A better protest than going vegetarian

[Blue2]

To me being vegetarian is like being in a religion. I don't care what you do, It's your body anyway but if you are making such a big deal about everything (Example: About to bite into a chicken burger and then you tell me how millions of chickens are slaughtered everyday and boohooing like a PETA member) and trying to make me a vegetarian also, That is when I lose my patients (spelling?) and just leave.

as a vegetarian, i agree with this, but both sides are guilty. i have never tried to convert someone or make someone feel bad for eating meat around me, but i think all of my friends, at some time or another, have tried to trick me into eating meat or tried to convince me to go back to eating meat.

basically what im saying is that no matter a persons diet, people are douches

I really can see what you mean, Even I think that's disrespectful but the sad thing that there will always be douches out in the world. I just hope your friends will grow up and realize what they did wrong.

 

[Rawne1980]

The silliest argument I ever got into with a vegetarian was when they said "if all the food in the world ran out, would you eat another person".

When given the choice between starvation or eating another human being then it's quite a high possibility I will be having fried Bob for supper.

Anywhoo

I care very little about what other people eat I just really wish other folk would stop ramming their beliefs, morals and customs down other peoples throats.

 

[Salad Is Murder]

as a vegetarian, i agree with this, but both sides are guilty. i have never tried to convert someone or make someone feel bad for eating meat around me, but i think all of my friends, at some time or another, have tried to trick me into eating meat or tried to convince me to go back to eating meat.

basically what im saying is that no matter a persons diet, people are douches

Oh don't be so sensitive, they're doing it for your own good. Meat is delicious and they just want to share it with you. You can go to meat heaven too, but you have to let Bacon Christ into your heart.

Like, specifically, you have to let him clog up your aorta.

 

[SilentCom]

Yeah... Gotta control the animal population, anyway... And stop eating all the oxygen-making plants, goddammit!

This argument is made of win. I'll have to use this next time I get into an argument with a die-hard vegetarian.

Also, you can argue that animals eat each other so why is it wrong for people to do so as well?

 

[Salad Is Murder]

Yeah... Gotta control the animal population, anyway... And stop eating all the oxygen-making plants, goddammit!

This argument is made of win. I'll have to use this next time I get into an argument with a die-hard vegetarian.

Also, you can argue that animals eat each other so why is it wrong for people to do so as well?

You gotta' kill to live, man.

 

[Amphoteric]

Yeah... Gotta control the animal population, anyway... And stop eating all the oxygen-making plants, goddammit!

This argument is made of win. I'll have to use this next time I get into an argument with a die-hard vegetarian.

Also, you can argue that animals eat each other so why is it wrong for people to do so as well?

If other animals don't eat meat they die out. If humans don't eat meat nothing interesting happens.

Also i'd presume most ethical vegetarians are vegetarians because they don't find the act of killing and eating another animal ethical more than the way the animal was treated.

 

[Enfid]

What turned me vegetarian was the high possibility that animals are kept at bare-minimal conditions to keep the cost low and the quality relatively high. And as several posters have alluded to, how many people actually actively find/buy free-range products anyway, when it's almost twice as expensive?

Yeah... Gotta control the animal population, anyway... And stop eating all the oxygen-making plants, goddammit!

This argument is made of win. I'll have to use this next time I get into an argument with a die-hard vegetarian.

Also, you can argue that animals eat each other so why is it wrong for people to do so as well?

You realize the only reason there are so many animals is because we domesticated them to eat their meat, and we want it cheap, so we breed them more, which leads to more numbers for us to eat, right? Saying "we need to control the population of animals that we tried to breed more for low cost" is a right paradox if I've ever seen one. We're not even talking about raising animals that require more energy and leave more carbon footprints than farming plants (IIRC).

That said, I am in no support for the so called die hard vegetarian that screams murder every time someone takes a bit of hamburger. *sigh* There's an extremist in every idea, isn't there?

 

[Falconsgyre]

I would like to start by saying that I have nothing against vegetarians. I just had a thought and decided to share it. Please don't flame.

I hear all the time that people are vegetarians because they are protesting cruel factory farming and similar practices. To me, it seems like a better protest would be to instead buy meat from sources that don't use such cruel methods, thus supporting reform in the meat industry.

