A question to the grown adult men of the Escapist

[intheweeds]

WHOA! not even close. He was quoting a point i made in my OP about a situation i was in where i had no problem saying no while drunk. In my case the girl wasn't just 'not saying no' she was actively asking for it. I'm saying the opposite, that the when a girl gets drunk she can act overly sexual, that doesn't mean she is fair game. Women may talk about they're exploits and fuck drunk guys, but:

A) men generally admit to not caring whereas women generally actively find it degrading. Men know this yet do it anyway.
B) Women are not trained by culture to find ego strokes through sexual conquest in the same way men are. In general they are actively viewed negatively for this behavior for right or wrong whereas men are viewed positively - again for right or wrong.

But... those stereotypes are not true.

I mean, they're true if your sample is made up of the nice girls you know and the douchebags that fuck them from time to time, but that's not my experience. Like I said, I've woken up a time or two feeling a whole pantone of regrets. The kind of thing that hits you a week later while you're buying a pack of gum from a vending machine and you go "Aw, shit, I did that, didn't I?"

I assure you I'm not the only one.

And B is a massive generalization. I've high fived female friends bragging about barely-legaling on male coeds. And on female coeds. I've berated male friends for behaving like assholes to girls they wanted to have sex with. And to boys they wanted to have sex with. I've seen drunken bar affairs develop into successful relationships and relationships into failed drunken bar affairs. I have female buddies that have kicked out boyfriends for showing up unannounced because they "appreciate their independence".

Hey, maybe I have really cool friends. I'd like to think they're just mature and can talk about sex in a sensible way.

That, to be honest, is my own selection bias: I actively dislike this whole teenager "will they/won't they" stuff and the whole "is it immoral to have sex under these circumstances" and so on. It feels really childish for some reason, so what I really tend to do in parties when I'm drunk is to walk up to idiots pulling these stunts and just loudly explain to them that they are clearly in the process of fucking each other silly and should just get on with it and leave the rest of us alone for a bit.

Yeah, I'm not too popular in parties.

Two different men have said these generalizations about men are true in this very thread. Perhaps it is a matter of opinion then.

 

[gbemery]

Edit 2: Yes he had also been drinking, but I am of the type that believes, like some posters that being drunk doesn't excuse behavior.

doesn't this negate the morality of the situation just falling on to the guy? I mean if being drunk doesn't excuse behavior, not saying it should, than she was just as much at fault and was clearly able to say no but she didn't so ergo she wanted it too?

that snipped of text is taken out of context. The rest of the edits should answer you question. Yes they are both at fault. I do not disagree she has some blame. I'm asking about what other guys think about this guy. That's all.

Ha! sorry it was right after i woke up. I thought I read past what I quoted but I guess it didn't stick lol nvm scratch my question then.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

As for your girlfriend, I really hope she's doing okay. Whether or not it was rape in the legal sense, it sounds like she did not fully consent and she sounds like she feels taken advantage of. "She doesn't stop you" is not consent in my book, and I doubt it is considered consent by most non-assholes either. If it were my boyfriend or girlfriend I'd probably cut them a lot of slack because this situation sounds a lot closer to rape than to cheating. It's not clear to me how much of conscious decision she was able to make -- even though she was not physically unconscious -- and obviously she's punishing herself over it more than anyone else could.

Really? It sure sounds that way to me. What part of "do you have a condom?" Implies hesitation? If I ask you if you want to go rafting, and you say "Do you have a life jacket", am I meant to presume that means you're not interested?

I understand and appreciate that rape isn't always about shrieking women having their legs pried apart, but I think we need to, at the same time, not trivialize rape and sexual abuse by implying that every lamented drunken fuck is now a criminal offense.

 

[red the fister]

Sounds like she's trying to shirk her responsibilities to me. She wasn't raped but she doesn't seem to want to accept that she was a willing participant. It really is a binary choice; either she had sex against her will or she had sex with her consent.

Wrong. She lives in Canada. Legally consent may not be given by somene who is drunk. She was raped, the guy is a rapist, and if they call the cops he will be charged with Sexual Assault, even if she said "yes" while drunk.

and by that law a husband and wife cannot make love after they reach the point of legal intoxication. how fucktarded is that? and what about a malicious **** who uses that law to destroy the lives of any man she damn well chooses?

that law is patently unjust.

