A little advice about one of our players...

[Jitters Caffeine]

I'm sort of curious about what people think about my Character, do you think it at least sounds plausible? Im Paladin 5/Kensai 8/Pious Templar 7. I think it the classes fit together well, and I'm built as our Tank and Mage-Slayer with a Magebane Crossbow and Dispelling Longsword

 

[JoesshittyOs]

Uhh... tell them your character was possessed by the Devil and forced you to kill him.

Or, take him out back and cook him into a pie.

Or.... Have his character make a sacrifice that saves the whole team. Let him think it was important.

I have no idea how this game works, so I personally think you should cook him into a pie.

 

[Bvenged]

Be so lawful to report him for murder to the guards. Or keep flooding his inventory with your "gifts". OR run ahead of him to "save" him and try to land him in a difficult situation.

 

[Polarity27]

Sounds like your DM should have stepped in for some time. Still, talking things over is never a bad idea.

The easiest thing for him to do is to simply disallow whatever rules combo exploit the powergamer is using in his build. He's DM, so he has the final say on the rules and their interpretation. That might make the powergamer quit though.

My advice is to get the DM to create encounters that are hard to solve with a flurry of daggers. Perhaps encounters that can't be won through combat or that require a more creative solution than 'throw daggers till things die'. I can imagine a strong grappler can really ruin that powergamer's day.

Unfortunately, our DM is a little too afraid to step on people's toes, and he thinks that rules kind of defeat the spirit of D&D. He's more passive aggressive in his schemes to dick us over, like he won't just tell the person to quit being a dick to everyone, but he would probably hit us with a "a rock falls and kills everyone" bullshit trap if he gets too frustrated.

Sounds like a classic case of Geek Fallacies. I'd suggest googling that term and showing the article to your GM. He can be firm with this player without the fun-killing conflict that he fears, he just needs to stop putting his own conflict aversion over his duty as a GM-- that being to provide a fun experience for *all* his players. If he can't manage to pull this guy aside and talk to him, it won't matter what system he uses or what encounters he uses, somebody is going to go home unhappy.

 

[Syzygy23]

Alright, I'm having an issue with one of my fellow players in our D&D campaign. Basically, he's making our game not fun. Every encounter boils down to him hurling a hail of daggers down on the enemies from the sky, doing something crazy like 30d6 damage to everything, and ending the fight with just a few rounds. He's turned the game into his own personal Anime with him as the wisecracking protagonist.

Now my question is this, what should my course of action be? I'm not the DM so I can't crush him with rocks, and I'm Lawful Good so I can't plot to secretly murder him. I would be fine if he would just let every one play, but sometimes whole encounters are over before the last person can even act.

So far, my plan is to ask our DM to instill a few rules and restrictions. Because we're all getting really frustrated and our DM is threatening to switch systems on us.

Has anyone who's faced a similar problem with a spotlight stealing powergamer that has some friendly advice?

Tell your GM he needs to get OLD TESTAMENT on this munchkins ass. Dungeons filled with inescapable traps that only lead to more inescapable traps that WORK FASTER. He needs to throw some ethereal enemies in the mix, the kind immune to ALL PHYSICAL DAMAGE. What's that? His hail of daggers only ENRAGED the ghosts, and now he faces imminent ectoplasmic deflowering? Yeah, suddenly he realizes this ISN'T some anime fantasy, he CANNOT handle the negative modifier to his acrobatics skill as he slides down the greased pit into the clacking maw(s) of the Flesh Beetle Swarm... well, he can't handle it ALONE at least. He better hope the Bard is willing to sing his Song of Legendary Alacrity so he doesn't botch that acro roll.

Don't give him any quarter, otherwise this minmaxing weeaboo fucktard will find a way to always roll crits on FUN ITSELF.

Reminds me of how I dealt with my own Munchkin. We were playing Dark Heresy (the TTRPG equivalent of Warhammer 40k where you play as normal humans in the service of the Inquisition)

Everyone so far has proved very complimentary to eachothers abilities, they manage to scrape through MANY difficult encounters by sheer teamwork and clever thinking. Then along comes the Munchkin, and he brings in his Nobleborn Scum Character, "Havelock Von Fulcrim", which, over the course of 3 game sessions everyone too to calling "Havelock Von Buttfuck", due to the fact that he would not, read, WOULD NOT (not could not) roleplay for shit, and expected his retardedly gimped stats and dice roll modifiers to compensate for this fact. This guy actually BELIEVED he could roll high enough on his Charm to get out of trouble for killing 3 children of minor nobility in BROAD DAYLIGHT, in a BUSY METROPOLITAN AREA, literally 20 feet away from the Adeptus Arbitres (Space police/Judge Dredd fanclub) This inevitably got the entire party into messy situations they would otherwise never have gotten into. Not only that, but the player of this Buttfuck character would go behind my back and READ THE ADVENTURE BOOKS to gain an advantage over everyone else, and try to use his knowledge of the books to make it look like he was indispensable to the team and their survival at large.

So what did I do?

OLD.
MOTHERFUCKING.
TESTAMENT.

Not all minmaxers are munchkins, but all munchkins are minmaxers. That means they wil lhave at the minimum, 1 or 2 stats that are very weak. This is where you attack them, in the one place they can do fuck all about, and it's the place that hurts the most. For example, the Havelock character, he had dumped and focused all his experience points into Toughness (Constitution) Wounds (HP) Fellowship (Charisma) Agility (Dexterity) and Ballistics (Skill with guns) and bought as many perks as he could to fortify these skills while also negating and boosting his ability to dual wield pistols (Don't get me started on the dual pistol wielding, EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER this guy makes, or has ever made, has always dual wielded either scimitars or pistols)

All his other stats (Intelligence, toughness, and willpower, most notably willpower) were mediocre or outright shitastic.

So I threw Daemons at them. Daemons that possess people. Daemons that possess people based on opposed willpower tests. The rest of the party had little to moderate difficulty with this, and Havelock did as well as I expected. Havelocks player threw a ragefit, I told him "Maybe you should think less about minimizing weaknesses and more about characters with good roleplay potential."

But he didn't listen, and went on to create clones of his Havelock character when they all inevitably died, and became the buttmonkey of our group, forever an unwitting jester, never learning from his mistakes, only ever making a SLIGHT change to his attitude when the entire group confronted him, dropping all pretense and telling him straight up to spend more time reading background lore and less time combing the rulebooks with a magnifying glass looking for loopholes to give him that extra +10 to whatever. So I continued with the OLD TESTAMENT style of GMing, everyone had fun except the poor Munchkin, who wouldn't listen to the rest of us.

TL;DR : GM should go OLD TESTAMENT on the Munchkin. He'll either learn his lesson and be a team player/better roleplayer and everyone will have fun, or he'll never learn and become the groups buttmonkey, forever ridiculed. Everyone EXCEPT him will have fun, but that's his fault for not changing to accommodate other people besides himself, so your conscience is clean.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

You could go into a cave or dungeon or something do his flying ability would be nerfed then blast him with some spell he's weak against, like Illusion.

Are there paralysis spells? What field are they under? (I don't know DnD that well) It could be pretty funny to have him frozen on the sidelines for the fights. Or hit him while he's in the air and have him take fall damage. Enemy mage: 'Oh, you're 300 ft in the air?' ZAP! 'Terminal velocity *****.' SPLAT.

Or you could send your group through a meat grinder like the one in Spoony's video (already linked in thread), but this might kill everyone, so might not be the best idea. :/

Or your DM could grow a pair and literally drop a bridge on him. Or bring a can of deus ex whoopassia down on him.

There ARE paralysis spells, and they WOULD be incredibly useful since they need Will saves to negate I Belive.

Aaaaaand that seals it! There truly is no hope. Your 30d6 is no exaggeration, it's actually an understatement. Forbid the race, possibly ban the player. I think I can kind of conceptualize what he's doing now, and it's pure bullshit.

What levels are you and what is the parties general make up? But generally DR fucks with someone with many attacks that do a little damage each. Targettig his bad saves should take him out or just use a spell that's "no save just suck" Maze is a great choice for such a spell against a low int foe. Strong winds also fuck with throwers (and are especially bad for flying throwers) and finally if he's using precision damage then undead, oozes, construct, anyone with uncanny dodge or anyone with a miss chance is immune to it.

But remember this if someone that is not a full casting spellcaster thinks that he's a big shot you can always use magic to take him down a notch (full casters rule supreme in 3.5)

We're starting at 6, I'm a Paladin/Kensai, he's a Scout/Master Thrower at the moment, we've also got a Druid/Sorcerer who's going into Arcane Hierophant, a HexBade who's still kinda finding his niche, and a WarMage.

Are you familiar with Skirmish damage? It's like the precision and sneak attack damage except you have to move at least 30ft first. He uses his ability to move vertically as his required 30ft for the damage boost.

First, I think it was ten feet, or two squares. Second, I freaking love the Paladin Kensai build and shall now proceed to give you mad props, whatever that means.
Back to skirmish, the problem I have with this build the guy is using is that without skirmish's natural check of having to move on land it gets too powerful. From what I've read the book is saying, it seems that the scout gets to apply the damage to each hit, which is terrible. I still love the class because it is a well rounded and powerful non-caster, but this guy is totally being a dick. But now that I know you guys are playing at sixth level I can give you what may be some good news. The guy's gonna get screwed over in weapons. He needs a buttload of enchanted daggers to keep up with an average archer build, and that is a very good way the DM can keep him down later, by limiting his access to enchanted daggers. He may still have to throw some counters at the guy every now and then, but limiting his number of enchanted daggers should work in the long run. For now though, he will remain broken as all hell because he probably just got the ability to throw two or three daggers in a turn. The number of dagger he can throw would be some good information, actually.

