoxiousPotatoe

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Shalkis said:
ObnoxiousPotatoe said:
Actually, if you're fast enough you can kill Mr. Burke before he shoots Simms.
Of course, sometimes even quick reflexes that border on precognition afforded by the Load Game button cannot prevent bad outcomes, especially in the case of the [spoiler:]Tenpenny Tower[/spoiler].
Ah yes, that was a major kick in the balls (good reason to go on a murderous rampage for once, though).
 

MGlBlaze

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ObnoxiousPotatoe said:
Actually, if you're fast enough you can kill Mr. Burke before he shoots Simms.
Or at least, you can kill Burke before Simms is killed. Just how low was his character's weapons skills?

Although, speaking of Fallout 3, the Tenpenny Tower quest is my most hated quest of all. Option one, you kill all three ghouls and get negative karma, being depicted as a brutal crusher of dreams. Help get them in diplomatically by convincing the biggots to leave?
A little while later, the entire tower is occupied by only Ghouls. Roy Phillips KILLS EVERY LAST HUMAN IN THE TOWER FOR NO GOOD REASON. At this point, the only people left in the tower beforehand were people who DID NOT mind ghouls. Can someone please remind me why you get depicted as a monster if you kill them, again?
 

thenumberthirteen

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I remember that bit in Fallout 3. It was one of the first things that happened to me as I came out the vault. Burke shot the Sheriff (but he didn't shoot the Deputy *he didn't shoot him, he didn't shoot him*) I shot a Burke from about 6 feet away, missed, and shot the guy at the bar behind him, and blew his head off. Everyone else turned on me, and shot me to bits.

MGlBlaze said:
Although, speaking of Fallout 3, the Tenpenny Tower quest is my most hated quest of all. Option one, you kill all three ghouls and get negative karma, being depicted as a brutal crusher of dreams. Help get them in diplomatically by convincing the biggots to leave?
A little while later, the entire tower is occupied by only Ghouls. Roy Phillips KILLS EVERY LAST HUMAN IN THE TOWER FOR NO GOOD REASON. At this point, the only people left in the tower beforehand were people who DID NOT mind ghouls. Can someone please remind me why you get depicted as a monster if you kill them, again?
I was playing good, but and was disappointed when everyone went on about me killing the Ghouls. I never really liked Ghouls anyway. I made up for it by shooting Tenpenny in the face for that mission to get the secret armour. Every problem caused by a bullet can be solved by a bullet.

Actually the guy who leads you to the armor ran away, and was glitched out of existence. Go figure.
 

erbkaiser

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Jun 20, 2009
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Re: Tenpenny Tower: I made one of my first Fallout 3 mods precisely to take care of that injustice. I consider it almost to be of game-breaking nature... if the intent was to teach a moral lesson there it failed (for me at least).
On my second play-through, with the mod in place, I had great satisfaction in killing Roy and not getting a karma hit. The guy was a homicidal maniac so my killing him before he could murder all the people in TT was a form of justice.


On topic: I seldom play as a "black" morale character, but also not as a "white" goodguy. I prefer the neutral gray.
In AD&D terms, I prefer Neutral Good edging on True Neutral over Lawful Good.
 

Sgt. Dante

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MancalaManiac said:
ObnoxiousPotatoe said:
Actually, if you're fast enough you can kill Mr. Burke before he shoots Simms.
Yup! This took me five or six re-loads, but I eventually got it.
On topic: I usually like to play a game through twice. Once as a good character, then once as an evil character.
Same here, usually the stories are different enough to justify a second play through with the morality compass flipped 180. Never did go for a second play through of falout3 tho. I ended up murdering most of the vault in an inexperienced bit of, "they'll get me if i don't get them first." Later in the story when
you go back into the vault
I found my actions had some real consequence, for the player inexperience led to the shortest and easiest route out of a bad situation, but for the character, he had lost the love and respect of the community he spend most of his life with. After realizing the outcome of my actions i never again fired the first shot, at least not on humans.

Edit:
jordik said:
Re: Tenpenny Tower: I made one of my first Fallout 3 mods precisely to take care of that injustice. I consider it almost to be of game-breaking nature... if the intent was to teach a moral lesson there it failed (for me at least).
I think the point was that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. You think that you're doing justice to the little guy but in the end it was your well intent actions that brought the downfall on a community that didn't know any better.
 

malestrithe

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This why I hate Western RPG's in general: not enough choices with the character development. You can either be good, evil or a neutral is almost always cowardly. I cannot stand the tabula rasa approach they have to the characters: with few exceptions, the protagonist, you, in Western rpgs is always generic hooligan with no real personality attached to him. You can either be rude or angelic and that is it. I really want more choices than just the two.

As much as this will get me crucified by some, atleast in jrpg country, you get to control fully fleshed out characters through their quest to kill god. Having a personality is so much better than being generic.
 

Wolfrug

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Feb 11, 2009
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Actually, what you're talking about here (the 'save game' fix) is exactly the thing I think modern games, no matter the genre, should try to work around. I can't come up with any story-driven game who'd fit the bill (procedural games à la Mount & Blade are a different breed alltogether), but the possibilities are hinted at in Fahrenheit. (Spoilers, but this is all in the demo so go play it): In the first scene, after the murder, the player is given the opportunity to either try to clean up after himself and coolly walk out the front door, or simply rush, covered in blood, out through the back and into the streets in a panic. In the following scene, the detectives have to piece together the murder - finding the weapon if it was hidden, interview the waitress, find other clues etc. Since both of these opposing forces (fugitive and hunter) are played by the player, there's an element of choice: how many clues should I leave for them to find? Unfortunately, it ends up not really mattering at all, aside from aesthetic differences (e.g. the accounts given by the waitress and the police), but the IDEA is there.

