A Beginner's Guide to Dark Souls - 7 Steps to Sucking Less

[EvilRoy]

When choosing skill points, why isn't there a visual indication of how much stamina or health I will be gaining? - The game has trained me to measure my combat efficiency in "tick marks" on two bars, but expects me to understand numerical representations of those same without visually demonstrating it.

Its great that the game expresses scaling with damages on an easy to read letter basis - but how does a B scaling compare to a C scaling? It's better, but how much better?

Wait wait, you complain in one breath that you don't like numbers, then in the next breath complain that you want numbers?

I...wha...?

One or the other, not both - and certainly not when one demonstrates a desire to communicate with precision and the other demonstrates the clear opposite.

2. For reasons no doubt lost to time, the controls actually allow themselves to be stacked in spite of any of the players actual desire. In my experience this has even included attacking, being interrupted with a stagger, and then having my character actually try to complete the command I gave to attack again because I hit the button twice originally.

The reasons aren't difficult - it's an anti-button masher measure. The game expects you to understand that you had better mean it if you press a button. Also you can almost always interrupt the action stacking by rolling.

That would make sense if actions didn't typically carry a delay, but they do. Also, not only do rolls also stack but they cost stamina to perform, making them a very undesirable way to break a stack.

Also - Why would jump ever be double tap the run button when roll is single tap, and why is the run button the same as the backstep button? I get they all fall under a specific 'movement' banner, but christ almightly, jumping backwards is the exact opposite of what I want when trying to run forward, made infinitely worse by the game delighting in thin walkways, deathfalls and somewhat bizarre hitboxes.

The controls are tight. If you pressed and released circle to backstep when you wanted to hold it to run then you screwed up, not the game. I've never had it do something incorrectly, it's always been my fault.

They aren't tight, they're uselessly precise. Considering the difference between a roll and a jump can be life or death, there had better be a good way to produce each result independently, but there isn't.

4. A shame then that much of the game is based around a trial and error basis, particularly bosses who rarely have a bonfire nearby.

Again, the game is NOT completely trial and error based. Most things do not kill you in one hit. A cautious approach (or sometimes a reckless approach in Yahztee's example of charging under large enemies) using knowledge you acquired early in the game will vastly increase your chances of success. If by the middle or end of the game you still think it's "trial and error" then you aren't learning and the problem lies with you.

Except when it is trial and error based. Like in boss fights for instance, where the nature of the boss might be completely unrelated to the area the boss is located in. Qualaag is an excellent example of this. All decked out for poison and you've walked onto a bed of coals. No way to reasonably predict this, and it happens numerous times throughout the game. Roof gargoyles breath fire, anor londo gargoyles breath lightning. Drakes breath lightning, but lightning is more effective than fire attacks against them. Heavy attack based boss in a light attack based area - the depths. And so on and so forth.

You demonstrate it in your own response. Be cautious, except when you have to be reckless. Wonder how you tell when?

5. Why does my character still wield a black knight blade like he can barely lift it, when I long ago passed the skill requirements? Why does running or rolling carry the danger of a delay in action? Why does the result of a parry have more in common with the time I press the button to do so than any graphical interaction of shield and weapon - and why does it also have a delay? Why do I still swing Astoras blade like an idiot despite having the dex and str necessary to hold it properly, even if I lack the faith to use its full potential?

Game Balance. Tradeoffs. Advantages and disadvantages.

And a clear dissonance between visuals and mechanics, making the game unintuitive and arbitrary feeling.

 

[nyysjan]

Well, apart from the annoying trial and error gameplay on bosses, coupled with long hazardous treck to the bosses (invisible bridges, oh how i hate you), it's pretty awesome game.

Hate, hate, HATE, the online component though.
Nothing good ever comes from it.

 

[Thanatos2k]

One or the other, not both - and certainly not when one demonstrates a desire to communicate with precision and the other demonstrates the clear opposite.

Sounds like just inconsistent complaining to me. You can easily find the numbers online if you really cared.

That would make sense if actions didn't typically carry a delay, but they do. Also, not only do rolls also stack but they cost stamina to perform, making them a very undesirable way to break a stack.

As designed. The developers did this on purpose so you'd be deliberate about your actions. It's not a flaw.

They aren't tight, they're uselessly precise. Considering the difference between a roll and a jump can be life or death, there had better be a good way to produce each result independently, but there isn't.

