A question to the grown adult men of the Escapist

[Flare Phoenix]

If you believe the guy is responsible for his actions inspite of being drunk then you really have to believe the same for the girl as well. Sorry, but if a girl agrees to it, I don't see anything wrong with it. If a girl chooses to get that drunk that she would lose enough inhibition to have sex with someone she normally wouldn't have, she is more responsibly for it than the guy in my opinion.

So basically, while I'm not saying the guy is innocent in all this, if you're asking whether or not the girl is completely blameless in this situation I'm afraid I have to say she is not.

 

[red the fister]

Sounds like she's trying to shirk her responsibilities to me. She wasn't raped but she doesn't seem to want to accept that she was a willing participant. It really is a binary choice; either she had sex against her will or she had sex with her consent.

Wrong. She lives in Canada. Legally consent may not be given by somene who is drunk. She was raped, the guy is a rapist, and if they call the cops he will be charged with Sexual Assault, even if she said "yes" while drunk.

and by that law a husband and wife cannot make love after they reach the point of legal intoxication. how fucktarded is that? and what about a malicious **** who uses that law to destroy the lives of any man she damn well chooses?

that law is patently unjust.

While legally true, both could only be charged if someone wanted charges pressed. (Much like consenting couples playing S&M games that are technically illegal)

As for "unjust" I haven't heard anyone of any political stripe suggesting the law should be changed, and it has been ruled consutitional at the Supreme Court level.

firstly, what you say makes damn good sense.
secondly, i don't see much actual Justice involved many legal systems
thirdly, the men and women of the courts are just like the rest of us, just like politicians. they won't see something as "wrong" unless they are affected by it. if their grand children, college age, were to be convicted under this law i'm rather certain that they would see it in a new light.

 

[Iron Lightning]

So she's sooooo off her face that she doesn't know what she's doing and has sexual intercourse with this guy, but she still has the capacity to ask for a condom, not once but numerous times??
That's all I'm saying

I completely agree, she seems to have had the presence of mind to consent. Also, I'd like to wonder why she had sex with the bloke if she was concerned enough about his lack of a condom to ask him multiple times.

 

[Haagrum]

IMHO, if someone's vulnerable, they're off limits. No ifs or buts, it doesn't matter why.

I'm not in a position to judge the guy's general behaviour. Both of them have screwed up. However, it appears he's initiated things and (from what the OP has indicated) did so with a clear intention to take advantage of her. Based on that evidence, the guy's a total prick.

 

[CentralScrtnzr]

I don't really see the point; drunk sex is bad sex. A really grand way to offend your partner is to be so bleeding drunk as to be impossible to get off.

 

[MordinSolus]

Hm...I give this a 7 on the grossness scale. That dude should have known about you and her, but so should your girlfriend.

 

[red the fister]

The people who have mentioned rape...*sighs* WTF? If she had been raped she would have mentioned that im guessing...that would be completely different to what has been described.

Well there is no such thing as "rape" in Canada where she is from, but what she described was sexual assault. It's pretty black and white under Canadian law.

Consentual sex while under the effects of alcahol is illegal in Canada? *boggles*

The law does not recognize consent while drunk.

And as I said in another post, its much like S&M. If I tie my gf and take a whip to her butt, I have committed assault. If I tape her mouth closed and have rough sex with her after that, I've committed agrevated sexual assault. Now if I was doing all that because she wanted me to, then I won't get reported and all is good in the world...but I better damn well know what the situation was before we go there.

unless you make a recording, or the pervert across the way sees you through his telescope, or a friend walks in. someone else can make a complaint against the pair of you.

i'm a Sadist. un-involved parties can press charges. at least they can here in america

 

[Jedoro]

I think he deserves to get the shit kicked out of him for sleeping with a drunk chick who he knew had a significant other.

 

[The Gnome King]

With both parties being strangers and hammered in a bar and all things equal otherwise, the idiot girls puts herself at risk, where the idiot guy is putting someone else(her) at risk. He has a biological advantage of being able to not answer phone calls and be gone forever whereas she doesn't. That's what i meant by 'parts'.

Actually, it's women who have all the reproductive power and rights. A man is putting himself at far more risk.

I used to have an employee back when I was a manager for an insurance company; he was 22 and he was paying child support to a woman that he had a kid with. Nobody asked him if he wanted the kid - she had the choice to abort or not; he didn't. He barely had visitation rights to his daughter - the courts still heavily side with the mother on this one - though he was forced, even though he wasn't "ready" - to pay for the child.

