A better protest than going vegetarian

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

A nice, logical and well thought out argument.
However I don't see it convincing many (if any) vegetarians to pick up a few packs of free range meat anytime soon.

Got it in one, for two reasons;

A. Apart from people like PETA, do people actually GIVE a shit if their chicken was killed with a knife alive or dead?

PETA may be a lot of things, but logical they aren't.

Some veggies think its inhumane to eat things that aren't human. Not to imply they eat actual humans, they might, many veggies are Humanitarians. You may have guessed I like to taunt them somewhat. When I order a Veggie burger, I always ask for bacon on it. I have had both "free range" and "caged" meat before, and to be honest the fear and terror experienced by the caged animals makes the meat taste that extra bit sweeter.

But nah, no matter how well the animals are treated there will always be vocal minorities who scream that meat is murder and then douse you with red paint.

 

[Robert Ewing]

If vegetarians are trying to save animals, therefore increasing their population... Then why are they eating all their food?

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

A nice, logical and well thought out argument.
However I don't see it convincing many (if any) vegetarians to pick up a few packs of free range meat anytime soon.

P.s.: I'm an omnivore.

As a side note. I don't think anyone in this thread is a carnivore, well unless their diet consists of meat and nothing but meat. (i.e. no dairy, no bread, no rice/pasta/other starchy foods.)

besides buns for the hamburger, i am very very very close to being a god damn carnivore 40 weeks of the year, i eat nothing but steak/roast/hamburger/tacos/chicken


fucking love meat.

OT: Meh alot of the time animals get stampeded/eaten/killed by its own kind/other animals, they don't show it or really bring it into alot of analysis but it does happen, so i just join in on the meat eating and make sure the other animals don't take the good stuff.

 

[blankedboy]

That goes for some vegetarians, but others are just against eating meat full stop. Which kinda voids your idea.

 

[artanis_neravar]

The also believe that milk is bad because in order for cows to continuously produce milk, we need to constantly impregnate them, and those baby cows are then turned into veal, so supporting the milk industry supports the veal industry. My response? "Cool cause I eat veal to support the veal industry"

We are designed to eat meat as well as eating plants, so why should I stop eating what I am designed to eat? Also If we stop eating meat what happens to cows? Bos primigenius (domestic cows) would become extinct, they have no real way of surviving on their own in nature, and if a farmer can't use them for meat why keep them? Becoming a vegetarian is leading to the extinction of an entire species.....that seems pretty cruel to me.

Spoiler

The ones with the milk issues would be vegans. Although, some vegetarians do not drink milk either, but it could be for a variety of reasons. There are people who are lactose intolerant or people who just don't like milk. I like both cow and soy milk. I do understand that the milk industry is not so kind to animals either, but there are many reasons why I chose to be a vegetarian and, again as I said before, milking animals is not bad per se, just as meat is not bad per se; exaggerating is. We drink way too much milk, while there's a lot of people who live without it just fine. Milk is not necessary for humans after fifth year; being able to drink milk after that year is actually a mutation that occurred accidentally. But, it's good and people love it. No shame there. But the industry does require some changes, just as meat industry does. And by change I don't mean complete obliteration, just so we're clear.

I already said this, but cows existed before we domesticated them, for a few thousand years actually, and in a much more cruel world. They won't go extinct, because I don't believe we'll ever really stop eating meat globally. However, if we stop eating so much of it, the cow population will decrease to normal numbers. There's so much cows only because we aggressively breed them in such quantities.

I would like to start off by thanking you for giving me a real thorough answer, with attempts at insulting me. And I would like to clarify my extinction point. Yes cows were around before we domesticated them, but it's the very fact that we did domesticate them that puts them at risk, if we bread out to much survival instincts it could present a problem, just like how (some?) scientists believe that dogs (certain breeds?) will be the first animals to go extinct once humans die out. We have breed into them such a dependence and acceptance of humans that it makes them easier targets for predators and much less likely to be able to fend for themselves in the wild. Although I do admit cows are better fit to survive without then dogs, but it is still a chance.