If you fail to execute jumping properly that's on you. You rarely have to jump anyways.

The game's controls are INTENTIONALLY that precise, so all mistakes can be attributed to the player, not the system. Again, the whole point.

Except when it is trial and error based. Like in boss fights for instance, where the nature of the boss might be completely unrelated to the area the boss is located in. Qualaag is an excellent example of this. All decked out for poison and you've walked onto a bed of coals. No way to reasonably predict this, and it happens numerous times throughout the game. Roof gargoyles breath fire, anor londo gargoyles breath lightning. Drakes breath lightning, but lightning is more effective than fire attacks against them. Heavy attack based boss in a light attack based area - the depths. And so on and so forth.

There were several bosses I beat on the first try, by using skills I learned earlier in the game. That said, if you expect to beat everything on the first try then your expectations are completely out of whack with what the game is. Getting smashed into the ground, getting back up and challenging things until you succeed is the ENTIRE POINT of the Souls games. It's CORE to the experience. It is NOT a flaw, it's the ENTIRE GAME.

And a clear dissonance between visuals and mechanics, making the game unintuitive and arbitrary feeling.

I'm rolling my eyes. When you think a game like FF7 has more intuitive sword wielding mechanics for 6 foot long swords, you got problems. At no point in the game is your guy supposed to become some kind of superhuman fighting machine. You are ALWAYS supposed to be a small vulnerable guy in a bigger world of monstrous foes. There is no dissonance whatsoever from this theme.

 

[Saidan]

Great job Yatz, that's a great piece of advise for newcomers to the game.

My bits of advice:
1. Take the master key, the other gifts are pretty crap
2. If you don't start as a pyromancer, go get the flame at the first opportunity (I think you can rescue a guy who will sell it to you in the lower burg, if not the lady in blighttown will) since it doesn't draw from any stats, making it great for warriors.
3. Once you find the blacksmith in the parish, buy the seal of whatever from him. It unlocks a big door in the forest next to a fake wall hiding a bonfire, and leads to an area where you can trick high-level enemies into jumping off cliffs for grinding purposes.
4. Once you kill Havel the Rock (under the tower you fight the bull demon on top of) put on his ring and never take it off. It's great to be able to fast roll in decent armor.

Sorry, but I must strongly disagree with your first point. A new player should NEVER take the master key in the first run, cause that item allows you to sequence break, which will result in an incomplete experience. They may skip most of Blightown, and might just totally miss the Gaping Dragon, among other relevant points of interest.

The other three points are perfect.

Captcha: agree to disagree

Kinda fitting, haha.

 

[Evonisia]

Thanks Yahtzee. I just finished XCOM: Enemy Unknown the other day (which got me in the mindset of smashing pause, load, autosave number seventy thousand) and I need to shed that feeling. I tried getting into Dark Souls before as a Thief (or is it Rogue? Bandit? That class) and couldn't really get past the first few missions, I'll take your advice when I return to it and make a new character.

Captcha: u jelly?

Probably, I've always wanted to get into both XCOM and Dark Souls, done the former, now I'll do the latter.

 

[EvilRoy]

One or the other, not both - and certainly not when one demonstrates a desire to communicate with precision and the other demonstrates the clear opposite.

Sounds like just inconsistent complaining to me. You can easily find the numbers online if you really cared.

Actually the complaints are unrelated. In the case of vit/stam the game teaches you to measure it based on a clear visual system, and then has you upgrade based on a numerical system with no indication of how numbers translate to tick marks. Whether you use all numbers or all visuals both of these systems are precise.

For scaling the game produces a letter based system that gives an implication of differences between weapons but offers no indication of whether that difference is worth it or how it will affect gameplay in the longrun. In this case the system is both imprecise and opaque.

Even if they were inconsistent with each other, that would not make the complaints any less legitimate no matter how much you apparently wish it would. Also - "look it up on the internet" is easily the worst possible counter you could present. It is an admission that the game is communicating so poorly that a person is required to seek outside assistance.

That would make sense if actions didn't typically carry a delay, but they do. Also, not only do rolls also stack but they cost stamina to perform, making them a very undesirable way to break a stack.

As designed. The developers did this on purpose so you'd be deliberate about your actions. It's not a flaw.

