Furnacewhelp said:
--More variation within the pattern decreases repetition. Cave, camp, mine, ruin, cave, camp, mine, ruin is more repetitious than Cave, camp, mine, ruin, hut, giant camp, grove, animal den.
--That's one of biggest complaints people have with Skyrim. Once you have been through a few caves they all start to feel the same. Putting space and content that is more varied between the caves cuts down on that feeling.
--Did I say that? No, I didn't say that. There is a guy in Whiterun who's only job in the game is to chop wood. He doesn't give any quests. He doesn't give any useful information. He is pure background fluff. Giving him dialog and a daily routine is a complete waste of developer time because the vast majority of people will barely recognize that he exists. Giving the Jarl of Whiterun dialog, a background and a daily routine is perfectly acceptable.
--Wrong. Take those books for example. With procedural generation, a simple code could stop those 3rd era books from spawning in any Drauger dungeon. The fact that they show up there now is because someone put them there when hand crafting the dungeon.
--Minecraft's world is more repeating because the game is only 60mb. If it took up nearly 6gb like Skyrim does, you would probably never run into the same thing twice.
--If I go into my kitchen and look at the knives I have in there I see a lot of variation. Some have wooden handles, some have plastic. Some are serrated, some are straight edged. Some are older than others, some are duller than others. Some are large, some are small. Not every knife is created equally.
--And why can't an iron dagger be better than a dagger made by elves? Is an elven blacksmith who just started an apprenticeship better than a human blacksmith who has been honing his craft for over 50 years? Just because one dagger is made with moonstone doesn't mean it's quality automatically surpasses all daggers made with iron.
--Skyrim does not do this. If I go into a cave, kill the bandits inside and look at their character models, then start a new game, do the same thing and compare the character models the my other game, they will be the same. In Left 4 Dead, if I kill a zombie in a red shirt, then start a new game and go back to that same spot, there's a very good chance that the zombie with the red shirt won't be there.
--Again, proper coding can prevent things from showing up where they logically shouldn't. But if I make my way through some Dwemer ruins destroying all of the contraptions inside and have to leave some loot behind because it weighs too much, it wouldn't make much sense if I returned to find all of the contraptions working again. It wouldn't make sense to kill all of the bandits in a cave only to return later to find more bandits that look like, act like and have the same equipment as the bandits I killed before.
--So it doesn't make sense that the forsworn would, having stolen something, hide in a cave from any possible pursuers?
--Try, "more for the sake of greater variation." In any game, whether it's done in enemy design, items, locations, whatever; more variation equals more possibilities. More possibilities equals more fun. Less variation equals more repetition, more repetition equals boredom.
--Problem with that is, all possible dungeon types, that should logically be there, are already used within a given area. Random content would not increase variation in the patterns, it would only increase repetition.
--Putting in dead space does literally nothing to combat that, and again, randomly made content can only make dungeons feel more samey by more constant re-use of dungeon interior areas over and over again. So that would only make the problem worse.
--Actually, he does serve a purpose, if Belethor gets killed, that guy, who is his apprentice, takes over his job, and offers the services Belethor did.
--You are aware that loot inside dungeons is placed by a random loot system and not by the dev? Things like books on shelves in dungeons are randomly chosen each time you start the game by the loot generator, the work on the same system that chests do.
--You would run into the same thing multiple times because unlike minecraft, which just spews its world, a randomly generated area of Tamriel would be equally repetitious, even if it was 6 gigs large, because local areas within a game, and the places in those areas would logically be similar to each other.
--No, but every 9 inch stainless steel knife with a wooden grip is made the same. Your analogy is off because you are comparing multiple types of knifes, against one type of iron dagger.
--Elven material is better then iron, just like daedric material is better then ebony. a ebony dagger will always be better then a iron one, and an elven one wil be better then an iron one as well, because of the material used.
--well you are provably wrong. Its mentioned not only on the wiki, but even minor observation will show its false. Draugr are the easiet ones to spot the errors, since due to the random generator of Skyrim, female draugr can have beards. And furthermore, yes you can start a new game and go into a cave and get different character models each time, literally, its incredibly easy to test.