 

[Falconsgyre]

This is not exactly true. The term economies of scale (sorry I typed it wrong before) refers to the net effect of a whole slew of factors that change the average production cost per unit as the firm expands. These can include worker specialization, large scale trade agreements, managerial benefits, technological benefits, and marketing benefits. While factory farming and similar practices are one way to achieve economies of scale, it is pretty much certain that economies of scale could be achieved using humane methods only. I admit that these methods will almost certainly be less financially efficient than factory farming, but it could partially close the gap.

Maybe. At the very least, I guess it would save on the administrative side and a lot of small farms forming their own corporation does increase their reach. But a lot of free-range type people do that already, and the extra costs involved in the ethical raising of animals often stem from rejecting technological enhancements (at least of a specific sort). In the end, I don't see any real change happening unless a lot of citizens change their mind about the morality of the matter, which makes this a more or less neutral choice overall.

What if the company were to advertise specifically to appeal to the morality of the issue? This type of advertising is often used and has been proven effective.

Possibly. When you say that, though, the things that immediately spring to mind are the notoriously ineffective PETA advertisements. However, I admit that Chipotle's claims about their products, for example, definitely got me to eat there more, so it would depend on the specific situation.

 

[Plucky]

Why not take it a step further, sure as Humans, it might be hard to change our perceptions and habits, if people don't want to stop eating meat, they could at least reduce waste food or something, a lot of the time, animals are either killed or mass producing the very items we're eating, reducing the amount of food we're wasting is probably doing less damage to the world overall than other things...like littering.

A bit layered here. :x

 

[omega 616]

If a veggy is ok with eating the same meaty meal as me but without the meat there peaches by me.

On topic of fish; I'm a vegetarian that eats fish. When I tell people about it, some say that fish can't really be regarded as meat, and some say it can. I don't care. I'm a vegetarian because I simply do not like meat (aside from fish, as you think of it as meat). There is a significant difference though. Fish does not live in unethical environment and it is not treated unethically before death (it suffocates before death, that is true, but lives its life swimming in the sea before it ends up in the net or in the mouth of a predator. There are exceptions, I know, unnecessary inhumane killing of tuna and so on, but it's a bit more difficult to really torture every fish you catch, and a bit redundant as they die soon after leaving the water). So, that might be their reasoning if you're wondering. About forcing and all; that's ridiculous. If some veggie tried to force their lifestyle on you, he/she is a douche, just as anyone who is forcing anything on others. Don't assume we're all like that, thankfully, we're not.[/quote]

just give a little read over that line I left in my quotes, thank yoop.

You think suffocating is an ok way to die? Pigs and cows get an electric bolt shot into there skull which they don't feel only then are they killed. Fish die far more painfully than pigs or cows do! Fish are caught in a massive net, which can't exactly be relaxing (which is already worse than a pig which is just herded), there then pulled up out of the water making even less room to move, then while your being squashed your now suffocating, your then ungracefully dropped into the hold below decks, were your stabbed and guts removed.

So if you live up to the stab your going through a pretty fucking awful time!

Free range cows live in a big ass field doing as they please, put in a truck, funneled into a room then bolted, instead coma so they have no clue what coming next.

If I had the choice of being a fish or a cow you better believe I will pick cow!

Plus since petrol has stopped using lead in it, grass by roads is a lot better for cows, especially since cows fertilize the fields live in. Fish are swimming round in all kinds of polluted water, granted parts per billion wise is a tiny number but I would still say it's worse than grass.

If a fish isn't made of meat, what is it made of? It's certainly not plant matter, which means it's not a plant.

Your talking about battery animals, the ones living in tiny ass cages with fuck all lighting and they have never even seen grass or the sun. Why not buy free range meat? for the reasons I listed above, lives a great life doing as it pleases in the great out doors, the only sucky bit doesn't even suck that much.

 

[Thedayrecker]

Except it's too much work to figure out who is who, and usually "organic" stuff is more expensive, when you could just not eat any meat, and save money up for tofurkey.