Deliberate actions do not translate well into the fast paced gameplay that the game typically throws you into, usually in the case of boss fights.

They aren't tight, they're uselessly precise. Considering the difference between a roll and a jump can be life or death, there had better be a good way to produce each result independently, but there isn't.

If you fail to execute jumping properly that's on you. You rarely have to jump anyways.

The game's controls are INTENTIONALLY that precise, so all mistakes can be attributed to the player, not the system. Again, the whole point.

Precision is not a defense against blame. A keyboard that accepts inputs only when they are applied at a very specific pressure is not well designed to make mis-inputs the fault of the user - its just a crappy keyboard.

Except when it is trial and error based. Like in boss fights for instance, where the nature of the boss might be completely unrelated to the area the boss is located in. Qualaag is an excellent example of this. All decked out for poison and you've walked onto a bed of coals. No way to reasonably predict this, and it happens numerous times throughout the game. Roof gargoyles breath fire, anor londo gargoyles breath lightning. Drakes breath lightning, but lightning is more effective than fire attacks against them. Heavy attack based boss in a light attack based area - the depths. And so on and so forth.

There were several bosses I beat on the first try, by using skills I learned earlier in the game. That said, if you expect to beat everything on the first try then your expectations are completely out of whack with what the game is. Getting smashed into the ground, getting back up and challenging things until you succeed is the ENTIRE POINT of the Souls games. It's CORE to the experience. It is NOT a flaw, it's the ENTIRE GAME.

Its not a matter of expecting to win on the first try, its a matter of expecting the game to produce shortcuts and checkpoints at locations appropriate to the number of times a first time player will need to retry - something the game does not do until so late in the game it no longer matters.

And a clear dissonance between visuals and mechanics, making the game unintuitive and arbitrary feeling.

I'm rolling my eyes. When you think a game like FF7 has more intuitive sword wielding mechanics for 6 foot long swords, you got problems.

Don't roll them too hard, you might pull something and be unable to properly express derision properly. The problem is one of internal consistency. If my character wields a dragon greatsword the same way as a black knight sword, he either has a very specific disability, or doesn't know how to use either. It makes no sense that he can hoist Smoughs hammer at all, but but has to use his entire might to swing a zweihander.

 

[Darth_Payn]

After reading this, I'm picturing Yahtzee finding that guy with his smug-face from his Dark Souls review, and halberding his bollocks off. It amuses me.

 

[StriderShinryu]

Good list, and not too unlike the lists always posted on the forums here when new players ask for help. Which brings me to the point of this post: generally, Dark Souls fans are not the smug elitist douchebags that they are often made out to be. DS fans thrive on the sharing of information about the game and will gladly give help if asked. Just having more knowledge than someone else or being better at the game than someone else doesn't make you a smug elitist.

 

[mavrik]

1. ....Really?

Um, yes, really - Note I'm playing on PC and raising the resolution makes alot of the UI blurry to the point where it's really hard to see weapon stats. The color scheme goes from brown to brown and really makes it hard to quickly scan for information and the inventory display requires really alot of time to read quickly. It's just not good UX.

Not to mention the fact that you need to read the Wiki (is there even a manual? I have the Steam version) so you know basics of casting spells, the importance of stats and how humanity and other mechanics work is a prime example of terrible UI which doesn't explain how the game is played.

2. What is wrong with the controls? The controls are extremely tight, as they should be in an action game.

For example... fast attacks are bound to shoulder buttons, which are practically never used for primary attacks in most games. Use skill is bound to X, but casting magic requires me to switch weapon. There is no fast item switch, I have to cycle through them with D-pad without pause. This has caused annoyingly steep learning curve, because the controls are just scrambled when compared to most other 3rd person games. I like my game hard, but I hate to die because I have to deal with the control scheme - this always reminds me I play a game and throws me out of the immersion.

And no, controls aren't tight. DMC3 has tight controls. This has long animations where controls get queued. It's another way of doing it and that's ok. They're not really tight by any standard though.

3. Never had this happen.

Pretty much every guide, list of tips, etc. admits the camera is wonky. You've really never had camera just rotate 180 degrees when you crossed some treshold making you totally miss the opponent?