A woman, if she's not "ready" - can have an abortion or put the child up for adoption. A man has no such ability. I'm actually all for father's rights, actually - and I support the movement even though my wife and I don't have kids nor do we plan on it. So does my wife; most true feminists I know believe it's necessary if women are ever truly going to be treated equally.

When a man can "abort" his parental rights as easily as a woman can abort hers, then I'll say that he is putting the woman at greater risk than himself.

Also - let's not forget, STDs can pass from females to males. A man who hooks up with a strange woman at a bar is also putting himself at risk for contracting a disease.

So, a woman who ends up with a guy is putting herself at risk for a pregnancy and an STD; a man is putting himself at risk for 18 years of child support payments along with STDs.

Sounds like pretty equal risk to me, if not actually favoring the female.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fathers'_rights_movement

http://www.fathersrightsinc.com/

 

[Reman Khaar]

They're both morally bankrupt and in the wrong. Being drunk is no excuse for either of them.


(That said, however, my morals are somewhere a few meters below the sewage systems. I'd have tapped that.)

 

[McNinja]

Here is the situation. First of all, notice that I am female so this is most definitely not me we are talking about and the situation didn't happen to me, but never the less affects me deeply. Anyway here is the scenario:

A girl is very drunk. An 8-9 on the 1-10 scale of sober to passed out drooling. You know her, you know she has a serious partner and would never entertain you sober. You come on to her asking if you can touch her. she agrees. she seems into it. She asks you several times if you have a condom and you say no, but have sex with her anyway. She doesn't stop you.

I know scales suck, please explain yourself if you reply. On a scale of 1 to 10 where 1 is 'extremely sweet and respectful towards women' and 10 is 'this guy would have fucked her if she was passed out', how bad and/or normal is this guys mindset?

I obviously don't understand male sexuality at all and in my eyes this is extremely disgusting. Like, devastatingly disgusting. I have been in a situation where a girl was naked and begging for it and i left. She was so drunk and horny she was actually pissed at me at the time. But I couldn't have lived with myself the next day, I knew she would never have been there if she wasn't beyond capacity hammered.

What do you think?

Edit: She didn't come on to him, he came on to her and she didn't stop it or say no specifically. I hope that clears that up.

Edit 2: Yes he had also been drinking, but I am of the type that believes, like some posters that being drunk doesn't excuse behavior. In the example I gave of myself in the same situation, I was not only wasted, i was also (for better or worse) super high on coke (it was a long time ago). This means that, yes, she has some blame here for her own actions. She knows that and hates herself, but putting that aside, it's the guys side of this i'm interested in really just now.

Edit 3: I really wanted to try and keep it very impersonal so as to respect the situation and the fact that i have turned to the internet to understand it. I am the 'bloke' she 'cheated' on, so i am very much involved. It is an awkward situation and i love her very much, we have been together for four years and just moved in together. I wish to respect her here - she is absolutely disgusted with herself and can't stop crying. She knows she is wrong as well and neither of us are unclear about that fact, I'm just very curious about men's thoughts about this. Understand I'm not trying to hate on men. My experience with them sexually is limited I just wanted a gauge of your thoughts.

Edit 4: Setting is important here it seems. This was a work party at a farm out of town. She had worked there for the summer and this was the last night party. She was already hammered and stuck there having planned to stay before he arrived. He was the bosses wife's brother. He apparently came on to her after she had gone to the farmhouse to bed.

Well, two things. First, she shouldn't have gotten that drunk. Second, he seems to be the type of fellow who probably wouldn't have stopped if she had said no. It isn't her fault (necessarily, should could've said no). But if she is indeed legitimately remorseful, then both of you should move on. It was a terrible choice, she should learn from it, and not get plastered next time.

 

[red the fister]

ugh. messy thread.
read the whole damn thing.
quoted a few posts.

and now for my on-topic response:
i hope truly awful things happen to that male.
from what i've read, it seems he followed a your drunk girl "home" with the sole intent of putting his dick inside her regardless of her wishes.
i would encourage you two to press charges.
i highly recommend that the two of you seek relationship therapy, i make this recommendation because you seem to want to stay with her and i hope it works out for the pair of you.
your gf MUST be diagnosed to see if she has developed post traumatic stress disorder. it is entirely possible that she could develop it.

i wish you both the best of luck.


also: guy's a fucking douche-nozzle. i hope a moose pushes his car off a mountain.

