A Perfect People, A Perfect World, or; The Eugenics Movement

Womplord

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I think it may end up being a worse idea than you think. Look at everyone who has changed the world. Heaps of them are believed to have been bipolar, or have some other mental health problem. Da Vinci, Lincoln, Newton. It has been speculated that Albert Einstein had Asperger syndrome. Just because someone is different it doesn't mean there is something wrong with them. If no-one is different then nothing will change. We'd be living in the stone age. Besides, who are you to decide what is a 'desirable trait'? I saw someone in this thread advocating eugenics to get rid of red hair. Really? You want to sterilize people for having red hair?
 

phelan511

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chaosyoshimage said:
There is literally a thread on this every week, isn't there? Like some one made a joke about it the other day, it was worth a few chuckles, but I didn't think it was true...

As for my opinion, just like communism, it sounds good until you try it...

I agree... This sounds like something that would look great on paper (less disease, possibly even crime), but in practice.... I think it would end ridiculously bad. Main reason? The people choosing the bad genes from the good will be biased in someway, no matter how infinitesimally minute in said bias. Or, this could well be a way for a group to hold all the power, and lord over everyone else by killing any who seem impure. Are genetic disabilities tragic and horrible? Of course they are. But who the fuck are we to decide that someone shouldnt breed or that someone shouldnt live due to a disability? That's hubris. No one person, or one group can make that call.
 

loc978

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I'm against Eugenics as it stands for entirely selfish reasons... my genes are great, but I don't want to breed. Sex is one thing, but I want nothing to do with raising kids, which is why I'm extremely careful about such things.

Change it up to where they merely take my sperm and use it to make the little monsters, and I'd be fine with it. I'll donate, so long as I get some sort of compensation for my time and DNA... but I really don't want to see the results.
 

IceStar100

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First off I want to say I'm sorry for all the people I;m about to insult. Please know I don't know you as a person nor do I mean this to be hurtful only my view

Ok we know we are over populated so yeah it's time to start trimming the fat. We have to make cut somewhere are we are going to wipe ourselves out. Genetics is a good of place to start as any.
 

tthor

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Labyrinth said:
Honestly, Eugenics movements represent a fundamental misunderstanding of how genes work. They're a recipe, not a blueprint. See, what happens in cells is that strips of DNA are translated to strips of RNA which then travel outside the nucleus. The structure of DNA is familiar. The rungs of that ladder are "bases". Each group of three bases codes for a particular amino acid or sends a command such as start and stop. These amino acids are what make up proteins.

Precisely which strips of DNA are used in the first place is determined by the chemicals in the cell environment and outside it. Also, there are a lot of pretty damn cool chemical machines within the cell which can twist improperly coded proteins so that they can still do their job despite flaws in the DNA leading to flaws in the protein itself. Cells grouped together affect each other, the shapes that they form as tissues and the roles they play.

It's not really possible to take a cell, extract the DNA and say "this is the organism it will produce!" because it's so environmentally variable. There's no guarantee that the same DNA run twice will produce the same result. Likewise it's impossible to isolate genes for personality and the like as so much of this is a result of socialisation. Values are much the same.

However, hereditary susceptibility to diseases like cancer can be found, but that's a specific case where the disease results from flaws within the DNA which mean that cell replication is unlimited. This can be passed on because it's bound up as a part of chromosomes. Trisomy-21, otherwise known as Down's Syndrome is a genetic disorder when a third copy of the 21st chromosome is present. Passing on of Down's Syndrome is more complicated due to the manner in which chromosomes divide to produce sperm and egg. For other things like mental illness it's much harder because of the recipe-role of DNA mentioned above.

So when Eugenics comes along and claims to breed out diseases it mistakes the mechanics of what it's doing, how genetic susceptibility works. Selective breeding is a relatively clumsy process, for all it can produce very dramatic results. It does depend on what one is looking for. I'll use hair colour as the example here. There are two 'spots' for genes which code for hair colour. Both of these can be dominant (two copies of the dark hair gene, dark hair in individual), both can be recessive (two copies of red hair gene, red hair in individual), one could be dominant and one recessive (one for dark, one for red, dark hair would show) or there could be a situation of co-dominance in which the characteristics of both genes show (roan cattle where both types of hair exist). If one is trying to breed for say, red hair, which only shows up when there is no copy of a dominant gene for hair colour present, then it can manifest after generations of dark-haired people because no-one knows that they have the recessive gene. One can take only creatures with red hair to breed which would guarantee the eradication of the dark haired gene as it would not be able to carry on to children, or one can produce red haired creatures from dark haired creatures which have the recessive gene as 1 in 4 of the offspring of two of these would only possess the recessive genes. Eradicating recessive genes is much more difficult because unless you have a "pure-breeding" strain of many generations, there's no guarantee that both copies of the gene for say, hair colour, are of the dominant one.