 

[Pat8u]

think of it this way if you eat meat your helping the environment if you eat only plants your destroying the environment (pesticides) then again those cows were bred for meat so eating meat could do more harm but let me tell you this animals (Also Humans are animals) fart methane the less animals the less methane

 

[Beliyal]

Why did you suggest it to them? Do you think they have been forced against their will to be vegan/vegetarian so you offered them "an escape"?

No, I just think they're sheltered naive people who have little understanding of the topic, while still presuming to judge over it, and even judge others over it. For some reason vegans never seem capable of going without a whole superiorist condemning attitude.

The fact that most vegetarians I ever met are people who were naive to the point where they make my skin crawl probably doesn't help either.

Hell, I've been forced into eating meat because our entire family does so, but it turned out that it doesn't really do me any good and simply doesn't suit my needs or tastes.

That has nothing to do with your parents, but everything with you being a human being. Being a vegetarian is very unhealthy.

And before we get a very predictable defensive response (casually dismissing meat as unnecessary is actually one of the things that agrevate me about typical vegetarian attitudes): Yes, this is true. Someone who doesn't consume any of the essential nutrients found in meat will quickly develop Anemia, mostly from iron deficiency, because meat is quite simply the only real source of that, and the meat-based variation is also much easier to absorb.

I'm sure there are sheltered and naive people (mostly among teenagers who just jump into it and think they're morally superior), but you're underestimating the sheer number of vegetarian people in the world and how many reasons there are for being vegetarian. I do not deny that there are those with the condemning attitude, but there are that kind of people everywhere. It's not exclusive to vegetarians. I've witnessed the exact opposite; people who eat meat and condemn the ones who don't without knowing their reasons. I'm sad that all the vegetarians you met were the obnoxious ones.

I've been eating meat until I was 19 years old (I'll be 23 in less than a month). I never really liked it, but I ate it because everyone ate it. When I was a bit younger I thought about trying out vegetarian food, but I realized that I'm far too young to mess with my diet and I was kinda scared, honestly. The feeling of familiarity of eating meat was something I didn't want to be gone. However, I'm anaemic; iron deficiency, exactly what you mentioned. I've been diagnosed with it when I was 13/14; it was really bad, doctors kept asking me how I can walk. I was sick all the time and felt weak. They also kept asking me if I was a vegetarian, which I was not and it baffled them. After quite a bit of tests, the conclusion was; it was just hereditary (my mom and her mother were also anaemic) and my body is just like that. I got pills and got better, but my anaemia will always be present, one way or another. But, I switched to vegetarianism and nothing happened. My anaemia is not worse and I actually feel better than before; although I still have iron deficiency, I do not feel weak and it will take some time for me to remember when was the last time I was sick. Call me a medical phenomenon (or call it bullshit), but there it is. For 19 years I've been struggling with this sickness, and then suddenly, gone. Also, since I've stopped eating meat, I've stopped having period pains, and those were some pains. I couldn't leave the house for two days and I was having a higher temperature for a week before my period. All gone since I've stopped eating meat. That alone set my determination to never put meat in my mouth again, at the cost of having to take pills for anaemia for the rest of my life. Not being able to leave the house for two days and having a temperature for a week every month for another 30 years is something I gladly gave away and it was a damn fine trade. We can argue that it is all just in my head and that not eating meat is not the cause, but I am medically more stable than ever, so I don't see the problem. Although, I am aware of the possible medical issues with being vegetarian or vegan, but if you know what you're doing, you can avoid those issues. Things are really not so black and white here. And meat is not the only iron [http://pediatrics.about.com/od/nutrition/a/06_iron_foods.htm] rich [http://www.weightlossforall.com/iron-rich-food.htm] food [http://www.healthaliciousness.com/articles/food-sources-of-iron.php] out there.

snip

No, suffocating is definitely not a better way to die; but which way to die is "better"? It's completely a subjective view. I'd say that examining the way of life is much more important. Death does only occur in an instant, with a minute or two of delay, if you're lucky. And cows in slaughterhouses are certainly not lucky in how they spend their lives, while fish is slightly more lucky (if they don't get eaten by something before running into a net). Living in fear, stress, pain and piss and be lucky to avoid being beaten or bit by other scared animals is no way comparable to swimming in the sea without constraint. But, both types of animals certainly do not live the most gracious of lives, especially if we apply the pollution of water you mentioned and other things.