 

[tautologico]

I think it's hard to say whether it's rape or not because we don't really know how much she was drunk. 8-9 out of 10 it's pretty drunk, but then again as Dr. House says, "people lie", and she may have exaggerated about her drunkenness to feel less guilty. She may even believe she was more hammered than she really was (memory is a fickle ***** for everyone). She may have been drunk enough to be free of inhibitions, but not drunk enough to completely impair her judgement (she consented when he asked if he could "touch" her). People use drunkenness as a excuse for poor behavior all the time, and I doubt she would have given the ok for him to touch her if she didn't feel some attraction towards him, at some level.

However, the guy is a jerk anyway. The only question if he's a borderline rapist or just a regular, deplorable jerk. Once again, I think people in this thread can't really know this.

That's it, but I really don't know the situation (as everyone here) and our opinions don't mean much. I don't think I would ever try to get laid with a drunken girl, and I certainly never did it. I slept with only a few women in my life, all of which I remember very well. One of them was in a one-night stand, but I knew her and neither of us regretted doing it afterwards. So there.

 

[cobra_ky]

A girl is very drunk. An 8-9 on the 1-10 scale of sober to passed out drooling. You know her, you know she has a serious partner and would never entertain you sober. You come on to her asking if you can touch her. she agrees. she seems into it. She asks you several times if you have a condom and you say no, but have sex with her anyway. She doesn't stop you.

This is the key. If you know they aren't willing to have sex with you sober, and you deliberately take advantage of their inebriation to have sex with them anyway, then that's rape. You probably couldn't prove it in a court of law, but that's what it is.

If he didn't know she was drunk, or was just as drunk as she was, then that's a more complicated situation. but taking advantage of drunk people is definitely scummy. i'd put him in the 8-10 range, and i'm only going as low as 8 because of how pervasive that attitude is in our culture.

 

[Worcester Sauce]

Wow, a lot of angry escapists on this thread.

I can't help feel more information is needed;
1) Why is the girl in question not out with her significant other?
2) What happened afterwards?
3) If she broke up with her boyfriend, did she then go out with this new guy?

On the surface, it's bad but on the other hand, if (as asked in my questions) she created a new relationship then all the better.

As for fools trying to demonize men for having sex with girls they meet in bars/clubs/the street, what is your collective problem? Women fought for centuries to be equals to men, equal in every way! Unfortunately we're not, women now have better jobs, better school results, more leniency in courts over sex related cases (divorce, rape,...) and before long will have more political power too.

Having had a chance to observe many couples forming and breaking I have seen that acts like the one mentioned in the question happens all the time and is in fact how i met my current partner. I didn't know she had a boy-friend and she didn't break up with him or tell me until her and I had been together for 3 weeks. We currently live together and have been inseparable for 6 years. This may make me biased but i was also brought up in continental Europe where there isn't a huge stigma regarding sex, it is instead embraced and youths (and adults) are more responsible for it.

As a final note, I'd like to point out that this kind of thing happens every day at thousands of Universities all over the planet, it's not a big deal.

Love,

Worcester Sauce

 

[cobra_ky]

There's this thing called limits. Adults know them and they don't pass them.

if you're an adult, then you know you shouldn't take advantage of drunk people, because they might do something they'll regret in the morning. That's a limit too many "adults" are willing to cross.

 

[floppylobster]

A girl is very drunk. An 8-9 on the 1-10 scale of sober to passed out drooling. You know her, you know she has a serious partner and would never entertain you sober. You come on to her asking if you can touch her.

It all goes completely wrong here. Not that I'm religious but 'thou shall not covet...'. It's clear he had feelings (lustful or otherwise) from her well before the party. He does not seem able to control them. If these are people at the age in which they have jobs and work parties then there is really no excuse. He should have cleared the idea of coming on to her from his mind long behind the party because she has a serious partner. Obviously he didn't, the alcohol lowered the barrier that kept him trying this in a normal social situation and his true lack of respect for her, her partner and himself has been revealed.

Unfortunately she has shown a lack of respect for herself and her partner too... If she's conscious enough to ask for a condom then she knew what she was about to do.

EDIT: Also, I'm surprised at how many 'grown adult men' at the Escapist we seem to have commenting here. I had no idea...

 

[Gudrests]

I have been in a situation where a girl was naked and begging for it and i left.
Edit 3: I really wanted to try and keep it very impersonal so as to respect the situation and the fact that i have turned to the internet to understand it. I am the 'bloke' she 'cheated' on, so i am very much involved. It is an awkward situation and i love her very much, we have been together for four years and just moved in together. I wish to respect her here - she is absolutely disgusted with herself and can't stop crying. She knows she is wrong as well and neither of us are unclear about that fact, I'm just very curious about men's thoughts about this. Understand I'm not trying to hate on men. My experience with them sexually is limited I just wanted a gauge of your thoughts.