Unfortunately, he has the Gloves of Infinite Daggers or some related bullshit. Basically an infinite supply of ethereal daggers.

This individual is clearly a grade A munchkin then. There is no hope. He must be ejected from the group. Anyone who thinks a build through that far is no longer an optimizer and is way too far gone. I really hope he just read about this build and some website and really has no clue what he's doing, but that is unlikely. So, how many knives can he throw in a single turn right now?

I think he said at level 12 he'll be throwing something like 8 daggers, all at different targets and they have a chance to trip or disarm, and if he's diving from the air, he gets a charge bonus plus two talon attacks from his StormTalon class

Storm talon is how he's getting there. It lets him throw daggers with his feet. Master Thrower I believe gives him multi-shot, the gloves five him infinite daggers, skirmish triples his damage output as long as he can move, and flying makes it so ha can use skirmish anywhere without a ceiling. Unless he is constantly under the effects of mind affecting abilities, he will be killing everything that moves.

Edit: I think I should add that my group never powergames. I also have no clue how that top paragraph got up there. I thought I erased it.

Honestly I think I'd be okay with his character if he changed one thing, the race. I think a big issue is with the vertical he has as a flying race. If he was, let's say a Halfling, he could keep his classes except Stormtalon and he could play EXACTLY the same way, and it would make WAY more sense since he's wanting to be a wisecracking smart ass. StormTalons are a hard nosed military group, not wisecracking assholes. Know who are generally wisecracking assholes? Halflings. What do Halflings get? Halfling Skip Rocks. Which sounds like a WAY better weapon for a Master Thrower.

You're probably right, and after having read up on the classes it looks like he is a bit of a failure as a munchkin. Not only are there aparently better builds, but his build doesn't even work. The gauntlets actually only give him one dagger a turn and five may be +3 while the rest are normal. He needs seven levels of scout before he can become a master thrower (+5 bab before taking up the class), and the charge thing the guy above said. The guy probably has no clue what he's doing and just feels like he needs to be the center of attention. Not letting him be the race should honestly be enough.

He's taking 8 levels in Scout before going into Master Thrower. But now I have a question, would the Scout's "Flawless Stride" class ability work while flying? He's saying he's immune to things like heavy wind effects and having to avoid trees in dense forest because the ability says he moves across terrain without impedement.

Literally, it would work, but considering that the ability already makes exceptions for climbing and swimming, probably not. Guy really sounds like a munchkin in training, especially considering how many convenient mistakes he's made.

That's incredibly Lame. I REALLY wish he would just play Halfling. But he is just dead set on playing a goddamn bird person, he wants his own personal anime where he can be the wisecracking, Captain Do-Everything. He absolutely HATES Halflings for some unknown reason.

Something else that bugs me is how much he shits on my character for simply being Lawful Good. He says I'm the "worst kind of character" when he's playing a Chaotic Neutral and completely missing what his precious StormTalon class really is, which is a hard nosed military sect.

Goes and insults my real-life alignment and then plays what I can safely assume to be chaotic-stupid. I do not like this person. Hopefully your DM will put a stop to him by making him be a different race. At the very I hope your DM sees the places where he's lying or interpreting the rules in whatever manner is most convenient for him. Your DM will probably shoot down the flying through trees thing at least. That part is really shaky.

Yeah, he calls it "Lawful Stupid" and thinks that Neutrality is the best thing ever. Am I the only one who thinks being Neutral is boring as fuck? I mean, I'm a Lawful Good mage hunter on a team FULL of arcane spell casters. I'm basically a one stop shop of conflict right there.

And on account of the Flawless Stride, Flying isn't a "stride" and I SERIOUSLY doubt it was meant to be used as such.

Luckily I was able to get ahold of our DM at this ungodly hour, and his second rule is "Only one tertiary sourcebook to a person" which means he's going to have to overhaul his character BIG time, since his race and all of his classes are from different books. I don't think he has a SINGLE aspect of his character from the Player's Manual

Assumedly his feats would be from there. And his classes and races come from two books, Complete Adventurer and Races of the Wild. Unless master thrower comes from Complete Warrior. I guess if you DM consider the Complete book tertiary then you should be fine. Looks like the problem has been solved. And yes, neutral is boring.

Yeah, Raptoran and StormTalon and from Races of the Wild, Master thrower is from Complete Warrior, and Scout is from Complete Adventurer.

It somewhat scares me thatbI remembered those last two without checking, considering how little I actually get to play. Oh well, at least it wasn't something really obscure like a bunch of random spells from varying books. I'll never get those down. Or the monster manuals.

I hope I can help streamline the rules a bit, cause I honestly like my Paladin/Kensai/Pious Templar build. But I'm willing to part with it if I must

Hmm, my group only recently got the complete divine so I don't quite know how that would work. Sounds good thematically at least.

Exactly, I make characters who's levels and classes make sense

I think most people do really. Some people just have no clue how to, or their dream build doesn't and shouldn't makes sense.

I ALWAYS make my characters make sense. I'm not going to go Paladin then something like Drunken Master or some bullshit, because it doesn't make sense.

Hey, I like the idea behind the drunken master class. Not to say that it actually works, but I still kinda wish it did. If only monks didn't suck.

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

You could go into a cave or dungeon or something do his flying ability would be nerfed then blast him with some spell he's weak against, like Illusion.

Are there paralysis spells? What field are they under? (I don't know DnD that well) It could be pretty funny to have him frozen on the sidelines for the fights. Or hit him while he's in the air and have him take fall damage. Enemy mage: 'Oh, you're 300 ft in the air?' ZAP! 'Terminal velocity *****.' SPLAT.

Or you could send your group through a meat grinder like the one in Spoony's video (already linked in thread), but this might kill everyone, so might not be the best idea. :/

Or your DM could grow a pair and literally drop a bridge on him. Or bring a can of deus ex whoopassia down on him.

There ARE paralysis spells, and they WOULD be incredibly useful since they need Will saves to negate I Belive.

Aaaaaand that seals it! There truly is no hope. Your 30d6 is no exaggeration, it's actually an understatement. Forbid the race, possibly ban the player. I think I can kind of conceptualize what he's doing now, and it's pure bullshit.

What levels are you and what is the parties general make up? But generally DR fucks with someone with many attacks that do a little damage each. Targettig his bad saves should take him out or just use a spell that's "no save just suck" Maze is a great choice for such a spell against a low int foe. Strong winds also fuck with throwers (and are especially bad for flying throwers) and finally if he's using precision damage then undead, oozes, construct, anyone with uncanny dodge or anyone with a miss chance is immune to it.

But remember this if someone that is not a full casting spellcaster thinks that he's a big shot you can always use magic to take him down a notch (full casters rule supreme in 3.5)

We're starting at 6, I'm a Paladin/Kensai, he's a Scout/Master Thrower at the moment, we've also got a Druid/Sorcerer who's going into Arcane Hierophant, a HexBade who's still kinda finding his niche, and a WarMage.

Are you familiar with Skirmish damage? It's like the precision and sneak attack damage except you have to move at least 30ft first. He uses his ability to move vertically as his required 30ft for the damage boost.

First, I think it was ten feet, or two squares. Second, I freaking love the Paladin Kensai build and shall now proceed to give you mad props, whatever that means.
Back to skirmish, the problem I have with this build the guy is using is that without skirmish's natural check of having to move on land it gets too powerful. From what I've read the book is saying, it seems that the scout gets to apply the damage to each hit, which is terrible. I still love the class because it is a well rounded and powerful non-caster, but this guy is totally being a dick. But now that I know you guys are playing at sixth level I can give you what may be some good news. The guy's gonna get screwed over in weapons. He needs a buttload of enchanted daggers to keep up with an average archer build, and that is a very good way the DM can keep him down later, by limiting his access to enchanted daggers. He may still have to throw some counters at the guy every now and then, but limiting his number of enchanted daggers should work in the long run. For now though, he will remain broken as all hell because he probably just got the ability to throw two or three daggers in a turn. The number of dagger he can throw would be some good information, actually.

Unfortunately, he has the Gloves of Infinite Daggers or some related bullshit. Basically an infinite supply of ethereal daggers.

This individual is clearly a grade A munchkin then. There is no hope. He must be ejected from the group. Anyone who thinks a build through that far is no longer an optimizer and is way too far gone. I really hope he just read about this build and some website and really has no clue what he's doing, but that is unlikely. So, how many knives can he throw in a single turn right now?

I think he said at level 12 he'll be throwing something like 8 daggers, all at different targets and they have a chance to trip or disarm, and if he's diving from the air, he gets a charge bonus plus two talon attacks from his StormTalon class

Storm talon is how he's getting there. It lets him throw daggers with his feet. Master Thrower I believe gives him multi-shot, the gloves five him infinite daggers, skirmish triples his damage output as long as he can move, and flying makes it so ha can use skirmish anywhere without a ceiling. Unless he is constantly under the effects of mind affecting abilities, he will be killing everything that moves.

Edit: I think I should add that my group never powergames. I also have no clue how that top paragraph got up there. I thought I erased it.