Now, I'm am NOT justifying the killing of fish. Fish is certainly not a plant and it certainly feels pain. But I'm am not a strict moral vegetarian. If you don't have second thoughts about eating a cow, I don't have a second thought about eating a fish. I do not think I'm morally or ethically better than anyone else on the planet. I just really don't like any other meat. Okay, maybe poultry, but I can live without that. And yes, I was talking about battery animals as you called them. You mentioned free range cows and I saw that type of farms and it's awesome and I'd advise people to buy that meat, not only because of animals, but because it probably is more healthy than meat from slaughterhouses. And if I get back to eating meat, I'd be trying to buy that kind of meat, for sure.

I would like to start off by thanking you for giving me a real thorough answer, with attempts at insulting me. And I would like to clarify my extinction point. Yes cows were around before we domesticated them, but it's the very fact that we did domesticate them that puts them at risk, if we bread out to much survival instincts it could present a problem, just like how (some?) scientists believe that dogs (certain breeds?) will be the first animals to go extinct once humans die out. We have breed into them such a dependence and acceptance of humans that it makes them easier targets for predators and much less likely to be able to fend for themselves in the wild. Although I do admit cows are better fit to survive without then dogs, but it is still a chance.

Okay, that is true in a way; animals became dependent and there is no space for cows in the wild. It would be a problem if we just abandoned their domestication. But I don't think it'll ever happen. We'll probably always need them for something, and keep their population at numbers that we need. Just letting them go into the wild would be irresponsible and pretty stupid. As I said, I don't think completely abandoning meat globally would really be that wise, but just cutting down on the amounts we consume would make a significant difference. We'd still need them all, just not so much of them. It's a long way to go, though, and not really the world's priority right now.

 

[Haagrum]

I hear all the time that people are vegetarians because they are protesting cruel factory farming and similar practices. To me, it seems like a better protest would be to instead buy meat from sources that don't use such cruel methods, thus supporting reform in the meat industry.

Thoughts?

I am vegetarian (well, technically a pescatarian) and my reasons for being one have little to do with animal cruelty. There are solid economic and environmental reasons for vegetarianism as well.

If animal cruelty was my only basis for my decision, then your argument would be enough to convince me. In fact, it was precisely this argument which kept me eating some meats and directing my patterns of purchase for about 2-3 years before I went vegetarian. Voting with your wallet is one of the best ways to encourage change in industry practices. As DrOswald has mentioned, though, it takes time for consumer pressures to shift industry practices, and the intensive production methods are able to generate more meat per dollar at a lower financial cost to the consumer. If the market is less concerned with how the meat is produced than with how much it costs, there's no incentive for change (outside of a niche market). The same goes for fishing practices, although the West seem to be more concerned with dolphins than preserving fish stocks (at a general level, at least).

I can see how being vegetarian while advocating change in meat production industries could be construed as hypocritical. However, I am more concerned with the manner and the consequences of mass production of meat than I am with animal cruelty (which, in Australia, is generally less of an issue). At our present levels of consumption, the world will not be able to sustain the increasing demand for meat. Meat requires far more resources to produce than an equivalent amount of vegetables. I hardly see how someone can advocate for reform while insisting on a higher standard of conduct than they hold themselves to.

I'm not against killing and eating animals - it happens every day, it's part of the cycle. It's only "cruel" if the process of killing is made more painful and distressing than is necessary (IMHO), and what is "necessary" will usually depend on where someone is. What I am opposed to is the sanitisation of the processes in the Western mind. People who give up meat because they can't handle the thought of the slaughtering and butchering processes are at least being honest with themselves (as are those who know and accept it, rather than continuing to disassociate the two).