--Actually it would since
1. Dwemer machines have been running constantly for over 4,000 years making new constructs, and those constructs can repair each other.
2. Bandits across Skyrim are roughly equally equipped, so them moving into a cave of a previously defeated bandit group would mean you should face enemies of the same type as before.
--Does it make sense the Forsworn would have hidden in a cave, when they have a camp not to far from the cave? No.
--Except, as proven already, it does NOT offer greater variation, it offers more repetition.
Smeatza said:
--Incorrect, I don't recall ever seeing jungle or desert in Skyrim. Or rolling hills or giant chasms in the ground. In fact the only way that Skyrim has more variety of world is in the settlements, and even then it's only in a few ways.
--I would debate whether it was "highly" criticised. But there's no doubt that collecting loot in Borderlands is much more exciting than doing so in Skyrim.
--In a very limited manner.
--In the lore the Draugr awaken in order to clean and maintain the tomb. They awake in shifts.
--No he's asking for more variety. Don't play willfully ignorant.
--But single player games should be incredibly easy to balance.
--No it's not, your calculation there would require the player to be in possession of a horse at the very start of the game. It would need to stay alive throughout the entirety of the game and be usable in towns and dungeons. You also have to take into account the decreased mobility, reduced combat capability while on a horse and the amount of time you spend watching animations, getting on and off the horse..............
--It's not the consumers fault if the developer designed the game in a way that makes part of the game boring and borderline pointless
--You must be terribly unobservant then, because, Whiterun is vast rolling plains, Morthal is a large swamp, Eastmarch is volcanic hotsprings, The Rift is a large forest of autumn trees, Falkreath is a large forest of a more typical nature, tall oak like trees that are green leaved, Winterhold is snowy and full of steep glaciers, The Pale is a valley with tall mountains on either side, so there is quite a bit of variation.
--There is plenty of doubt, getting loot in Borderlands is boring because 90% of all the guns are useless as crap, at least is Skyrim, due to its level scaling nature, there is a higher chance that most of what I find will be useful.
--It should only be in a limited manner, or else we end up with more silly things like female Draugr with beards! which Skyrim is prone to occasionally doing. One of the flaws of "random" anything. illogical spawn appearances.
--You forget that the Draugr's spirits dont reside in thier bodies until awakened. Killing their mortal bodies only causes them to "die" temporarily, until the mags that keep them "alive" recalls their souls from Sovengade back into their bodies, so that they might rise again. Killing them is only ever temporary.
--I am merely responding to his posts as he makes them.
--Actually, they should be harder to balance because, due to the nature of there not being other players to have to interact with, single player games can offer a larger variety of powers and strengths, which requires more effort to balance then a multiplayer game where everything is highly limited in scope.
--You can get a horse in whiterun less then 30 minutes after the game has started.
--Horses are dirt cheap to buy, meaning you should never be without a horse, also, shadowmere from the DB, and Advak from Dawnguard, both immortal horses.
--You dont have decreased mobility on a horse..... its actually faster.
--Horse combat. Also, you shouldn't need to fight anything while traveling between locations.
--which are about 1 second each.
--That's actually because most people have run always on, and dont ever walk in Skyrim, so the increase between player and hrose speds feel lower then it actually is.
--Well they aren't so, please try again.
-Well its not pointless, unless shaving off 19ish hours from your game is useless.
Smeatza said:
OT: I agree with OP. Although I think the boring travel is more of a symptom of a larger problem. A lack of atmosphere or depth. Like has been said previously in the thread, Serana is the only character in the whole game, with the slightest hint of personality. The towns feel static and unchanging, the choices boil down to evil or not, if it even gives you a choice. Important plot points that are vital to the lore are reduced to one or two (maximum) lines of dialogue that never gets mentioned again.
The developers need to play some of the Deus Ex series before they release the next installment.
--I do pray that your joking... Alduin, Tullius, Ulfric, Balgruuf, the Daedric lords, Parthuunax, Esbern, The Greybeards, Cicero..... all have quite a bit of personality.
--There are no evil choices in TES, only those that allow you to help forces of change, or deny them.
--That happens literally never in Skyrim. There is not a single lore important event that is just one or two lines of dialog.