Honestly I think I'd be okay with his character if he changed one thing, the race. I think a big issue is with the vertical he has as a flying race. If he was, let's say a Halfling, he could keep his classes except Stormtalon and he could play EXACTLY the same way, and it would make WAY more sense since he's wanting to be a wisecracking smart ass. StormTalons are a hard nosed military group, not wisecracking assholes. Know who are generally wisecracking assholes? Halflings. What do Halflings get? Halfling Skip Rocks. Which sounds like a WAY better weapon for a Master Thrower.

You're probably right, and after having read up on the classes it looks like he is a bit of a failure as a munchkin. Not only are there aparently better builds, but his build doesn't even work. The gauntlets actually only give him one dagger a turn and five may be +3 while the rest are normal. He needs seven levels of scout before he can become a master thrower (+5 bab before taking up the class), and the charge thing the guy above said. The guy probably has no clue what he's doing and just feels like he needs to be the center of attention. Not letting him be the race should honestly be enough.

He's taking 8 levels in Scout before going into Master Thrower. But now I have a question, would the Scout's "Flawless Stride" class ability work while flying? He's saying he's immune to things like heavy wind effects and having to avoid trees in dense forest because the ability says he moves across terrain without impedement.

Literally, it would work, but considering that the ability already makes exceptions for climbing and swimming, probably not. Guy really sounds like a munchkin in training, especially considering how many convenient mistakes he's made.

That's incredibly Lame. I REALLY wish he would just play Halfling. But he is just dead set on playing a goddamn bird person, he wants his own personal anime where he can be the wisecracking, Captain Do-Everything. He absolutely HATES Halflings for some unknown reason.

Something else that bugs me is how much he shits on my character for simply being Lawful Good. He says I'm the "worst kind of character" when he's playing a Chaotic Neutral and completely missing what his precious StormTalon class really is, which is a hard nosed military sect.

Goes and insults my real-life alignment and then plays what I can safely assume to be chaotic-stupid. I do not like this person. Hopefully your DM will put a stop to him by making him be a different race. At the very I hope your DM sees the places where he's lying or interpreting the rules in whatever manner is most convenient for him. Your DM will probably shoot down the flying through trees thing at least. That part is really shaky.

Yeah, he calls it "Lawful Stupid" and thinks that Neutrality is the best thing ever. Am I the only one who thinks being Neutral is boring as fuck? I mean, I'm a Lawful Good mage hunter on a team FULL of arcane spell casters. I'm basically a one stop shop of conflict right there.

And on account of the Flawless Stride, Flying isn't a "stride" and I SERIOUSLY doubt it was meant to be used as such.

Luckily I was able to get ahold of our DM at this ungodly hour, and his second rule is "Only one tertiary sourcebook to a person" which means he's going to have to overhaul his character BIG time, since his race and all of his classes are from different books. I don't think he has a SINGLE aspect of his character from the Player's Manual

Assumedly his feats would be from there. And his classes and races come from two books, Complete Adventurer and Races of the Wild. Unless master thrower comes from Complete Warrior. I guess if you DM consider the Complete book tertiary then you should be fine. Looks like the problem has been solved. And yes, neutral is boring.

Yeah, Raptoran and StormTalon and from Races of the Wild, Master thrower is from Complete Warrior, and Scout is from Complete Adventurer.

It somewhat scares me thatbI remembered those last two without checking, considering how little I actually get to play. Oh well, at least it wasn't something really obscure like a bunch of random spells from varying books. I'll never get those down. Or the monster manuals.

I hope I can help streamline the rules a bit, cause I honestly like my Paladin/Kensai/Pious Templar build. But I'm willing to part with it if I must

Hmm, my group only recently got the complete divine so I don't quite know how that would work. Sounds good thematically at least.

Exactly, I make characters who's levels and classes make sense

I think most people do really. Some people just have no clue how to, or their dream build doesn't and shouldn't makes sense.

I ALWAYS make my characters make sense. I'm not going to go Paladin then something like Drunken Master or some bullshit, because it doesn't make sense.

Hey, I like the idea behind the drunken master class. Not to say that it actually works, but I still kinda wish it did. If only monks didn't suck.

WOAH slow down there buddy. Monks suck? have you SEEN a level 20 Monk? Their fists are considered magic weapons, they ignore hardness, they don't age, they can talk to all living creatures, they can become ethereal for one round at will, not to mention a LOAD of other things.

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

Alright, I'm having an issue with one of my fellow players in our D&D campaign. Basically, he's making our game not fun. Every encounter boils down to him hurling a hail of daggers down on the enemies from the sky, doing something crazy like 30d6 damage to everything, and ending the fight with just a few rounds. He's turned the game into his own personal Anime with him as the wisecracking protagonist.

Now my question is this, what should my course of action be? I'm not the DM so I can't crush him with rocks, and I'm Lawful Good so I can't plot to secretly murder him. I would be fine if he would just let every one play, but sometimes whole encounters are over before the last person can even act.

So far, my plan is to ask our DM to instill a few rules and restrictions. Because we're all getting really frustrated and our DM is threatening to switch systems on us.

Has anyone who's faced a similar problem with a spotlight stealing powergamer that has some friendly advice?

Tell your GM he needs to get OLD TESTAMENT on this munchkins ass. Dungeons filled with inescapable traps that only lead to more inescapable traps that WORK FASTER. He needs to throw some ethereal enemies in the mix, the kind immune to ALL PHYSICAL DAMAGE. What's that? His hail of daggers only ENRAGED the ghosts, and now he faces imminent ectoplasmic deflowering? Yeah, suddenly he realizes this ISN'T some anime fantasy, he CANNOT handle the negative modifier to his acrobatics skill as he slides down the greased pit into the clacking maw(s) of the Flesh Beetle Swarm... well, he can't handle it ALONE at least. He better hope the Bard is willing to sing his Song of Legendary Alacrity so he doesn't botch that acro roll.

Don't give him any quarter, otherwise this minmaxing weeaboo fucktard will find a way to always roll crits on FUN ITSELF.

Reminds me of how I dealt with my own Munchkin. We were playing Dark Heresy (the TTRPG equivalent of Warhammer 40k where you play as normal humans in the service of the Inquisition)

Everyone so far has proved very complimentary to eachothers abilities, they manage to scrape through MANY difficult encounters by sheer teamwork and clever thinking. Then along comes the Munchkin, and he brings in his Nobleborn Scum Character, "Havelock Von Fulcrim", which, over the course of 3 game sessions everyone too to calling "Havelock Von Buttfuck", due to the fact that he would not, read, WOULD NOT (not could not) roleplay for shit, and expected his retardedly gimped stats and dice roll modifiers to compensate for this fact. This guy actually BELIEVED he could roll high enough on his Charm to get out of trouble for killing 3 children of minor nobility in BROAD DAYLIGHT, in a BUSY METROPOLITAN AREA, literally 20 feet away from the Adeptus Arbitres (Space police/Judge Dredd fanclub) This inevitably got the entire party into messy situations they would otherwise never have gotten into. Not only that, but the player of this Buttfuck character would go behind my back and READ THE ADVENTURE BOOKS to gain an advantage over everyone else, and try to use his knowledge of the books to make it look like he was indispensable to the team and their survival at large.

So what did I do?

OLD.
MOTHERFUCKING.
TESTAMENT.

Not all minmaxers are munchkins, but all munchkins are minmaxers. That means they wil lhave at the minimum, 1 or 2 stats that are very weak. This is where you attack them, in the one place they can do fuck all about, and it's the place that hurts the most. For example, the Havelock character, he had dumped and focused all his experience points into Toughness (Constitution) Wounds (HP) Fellowship (Charisma) Agility (Dexterity) and Ballistics (Skill with guns) and bought as many perks as he could to fortify these skills while also negating and boosting his ability to dual wield pistols (Don't get me started on the dual pistol wielding, EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER this guy makes, or has ever made, has always dual wielded either scimitars or pistols)

All his other stats (Intelligence, toughness, and willpower, most notably willpower) were mediocre or outright shitastic.

So I threw Daemons at them. Daemons that possess people. Daemons that possess people based on opposed willpower tests. The rest of the party had little to moderate difficulty with this, and Havelock did as well as I expected. Havelocks player threw a ragefit, I told him "Maybe you should think less about minimizing weaknesses and more about characters with good roleplay potential."

But he didn't listen, and went on to create clones of his Havelock character when they all inevitably died, and became the buttmonkey of our group, forever an unwitting jester, never learning from his mistakes, only ever making a SLIGHT change to his attitude when the entire group confronted him, dropping all pretense and telling him straight up to spend more time reading background lore and less time combing the rulebooks with a magnifying glass looking for loopholes to give him that extra +10 to whatever. So I continued with the OLD TESTAMENT style of GMing, everyone had fun except the poor Munchkin, who wouldn't listen to the rest of us.

TL;DR : GM should go OLD TESTAMENT on the Munchkin. He'll either learn his lesson and be a team player/better roleplayer and everyone will have fun, or he'll never learn and become the groups buttmonkey, forever ridiculed. Everyone EXCEPT him will have fun, but that's his fault for not changing to accommodate other people besides himself, so your conscience is clean.