Not to mention that mutations can always make things crop up again.
I'm sure you would have had a great argument there if you hadn't forgotten that most of us here have pretty short attention spans..(the first 2 paragraphs kept making me drift off, and told me little about eugenics.. paraphrase, please)
 

TacticalAssassin1

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I personally think it's a brilliant idea.
If the probability of the disorder being passed on is large, and it's serious, then yes. Do it. Improve our species.
 

BlackStar42

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I'm against it, because people should be free to decide for themselves if they want to take that risk in having children which might be born disabled. Educate people sure, but you can't justify forced sterilisation.
 

Vault101

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Sep 26, 2010
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alright can somone pelase explain this to me

1. do we mean euganics as in only..and I mean ONLY choosing who has kids and who doesnt? if thats the case does this make any difference?

2. arent there better alternitives? such as getting rid of things pre-birth and.or augmentations Deus ex style? would that be more efficient? and effective?
 

Beryl77

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A lot of people who wouldn't have been allowed to exist, have done great things and other people who wouldn't have the permisstion to live, can live just fine even with some diseases which would be considered bad. What I'm trying to say is, who are we to decide who can live and who shouldn't? No human being should be allowed to decide for someones right to exist.
Thinking to be able to get rid of these diseases is just way to idealistic. Parents with no diseases at all can have children with really bad diseases and parents with a lot of diseases can have healthy children. All this is much more complicated than most people think and I'm not even talking about mutations. I'm sure it would end in failure.
How do we know that it won't be misused? Do you realise how easy it is with the right connection and money, not to let some parents have children, even though they are perfectly health?
Or where will it stop? How can we be sure that this won't go even further and at some point, people who need glasses or who are bald won't be allowed to have children? There's absolutely no guarantee that it won't get out of hand because the only guarantee that we have would be to just blindly trust us humans but like I said at the beginning, that's way to idealistic. There will always be people who'll try to use this, so that they can profit from it.
As long as I'm not 100% sure that this will succeed in a good way (there is also then the question, "what is a good way for it to succeed?"), I just can't agree to this.
So I'll end this it with this again. "Who are you to decide whether I'm allowed to live or not?"
 

Isan

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Tselis said:
As a person with Bipolar, I wholeheartedly agree with any treatment that would remove this scourge from humanity. I am honestly terrified that I have passed this on to my children
Hi Tselis.
Sorry if you've been asked this already (I skimmed through the thread and didn't see it), I realise also that this is a very sensitive subject so if you don't wish to respond that's perfectly understandable.
But...

Why did you have children?
 

The_Echo

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ajemas said:
So if I understand this correctly, those who are not able to contribute good, solid genes to the next generation are not deemed fit to reproduce. You know what, let's say that you have someone with a family history of amyotrophic lateral sclerosis. This is a nasty neurodegenerative disease that can cause muscle control loss to the point of not being able to breathe without assistance, decreased cognitive function, and is fatal with no solid treatment to boot. It makes sense that they shouldn't have kids, right?
Oh wait, doesn't Steven Hawking have that?
Or what about those with mental retardation and bipolar disorder like you said? Take a person with both serious mental impairments and blindness to boot? Why don't you take a look at him play the piano? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_GUPcg25QI
Or what about someone with bipolar disorder? Ask Georg Cantor, who got the Sylvester medal from the Royal Society, which is the highest mathematics honor they can bestow.

It is impossible to determine one's future based on what they are born with and what they can pass down. Each of these people that I have mentioned have made invaluable contributions to their respective fields, which never would have come about if their parents were unable to breed due to a couple of poor genes.
I don't see how any other argument could be better than this, nor do I see any argument for eugenics rivaling this.

Seriously, where would we be if, for some reason, Frank Hawking was secretly sterilized? There are loads of brilliant contributors to humanity throughout history who have or had conditions that are considered 'undesirable' through eugenics.
 

TakerFoxx

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"A year from now, ten, they will swing back to the belief that they can make people better. And I do not hold to that." -Malcom Reynolds.