4. You only have to do that when you fail. Again, the patience and learning.

"Only.when you fail". In a game that's all about failing and learning. I DON'T mind failing. I DON'T mind a challenge. I DO MIND having to slog through 25 of the SAME TRASH MOBS every single time I get 1 or 2 shot by a boss. It's a pointless waste of my time that just annoys me. There's nothing to gain by that besides padded game time - I've already learned how to deal with those mobs and they're not a challenge or fun. And I really dislike repetitiveness in my games.

5. What do this even mean? Some weapons are slow, some weapons are fast. Depending on how much weight you're wearing you are slow or fast as well. The responsiveness is EXACTLY where it should be.

Hmm, I think that's a result of the fact that due to difficulty this games reminds me of DMC and Bayonetta alot. However the characters there very noticably faster, could change moves more swiftly and could dodge with greater agility. Here animations are noticably slower which (due to me being used to faster gameplay) annoys me since I can't cancel moves effectively. But that is a personal opinion.

See, it's complaints like these that really make no sense, and make it appear like people are complaining just to complain. Complaints like "bad UI" and "unintuitive controls" are generic hand waving at problems that are hiding the real reason you're having problems. It's not the UI and it's not the controls, because plenty of other people don't have problems with the UI and don't have problems with the controls. Just be honest - "I don't like failing, and I fail a lot in this game."

Nope, that's not it. I play games on hardest difficulties. I've finished hard games without problems. I have nothing against failing. I'm not waving hands. If you really can't see the fact that UI is structured very strangely with very simillar icons that are never explained. The relevant data is burried under several key presses and is not readily available. Controls aren't consistent - some actions are available directly on buttons, some actions require weapon switches, some actions have cyclic controls. If you ever played a game that does UI and control scheme well (see, again, Bayonetta) you'd notice the difference.
You can't just dismiss concerns that are different from your preferences as "hand waving". I think you might have not played enough of other similar games to have a perspective on some elements that are done better in other games.

You make it sound like the entire game is just one long session of I Want To Be The Guy where you are instantly killed by the slightest thing once you progress past the spot you last got to, then you do it all over again. That's not how it is at all. If you're truly learning then you become better at recognizing traps, recognizing how enemies behave, recognizing when to proceed cautiously, recognizing how much reach your attacks have, how much you can block safely, and so on. If you're dying at every possible new trap and enemy then you aren't learning a thing.

That's fine. It would be totally fine. Cheap shots like climbing the stairs and having a rock thrown on you would be fine. If I wouldn't have to repeat last few minutes of slogging through trash mobs every time I accidentally step into an area I'm not supposed to be in yet. That is what's killing the pacing and annoying me. Having to repeatedly kill trivial mobs every time gets old really fast.

The whole point of the game is that it *doesn't* have an easy mode. It is intentionally uncompromising.

There's a difference between hard, uncompromising and needlesly frustrating and obtuse.

 

[Sniper Team 4]

I feel I would have enjoyed the game (and actually beat it) more if there had been a freaking manual explaining things to me. Basic controls and how things work. So many times I didn't know how to do something and if I could have just looked it up in the manual it would have been solved. Fun fact: I never did figure out how to use magic. My character would try to cast the spell, stick their hand out, and when nothing happened, she would look at her hand and scratch the back of her head. I know you're supposed to have like the spell and totem or whatever equipped, but even then it wouldn't work. I was at the halfway point in the game by then so I couldn't go back and do the tutorial again, and when I asked for help, people mocked me. The answer I remember the most is: "God, you got to level 30 and you don't know how to use magic? Did you figure out how to use you sword at least? All you do is hit the attack button." So yeah, I gave up shortly after that because no one would help me. Something like this would have been very helpful for me back then.

 

[mavrik]

Sounds like just inconsistent complaining to me. You can easily find the numbers online if you really cared.

Having to look numbers online instead of having them in UI is a CLEAR proof of just how useless at information presentation the UI is.

As designed. The developers did this on purpose so you'd be deliberate about your actions. It's not a flaw.

That's fine. But that's not "tight".

There were several bosses I beat on the first try, by using skills I learned earlier in the game. That said, if you expect to beat everything on the first try then your expectations are completely out of whack with what the game is. Getting smashed into the ground, getting back up and challenging things until you succeed is the ENTIRE POINT of the Souls games. It's CORE to the experience. It is NOT a flaw, it's the ENTIRE GAME.

That however DOES mean that game is trial-and-error based since it doesn't give you enough information. So please decide what your argument is going to be. Since once you say that game isn't trial and error and then you explain that that's the point to the game. Consistency! You lack is just like this game is.