Imagine if almost every act you perform in some way influences the future - to the extent that to go back to "undo" something you've done would require a load to a save hours and hours back in time. In Dragon Age, at the cusp of some important decision, I'd simply save, then check out one option, come to the conclusion I didn't like it and then check out the other. In DA:O (SPOILERS), your decisions during the main quest affected exactly one thing: what kind of armies you'd have at your disposal during the final attack. I did not use more than ONE of those 'armies' - the whole thing last fight was a joke in how easy it was.

I guess my problem is the easy way out most games take - decision A leads to conclusion B. It's immediately apparent what the consequences of your decision is, the end. The Fallouts, and in a limited manner DA:O (in the end narration), as well as many other games (such as Bioshock) do give your decisions more long-term consequences, but these are also simple A to B progressions. After one playthrough you know which decisions are going to give the 'good' ending and which the 'bad' ending. Furthermore, they're post-game, they're no longer a part of the central experience. I want a complicated world (like our own) in which decisions taken lightly will later come back and bite you in the ass - or not. The idea would be that everything would be so complicated that you might as well just rush in and do everything as your character/you would see fit, and leave the consequences behind your savegame. You don't quicksave every time before you build a powerplant in Sim City either, do you?

Anyway, long rant and not very coherent, but vaguely on-topic as to the article. Which was an interesting read, by the way!
 

Clemenstation

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I find it more amusing to think of myself as the director than the character. Works especially well for games like Mass Effect, where (as someone pointed out above) Shepard occasionally does something totally unexpected based on the short text description you choose.

Really, Shepard? I just wanted to end the interview and you decided to punch that reporter right in her face? Well, at least it was hilarious...
 

orangebandguy

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Jan 9, 2009
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I remember helping the ghouls get into Tenpenny Tower, spending valuable points on Speech skills so I could pass the tests and convince Tenpenny to let them in. I managed to do it, and gave the ghouls the ok to enter.

Everything was sorted it seemed, until I wanted to offload some salvage from the surronding area with the ghoul shopkeeps. I entered into the lobby and all was deathly quiet, save for Michael Masters sitting at a table on his own in the bar.

I entered conversation to see if any unusual dialogue options came up and sure enough I could remark on how everyone seemed to have dissappeared. Michael Masters gave a croaky laugh saying 'you might wanna check the basement kid. Leeroy's been busy taking out some of the trash.'

I ran over to the basement already dreading what I knew would be there, dismembered corpses and worst of all Herbert Daring Dashwood. The only person to show some compassion for the ghouls, and wracked with guilt over Rockopolis and the loss of Argyle, now lay dead and mutilated.

I purged the tower of all ghouls, let them burn I thought. My self righteousness guided my aim as I let loose a hail of fire from my Assault Rifle, leaving dead ghouls in my wake.

The article does ring truth, mine and his morals were affected by the in game world and we shared the wrath and strength of conviction, compassion and righteousness albeit in our own way of resolving things. Confliction of justice and corruption, I ignored their protestations of innocece and beggings for mercy. My heroic actions are somewhat less than heroic, becoming the homicidal maniac Roy was and because just as hateful and unreasonable as Tenpenny.
 

Sebenko

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malestrithe said:
You can either be good, evil or a neutral is almost always cowardly.


Fallout 3's Broken steel gave the worst choice of all. Blow up one of two places, one giving 1000 karma, one removing 1000.

Why? I'm here to do a job, not be a hero.

My character isn't doing this out of the kindness of their heart and love for the people of the wasteland. I'm going it because I want to kill the enemy. And because I don't want a major faction hating me.

Original topic:

My "hero" reflects me. Of course, the karma meter doesn't. In fallout 3 it's totally unbalanced. I had to steal a metric fuckton of stuff if I wanted to be evil because of the amount of good karma I got for quests.

And I refuse to play a stupid evil character.
Why would I blow up megaton? That's a retarded idea- I'd lose a useful place to make money, stop off and rest and all the other stuff there is to do there.

So my "karma" is what I say it is, not what the game says.
Save the captives from the supermutants? I get free stuff, and the mutants have attacked me anyway. The game says I get good karma, but for me, it's a more neutral, pragmatic choice- what gets me out of the other side with the biggest gain?

I suppose what I'm trying to say is "Ignore the halo, it's just there so I can use it to slit you throat and take your stuff."
 

machineiv

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Oct 15, 2009
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Sebenko said:
Fallout 3's Broken steel gave the worst choice of all. Blow up one of two places, one giving 1000 karma, one removing 1000.
That was so stupid, so unlike the rest of the game. Your choice is, "Make a logical decision to protect the world," or, "Be a total, mass-murdering dick with absolutely no incentive to do so."

That's not a moral choice, that's just lazy.
 

Sebenko

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machineiv said:
Sebenko said:
Fallout 3's Broken steel gave the worst choice of all. Blow up one of two places, one giving 1000 karma, one removing 1000.
That was so stupid, so unlike the rest of the game. Your choice is, "Make a logical decision to protect the world," or, "Be a total, mass-murdering dick with absolutely no incentive to do so."

That's not a moral choice, that's just lazy.
Yeah, the game's idea seems to be "You're a hero, you killed the evil villians!"
My though was "I'm a survivor, and having another few hundred power armoured goons hunting me is going to make things even more difficult"
 

TheNumber1Zero

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Jul 23, 2009
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ObnoxiousPotatoe said:
Actually, if you're fast enough you can kill Mr. Burke before he shoots Simms.
Ah yes, I remember my brother doing that. It took him about 3 tries, with the final attempt involving a Chinese Assualt Rifle to the head.

This is actually the only article I have ever read from start to finish, and I quite liked it.
Job well done Hindmarch, job well done.