 

[JAWZxZ]

I say 5, it's neutral. She did consent, and they're both drunk. I wouldn't do that, there's nothing more repulsive to me than a girl who's hammered.

 

[Princess Rose]

I think we should just admit to being brain clones right now.

^^ If I had a long, lost non-identical twin brother, I'd suspect you were he.

And your living situation sounds perfect. Most people can't pull of an open marriage. They may like the idea but people inevitably get jealous. Seriously, I'm a little jealous myself.

I actually get that a lot. My response, when people ask me how I'm not jealous when my spouse is having sex with someone not me, is this: why would I be upset by something that makes the person I love happy? And why would the person who loves me be upset by something that makes me happy?

Another way I put it is that it would be like getting jealous of our sex toys.

It helps that my spouse and I were friends for years before we got together romantically. We would go to dinner as friends and talk about our current relationships (particularly when one or the other of them was currently going down in flames). And then, after this went on for several years, we both ended up single at the same time. We still act more like best friends than a married couple - which might explain why we have such a good marriage. ^^

I've never met anyone in real life who views sex the same as me. Fortunately, I've never had anyone falling for me who I don't want to be with. Mostly because all my sexual partners are as drunk as me and looking for the same thing. I've never tried to get involved with anyone I actually care about because everyone I know is very set on the archetypal 'a relationship is a set in stone commitment between two people!' train of thought.

Yeah, that's a toughy. Had that problem myself for quite a few years. In the end, it came down to the fact that one of my friends felt the same way... and then, once we started having sex, the idea of limiting ourselves to just one another seemed silly. We talked about what we wanted, and we set some rules (if I want to have sex with someone, I need to give my spouse a call, and vice versa). And, actually, having that freedom... neither of us has actually used it all that much. Well, that and playing together is usually more fun.

But I digress, and we're really getting off the main thread topic here. ^^ If you want to talk more about this, PM me.

Edit: Did not mean to sound condescending if that's how it came off?

Huh? No, you didn't seem condescending. **blinks in confusion**

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Edit 2: Yes he had also been drinking, but I am of the type that believes, like some posters that being drunk doesn't excuse behavior. In the example I gave of myself in the same situation, I was not only wasted, i was also (for better or worse) super high on coke (it was a long time ago). This means that, yes, she has some blame here for her own actions. She knows that and hates herself, but putting that aside, it's the guys side of this i'm interested in really just now.

From my point of view, if they were both equally drunk, the blame is equally shared. If he was significantly more sober than she is (like, below a five on the scale you were talking about) then he took advantage of her, but otherwise it's just drunk people being drunk.

 

[bug_chaser]

It's been said that drunk actions are sober thoughts. Is this all based on her telling of events? Seems to me that most people don't simply "not stop" someone from having sex with them. There's a few logistics there, everything from finding a private place at a party to undressing to putting on the condom, to say nothing of actually doing the deed.

If they were both equally drunk, I'm not certain why the man would be more guilty of rape than the woman-neither were sober enough to give consent. If they were both a little tipsy, they've got some 'splainin to do. If one was drunk and the other was sober, the drunk one was raped and the sober one should be in jail.

But really, and call me cynical, the whole idea of "not stopping" someone from having sex with me seems feeble. There's a whole lot of "not stopping" that went on before there was sex.

I'll edit in advance to reiterate that if she was too drunk to know what she was doing and this guy led her out of the party to a private place and had sex with her against her wishes and she didn't make any effort whatsoever to communicate to him that the sex was nonconsensual because she was drunk and passing out and really didn't understand what was happening, he's a rapist and should be in jail.

 

[Kingsnake661]

I'm in the, getting plastered isn't an excuse for bad desisions camp. I *do* have sympthy for people who've gotten drunk and done stupid, sometimes life altering stuff, but, it's YOUR responsibility to control YOUR drinking so you can make good choices for YOUR life.

The guy was a prick, for sure. But lots of guys are pricks, it's a well known FACT. Lots of women can as well, so, PEOPLE, lots of PEOPLE are pricks and will take advantage of others at the drop of a hat. It's just reality, no, it's not right, no, it's fair, but it happens and it's up to YOU, the person, to do what you can to midigate it.

This is all assuming what happened is *legal*. Raping someone is a WHOLE DIFFERENT ballgame. But, from what i've read, the women in question doesn't consider herself raped, correct? So, in that case, at the end of the day, dispite the fact I feel sympithic for her, and dislike the actions of the guy, it was still mostly her fault.