 

[Falconsgyre]

Also If we stop eating meat what happens to cows? Bos primigenius (domestic cows) would become extinct, they have no real way of surviving on their own in nature, and if a farmer can't use them for meat why keep them? Becoming a vegetarian is leading to the extinction of an entire species.....that seems pretty cruel to me.

This argument's actually got a certain amount of merit to it, but you need to consider a couple things. First, this is really only going to apply if the animal's life is going to be a decent one. It can't justify factory farming conditions, unless you feel that existing in constant pain is preferable to not existing at all (something which most people would probably disagree with you on). Second, this line of argument won't apply to anyone who doesn't agree with the statement "the ends justify the means" and who simply denies that it's ethical to kill animals for something as trivial as steak. If it's wrong to kill animals for that reason, it's wrong to kill animals, and that's that.

 

[Falconsgyre]

think of it this way if you eat meat your helping the environment if you eat only plants your destroying the environment (pesticides) then again those cows were bred for meat so eating meat could do more harm but let me tell you this animals (Also Humans are animals) fart methane the less animals the less methane

Think of it this way: if you don't eat meat at all, you're about 10 times more efficient in terms of land usage. It takes a lot of energy to raise an animal and slaughter it for meat Eating meat is a grossly inefficient way to obtain calories in a modern setting.

 

[Haagrum]

But nah, no matter how well the animals are treated there will always be vocal minorities who scream that meat is murder and then douse you with red paint.

And yet, inexplicably, wouldn't do the same thing to members of motorbike gangs wearing black leather...

Of course, there will always be vocal minorities who enjoy trolling others for their beliefs while never questioning their own. The best response is simply to agree to disagree.

...although I'll admit, some people are just zealots who frankly need to be mocked.

 

[kebab4you]

As a side note. I don't think anyone in this thread is a carnivore, well unless their diet consists of meat and nothing but meat. (i.e. no dairy, no bread, no rice/pasta/other starchy foods.)

I bake my meat and mix it in the blender and drink it along side with my 2Kg steak, problem?!

OT: Seems like a hell of a lot better idea since at least you´re showing you´re willing to buy meat as long as no animals had a cruel life&death.

 

[omega 616]

snip

I would rather be shot in the head without me knowing it's coming that be drowned, which is just the opposite for fish. So yeah, there are better ways to die, not knowing it's coming is better than enduring a few moments of struggling to breathe.

"Death does only occur in an instant, with a minute or two of delay, if you're lucky", it's not instant then. A fish struggles by flopping about, a cow gets a bolt to the head and drops into unconsciousness then gets killed, it has no idea other than feeling the tip of the bolt gun on it's head before the bolt is fired.

I am pretty sure if asked 1,000 people which they would prefer, most (if not all) would say the cow way rather than the fish. It's not a lesser life 'cos it swims and you think it lives better.

Like I said battery cows don't like good lives but you never commented on the free range cows who live outside almost constantly from birth, eating nothing but grass. You even said it yourself "especially if we apply the pollution of water you mentioned and other things" free range cows live better lives than fish and there death is quicker and less painful or stressful.

You can eat what you like and call yourself what you like, I can call myself a female but it isn't true. The definition of a veggy is "I won't eat meat but will consume animal products" fish is made of meat, so eating fish meat is not being a veggy. I'm not attacking you just the fallacy that "I don't eat meat ... except fish", unless somebody can tell me why a fish isn't meat I will stand by that point.

A fish has a heart beat, it mates like animals, it thinks, it has instincts beyond (lets aim for the sun), it has muscles and tendons, everything about it is meat and flesh ... it is classified as an animal, so eating it stops you from being a veggy.

If you want to call yourself a part time veggy, then sure I can go with that but eating a fish and claiming to be a veggy doesn't make sense.