Thoughts?

No. Economically, it won't make a bit of difference. As long as the number of people who eat factory farmed meat does not decrease, the number of animals who are being raised in factory farms will not decrease. If the demand remains the same, the supply won't change at all. The only way to really get rid of factory farming would be to convince a large segment of the population not to buy factory farmed meat. It doesn't matter whether they switch to being vegetarian or being ethical omnivores.

To me being vegetarian is like being in a religion. I don't care what you do, It's your body anyway but if you are making such a big deal about everything (Example: About to bite into a chicken burger and then you tell me how millions of chickens are slaughtered everyday and boohooing like a PETA member) and trying to make me a vegetarian also, That is when I lose my patients (spelling?) and just leave.

The most important difference between trying to convert someone to a religion and trying to convert someone to vegetarianism is that someone trying to convert you to a religion would be doing it for your good. Someone trying to convert you to vegetarianism would be doing it for the good of others (namely, animals). Unless they were trying to convert you to vegetarianism because they thought it would be good for your health, but I have literally never heard of anyone doing that. Treat it more like the pro-choice/pro-life arguments. While you might argue that people would be rude for bringing that up, too, it's a substantially different kind of argument than you seem to view vegetarianism as.

Also, you can argue that animals eat each other so why is it wrong for people to do so as well?

What, I shouldn't hold you to a higher moral standard than an animal? You can understand moral arguments. Animals can't.

 

[DrOswald]

I would like to start by saying that I have nothing against vegetarians. I just had a thought and decided to share it. Please don't flame.

I hear all the time that people are vegetarians because they are protesting cruel factory farming and similar practices. To me, it seems like a better protest would be to instead buy meat from sources that don't use such cruel methods, thus supporting reform in the meat industry.

Thoughts?

No. Economically, it won't make a bit of difference. As long as the number of people who eat factory farmed meat does not decrease, the number of animals who are being raised in factory farms will not decrease. If the demand remains the same, the supply won't change at all. The only way to really get rid of factory farming would be to convince a large segment of the population not to buy factory farmed meat. It doesn't matter whether they switch to being vegetarian or being ethical omnivores.

I respectfully disagree.

Lets say that one person decides to protest cruel meat farming practices. For simplicity purposes, lets assume the only two options available are to stop eating meat completely, or to only eat non-cruel meat.

The end result of both decisions will reduce the amount of cruel meat being consumed, but the second option will help fuel the competition of cruel meat industry. This additional business should help these types of company achieve economy of scale, and the additional revenue could be put to use in advertising in order to draw more meat consumers to non-cruel meat.

Basically, non-cruel meat is a substitute good to cruel meat. As non-cruel meat is more often purchased wide spread use it will become cheaper, more widely available, and better advertised. This will shift an amount of demand away from cruel meat towards non-cruel meat.

 

[synobal]

I thought most vegetarians were vegetarian out of a health decision rather than a moral one to do with animal rights. Also I think most people who don't eat meat on moral purposes consider any sort of method of acquiring meat to be cruel.

 

[Falconsgyre]

I respectfully disagree.

Lets say that one person decides to protest cruel meat farming practices. For simplicity purposes, lets assume the only two options available are to stop eating meat completely, or to only eat non-cruel meat.

The end result of both decisions will reduce the amount of cruel meat being consumed, but the second option will help fuel the competition of cruel meat industry. This additional business should help these types of company achieve economy of scale, and the additional revenue could be put to use in advertising in order to draw more meat consumers to non-cruel meat.

Basically, non-cruel meat is a substitute good to cruel meat. As non-cruel meat is more often purchased wide spread use it will become cheaper, more widely available, and better advertised. This will shift an amount of demand away from cruel meat towards non-cruel meat.

I respectfully disagree with your disagreement.

I did not consider economies of scale initially, but on second thought, I don't think it matters. The reason meat raised unethically achieves economy of scale while meat raised ethically does not is precisely because the methods used to achieve economy of scale are what constitute cruelty.

Advertising might increase consumption, but it's not something either of us could prove or disprove. All I can say is that as long as one method of production results in vastly cheaper meat, I doubt any amount of advertising is going to sway the majority of consumers. Demand won't shift measurably because the cost of ethically raised meat is much higher. The only way to shift it would be to get people to recognize that eating meat raised unethically is wrong.