 

[Yorkshire_matt]

Edit 4: Setting is important here it seems. This was a work party at a farm out of town. She had worked there for the summer and this was the last night party. She was already hammered and stuck there having planned to stay before he arrived. He was the bosses wife's brother. He apparently came on to her after she had gone to the farmhouse to bed.[/quote]

So she had gone to bed and he came and did this? Has it been reported to the police? because by the sounds of it, its a case of rape

 

[Alexlion]

I have some wonderful men in my life of all ages who i love and trust. Some of them have warned me to be careful around men. More than one has told me "men think differently when it comes to sex, you can't trust them", during a conversation about how i should be careful. I don't want to paint men with any kind of brush, but what is a woman supposed to think when she is being told by trusted men that men cannot be trusted when it comes to sex? Obviously not all men are pigs, I'm being told these things by men i love and trust and who have my best interests at heart? A few of which I have had sex with and are very definitely not pigs? Paradox anyone?

So should i not be worried about men and sex?

EDIT: wow that came off bad. I'm not trying to sound evil. I really just don't understand. That was the reason for making this thread in the first place was to get guys true thoughts rather than whatever i can figure out with my limited understanding of men's minds.

Well, I think what those guys told you was an attempt to explain a very simple fact about men:

They think with their dicks.

That is to say, when an opportunity to get laid occurs, they will often ignore all the rational warning bells in their head to take advantage of the situation that leads to orgasm town the fastest.

Now, guys, before you get upset with me, I realize that this doesn't apply to all of you. Some very respectable and intelligent members of the male sex have taken it upon themselves to be better than that stereotype. To actually think about what they're doing in a situation like that, and to see the consequences instead of the immediate reward.

What your male friends were telling you is that many, many men choose not to.

And worse, many men will actively work the other direction, lying and manipulating to get laid, and then turn around and be ass-hats.

Also, to be fair, it sounds like you were talking to some "White Knights" who were trying to protect you from the other nasty men. That tendency could come from a couple of places - mildly chauvinistic protectiveness, sexual interest (they wanted you, so they warned you away from all other males on the planet), or concern about a specific individual (they knew someone unpleasant who had an unhealthy interest in you and were trying to warn you off). I can't be sure, but those are reasons I've encountered before.

Anyway, to your final question, should you worry about men and sex... yes. But you should also worry about women and sex.

Your girlfriend did something very bad to you, and she seems to be trying to weasel her way out of it by putting all the blame on her male counterpart. And, while he is likely MORE to blame than she is, as has been pointed out, if she was speaking clearly, asking about condoms, and REMEMBERS the events to be able to tell you about them... then she was sober enough to at least realize that what she was about to do would hurt you.

I'm not saying you should break up with her. That isn't my business. And, hell, even if it was, I've cheated before (not on my spouse, but during previous, less open relationships), so I'm usually a proponent of forgiveness. As I am in this case.

What I am saying is that men and women are BOTH dangerous creatures. Every person, male, female, or in-between, has the potential to be a kind and wonderful person, or a vile ass-hat. Or anything in-between. Tread with care.

Thats one of the most sexist things ive ever read apart from mabye the general "get back in the kitchen" rubbish gits think is funny.

Just saying that a couple of men arnt like that doesn't make it any less sexist, if i make a gross generalisation about any ethnic group etc then say "don't get me wrong a couple arnt like that" does not make that any less racist.

Let me make one thing perfectly clear some people are gits some arnt this is not effected by skin colour, ethnicity or sex. People's personality's do not differ greatly because of skin colour or sex they change because of the society they grew up in sure that may mean men where you live are gits but that doesn't mean its because they are men treating it as such is down right insulting.

And before you misunderstand me trust me i do not in any way believe all people are perfect paragons of social justice, we are ALL FLAWED. They act like gits because they are HUMAN that's the key word, all of us have the same fallibility's no matter our sex. Men our no special case we are all capable of the same behaviour, you are not made of sugar and spice and all things nice. Selfish behaviour etc is part of who we are, concious thought is the only redeeming quality of humankind as to rise above our nature. The obvious prejudices you bear are a result of said nature so i where you id get of my high horse.