 

[Beliyal]

snip

snip

What you said all stands. I get what you mean and it's a horrifying death (I am terrified of drowning, personally), but I didn't compare the life or death of a fish with free range cows, but with the battery cows, the ones who suffer their entire lives in a slaughterhouse. And I did address free range cows, here: "You mentioned free range cows and I saw that type of farms and it's awesome and I'd advise people to buy that meat, not only because of animals, but because it probably is more healthy than meat from slaughterhouses. And if I get back to eating meat, I'd be trying to buy that kind of meat, for sure."" I am happy when cows are bred like that, it's how it should be everywhere. Unfortunately, it's not like that in most cases. I'll say again that I'm not against killing animals or eating meat, but only when that is done in the most humane way possible and while assuring the animal will have a decent life. If we could obey the "rules" of humane treatment and humane killing (like it is done on animal-friendly farms), I don't think anyone but the most annoying and obnoxious people would protest.

Also, there are various types [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism#Varieties_of_vegetarianism] of vegetarians. I just use that word to simplify posting. Technically, I'd be a pescetarian. Which is a very stupid word and I'm not sure how many people are aware of the varieties, so I just say "I'm a vegetarian, except I eat fish" (others do that for similar reasons, although some people dismiss fish as meat. I have no idea what is their reasoning). As a matter of fact I usually just say "I don't eat any meat other than fish", as this term "vegetarian" has some socially negative stereotypes attached to it ("crazy PETA activist that throws meat out of people's plates" stereotype). I am a pescetarian for many reasons, moral ones being just one small branch of them. All things considered, I love fish, it helps me stay healthy and living in a Mediterranean country, it's a big part of our lifestyle and culture (and we have healthy fish farming, not the industrial kind), which are just three things I can remember right now that outweigh the fact that fish dies a horrible death, while living a relatively stress, pain and fear free life. It's not perfect and fish are still living beings though. Sometimes I feel sorry, but I try not to exaggerate or waste any of it.

 

[Ghengis John]

Oh don't be so sensitive, they're doing it for your own good. Meat is delicious and they just want to share it with you. You can go to meat heaven too, but you have to let Bacon Christ into your heart.

Like, specifically, you have to let him clog up your aorta.

This is my favorite quote of the entire thread, (so far). You seem like a very intelligent person. Now I wish I had something equally clever and humorous to add myself, but sadly I lack any strong feelings one way or the other. So I'll simply add: Kudos.

We are, in theory, hunters - our direct ancestors hunted animals, cooked and ate their meat. No scavenging unless dire circumstances emerged

I have to wonder what you mean here. Humans were scavengers before they ever were hunters. Even the most basic (and incredible) form of hunting, Persistence Hunting, still required a spear. We were scavengers for so long in fact that fresh red meat actually tastes bad to us even today. Which is why butchers will age meat on a hook anywhere from 3 days to three weeks. And I don't think our ancestors would have passed on a corpse if they found one, even after hunting came into common practice. If you just meant we're capable of more than scavenging that I understand.

 

[orangeapples]

My main problem with vegetarians (mostly the Vegans) is how they try to disguise their vegetables as meat.

There was some group of people on campus giving away free hot dogs, and I figured, free hot dog, why not? So I got one, took a bite and immediately spat it out and said, "This has got to be the worst hot dog I have ever had. What is this?" Then the people explained to me that they were actually giving away free vegetarian hot dogs and would inform people after they had finished that fake meat can taste just as good as regular meat. I then told them that it has been a massive failure.

If I'm promised meat I want meat, and if I'm promised vegetables I'm expecting vegetables. Would you eat a stick of celery if it was made of ground beef? No (okay, so a few of you might). Likewise, I do not want a hot dog made of mashed vegetables and meat flavoring.

I think the only exception is Tofu. I had tofu burger... That is also weird. Tofu is great; when cooking with something like ground beef, you can get away with a mix of half ground beef and half ground tofu and no one will know what you did (similar texture and the meat flavor will overpower the tofu), but if you go all tofu it is really obvious.