That guy sounds a lot like ours. Instead of having a character that makes sense, he just pore over every sourcebook he can find for the smallest advantage he can get. That's why he's a Raptoran Scout/Master Thrower/StormTalon/Fighter with something like 30d6 damage a round. He plays like the generic wisecracking douchebag protagonist, all while shitting on me for simply being Lawful Good. At least my shit makes sense. Sure, I looked through quite a few books to find what I wanted, but I picked things that FIT the fact I started as a Paladin. I didn't grab up every little thing I could to make me a brick shithouse that punches like a runaway ice cream truck. I want to Role Play the Stoic, Pious, Lawful Good Paladin My character started as, just compounding on his resolve as he travels and grows as a character. Not just trying to make my numbers higher.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

You could go into a cave or dungeon or something do his flying ability would be nerfed then blast him with some spell he's weak against, like Illusion.

Are there paralysis spells? What field are they under? (I don't know DnD that well) It could be pretty funny to have him frozen on the sidelines for the fights. Or hit him while he's in the air and have him take fall damage. Enemy mage: 'Oh, you're 300 ft in the air?' ZAP! 'Terminal velocity *****.' SPLAT.

Or you could send your group through a meat grinder like the one in Spoony's video (already linked in thread), but this might kill everyone, so might not be the best idea. :/

Or your DM could grow a pair and literally drop a bridge on him. Or bring a can of deus ex whoopassia down on him.

There ARE paralysis spells, and they WOULD be incredibly useful since they need Will saves to negate I Belive.

Aaaaaand that seals it! There truly is no hope. Your 30d6 is no exaggeration, it's actually an understatement. Forbid the race, possibly ban the player. I think I can kind of conceptualize what he's doing now, and it's pure bullshit.

What levels are you and what is the parties general make up? But generally DR fucks with someone with many attacks that do a little damage each. Targettig his bad saves should take him out or just use a spell that's "no save just suck" Maze is a great choice for such a spell against a low int foe. Strong winds also fuck with throwers (and are especially bad for flying throwers) and finally if he's using precision damage then undead, oozes, construct, anyone with uncanny dodge or anyone with a miss chance is immune to it.

But remember this if someone that is not a full casting spellcaster thinks that he's a big shot you can always use magic to take him down a notch (full casters rule supreme in 3.5)

We're starting at 6, I'm a Paladin/Kensai, he's a Scout/Master Thrower at the moment, we've also got a Druid/Sorcerer who's going into Arcane Hierophant, a HexBade who's still kinda finding his niche, and a WarMage.

Are you familiar with Skirmish damage? It's like the precision and sneak attack damage except you have to move at least 30ft first. He uses his ability to move vertically as his required 30ft for the damage boost.

First, I think it was ten feet, or two squares. Second, I freaking love the Paladin Kensai build and shall now proceed to give you mad props, whatever that means.
Back to skirmish, the problem I have with this build the guy is using is that without skirmish's natural check of having to move on land it gets too powerful. From what I've read the book is saying, it seems that the scout gets to apply the damage to each hit, which is terrible. I still love the class because it is a well rounded and powerful non-caster, but this guy is totally being a dick. But now that I know you guys are playing at sixth level I can give you what may be some good news. The guy's gonna get screwed over in weapons. He needs a buttload of enchanted daggers to keep up with an average archer build, and that is a very good way the DM can keep him down later, by limiting his access to enchanted daggers. He may still have to throw some counters at the guy every now and then, but limiting his number of enchanted daggers should work in the long run. For now though, he will remain broken as all hell because he probably just got the ability to throw two or three daggers in a turn. The number of dagger he can throw would be some good information, actually.

Unfortunately, he has the Gloves of Infinite Daggers or some related bullshit. Basically an infinite supply of ethereal daggers.

This individual is clearly a grade A munchkin then. There is no hope. He must be ejected from the group. Anyone who thinks a build through that far is no longer an optimizer and is way too far gone. I really hope he just read about this build and some website and really has no clue what he's doing, but that is unlikely. So, how many knives can he throw in a single turn right now?

I think he said at level 12 he'll be throwing something like 8 daggers, all at different targets and they have a chance to trip or disarm, and if he's diving from the air, he gets a charge bonus plus two talon attacks from his StormTalon class

Storm talon is how he's getting there. It lets him throw daggers with his feet. Master Thrower I believe gives him multi-shot, the gloves five him infinite daggers, skirmish triples his damage output as long as he can move, and flying makes it so ha can use skirmish anywhere without a ceiling. Unless he is constantly under the effects of mind affecting abilities, he will be killing everything that moves.

Edit: I think I should add that my group never powergames. I also have no clue how that top paragraph got up there. I thought I erased it.

Honestly I think I'd be okay with his character if he changed one thing, the race. I think a big issue is with the vertical he has as a flying race. If he was, let's say a Halfling, he could keep his classes except Stormtalon and he could play EXACTLY the same way, and it would make WAY more sense since he's wanting to be a wisecracking smart ass. StormTalons are a hard nosed military group, not wisecracking assholes. Know who are generally wisecracking assholes? Halflings. What do Halflings get? Halfling Skip Rocks. Which sounds like a WAY better weapon for a Master Thrower.

You're probably right, and after having read up on the classes it looks like he is a bit of a failure as a munchkin. Not only are there aparently better builds, but his build doesn't even work. The gauntlets actually only give him one dagger a turn and five may be +3 while the rest are normal. He needs seven levels of scout before he can become a master thrower (+5 bab before taking up the class), and the charge thing the guy above said. The guy probably has no clue what he's doing and just feels like he needs to be the center of attention. Not letting him be the race should honestly be enough.

He's taking 8 levels in Scout before going into Master Thrower. But now I have a question, would the Scout's "Flawless Stride" class ability work while flying? He's saying he's immune to things like heavy wind effects and having to avoid trees in dense forest because the ability says he moves across terrain without impedement.

Literally, it would work, but considering that the ability already makes exceptions for climbing and swimming, probably not. Guy really sounds like a munchkin in training, especially considering how many convenient mistakes he's made.

That's incredibly Lame. I REALLY wish he would just play Halfling. But he is just dead set on playing a goddamn bird person, he wants his own personal anime where he can be the wisecracking, Captain Do-Everything. He absolutely HATES Halflings for some unknown reason.

Something else that bugs me is how much he shits on my character for simply being Lawful Good. He says I'm the "worst kind of character" when he's playing a Chaotic Neutral and completely missing what his precious StormTalon class really is, which is a hard nosed military sect.

Goes and insults my real-life alignment and then plays what I can safely assume to be chaotic-stupid. I do not like this person. Hopefully your DM will put a stop to him by making him be a different race. At the very I hope your DM sees the places where he's lying or interpreting the rules in whatever manner is most convenient for him. Your DM will probably shoot down the flying through trees thing at least. That part is really shaky.

Yeah, he calls it "Lawful Stupid" and thinks that Neutrality is the best thing ever. Am I the only one who thinks being Neutral is boring as fuck? I mean, I'm a Lawful Good mage hunter on a team FULL of arcane spell casters. I'm basically a one stop shop of conflict right there.

And on account of the Flawless Stride, Flying isn't a "stride" and I SERIOUSLY doubt it was meant to be used as such.

Luckily I was able to get ahold of our DM at this ungodly hour, and his second rule is "Only one tertiary sourcebook to a person" which means he's going to have to overhaul his character BIG time, since his race and all of his classes are from different books. I don't think he has a SINGLE aspect of his character from the Player's Manual

Assumedly his feats would be from there. And his classes and races come from two books, Complete Adventurer and Races of the Wild. Unless master thrower comes from Complete Warrior. I guess if you DM consider the Complete book tertiary then you should be fine. Looks like the problem has been solved. And yes, neutral is boring.

Yeah, Raptoran and StormTalon and from Races of the Wild, Master thrower is from Complete Warrior, and Scout is from Complete Adventurer.

It somewhat scares me thatbI remembered those last two without checking, considering how little I actually get to play. Oh well, at least it wasn't something really obscure like a bunch of random spells from varying books. I'll never get those down. Or the monster manuals.

I hope I can help streamline the rules a bit, cause I honestly like my Paladin/Kensai/Pious Templar build. But I'm willing to part with it if I must

Hmm, my group only recently got the complete divine so I don't quite know how that would work. Sounds good thematically at least.

Exactly, I make characters who's levels and classes make sense

I think most people do really. Some people just have no clue how to, or their dream build doesn't and shouldn't makes sense.

I ALWAYS make my characters make sense. I'm not going to go Paladin then something like Drunken Master or some bullshit, because it doesn't make sense.

Hey, I like the idea behind the drunken master class. Not to say that it actually works, but I still kinda wish it did. If only monks didn't suck.

WOAH slow down there buddy. Monks suck? have you SEEN a level 20 Monk? Their fists are considered magic weapons, they ignore hardness, they don't age, they can talk to all living creatures, they can become ethereal for one round at will, not to mention a LOAD of other things.

They are of a very difficult build requiring basically every stat except fo int and cha. I am slightly biased since those are my two favorite stats. There are many other people that can make this argument better than me, and it is a bit off topic.

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

You could go into a cave or dungeon or something do his flying ability would be nerfed then blast him with some spell he's weak against, like Illusion.

Are there paralysis spells? What field are they under? (I don't know DnD that well) It could be pretty funny to have him frozen on the sidelines for the fights. Or hit him while he's in the air and have him take fall damage. Enemy mage: 'Oh, you're 300 ft in the air?' ZAP! 'Terminal velocity *****.' SPLAT.