 

[bug_chaser]

As for your girlfriend, I really hope she's doing okay. Whether or not it was rape in the legal sense, it sounds like she did not fully consent and she sounds like she feels taken advantage of. "She doesn't stop you" is not consent in my book, and I doubt it is considered consent by most non-assholes either. If it were my boyfriend or girlfriend I'd probably cut them a lot of slack because this situation sounds a lot closer to rape than to cheating. It's not clear to me how much of conscious decision she was able to make -- even though she was not physically unconscious -- and obviously she's punishing herself over it more than anyone else could.

Really? It sure sounds that way to me. What part of "do you have a condom?" Implies hesitation? If I ask you if you want to go rafting, and you say "Do you have a life jacket", am I meant to presume that means you're not interested?

I understand and appreciate that rape isn't always about shrieking women having their legs pried apart, but I think we need to, at the same time, not trivialize rape and sexual abuse by implying that every lamented drunken fuck is now a criminal offense.

Just wanted to thank you for this and agree. There is a big difference between doing something you didn't mean to do/doing something you regret/doing something you wouldn't have done before having a few beers and being raped. I'm sure she regrets it, and I'm sure she wants the OP to know just how lousy she feels about it and that she really didn't mean to do it, but that doesn't make it rape.

And, with sympathies to the OP, that doesn't make it forgivable. Lots of relationships survive infidelity, but those relationships don't survive by pretending that it didn't happen. If she won't admit she cheated on you, you don't have much to work with as a starting point to trying to fix your relationship with her and recover.

 

[KiKiweaky]

I've heard of way too many girls get rat assed and blame cheating on alcohol to entertain the idea that its solely the other guys fault. Its both of theirs, the guy for asking and the girl for consenting. Short of being in acoma she should have some form of self control, and the other guy is clearly an arse for approaching a girl he knows has a boyfriend in the first place.

In my case I wouldnt ever approach a girl that I knew had a boyfriend, it just seems wrong to me.

 

[Con Carne]

Neither party is entirely to blame. They both chose to be irresponsible and did so together. How many guys would do that? I don't know. What I do know is that a majority of guys would at least consider it before saying no, or even kick themselves in the ass later or even as they say no. Alcohol usually reduces inhibitions and impairs judgement. So if every fact from this story is true, then we can either be lead to believe that, 1. She really didn't want anything to do with this guy and against her better judgement decided to go against that or 2. She actually doesn't mind the thought of doing anything with this guy and took advantage of the situation to seize the moment which she otherwise wouldn't allow herself to partake in.

You add alcohol to the mix, you can't be sure about anything. IS that an excuse? Hell no. It is however a factor which can't be ignored when making certain actions or dealing with their consequences.

 

[CannibalCorpses]

The people who have mentioned rape...*sighs* WTF? If she had been raped she would have mentioned that im guessing...that would be completely different to what has been described.

The people who have mentioned revenge beatings...*laughs*...if he was given the green light and you go to kick his head in for it you might find yourself on the end of a serious beating yourself or spending some time in a cell.

You know the only real option is to get rid of her, no matter how you feel now, and move on. Or take the submissive route and live with a time bomb waiting to go off at a later date.

I'm dropping out of this conversation now since we only have one side of the story. Asking strangers is a real cop out. Go ask your friends or family what they think...their opinions should be far more important to you than ours!

 

[red the fister]

Don't put your shit on me. I have never once said in this whole thread that i thought she was raped, that i wasn't anything but absolutely furious at her or that i though all men were like this. I have many times explained that i am merely curious about men's thoughts about this being that i am not a man, I would rather hear it from the source(s). You have no idea about my views on sexuality or romance, how open or not I am to anything, so don't rage at me.

You made your views on sexuality clear when you said it was ok to treat all men as potential rapists, and "sleeping with guys is fucking dangerous." I'm a guy. I've never raped, come close to raping, or even thought about raping a girl. I found that comment offensive. If I said "All women are potential harpies and gold-diggers who love to fuck with the minds of men", you'd rightly call me out for being a mysoginist. Yet apparantly you can make the worst sort of generalisations about men, and still get angry when I call you out on it? I think that makes your views on sexuality somewhat clear.

actually, guy, i'm a man (31) and i have caused 2 pregnancies that were potentially lethal to the girlfriends i had at the time, mind you these two women are now best of friends and i dated them more than 5 years apart. and before you demonize me for not using contraceptives they were both on the pill.

true story. consensual, loving sex with contraceptives CAN lead to life threatening circumstances.

captcha: henjoi stein
wtaf, is that some kinda perverted japanese beer mug?