And a clear dissonance between visuals and mechanics, making the game unintuitive and arbitrary feeling.

Exactly this. Is has tons of great elements. But there are some things that are just so jarring that makes it feel awkward and wierd. Something I haven't felt in alot of other 3rd person RPG/Fighting games. It feels like a glove that doesn't fit perfectly.

 

[mavrik]

I feel I would have enjoyed the game (and actually beat it) more if there had been a freaking manual explaining things to me. Basic controls and how things work. So many times I didn't know how to do something and if I could have just looked it up in the manual it would have been solved. Fun fact: I never did figure out how to use magic. My character would try to cast the spell, stick their hand out, and when nothing happened, she would look at her hand and scratch the back of her head. I know you're supposed to have like the spell and totem or whatever equipped, but even then it wouldn't work. I was at the halfway point in the game by then so I couldn't go back and do the tutorial again, and when I asked for help, people mocked me. The answer I remember the most is: "God, you got to level 30 and you don't know how to use magic? Did you figure out how to use you sword at least? All you do is hit the attack button." So yeah, I gave up shortly after that because no one would help me. Something like this would have been very helpful for me back then.

Yeah, the elitist community coupled with awful tutorial and no explanations make it a frustrating experience. After all, if tutorial would be any good we wouldn't need Yahtzee's article.

 

[suitepee7]

Why are people so exited about lightning weapons? Are enemies specially weak to them or something?

Started playing as a rogue myself, went for Dex build (level 84 now, dex 37, strength 20, stamina and health stats 26 and 28 respectively), usually i carry +10 katana (the one with thrust heavy attack because it's good for tight corridors) and a +10 shield (blood something) and light armor.

most enemies are weak to lightning, with certain exceptions ofc.

the big bonus of lightning is that it removes stat scaling completely, so you can put points elsewhere (e.g. having 15 DEX or 40 DEX will do the same damage). this makes them advisable for NG builds, so you can dump all your points into VIT and END, then focus on the others for scaling weapons for NG+.

also if you're going for a dex build, get the minimum STR required to wield the weapons, then don't touch it, they are wasted points due to poor scaling (unless you're not bothering about PvP at all, in which case do whatever the hell you like, just be prepared for it to take ages to level up after around SL100 without NG+)

 

[Alarien]

My personal path for a nearly 100% melee NG:

1. Masterkey: Kill Sif: get soul
2. Masterkey: Kill Havel
3. Masterkey: Kill Quelaag and Ceaseless: Get Gold-Hemmed Black robe set (gather souls along the way)
4. Str: 34; Dex: 18
5. Get a Black Knight Weapon: (I prefer the Halberd, personally; you can try for a BK weapon in a lot of places early in the game, if you can get drop lucky. Give yourself active humanity for a higher chance)... if you can't the Claymore is a nice alternative, as are the SK Straight Sword and SK Spear in Anor Londo, which can be farmed.)
6. Get to Giant Blacksmith in Anor Londo - Upgrade any shield +10 to Great Shield of Artorius, equip with BK Weapon, Gold-Hemmed Set, Havel's Ring (+ring of choice, I prefer Cloranthy for PVE)

Congratulations: NG is now trivial and most of NG+ is too.

 

[Grimh]

I can't stand people who read up on and learn about a game and then act all high and mighty when someone new tries to learn about the same game. It's like they just plain forgot about how they had to learn it all once and now act like they're so freaking important.
No, they know it now, which means they obviously can look down on people who started out after them and just haven't reached the same stage yet.

It's especially frustrating to me, who mastered the game solely by playing it, which obviously means I'm better than them anyway.

 

[Thanatos2k]

One or the other, not both - and certainly not when one demonstrates a desire to communicate with precision and the other demonstrates the clear opposite.

Sounds like just inconsistent complaining to me. You can easily find the numbers online if you really cared.

Actually the complaints are unrelated. In the case of vit/stam the game teaches you to measure it based on a clear visual system, and then has you upgrade based on a numerical system with no indication of how numbers translate to tick marks. Whether you use all numbers or all visuals both of these systems are precise.

For scaling the game produces a letter based system that gives an implication of differences between weapons but offers no indication of whether that difference is worth it or how it will affect gameplay in the longrun. In this case the system is both imprecise and opaque.