Or you could send your group through a meat grinder like the one in Spoony's video (already linked in thread), but this might kill everyone, so might not be the best idea. :/

Or your DM could grow a pair and literally drop a bridge on him. Or bring a can of deus ex whoopassia down on him.

There ARE paralysis spells, and they WOULD be incredibly useful since they need Will saves to negate I Belive.

Aaaaaand that seals it! There truly is no hope. Your 30d6 is no exaggeration, it's actually an understatement. Forbid the race, possibly ban the player. I think I can kind of conceptualize what he's doing now, and it's pure bullshit.

What levels are you and what is the parties general make up? But generally DR fucks with someone with many attacks that do a little damage each. Targettig his bad saves should take him out or just use a spell that's "no save just suck" Maze is a great choice for such a spell against a low int foe. Strong winds also fuck with throwers (and are especially bad for flying throwers) and finally if he's using precision damage then undead, oozes, construct, anyone with uncanny dodge or anyone with a miss chance is immune to it.

But remember this if someone that is not a full casting spellcaster thinks that he's a big shot you can always use magic to take him down a notch (full casters rule supreme in 3.5)

We're starting at 6, I'm a Paladin/Kensai, he's a Scout/Master Thrower at the moment, we've also got a Druid/Sorcerer who's going into Arcane Hierophant, a HexBade who's still kinda finding his niche, and a WarMage.

Are you familiar with Skirmish damage? It's like the precision and sneak attack damage except you have to move at least 30ft first. He uses his ability to move vertically as his required 30ft for the damage boost.

First, I think it was ten feet, or two squares. Second, I freaking love the Paladin Kensai build and shall now proceed to give you mad props, whatever that means.
Back to skirmish, the problem I have with this build the guy is using is that without skirmish's natural check of having to move on land it gets too powerful. From what I've read the book is saying, it seems that the scout gets to apply the damage to each hit, which is terrible. I still love the class because it is a well rounded and powerful non-caster, but this guy is totally being a dick. But now that I know you guys are playing at sixth level I can give you what may be some good news. The guy's gonna get screwed over in weapons. He needs a buttload of enchanted daggers to keep up with an average archer build, and that is a very good way the DM can keep him down later, by limiting his access to enchanted daggers. He may still have to throw some counters at the guy every now and then, but limiting his number of enchanted daggers should work in the long run. For now though, he will remain broken as all hell because he probably just got the ability to throw two or three daggers in a turn. The number of dagger he can throw would be some good information, actually.

Unfortunately, he has the Gloves of Infinite Daggers or some related bullshit. Basically an infinite supply of ethereal daggers.

This individual is clearly a grade A munchkin then. There is no hope. He must be ejected from the group. Anyone who thinks a build through that far is no longer an optimizer and is way too far gone. I really hope he just read about this build and some website and really has no clue what he's doing, but that is unlikely. So, how many knives can he throw in a single turn right now?

I think he said at level 12 he'll be throwing something like 8 daggers, all at different targets and they have a chance to trip or disarm, and if he's diving from the air, he gets a charge bonus plus two talon attacks from his StormTalon class

Storm talon is how he's getting there. It lets him throw daggers with his feet. Master Thrower I believe gives him multi-shot, the gloves five him infinite daggers, skirmish triples his damage output as long as he can move, and flying makes it so ha can use skirmish anywhere without a ceiling. Unless he is constantly under the effects of mind affecting abilities, he will be killing everything that moves.

Edit: I think I should add that my group never powergames. I also have no clue how that top paragraph got up there. I thought I erased it.

Honestly I think I'd be okay with his character if he changed one thing, the race. I think a big issue is with the vertical he has as a flying race. If he was, let's say a Halfling, he could keep his classes except Stormtalon and he could play EXACTLY the same way, and it would make WAY more sense since he's wanting to be a wisecracking smart ass. StormTalons are a hard nosed military group, not wisecracking assholes. Know who are generally wisecracking assholes? Halflings. What do Halflings get? Halfling Skip Rocks. Which sounds like a WAY better weapon for a Master Thrower.

You're probably right, and after having read up on the classes it looks like he is a bit of a failure as a munchkin. Not only are there aparently better builds, but his build doesn't even work. The gauntlets actually only give him one dagger a turn and five may be +3 while the rest are normal. He needs seven levels of scout before he can become a master thrower (+5 bab before taking up the class), and the charge thing the guy above said. The guy probably has no clue what he's doing and just feels like he needs to be the center of attention. Not letting him be the race should honestly be enough.

He's taking 8 levels in Scout before going into Master Thrower. But now I have a question, would the Scout's "Flawless Stride" class ability work while flying? He's saying he's immune to things like heavy wind effects and having to avoid trees in dense forest because the ability says he moves across terrain without impedement.

Literally, it would work, but considering that the ability already makes exceptions for climbing and swimming, probably not. Guy really sounds like a munchkin in training, especially considering how many convenient mistakes he's made.

That's incredibly Lame. I REALLY wish he would just play Halfling. But he is just dead set on playing a goddamn bird person, he wants his own personal anime where he can be the wisecracking, Captain Do-Everything. He absolutely HATES Halflings for some unknown reason.

Something else that bugs me is how much he shits on my character for simply being Lawful Good. He says I'm the "worst kind of character" when he's playing a Chaotic Neutral and completely missing what his precious StormTalon class really is, which is a hard nosed military sect.

Goes and insults my real-life alignment and then plays what I can safely assume to be chaotic-stupid. I do not like this person. Hopefully your DM will put a stop to him by making him be a different race. At the very I hope your DM sees the places where he's lying or interpreting the rules in whatever manner is most convenient for him. Your DM will probably shoot down the flying through trees thing at least. That part is really shaky.

Yeah, he calls it "Lawful Stupid" and thinks that Neutrality is the best thing ever. Am I the only one who thinks being Neutral is boring as fuck? I mean, I'm a Lawful Good mage hunter on a team FULL of arcane spell casters. I'm basically a one stop shop of conflict right there.

And on account of the Flawless Stride, Flying isn't a "stride" and I SERIOUSLY doubt it was meant to be used as such.

Luckily I was able to get ahold of our DM at this ungodly hour, and his second rule is "Only one tertiary sourcebook to a person" which means he's going to have to overhaul his character BIG time, since his race and all of his classes are from different books. I don't think he has a SINGLE aspect of his character from the Player's Manual

Assumedly his feats would be from there. And his classes and races come from two books, Complete Adventurer and Races of the Wild. Unless master thrower comes from Complete Warrior. I guess if you DM consider the Complete book tertiary then you should be fine. Looks like the problem has been solved. And yes, neutral is boring.

Yeah, Raptoran and StormTalon and from Races of the Wild, Master thrower is from Complete Warrior, and Scout is from Complete Adventurer.

It somewhat scares me thatbI remembered those last two without checking, considering how little I actually get to play. Oh well, at least it wasn't something really obscure like a bunch of random spells from varying books. I'll never get those down. Or the monster manuals.

I hope I can help streamline the rules a bit, cause I honestly like my Paladin/Kensai/Pious Templar build. But I'm willing to part with it if I must

Hmm, my group only recently got the complete divine so I don't quite know how that would work. Sounds good thematically at least.

Exactly, I make characters who's levels and classes make sense

I think most people do really. Some people just have no clue how to, or their dream build doesn't and shouldn't makes sense.

I ALWAYS make my characters make sense. I'm not going to go Paladin then something like Drunken Master or some bullshit, because it doesn't make sense.

Hey, I like the idea behind the drunken master class. Not to say that it actually works, but I still kinda wish it did. If only monks didn't suck.

WOAH slow down there buddy. Monks suck? have you SEEN a level 20 Monk? Their fists are considered magic weapons, they ignore hardness, they don't age, they can talk to all living creatures, they can become ethereal for one round at will, not to mention a LOAD of other things.

They are of a very difficult build requiring basically every stat except fo int and cha. I am slightly biased since those are my two favorite stats. There are many other people that can make this argument better than me, and it is a bit off topic.

I think I'm going to start telling people to not get too attached to their build until the DM signs off. Cause this whole bruhaha is getting exhausting

 

[Syzygy23]

That guy sounds a lot like ours. Instead of having a character that makes sense, he just pore over every sourcebook he can find for the smallest advantage he can get. That's why he's a Raptoran Scout/Master Thrower/StormTalon/Fighter with something like 30d6 damage a round. He plays like the generic wisecracking douchebag protagonist, all while shitting on me for simply being Lawful Good. At least my shit makes sense. Sure, I looked through quite a few books to find what I wanted, but I picked things that FIT the fact I started as a Paladin. I didn't grab up every little thing I could to make me a brick shithouse that punches like a runaway ice cream truck. I want to Role Play the Stoic, Pious, Lawful Good Paladin My character started as, just compounding on his resolve as he travels and grows as a character. Not just trying to make my numbers higher.

See, THAT'S the sign of a good player. Squeezing in as much character development before you either find something more interesting or your character dies.

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

That guy sounds a lot like ours. Instead of having a character that makes sense, he just pore over every sourcebook he can find for the smallest advantage he can get. That's why he's a Raptoran Scout/Master Thrower/StormTalon/Fighter with something like 30d6 damage a round. He plays like the generic wisecracking douchebag protagonist, all while shitting on me for simply being Lawful Good. At least my shit makes sense. Sure, I looked through quite a few books to find what I wanted, but I picked things that FIT the fact I started as a Paladin. I didn't grab up every little thing I could to make me a brick shithouse that punches like a runaway ice cream truck. I want to Role Play the Stoic, Pious, Lawful Good Paladin My character started as, just compounding on his resolve as he travels and grows as a character. Not just trying to make my numbers higher.