 

[artanis_neravar]

I thought most vegetarians were vegetarian out of a health decision rather than a moral one to do with animal rights. Also I think most people who don't eat meat on moral purposes consider any sort of method of acquiring meat to be cruel.

The also believe that milk is bad because in order for cows to continuously produce milk, we need to constantly impregnate them, and those baby cows are then turned into veal, so supporting the milk industry supports the veal industry. My response? "Cool cause I eat veal to support the veal industry"

We are designed to eat meat as well as eating plants, so why should I stop eating what I am designed to eat? Also If we stop eating meat what happens to cows? Bos primigenius (domestic cows) would become extinct, they have no real way of surviving on their own in nature, and if a farmer can't use them for meat why keep them? Becoming a vegetarian is leading to the extinction of an entire species.....that seems pretty cruel to me.

 

[pppppppppppppppppp]

I would like to start by saying that I have nothing against vegetarians. I just had a thought and decided to share it. Please don't flame.

I hear all the time that people are vegetarians because they are protesting cruel factory farming and similar practices. To me, it seems like a better protest would be to instead buy meat from sources that don't use such cruel methods, thus supporting reform in the meat industry.

Thoughts?

While I somewhat agree with this in theory, this is by far a new concept, and it has some problems. For one, companies have noted the desire for this and introduced their own "Organic" and "Grain fed" meat products to green wash the market. Meat that is legitimately not made in a cruel assembly line is both expensive and hard to come by. While it may be a possibility in New York City or LA, you just can't find it in a suburban Texas supermarket, not to mention you can't eat meat from restaurants. That's why it's easier for me to just cut meat from the diet instead of work my ass off to find certifiably "socially conscious" meat.

It's worth noting that many vegetarians argue that there's really no un-cruel way to raise an animal for meat. Even if they live on a happy magical farm, you still have to cut their head off at some point. Personally, I'm on the edge about this line of thinking. I think the difference between eating meat now and eating meat 1,000 years ago is that not only is meat is cruelly manufactured, but that our agricultural and culinary technology has evolved to where it's not necessary to kill animals to get the nutrition we need.

 

[DrOswald]

I respectfully disagree with your disagreement.

I did not consider economies of scale initially, but on second thought, I don't think it matters. The reason meat raised unethically achieves economy of scale while meat raised ethically does not is precisely because the methods used to achieve economy of scale are what constitute cruelty.

This is not exactly true. The term economies of scale (sorry I typed it wrong before) refers to the net effect of a whole slew of factors that change the average production cost per unit as the firm expands. These can include worker specialization, large scale trade agreements, managerial benefits, technological benefits, and marketing benefits. While factory farming and similar practices are one way to achieve economies of scale, it is pretty much certain that economies of scale could be achieved using humane methods only. I admit that these methods will almost certainly be less financially efficient than factory farming, but it could partially close the gap.

Advertising might increase consumption, but it's not something either of us could prove or disprove. All I can say is that as long as one method of production results in vastly cheaper meat, I doubt any amount of advertising is going to sway the majority of consumers. Demand won't shift measurably because the cost of ethically raised meat is much higher. The only way to shift it would be to get people to recognize that eating meat raised unethically is wrong.

What if the company were to advertise specifically to appeal to the morality of the issue? This type of advertising is often used and has been proven effective.

 

[DrOswald]

While I somewhat agree with this in theory, this is by far a new concept, and it has some problems. For one, companies have noted the desire for this and introduced their own "Organic" and "Grain fed" meat products to green wash the market. Meat that is legitimately not made in a cruel assembly line is both expensive and hard to come by. While it may be a possibility in New York City or LA, you just can't find it in a suburban Texas supermarket, not to mention you can't eat meat from restaurants. That's why it's easier for me to just cut meat from the diet instead of work my ass off to find certifiably "socially conscious" meat.

It's worth noting that many vegetarians argue that there's really no un-cruel way to raise an animal for meat. Even if they live on a happy magical farm, you still have to cut their head off at some point. Personally, I'm on the edge about this line of thinking. I think the difference between eating meat now and eating meat 1,000 years ago is that not only is meat is cruelly manufactured, but that our agricultural and culinary technology has evolved to where it's not necessary to kill animals to get the nutrition we need.