Even if they were inconsistent with each other, that would not make the complaints any less legitimate no matter how much you apparently wish it would. Also - "look it up on the internet" is easily the worst possible counter you could present. It is an admission that the game is communicating so poorly that a person is required to seek outside assistance.

Of course it's inconsistent complaining. On one hand it's "give me the numbers" and on the other "why did you give me numbers?"

If they had given only numbers it'd be "The numbers are too complicated just show me what it does" and if they had given no numbers it'd be "I want to know the numbers! Why can't you tell me!?"

Looking it up online is a perfectly valid suggestion to a power user who wants to min max. Normal people don't need to know exactly what the percentage multiplier is between B and C, they just know that B is better. You don't need to know it to succeed at the game, so yes, it's an invalid complaint.

Deliberate actions do not translate well into the fast paced gameplay that the game typically throws you into, usually in the case of boss fights.

Precision is not a defense against blame. A keyboard that accepts inputs only when they are applied at a very specific pressure is not well designed to make mis-inputs the fault of the user - its just a crappy keyboard.

Here again is inconsistent complaining. On one hand we have "deliberate actions don't work for fast paced action!" and on the other "the controls are too precise, I need leeway!" which are at odds with each other.

And another thing, no one should be using a keyboard to play the game, they should be using a controller. The devs developed the game FOR a controller and not for a keyboard. They didn't even develop the game for PC, that only came later with a bad port that the devs admitted was bad before the game even came out because they had no experience writing things on PC.

So if you're complaining about problems that only exist in the PC version, you chose the PC version despite it knowingly being inferior.

Its not a matter of expecting to win on the first try, its a matter of expecting the game to produce shortcuts and checkpoints at locations appropriate to the number of times a first time player will need to retry - something the game does not do until so late in the game it no longer matters.

This is not a game that cares about giving you a checkpoint before a boss. The game is INTENTIONALLY uncompromising. It fully expects you to die the first time you attempt a boss. It fully expects you to repeat large sections of the game due to deaths.

It also expects you to learn from those deaths so that you succeed where you once failed.

Don't roll them too hard, you might pull something and be unable to properly express derision properly. The problem is one of internal consistency. If my character wields a dragon greatsword the same way as a black knight sword, he either has a very specific disability, or doesn't know how to use either. It makes no sense that he can hoist Smoughs hammer at all, but but has to use his entire might to swing a zweihander.

Along with the previous complaint, it sounds like you're making up your own expectations and then trying to apply them to the game world and getting mad when they don't match up. This is not the fault of the game. PEBKAC.

Um, yes, really - Note I'm playing on PC and raising the resolution makes alot of the UI blurry to the point where it's really hard to see weapon stats.

Not to mention the fact that you need to read the Wiki (is there even a manual? I have the Steam version)

You know, I'm starting to see a pattern here.

"Only.when you fail". In a game that's all about failing and learning. I DON'T mind failing. I DON'T mind a challenge. I DO MIND having to slog through 25 of the SAME TRASH MOBS every single time I get 1 or 2 shot by a boss.

Then the game isn't for you. That's ok. All games are not made for all people.

 

[Godhead]

Just a quick question, as a new player who only recently got the game to stop crashing, is min-maxing good or bad?

Captcha: Better with lunch. No captcha, death is not better with lunch.

 

[weirdee]

pff, don't listen to him, the fat roll is the best roll

 

[EvilRoy]

One or the other, not both - and certainly not when one demonstrates a desire to communicate with precision and the other demonstrates the clear opposite.

Sounds like just inconsistent complaining to me. You can easily find the numbers online if you really cared.

Actually the complaints are unrelated. In the case of vit/stam the game teaches you to measure it based on a clear visual system, and then has you upgrade based on a numerical system with no indication of how numbers translate to tick marks. Whether you use all numbers or all visuals both of these systems are precise.

For scaling the game produces a letter based system that gives an implication of differences between weapons but offers no indication of whether that difference is worth it or how it will affect gameplay in the longrun. In this case the system is both imprecise and opaque.

Even if they were inconsistent with each other, that would not make the complaints any less legitimate no matter how much you apparently wish it would. Also - "look it up on the internet" is easily the worst possible counter you could present. It is an admission that the game is communicating so poorly that a person is required to seek outside assistance.