See, THAT'S the sign of a good player. Squeezing in as much character development before you either find something more interesting or your character dies.

I don't put anything on paper til I have a coherent and well thought out back story for my character. Something me and my friends like to do is come up with a "nemesis" for our characters. Mostly just for fun, but it gives us a campaign idea if we need an impromptu skull bashing session.

 

[s0p0g]

did you and/or your entire party talk to the player about it?
you might also try a roleplaying game, instead of d&d (which is munchkin with big books and more rules )
we all consentiently agreed to restrictions on items, bonuses on items, races, classes etc, if they seemed to be gamebreaking, like the guy you described. no one wanted to kill the game, but if you allow it, someone will - human nature or something like that.

also, this

If your DM won't deal with him, and you don't want to attack him directly, then there are four things you can do.

1. Just keep playing. He'll probably keep it up though.
2. Stop playing. (Worst option.)
3. Tell him that his character is overpowered to his face. (Might work. Might not.)
4. Out munchkin him. Make a new character named Pun-Pun. (Look it up.)

if nothing seems to work out, all of you will have to decide whether yo want to be a RP group, or a standard D&D powergaming skullbashing group, and then either change your characters accordantly, or split up (worst case scenario, ultima ratio. we once parted from a player, but it was mutually. we agreed that we disagreed on our expectations regarding the game, and came to the conclusion that it doesn't help any of us if we stick together. no hard feelings )

 

[pffh]

You could go into a cave or dungeon or something do his flying ability would be nerfed then blast him with some spell he's weak against, like Illusion.

Are there paralysis spells? What field are they under? (I don't know DnD that well) It could be pretty funny to have him frozen on the sidelines for the fights. Or hit him while he's in the air and have him take fall damage. Enemy mage: 'Oh, you're 300 ft in the air?' ZAP! 'Terminal velocity *****.' SPLAT.

Or you could send your group through a meat grinder like the one in Spoony's video (already linked in thread), but this might kill everyone, so might not be the best idea. :/

Or your DM could grow a pair and literally drop a bridge on him. Or bring a can of deus ex whoopassia down on him.

There ARE paralysis spells, and they WOULD be incredibly useful since they need Will saves to negate I Belive.

Aaaaaand that seals it! There truly is no hope. Your 30d6 is no exaggeration, it's actually an understatement. Forbid the race, possibly ban the player. I think I can kind of conceptualize what he's doing now, and it's pure bullshit.

What levels are you and what is the parties general make up? But generally DR fucks with someone with many attacks that do a little damage each. Targettig his bad saves should take him out or just use a spell that's "no save just suck" Maze is a great choice for such a spell against a low int foe. Strong winds also fuck with throwers (and are especially bad for flying throwers) and finally if he's using precision damage then undead, oozes, construct, anyone with uncanny dodge or anyone with a miss chance is immune to it.

But remember this if someone that is not a full casting spellcaster thinks that he's a big shot you can always use magic to take him down a notch (full casters rule supreme in 3.5)

We're starting at 6, I'm a Paladin/Kensai, he's a Scout/Master Thrower at the moment, we've also got a Druid/Sorcerer who's going into Arcane Hierophant, a HexBade who's still kinda finding his niche, and a WarMage.

Are you familiar with Skirmish damage? It's like the precision and sneak attack damage except you have to move at least 30ft first. He uses his ability to move vertically as his required 30ft for the damage boost.

First, I think it was ten feet, or two squares. Second, I freaking love the Paladin Kensai build and shall now proceed to give you mad props, whatever that means.
Back to skirmish, the problem I have with this build the guy is using is that without skirmish's natural check of having to move on land it gets too powerful. From what I've read the book is saying, it seems that the scout gets to apply the damage to each hit, which is terrible. I still love the class because it is a well rounded and powerful non-caster, but this guy is totally being a dick. But now that I know you guys are playing at sixth level I can give you what may be some good news. The guy's gonna get screwed over in weapons. He needs a buttload of enchanted daggers to keep up with an average archer build, and that is a very good way the DM can keep him down later, by limiting his access to enchanted daggers. He may still have to throw some counters at the guy every now and then, but limiting his number of enchanted daggers should work in the long run. For now though, he will remain broken as all hell because he probably just got the ability to throw two or three daggers in a turn. The number of dagger he can throw would be some good information, actually.

Unfortunately, he has the Gloves of Infinite Daggers or some related bullshit. Basically an infinite supply of ethereal daggers.

This individual is clearly a grade A munchkin then. There is no hope. He must be ejected from the group. Anyone who thinks a build through that far is no longer an optimizer and is way too far gone. I really hope he just read about this build and some website and really has no clue what he's doing, but that is unlikely. So, how many knives can he throw in a single turn right now?

I think he said at level 12 he'll be throwing something like 8 daggers, all at different targets and they have a chance to trip or disarm, and if he's diving from the air, he gets a charge bonus plus two talon attacks from his StormTalon class

Storm talon is how he's getting there. It lets him throw daggers with his feet. Master Thrower I believe gives him multi-shot, the gloves five him infinite daggers, skirmish triples his damage output as long as he can move, and flying makes it so ha can use skirmish anywhere without a ceiling. Unless he is constantly under the effects of mind affecting abilities, he will be killing everything that moves.

Edit: I think I should add that my group never powergames. I also have no clue how that top paragraph got up there. I thought I erased it.

Honestly I think I'd be okay with his character if he changed one thing, the race. I think a big issue is with the vertical he has as a flying race. If he was, let's say a Halfling, he could keep his classes except Stormtalon and he could play EXACTLY the same way, and it would make WAY more sense since he's wanting to be a wisecracking smart ass. StormTalons are a hard nosed military group, not wisecracking assholes. Know who are generally wisecracking assholes? Halflings. What do Halflings get? Halfling Skip Rocks. Which sounds like a WAY better weapon for a Master Thrower.

You're probably right, and after having read up on the classes it looks like he is a bit of a failure as a munchkin. Not only are there aparently better builds, but his build doesn't even work. The gauntlets actually only give him one dagger a turn and five may be +3 while the rest are normal. He needs seven levels of scout before he can become a master thrower (+5 bab before taking up the class), and the charge thing the guy above said. The guy probably has no clue what he's doing and just feels like he needs to be the center of attention. Not letting him be the race should honestly be enough.

He's taking 8 levels in Scout before going into Master Thrower. But now I have a question, would the Scout's "Flawless Stride" class ability work while flying? He's saying he's immune to things like heavy wind effects and having to avoid trees in dense forest because the ability says he moves across terrain without impedement.

Literally, it would work, but considering that the ability already makes exceptions for climbing and swimming, probably not. Guy really sounds like a munchkin in training, especially considering how many convenient mistakes he's made.

That's incredibly Lame. I REALLY wish he would just play Halfling. But he is just dead set on playing a goddamn bird person, he wants his own personal anime where he can be the wisecracking, Captain Do-Everything. He absolutely HATES Halflings for some unknown reason.

Something else that bugs me is how much he shits on my character for simply being Lawful Good. He says I'm the "worst kind of character" when he's playing a Chaotic Neutral and completely missing what his precious StormTalon class really is, which is a hard nosed military sect.

Goes and insults my real-life alignment and then plays what I can safely assume to be chaotic-stupid. I do not like this person. Hopefully your DM will put a stop to him by making him be a different race. At the very I hope your DM sees the places where he's lying or interpreting the rules in whatever manner is most convenient for him. Your DM will probably shoot down the flying through trees thing at least. That part is really shaky.

Yeah, he calls it "Lawful Stupid" and thinks that Neutrality is the best thing ever. Am I the only one who thinks being Neutral is boring as fuck? I mean, I'm a Lawful Good mage hunter on a team FULL of arcane spell casters. I'm basically a one stop shop of conflict right there.

And on account of the Flawless Stride, Flying isn't a "stride" and I SERIOUSLY doubt it was meant to be used as such.

Luckily I was able to get ahold of our DM at this ungodly hour, and his second rule is "Only one tertiary sourcebook to a person" which means he's going to have to overhaul his character BIG time, since his race and all of his classes are from different books. I don't think he has a SINGLE aspect of his character from the Player's Manual

Assumedly his feats would be from there. And his classes and races come from two books, Complete Adventurer and Races of the Wild. Unless master thrower comes from Complete Warrior. I guess if you DM consider the Complete book tertiary then you should be fine. Looks like the problem has been solved. And yes, neutral is boring.

Yeah, Raptoran and StormTalon and from Races of the Wild, Master thrower is from Complete Warrior, and Scout is from Complete Adventurer.

It somewhat scares me thatbI remembered those last two without checking, considering how little I actually get to play. Oh well, at least it wasn't something really obscure like a bunch of random spells from varying books. I'll never get those down. Or the monster manuals.

I hope I can help streamline the rules a bit, cause I honestly like my Paladin/Kensai/Pious Templar build. But I'm willing to part with it if I must

Hmm, my group only recently got the complete divine so I don't quite know how that would work. Sounds good thematically at least.

Exactly, I make characters who's levels and classes make sense

I think most people do really. Some people just have no clue how to, or their dream build doesn't and shouldn't makes sense.

I ALWAYS make my characters make sense. I'm not going to go Paladin then something like Drunken Master or some bullshit, because it doesn't make sense.