Good points. I agree that in many cases it might not be possible or practical to obtain ethical meat, and in that case you are pretty much stuck going all in or nothing.

You also make good points about if meat is moral at all, but I don't feel like trying to argue either side of that point. Maybe others will care to talk about it.

 

[Findlebob]

I'm a vegetarian, well not entirely as I eat fish. Also cows, cows sheep and pigs as they live near water. In fact the only thing I won't eat are vegetables, they have no eyes or legs so they can't see you coming or run away so their totally defenceless and just sit there, at least animals have a chance.

 

[artanis_neravar]

I'm a vegetarian, well not entirely as I eat fish. Also cows, cows sheep and pigs as they live near water. In fact the only thing I won't eat are vegetables, they have no eyes or legs so they can't see you coming or run away so their totally defenceless and just sit there, at least animals have a chance.

You, are my hero. That was awesome!

 

[piratejames]

I'm a vegetarian... Not for any moral reason. I just seriously dislike the taste of the meats I have tried. I mean, I don't usually identify myself as a vegetarian though. Who knows, I might start liking it again. I don't agree with extremism on either side of the meat eater/vegetarian arguments; people are free to eat what they want, they shouldn't have to argue why.

 

[Beliyal]

DISCLAIMER: A huge-ass post ahead. Sorry for the length. I will put my responses in spoilers because otherwise, this post would consume the nearby galaxies. Also, I did not intend to pick up a fight or anything, so if some response looks like I'm doing so, blame the monitors for not showing facial expressions.

I would like to start by saying that I have nothing against vegetarians. I just had a thought and decided to share it. Please don't flame.

I hear all the time that people are vegetarians because they are protesting cruel factory farming and similar practices. To me, it seems like a better protest would be to instead buy meat from sources that don't use such cruel methods, thus supporting reform in the meat industry.

Thoughts?

Spoiler

Interesting point, although I can't say you are the first person to think of it, but I see one problem here. Once the demand for "non-cruel" meat rises, farms won't have any other choice but to get a bigger supply which will turn them into slaughterhouses again. Slaughterhouses don't exist because people love to torture animals (well, most people don't love that), they exist because they can produce enough meat for the huge demand that exist in the western world for it. I've visited the Dordogne region in France a few months back and saw large open fields with farms and cows being treated as living beings and I was happy. But those cows supply a fairly low amount of people. To supply big industries like, say, McDonald's, those farms wouldn't be sufficient and there simply is not enough place for millions of cows to lead a normal life on open fields. The only way to go to "ethical meat" is to lower the demand as a whole; not necessarily by making everyone vegetarian. Only lowering the amount of meat you eat per day would help. I can't say for you or anyone else, but my family eats meat two or three times per day; breakfast, lunch and dinner. That's unnecessary. We do it simply because we can. There are, however, places on this planet where people eat little amounts of meat per day/week and they live just fine. 3-4 times per week would be enough and would lower the demand. So, as with everything, the problem with unethical meat is in exaggerating (namely, the exaggerating of the western world). Sadly, this is a huge question that doesn't just affect animals; the problems of meat exaggeration can be seen every day with various medical problems and meat transmitted diseases (not to say there are no vegetable diseases). It is our culture and we are taught from birth what is "right" to put in our mouth and this is not going to be solved in many years to come, and definitely not on the internet. However, there will come a time when this will be a bigger problem than it is now, especially because the meat industry is a severe pollutant (not because it exists, but because too much of it exist = exaggeration is the problem, not the consumption of meat).

On topic. If they did that very logical thing they could no longer be pretentious self centred ass hats, these are the people who say "I am a veggy, I don't eat any meat ... except fish". Ah, the same fish that grow out the floor and consist of vegetation and not things that swim in water and made of meat ...

Or they try and force there choice down your throat like a jehovah's witness, you chose to stop eating meat, don't try and convert me. If you have a veggy over to eat you have to make a whole different meal just for them, it's not exact a dietary requirement like they can't eat meat, they just won't till it gets to a stage were they can't.