Of course it's inconsistent complaining. On one hand it's "give me the numbers" and on the other "why did you give me numbers?"

If they had given only numbers it'd be "The numbers are too complicated just show me what it does" and if they had given no numbers it'd be "I want to know the numbers! Why can't you tell me!?"

Looking it up online is a perfectly valid suggestion to a power user who wants to min max. Normal people don't need to know exactly what the percentage multiplier is between B and C, they just know that B is better. You don't need to know it to succeed at the game, so yes, it's an invalid complaint.

You're going to give me a nosebleed trying to explain this to you.

Okay. First item: The game provides a PRECISE VISUAL method of keeping track of vit/stam during the game. And the game provides a PRECISE NUMERICAL method of upgrading those stats. This does not mesh well, because the game has trained the user to view vit/stam usage based on VISUAL cues rather than NUMERICAL cues, and the game is OPAQUE with regards to how NUMERICAL cues translate into the VISUAL cues that the player is accustomed to. Okay? Okay. Good. Now hold that in your mind, and hold it separate from what I'm about to say.

Second item: The game provides an IMPRECISE VISUAL method of keeping track of how weapons scale with stats. This is IMPORTANT to the average player because it will INFORM how they choose to upgrade weapons or which weapons they use. Since the letter grade scaling system is so OPAQUE there is no way for a new user to know whether scaling will ultimately matter to them and may thus base decisions on INCOMPLETE knowledge of the system, artificially increasing the games DIFFICULTY.

Now, third item: Consistency.

It is GOOD that both the VISUAL and NUMERICAL are PRECISE because that means that they are internally CONSISTENT. It is BAD that the VISUAL system is TRANSPARENT while the NUMERICAL system is OPAQUE because it becomes UNCLEAR how one affects the other and it is internally INCONSISTENT.

It is BAD that scaling is IMPRECISE and OPAQUE because it is listed among a number of stats that are very PRECISE and TRANSPARENT such as damage, making the stat screen internally INCONSISTENT.

So to sum up, inconsistency is bad, opacity is bad, consistency is good, transparency is good. The complaints do not contradict each other because they prize the same aspects.

Deliberate actions do not translate well into the fast paced gameplay that the game typically throws you into, usually in the case of boss fights.

Precision is not a defense against blame. A keyboard that accepts inputs only when they are applied at a very specific pressure is not well designed to make mis-inputs the fault of the user - its just a crappy keyboard.

Here again is inconsistent complaining. On one hand we have "deliberate actions don't work for fast paced action!" and on the other "the controls are too precise, I need leeway!" which are at odds with each other.

No they aren't, deliberate action does not require excessively precise controls - it doesn't require precise controls at all, just responsive ones - another game problem. In fact the complaints are largely unrelated. I could go into the same thing as above, but it already took too long and I have a feeling it won't matter anyway.

And another thing, no one should be using a keyboard to play the game, they should be using a controller. The devs developed the game FOR a controller and not for a keyboard. They didn't even develop the game for PC, that only came later with a bad port that the devs admitted was bad before the game even came out because they had no experience writing things on PC.

So if you're complaining about problems that only exist in the PC version, you chose the PC version despite it knowingly being inferior.

I'm not using a keyboard, I was drawing an analogous comparison. If you owned a keyboard that required exceptionally precise inputs or it would just output "get bent" or nothing when you hit a key, it wouldn't be a good keyboard for ensuring the owner always made the correct input, it would just be a terrible, hard to use product. Making a game require incredibly precise input does not somehow make sure the player "really really means it", it just makes it harder to input simple commands.

And my framerate from blighttown onward begs to differ on the accusation of inferiority.

Don't roll them too hard, you might pull something and be unable to properly express derision properly. The problem is one of internal consistency. If my character wields a dragon greatsword the same way as a black knight sword, he either has a very specific disability, or doesn't know how to use either. It makes no sense that he can hoist Smoughs hammer at all, but but has to use his entire might to swing a zweihander.

Along with the previous complaint, it sounds like you're making up your own expectations and then trying to apply them to the game world and getting mad when they don't match up. This is not the fault of the game. PEBKAC.

SIGH.