Hey, I like the idea behind the drunken master class. Not to say that it actually works, but I still kinda wish it did. If only monks didn't suck.

WOAH slow down there buddy. Monks suck? have you SEEN a level 20 Monk? Their fists are considered magic weapons, they ignore hardness, they don't age, they can talk to all living creatures, they can become ethereal for one round at will, not to mention a LOAD of other things.

They also do next to no damage, almost no defenses, their class abilites don't synergies and they need almost all high ability scores. Wait I posted something about monks once:

Spoiler

Not really as they get to higher levels their medium BAB starts to effect them more and more and they miss more often (flurry of blows becomes flurry of misses) and their damage is pitiful.

Lets see at 20 they do 2d10 + str or 11+str on average which won't even scratch the monsters (and remember you can't enchant the fists or use enchanted gloves without house rules that allow it) so even if you do hit it won't matter.

AC: How high is your dex and wis? Lets say each starts at 14 and then you have a +6 item for both (72k gold,10% of your total wealth). That gives us a total of +10 AC from those stats and +4 from being a monk for a total of +14. Congratulations you have the same armor bonus from that as a fighter with 12 dex in a +5 full plate (and that only cost him 27k gold).

HP: Again how high is your con? Not that high since you must keep wis and dex high for AC and the DC of your abilities and str high for damage + only d8 hit die = low health.

Skills: 4 points + int (which is going to be low) = yeah you aren't doing much with those skills

But the monk gets a special ability every level that must count for something right?
flurry of blows: Full round action to use on class that has a bunch of movement bonuses (lol?)

Bonus feats: Feats are nice, nothing special but nice.

Evasion: Always good.

Still mind: Are you joking +2 to saves against enhancement one of the most easily resisted schools of magic. But eh lets call this a plus.

Slow fall: Only against walls and for very short distances. A level 1 spell does this better in every way.

Ki strike (magic): Yay now you to can overcome magic damage resistance like your party members have been doing for the last level with their +1 weapons. But wait you say they also get +1 to hit and +1 damage and you don't huh.

Purity of body: Immunity to all nonmagical diseases. Huh that would be good except that every disease you're going to encounter is going to be supernatural or magical (eg all diseases that the undead have and use) = worthless.

Wholeness of body: Right healing is nice but it's only 2x your level so a pitiful amount and it doesn't specify the action for it so by RAW it defaults to a standard action = useless.

Diamond body: A now we´re talking non of that nonmagical bullshit here. Still poisons are rare but lets call this a plus (and really this should be rolled into purity of body and that should give immunity to magical diseases as well).

Abundant step: dimension door once per day at level 12 (5 levels after your casters have benn using it regularly). Ahahaha good one you almost got me there monk class. Wait you're serious? Oh well erm...

Diamond soul: SR = 10+monk level. Huh something actually useful a caster of equal level will have about 50% chance to break through with a spell that allows SR. To bad about all the spells that don't allow SR but still this is quite nice, way to late at 13th level but nice.

Quivering palm: Right lets go over why this sucks. First you must get into melee range of your victim and hit with the attack -> Quite hard at 15th level and if you miss you waste a use.
Second: it allows a fort save with a pitiful dc = another chance for the target to survive
Third: it's useable once a week at a level where your casters are throwing dozen save or die spells every day and your other melee-ers are doing hundreds of damage via charging. -> All but useless.

Timeless body: Yay I guess. Useless if you get it in game since I doubt that a few decades will pass while playing but if you start at 17th or higher feel free to age yourself for the free boost to mental stats. (Also notice how the druid gets this two levels earlier)

Tongue of the sun and moon: Quite useful to bad there is this low level spell called tongues that you have had access to for at least the last 12 levels.

Empty body: Huh that's actually kinda useful. Except for the fact for how short it lasts and for how late you get it and that you can't attack material foes while etheral so really it´s only use is to pass through walls.

Perfect self: Essentially you become an outsider (native) and gain a useless dr/magic. Hey good news many spells like charm person don't work on you anymore it's just to bad that many spells like enlarge person don´t work on you anymore. -> You lose more then you gain with this.

Also to those that are saying multiclassing and using more then one sourcebooks is bad it's not. The Most broken things in the game are in the players handbook (the most broken spells are there and it has the cleric, wizard and druid three of the most powerful classes). Multiclassing lets melee not be useless.

As for OP about your build in your game that build looks fine but if you have access to tome of battle I think the crusader would fit very well with your character concept.

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

You could go into a cave or dungeon or something do his flying ability would be nerfed then blast him with some spell he's weak against, like Illusion.

Are there paralysis spells? What field are they under? (I don't know DnD that well) It could be pretty funny to have him frozen on the sidelines for the fights. Or hit him while he's in the air and have him take fall damage. Enemy mage: 'Oh, you're 300 ft in the air?' ZAP! 'Terminal velocity *****.' SPLAT.

Or you could send your group through a meat grinder like the one in Spoony's video (already linked in thread), but this might kill everyone, so might not be the best idea. :/

Or your DM could grow a pair and literally drop a bridge on him. Or bring a can of deus ex whoopassia down on him.

There ARE paralysis spells, and they WOULD be incredibly useful since they need Will saves to negate I Belive.

Aaaaaand that seals it! There truly is no hope. Your 30d6 is no exaggeration, it's actually an understatement. Forbid the race, possibly ban the player. I think I can kind of conceptualize what he's doing now, and it's pure bullshit.

What levels are you and what is the parties general make up? But generally DR fucks with someone with many attacks that do a little damage each. Targettig his bad saves should take him out or just use a spell that's "no save just suck" Maze is a great choice for such a spell against a low int foe. Strong winds also fuck with throwers (and are especially bad for flying throwers) and finally if he's using precision damage then undead, oozes, construct, anyone with uncanny dodge or anyone with a miss chance is immune to it.

But remember this if someone that is not a full casting spellcaster thinks that he's a big shot you can always use magic to take him down a notch (full casters rule supreme in 3.5)

We're starting at 6, I'm a Paladin/Kensai, he's a Scout/Master Thrower at the moment, we've also got a Druid/Sorcerer who's going into Arcane Hierophant, a HexBade who's still kinda finding his niche, and a WarMage.

Are you familiar with Skirmish damage? It's like the precision and sneak attack damage except you have to move at least 30ft first. He uses his ability to move vertically as his required 30ft for the damage boost.

First, I think it was ten feet, or two squares. Second, I freaking love the Paladin Kensai build and shall now proceed to give you mad props, whatever that means.
Back to skirmish, the problem I have with this build the guy is using is that without skirmish's natural check of having to move on land it gets too powerful. From what I've read the book is saying, it seems that the scout gets to apply the damage to each hit, which is terrible. I still love the class because it is a well rounded and powerful non-caster, but this guy is totally being a dick. But now that I know you guys are playing at sixth level I can give you what may be some good news. The guy's gonna get screwed over in weapons. He needs a buttload of enchanted daggers to keep up with an average archer build, and that is a very good way the DM can keep him down later, by limiting his access to enchanted daggers. He may still have to throw some counters at the guy every now and then, but limiting his number of enchanted daggers should work in the long run. For now though, he will remain broken as all hell because he probably just got the ability to throw two or three daggers in a turn. The number of dagger he can throw would be some good information, actually.

Unfortunately, he has the Gloves of Infinite Daggers or some related bullshit. Basically an infinite supply of ethereal daggers.

This individual is clearly a grade A munchkin then. There is no hope. He must be ejected from the group. Anyone who thinks a build through that far is no longer an optimizer and is way too far gone. I really hope he just read about this build and some website and really has no clue what he's doing, but that is unlikely. So, how many knives can he throw in a single turn right now?

I think he said at level 12 he'll be throwing something like 8 daggers, all at different targets and they have a chance to trip or disarm, and if he's diving from the air, he gets a charge bonus plus two talon attacks from his StormTalon class

Storm talon is how he's getting there. It lets him throw daggers with his feet. Master Thrower I believe gives him multi-shot, the gloves five him infinite daggers, skirmish triples his damage output as long as he can move, and flying makes it so ha can use skirmish anywhere without a ceiling. Unless he is constantly under the effects of mind affecting abilities, he will be killing everything that moves.

Edit: I think I should add that my group never powergames. I also have no clue how that top paragraph got up there. I thought I erased it.

Honestly I think I'd be okay with his character if he changed one thing, the race. I think a big issue is with the vertical he has as a flying race. If he was, let's say a Halfling, he could keep his classes except Stormtalon and he could play EXACTLY the same way, and it would make WAY more sense since he's wanting to be a wisecracking smart ass. StormTalons are a hard nosed military group, not wisecracking assholes. Know who are generally wisecracking assholes? Halflings. What do Halflings get? Halfling Skip Rocks. Which sounds like a WAY better weapon for a Master Thrower.

You're probably right, and after having read up on the classes it looks like he is a bit of a failure as a munchkin. Not only are there aparently better builds, but his build doesn't even work. The gauntlets actually only give him one dagger a turn and five may be +3 while the rest are normal. He needs seven levels of scout before he can become a master thrower (+5 bab before taking up the class), and the charge thing the guy above said. The guy probably has no clue what he's doing and just feels like he needs to be the center of attention. Not letting him be the race should honestly be enough.

He's taking 8 levels in Scout before going into Master Thrower. But now I have a question, would the Scout's "Flawless Stride" class ability work while flying? He's saying he's immune to things like heavy wind effects and having to avoid trees in dense forest because the ability says he moves across terrain without impedement.