Forcing perfection on society has always turned my stomach. Sure, it would be great to eliminate those diseases, but forcibly sterilizing people just in the off-chance that it will prevent them from passing along their disabilities? That sounds all kinds of wrong.

Also, my father is bipolar, and suffers from paranoia. And while I did not inherit these traits, I do have Asperger's, OCD and a light case of tourettes. And though I have no current plans to have children, I still would like to have that option open.

So yeah, I'm pretty much against it.
 

RatRace123

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Dec 1, 2009
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Yeah, generally not for this. It may just be me, but the idea of a government sponsored program to weed out bad genetics makes me very paranoid.

Besides, it was mentioned already, but genetics are not definitive blueprints. They're more like helpful suggestions, in the end whatever type of person someone ends up being is a surprise. Stupid people have birthed smart children and smart people have birthed stupid children.

Disabilities, "undesirable traits", predisposition to illnesses; eugenics might cut down on these effects, but not eliminate them completely, and who knows what new mutations the more limited gene pool would be subject to?

And again, the idea of a "perfect race" is just far too nazi-y for my liking. Then there's the social stigma attached to it, even if we did begin the whole perfect race thing, there'd still be a whole bunch of "non-perfect" people out there, would they suddenly matter less or even be qualified as less than human?
 

Gromril

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Well, I'm not a scientist, so I'm not going to pretend to have any idea about genetics. However, I do have a massive moral objection to the idea of eugenics. It's just.....well wrong.

Think about it, all those crazy 'defects' are one of the things that makes us great. People struggle through adversity and achieve more than I, with my twenty twenty vision and decent physical/psychological condition, ever will.

Who the fuck am I to decide what is perfect genetics? What alot of eugenics supporters seem to be chasing spits in the face our species progression. Jesus humanity, have some pride, you stopped being animals a long time ago, so stop chasing some half baked ideal of being 'pedigree'.
 

notimeforlulz

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Womplord said:
I think it may end up being a worse idea than you think. Look at everyone who has changed the world. Heaps of them are believed to have been bipolar, or have some other mental health problem. Da Vinci, Lincoln, Newton. It has been speculated that Albert Einstein had Asperger syndrome. Just because someone is different it doesn't mean there is something wrong with them. If no-one is different then nothing will change. We'd be living in the stone age. Besides, who are you to decide what is a 'desirable trait'? I saw someone in this thread advocating eugenics to get rid of red hair. Really? You want to sterilize people for having red hair?
I don't know if Einstein had asperger or not. But he definitely had asperger level focus; they way he just obsessed about the nature of light and all that. He was also socially non-functional, worked as a patent clerk because he pissed off too many people at the university to get a position there; which should not have been hard for him to obtain, considering his intelligence.

I'm pro gene therapy and anti eugenics. But I'm stuck on the fence when it comes to gene therapy, being partly manic, or basically non-neurotypical is a massive advantage when it comes to leadership, invention and problem solving. But then again, even among manics, only 1 in a million get to change the world; maybe better to let the people who have a genetic predisposition towards such things live with out it; but at any moment be given the option to take a pill that will set their suppressed illness burst out.

Also, the idea that society can be made better, through any means, is just fucking stupid. That sounds depressing but look at it from the point of view that everyone knowing enough to behave themselves, understand the world and not be frightened by it, not have self esteem issues where they need to seek our their perceived inferiors and sterilize them, just so they can find another group of perceived inferiors and persecute them too, is a world that isn't going to happen. Maybe 1 in 1 thousand people actually have the patience and focus to learn these things, or is smart enough to keep their mouth shut till they have learned them.

Mods, I'm getting sick of these damned threads, can you guys make it a ban-able offence and point the OPs to actually read The Origin of Species, in the hopes that the scientific enlightenment of that book will encourage them to choose scientific enlightenment over their ignorance.
 

Brandon237

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I agree with the idea in the OP, as I have said many times before here. I support Eugenics where the child is highly likely to suffer severely or pass on serious genetic defects. As for some people not reading the OP and assuming this is about old eugenics, silly silly people. Or those who read but do not understand... they are far worse.
 

Fieldy409_v1legacy

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wont eugenics basically halt human evolution for as long as its practiced though? Anything that seems immediately bad in the gene pool will be weeded out, and in a million years the human race would be exactly the same as it was, when it could have been better...