CONSISTENCY = GOOD. When a character model wields a MASSIVE HAMMER with relative ease, and then performs a weighty and INELEGANT attack with a weapon less than a fifth its size despite MEETING all skill requirements, the game demonstrates VISUAL INCONSISTENCY in how the character model relates to its own environment, producing an impression of ARBITRARY and POORLY thought out gameplay mechanics. INCONSISTENCY = BAD. CONSISTENCY is not a MADE UP expectation, it is a HALLMARK of a WELL MADE game.

Also, you may not have said anything, but I can still hear your eyes rolling so hard right now. You gotta watch out for muscle strain.

 

[Thanatos2k]

You're going to give me a nosebleed trying to explain this to you.

Okay. First item: The game provides a PRECISE VISUAL method of keeping track of vit/stam during the game. And the game provides a PRECISE NUMERICAL method of upgrading those stats. This does not mesh well, because the game has trained the user to view vit/stam usage based on VISUAL cues rather than NUMERICAL cues, and the game is OPAQUE with regards to how NUMERICAL cues translate into the VISUAL cues that the player is accustomed to. Okay? Okay. Good. Now hold that in your mind, and hold it separate from what I'm about to say.

Maybe I just don't understand the problem. I am able to see the bar, see the number on the stats screen, and do a mental division of the amount of bar to the amount it says on the screen. Thus when something raises stamina by 10% of what I currently have, I can imagine the bar becoming 10% bigger as well. Are others unable to do this?

Second item: The game provides an IMPRECISE VISUAL method of keeping track of how weapons scale with stats. This is IMPORTANT to the average player because it will INFORM how they choose to upgrade weapons or which weapons they use. Since the letter grade scaling system is so OPAQUE there is no way for a new user to know whether scaling will ultimately matter to them and may thus base decisions on INCOMPLETE knowledge of the system, artificially increasing the games DIFFICULTY.

And this is only something a power user would care about. Someone who wants to eke out every attack power they can. These people can look it up online. Normal players see the higher number when they pick up a weapon and equip it. Normal players don't make "builds." They increase the stats they think help them, and the weapons tell you which stats help and by which grade. If you want to know more than that, look it up. Is this some kind of pride issue? A "I beat the game without looking anything up!" personal problem?

No they aren't, deliberate action does not require excessively precise controls - it doesn't require precise controls at all, just responsive ones - another game problem. In fact the complaints are largely unrelated. I could go into the same thing as above, but it already took too long and I have a feeling it won't matter anyway.

The controls are extremely responsive. If you aren't doing something, press a button and it'll happen. If you *are* doing something there may be a delay. Some things may let you interrupt your actions. Some things are faster or slower than others. This is not unresponsive controls, this is part of the battle system and part of the core game balancing.

You can claim not to like it, like the other guy who prefers Bayonetta where he can cancel out of anything anytime and spaz all over the place. But don't claim it's a flaw. It's a different way of developing an action game and there are a great many people who prefer it this way.

I'm not using a keyboard, I was drawing an analogous comparison. If you owned a keyboard that required exceptionally precise inputs or it would just output "get bent" or nothing when you hit a key, it wouldn't be a good keyboard for ensuring the owner always made the correct input, it would just be a terrible, hard to use product. Making a game require incredibly precise input does not somehow make sure the player "really really means it", it just makes it harder to input simple commands.

Maybe as a computer programmer I've become used to a single typo causing the entire program to cease functioning and thus are used to unforgiving mechanics. Personal preference, I'd say. If I press a button to jump and fly into a pit in Megaman I don't blame Megaman. If I press a button to quicksave when I meant to quickload I don't blame the game. If I try to execute a double dragon punch motion and end up doing quarter circles forward instead I don't blame Capcom.

SIGH.

CONSISTENCY = GOOD. When a character model wields a MASSIVE HAMMER with relative ease, and then performs a weighty and INELEGANT attack with a weapon less than a fifth its size despite MEETING all skill requirements, the game demonstrates VISUAL INCONSISTENCY in how the character model relates to its own environment, producing an impression of ARBITRARY and POORLY thought out gameplay mechanics. INCONSISTENCY = BAD. CONSISTENCY is not a MADE UP expectation, it is a HALLMARK of a WELL MADE game.

Also, you may not have said anything, but I can still hear your eyes rolling so hard right now. You gotta watch out for muscle strain.

Don't call it consistency when you are very clearly projecting your own expectations onto the game and getting mad when it doesn't meet them. You think all weapons should behave the same. They don't. Deal with it.