Literally, it would work, but considering that the ability already makes exceptions for climbing and swimming, probably not. Guy really sounds like a munchkin in training, especially considering how many convenient mistakes he's made.

That's incredibly Lame. I REALLY wish he would just play Halfling. But he is just dead set on playing a goddamn bird person, he wants his own personal anime where he can be the wisecracking, Captain Do-Everything. He absolutely HATES Halflings for some unknown reason.

Something else that bugs me is how much he shits on my character for simply being Lawful Good. He says I'm the "worst kind of character" when he's playing a Chaotic Neutral and completely missing what his precious StormTalon class really is, which is a hard nosed military sect.

Goes and insults my real-life alignment and then plays what I can safely assume to be chaotic-stupid. I do not like this person. Hopefully your DM will put a stop to him by making him be a different race. At the very I hope your DM sees the places where he's lying or interpreting the rules in whatever manner is most convenient for him. Your DM will probably shoot down the flying through trees thing at least. That part is really shaky.

Yeah, he calls it "Lawful Stupid" and thinks that Neutrality is the best thing ever. Am I the only one who thinks being Neutral is boring as fuck? I mean, I'm a Lawful Good mage hunter on a team FULL of arcane spell casters. I'm basically a one stop shop of conflict right there.

And on account of the Flawless Stride, Flying isn't a "stride" and I SERIOUSLY doubt it was meant to be used as such.

Luckily I was able to get ahold of our DM at this ungodly hour, and his second rule is "Only one tertiary sourcebook to a person" which means he's going to have to overhaul his character BIG time, since his race and all of his classes are from different books. I don't think he has a SINGLE aspect of his character from the Player's Manual

Assumedly his feats would be from there. And his classes and races come from two books, Complete Adventurer and Races of the Wild. Unless master thrower comes from Complete Warrior. I guess if you DM consider the Complete book tertiary then you should be fine. Looks like the problem has been solved. And yes, neutral is boring.

Yeah, Raptoran and StormTalon and from Races of the Wild, Master thrower is from Complete Warrior, and Scout is from Complete Adventurer.

It somewhat scares me thatbI remembered those last two without checking, considering how little I actually get to play. Oh well, at least it wasn't something really obscure like a bunch of random spells from varying books. I'll never get those down. Or the monster manuals.

I hope I can help streamline the rules a bit, cause I honestly like my Paladin/Kensai/Pious Templar build. But I'm willing to part with it if I must

Hmm, my group only recently got the complete divine so I don't quite know how that would work. Sounds good thematically at least.

Exactly, I make characters who's levels and classes make sense

I think most people do really. Some people just have no clue how to, or their dream build doesn't and shouldn't makes sense.

I ALWAYS make my characters make sense. I'm not going to go Paladin then something like Drunken Master or some bullshit, because it doesn't make sense.

Hey, I like the idea behind the drunken master class. Not to say that it actually works, but I still kinda wish it did. If only monks didn't suck.

WOAH slow down there buddy. Monks suck? have you SEEN a level 20 Monk? Their fists are considered magic weapons, they ignore hardness, they don't age, they can talk to all living creatures, they can become ethereal for one round at will, not to mention a LOAD of other things.

They also do next to no damage, almost no defenses, their class abilites don't synergies and they need almost all high ability scores. Wait I posted something about monks once:

Spoiler

Not really as they get to higher levels their medium BAB starts to effect them more and more and they miss more often (flurry of blows becomes flurry of misses) and their damage is pitiful.

Lets see at 20 they do 2d10 + str or 11+str on average which won't even scratch the monsters (and remember you can't enchant the fists or use enchanted gloves without house rules that allow it) so even if you do hit it won't matter.

AC: How high is your dex and wis? Lets say each starts at 14 and then you have a +6 item for both (72k gold,10% of your total wealth). That gives us a total of +10 AC from those stats and +4 from being a monk for a total of +14. Congratulations you have the same armor bonus from that as a fighter with 12 dex in a +5 full plate (and that only cost him 27k gold).

HP: Again how high is your con? Not that high since you must keep wis and dex high for AC and the DC of your abilities and str high for damage + only d8 hit die = low health.

Skills: 4 points + int (which is going to be low) = yeah you aren't doing much with those skills

But the monk gets a special ability every level that must count for something right?
flurry of blows: Full round action to use on class that has a bunch of movement bonuses (lol?)

Bonus feats: Feats are nice, nothing special but nice.

Evasion: Always good.

Still mind: Are you joking +2 to saves against enhancement one of the most easily resisted schools of magic. But eh lets call this a plus.

Slow fall: Only against walls and for very short distances. A level 1 spell does this better in every way.

Ki strike (magic): Yay now you to can overcome magic damage resistance like your party members have been doing for the last level with their +1 weapons. But wait you say they also get +1 to hit and +1 damage and you don't huh.

Purity of body: Immunity to all nonmagical diseases. Huh that would be good except that every disease you're going to encounter is going to be supernatural or magical (eg all diseases that the undead have and use) = worthless.

Wholeness of body: Right healing is nice but it's only 2x your level so a pitiful amount and it doesn't specify the action for it so by RAW it defaults to a standard action = useless.

Diamond body: A now we´re talking non of that nonmagical bullshit here. Still poisons are rare but lets call this a plus (and really this should be rolled into purity of body and that should give immunity to magical diseases as well).

Abundant step: dimension door once per day at level 12 (5 levels after your casters have benn using it regularly). Ahahaha good one you almost got me there monk class. Wait you're serious? Oh well erm...

Diamond soul: SR = 10+monk level. Huh something actually useful a caster of equal level will have about 50% chance to break through with a spell that allows SR. To bad about all the spells that don't allow SR but still this is quite nice, way to late at 13th level but nice.

Quivering palm: Right lets go over why this sucks. First you must get into melee range of your victim and hit with the attack -> Quite hard at 15th level and if you miss you waste a use.
Second: it allows a fort save with a pitiful dc = another chance for the target to survive
Third: it's useable once a week at a level where your casters are throwing dozen save or die spells every day and your other melee-ers are doing hundreds of damage via charging. -> All but useless.

Timeless body: Yay I guess. Useless if you get it in game since I doubt that a few decades will pass while playing but if you start at 17th or higher feel free to age yourself for the free boost to mental stats. (Also notice how the druid gets this two levels earlier)

Tongue of the sun and moon: Quite useful to bad there is this low level spell called tongues that you have had access to for at least the last 12 levels.

Empty body: Huh that's actually kinda useful. Except for the fact for how short it lasts and for how late you get it and that you can't attack material foes while etheral so really it´s only use is to pass through walls.

Perfect self: Essentially you become an outsider (native) and gain a useless dr/magic. Hey good news many spells like charm person don't work on you anymore it's just to bad that many spells like enlarge person don´t work on you anymore. -> You lose more then you gain with this.

Also to those that are saying multiclassing and using more then one sourcebooks is bad it's not. The Most broken things in the game are in the players handbook (the most broken spells are there and it has the cleric, wizard and druid three of the most powerful classes). Multiclassing lets melee not be useless.

As for OP about your build in your game that build looks fine but if you have access to tome of battle I think the crusader would fit very well with your character concept.

Oh yeah, melee characters NEED to multiclass to be effective. The best Wizards and Sorcerers are usually level 20 Wizards and Sorcerers. Melee classes NEED to branch out into prestige classes.

And the Tome of Battle is AMAZING

 

[Ridonculous_Ninja]

No one mentioned that he is taking a full attack every round AFTER he moves the required spaces for skirmish damage?

 

[Fappy]

The DM should be punishing his saves. As a DM I prefer to exploit an overpowered player's weaknesses in encounters as opposed to making them nerf themselves. I currently have a player with an insane CMB to Trip (Pathfinder) and trips the shit out of non-huge martial enemies. What do I do when this becomes too much? Make enemies that trip and trip him back! Also, dominated him a few times and tripped spammed their healer. It was hilarious.

 

[yaydod]

Well my DM master once said "I do not use alignements becquse it limits too much your choice in play", wich is true in some situations. For example :
You are a lwafull Good character, your companions bother a very powerfull city mage, sends them to another dimmensions equivilante to hell, you cant do much because he didnt threaten you and is no threat to the city.

But i do like to use them as a guide line.
So with that said In your situation i would, poison him, chop his legs off and feed them to him in my secret underground layer (Was able to kill 3 players with a Lawfull Evil priest while they thought I was lawfull neutral/good).

And yes our MD encourages us to be little bastards, thinking how to screw the world over since he will do he same thing to us.

SO just CHOP HIS HEAD OFF and say its a mistake, and if continues to munchkinise make him the fury of your god with your rightous sword, because of all the poor kibolds he sliced open.

 

[R3dF41c0n]

I used to play in a group with an OP Raptoran. The DM can easily counter the Raptoran's mobility by taking the players into a close combat encounter like a labyrinth with low ceilings and close walls.

For open environments I recommend dragons that love to grapple. There are literally hundreds of things the DM can do to counter that player.

 

[Fappy]

I used to play in a group with an OP Raptoran. The DM can easily counter the Raptoran's mobility by taking the players into a close combat encounter like a labyrinth with low ceilings and close walls.

For open environments I recommend dragons that love to grapple. There are literally hundreds of things the DM can do to counter that player.

Grapple counters so many things in D20