If a veggy is ok with eating the same meaty meal as me but without the meat there peaches by me.

Spoiler

On topic of fish; I'm a vegetarian that eats fish. When I tell people about it, some say that fish can't really be regarded as meat, and some say it can. I don't care. I'm a vegetarian because I simply do not like meat (aside from fish, as you think of it as meat). There is a significant difference though. Fish does not live in unethical environment and it is not treated unethically before death (it suffocates before death, that is true, but lives its life swimming in the sea before it ends up in the net or in the mouth of a predator. There are exceptions, I know, unnecessary inhumane killing of tuna and so on, but it's a bit more difficult to really torture every fish you catch, and a bit redundant as they die soon after leaving the water). So, that might be their reasoning if you're wondering. About forcing and all; that's ridiculous. If some veggie tried to force their lifestyle on you, he/she is a douche, just as anyone who is forcing anything on others. Don't assume we're all like that, thankfully, we're not.

However, I think most vegetarians are protesting the killing of animals for food altogether, rather than just the crueller techniques of doing so, so it doesn't really work.

Spoiler

I can't speak for others, but I do not oppose the killing. Death is not the issue in my opinion; the life of those animals is. Namely, unhealthy and inhumane conditions they live in. Small quarters, not enough place to move, constant fear and pain, dirt, piss and excrement that come along with the stress, diseases, torture (hitting and some other stuff done by humans, biting each other in fear) and so on. Of course, not every slaughterhouse is like that, but a lot of animals that are needed to supply the industry cannot logically be happy and lead a normal life when kept in a slaughterhouse; there simply is not enough space. Cram them together and all of the above happens, and it does not only hurt them, it hurts us too, because we eat things that have probably been ill, weak, filled with chemicals and certainly not as healthy as the ones living on farms. So, that's my moral issue with meat. However, it's not the first or the only reason I switched to vegetarianism.

And let's not forget about the plants here, they are living things as well. Just because you can't hear them scream when you bake a potato doesn't make it any better. If that cabbage had motility you'd better believe he'd be running from your green thumbs.

Vegetarianism is the worst kind of killing...against something that has no means to defend itself, no voice to make its cries heard and apparently has been labeled as an acceptable target by everyone.

Spoiler

I know you might be just kidding, but I'd like to address this argument nonetheless. A lot of people say "Well, you eat plants, they're living beings too!". Well, first of all, eating living beings is not my only issue. But second of all, humans are animals; we are the same type of a being, under the same kingdom and we have some characteristics that other living beings on this planet don't. Plants are a different kingdom and while the latest research does show that they do have some type of rudimentary... "feelings", there are a lot of questions to be answered. What is "painful" to a plant? Plucking an apple from the tree? Cutting the branch? Picking a potato? Stepping on the grass? But, if you pluck the apple from the tree, other apples grow back. If you cut the branch, another grows back; something which cannot be applied to extremities of animals. Plants do not have faces, voices, hearing, seeing and other senses. Can they be afraid? Can they feel the stress? And what part of a plant feels the stress? They don't have the nervous system; is it the roots that "feel"? And so on and so on. Applying this argument would mean that we have plants figured out and we don't, not in this philosophical way of determining what exactly makes them "feeling living beings". And of course, there's the other thing; we don't torture plants (aside from with pesticides, but they are not designed specifically to torture plants; and again, does it torture them or help them, removing all the pesky bugs and bacteria?). Can they even die, in our meaning of that word? Those are all interesting questions, but make little point as an argument against vegetarianism, at least for now.

Yeah... Gotta control the animal population, anyway... And stop eating all the oxygen-making plants, goddammit!

This argument is made of win. I'll have to use this next time I get into an argument with a die-hard vegetarian.

Also, you can argue that animals eat each other so why is it wrong for people to do so as well?

Spoiler

Controlling the animal population? There wouldn't be so much cows if we didn't eat them. We are the ones keeping them at this rate, because we need them. If we stopped doing so, their population would drop significantly (to a regular number I'd presume). You know, cows existed long before humans domesticated them and their numbers were reasonable.