Wow....begging for it?..idk what to say...1 break it off with her she clearly cant handle being alone and in a relationship 2 that guy is a 8-10 easy...thats fucked up...3 knock him out....pretty much sums up your next 3 steps in life. Good luck and I hope that never happens to you again man...it blows

I think a lot of people can attest to the fact that a woman can be very different when she gets drunk when it comes to this kind of thing. If a woman is so drunk that she is dancing on tables and taking her clothes off, etc. It means she is stupid drunk. It doesn't mean she is fair game because she looks like she wants it is all i was saying. Its actually not that uncommon a scenario for a girl to be overly sexual when she gets overly drunk.

Ok I do see your point.....my point 2 and 3 still stand. rock this fgt's lights out.

 

[red the fister]

your narrow minded view of the world reeks of someone with virtually no experience with alcohol.

i've drank my bank account dry.
i've drank to escape feelings.
i've gotten absolutely bat-shit pants-on-head retarded because that was my plan when i walked into the bar.
when the good tasting drinks got to expensive i switched to cheaper beer.
on the average drinking night, which happens 2 or 3 nights a week (rarely more) i consume no more than 4 beers and no fewer than 2.
responsibility comes with maturity and you have to survive being irresponsible and immature to get here.
i challenge you, go to your local bar during happy hour, have a beer, make friends, broaden your world.

There's this thing called limits. Adults know them and they don't pass them.

If you have to drive you limit yourself to a single glass at the start of the evening, because you know that if you drink more you could cause an accident.

If you're in a committed relationship you limit yourself to get only slightly drunk, because you know that if you drink more you could ruin your relationship by cheating.

If you're out alone you limit yourself to not getting totally hammered, because you know that if you drink more you won't be able to get home and can get into all kinds of serious trouble.

If you're out with friends able to take care of you you limit yourself to getting totally hammered, because you know that if you drink more you'll get alcohol poisoning and get hospitalized.

An healthy adult knows his/her limits. That means that in a committed relationship, as the girl was, you don't get as drunk as she was.

Being irresponsible and immature is fine in and of itself, but it does make you unfit for a serious relationship (as say living together, as the girl in question was). It means you need a parent and not a serious partner.

She should dump her, because her girlfriend is clearly immature and irresponsible and thus not ready for a relationship as serious as living together after having been together for 4 years.

i see that you're an astonishing 21/22 years old.
it's wondrous how wise we think we are at that young age.
what's even more amazing is how foolish we realize we were...

you parrot the lines that you are told by alcohol-awareness groups.

a drink every other hour, be it a shot, glass of wine or a beer will leave the average person well under the legal BAC limit of .08% (PA). a 4-glass pitch at the start of the night (8-9pm) followed by food and soft-drinks until closing (1-2am, my local bars) will allow the liver to bring your BAC down to around the .04%-.06% range. it takes a healthy liver about an hour to lower the BAC by .02%

not only am i a Sadist, as i mentioned earlier, but i'm also a trained Bartender.

and as the OPs gf thought then she made plans to stay the night, when you're drinking with ppl you trust: have fun, get smashed if you think it's fun.


captcha: ride onsutu

 

[zelda2fanboy]

People of both sexes make poor decisions when they are drunk. This is why I do not drink or hang out with people who do. If I had to rate the guy on a grossness scale, I'd give him about a four. I'd also rate the girl about the same. There too much hubbub when it comes to sex anyways. Did she get pregnant? Did she get herpes? If the answer was no and I was her boyfriend/husband, I honestly wouldn't be too upset, outside of her just behaving recklessly and irresponsibly.

As far as blaming the man for initiating it? I don't buy it. I feel like (and this is speaking from a hypothetical drunken animalistic point of view, not sensible reasonable thinking) it was more her decision to have sex than his. She was surrounded by peers and friends. She could have very easily have said no at any point, and the entire interaction would have been over. She allowed him into her. He did not force his wee wee upon her, but merely presented said wee wee. This presentation could have occurred from him just standing there not even attempting to make a play. It's drunken logic, sure, but that was the situation. It's like vampires. They can only come in if you invite them. Are drunk girls somehow unable to say no and exempt from responsibility when they are taken advantage of by some dirty, dirty man?