Animals eat each other because they have no choice. Humanity is above that choice, just as we are above living naked in the savannah and drinking the dirty water from the pond filled by the rain. We also know the concept of morality and we are blessed with a global civilization and a lot of food supplements, which means, I can go to a store and buy food from the other part of the world at any given time. I do not live of what I can hunt with a few of my buddies; our diets widened and we have more choices than any other being on this planet ever had in the history of Earth. Actually, I've noticed how many people never tasted any vegetarian food, and by "vegetarian food" I don't mean a salad. A salad is an addition to any meal and not our food. When people get pass the mental barrier of "Vegetarians eat salad", they will have the opportunity to eat some really damn fine meals. And if you tried professional vegetarian food, then this does not apply to you personally, of course.

The also believe that milk is bad because in order for cows to continuously produce milk, we need to constantly impregnate them, and those baby cows are then turned into veal, so supporting the milk industry supports the veal industry. My response? "Cool cause I eat veal to support the veal industry"

We are designed to eat meat as well as eating plants, so why should I stop eating what I am designed to eat? Also If we stop eating meat what happens to cows? Bos primigenius (domestic cows) would become extinct, they have no real way of surviving on their own in nature, and if a farmer can't use them for meat why keep them? Becoming a vegetarian is leading to the extinction of an entire species.....that seems pretty cruel to me.

Spoiler

The ones with the milk issues would be vegans. Although, some vegetarians do not drink milk either, but it could be for a variety of reasons. There are people who are lactose intolerant or people who just don't like milk. I like both cow and soy milk. I do understand that the milk industry is not so kind to animals either, but there are many reasons why I chose to be a vegetarian and, again as I said before, milking animals is not bad per se, just as meat is not bad per se; exaggerating is. We drink way too much milk, while there's a lot of people who live without it just fine. Milk is not necessary for humans after fifth year; being able to drink milk after that year is actually a mutation that occurred accidentally. But, it's good and people love it. No shame there. But the industry does require some changes, just as meat industry does. And by change I don't mean complete obliteration, just so we're clear.

I already said this, but cows existed before we domesticated them, for a few thousand years actually, and in a much more cruel world. They won't go extinct, because I don't believe we'll ever really stop eating meat globally. However, if we stop eating so much of it, the cow population will decrease to normal numbers. There's so much cows only because we aggressively breed them in such quantities.

I have suggested such things to vegans/vegetarians in the past. Ussually you get some pavlov-response about how animal-friendly meat doesn't exist.

Then you ask them how many farms and slaughterhouses they have visited in their life that they can say that, and then they go quiet.

Spoiler

Why did you suggest it to them? Do you think they have been forced against their will to be vegan/vegetarian so you offered them "an escape"? That's the kind of attitude that makes their blood boil; thinking that someone knows better and that their choice is wrong, just as when a vegetarian "forces" others to stop eating meat. People choose to be vegan or vegetarian for a variety of reasons; moral, medical, religious or it's just a matter of taste or anything else you can think of. Sure, some are forced into it by their vegetarian parents, but aren't we all forced into diets by our parents? Hell, I've been forced into eating meat because our entire family does so, but it turned out that it doesn't really do me any good and simply doesn't suit my needs or tastes.

I saw animal-friendly farms as I mentioned earlier and I was happy to see them. I know they exists, but I also know it's impossible to make all meat animal-friendly, not if we keep eating it in this amounts. A few more vegetarians and a bit less exaggeration would lead to the decrease in demands, which would in turn make slaughterhouses unprofitable and which would make farms acceptable size-wise. However, I am perfectly aware that we are far, far away from something like that happening and that it would need many things to change drastically in how we treat this planet, along with how we treat our fellow humans. We won't really give perfectly happy life for all animals before we secure the same for humans (or at least something close to that).

And now this gigantic post will end. See, I'm really bored right now and I love to type. Those two combined, and things get out hand.

 

[JamesStone]

The silliest argument I ever got into with a vegetarian was when they said "if all the food in the world ran out, would you eat another person".

When given the choice between starvation or eating another human being then it's quite a high possibility I will be having fried Bob for supper.

Anywhoo

I care very little about what other people eat I just really wish other folk would stop ramming their beliefs, morals and customs down other peoples throats.

How to stop people to act like total douches, hein? Please tell me if you have any sucess, I want to be the first one to celebrate. After you, of course.