a social experiment on racism

[lacktheknack]

Racism is wrong on a conceptual level, not a higher level. We should be attacking racism in any form and not focusing on subcategories.

All racism is wrong, certainly. Different forms work differently, and some are more pervasive and more powerful than others. The racism suffered by minorities is generally much more of a problem than that suffered by the majority.

It still warrants a crackdown on all of it, though. If you crackdown on the more egregious offenders and ignore the smaller offenders, you'll only make it worse because the egregious offenders will use the selective treatment as further justification for their awful behavior.

 

[V4Viewtiful]

When someone says Black people can't be racist they are correct.

Black people can't be racist? Do you even own a dictionary? Racism is prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one?s own race is superior. THAT is racism. If you are from a certain race (doesn't matter which) and you hate another person because he is from another race. Then you are racist.

Black people can't be racist is one of the dumbest statements ever.

There's a saying that's used around, "racism is prejudice plus power". Now, this is for a specific definition of racism (or other ism), the point being that things are very different when society is on your side.

A white person who hates Asians, and a Japanese person who hate white people might have similar amounts of prejudice, but how it operates will be very different if they are in the US or Japan.

In that sense, black people (in the US or UK or Australia, say) can't be racist (in the same way that white people can).

Interesting point. But that is a matter of perspective. Racism is not accepted by society as is clearly shown in this thread. Yet the individual is still racist as often is experienced in daily life. The fact that the USA has a black president shows that their society no longer accepts the statement that black people are inferior. Yet black people still have to deal with daily life problems like lower wages and hate/bigotry. But if a black person calls "racism" and he gets media attention (society learns of it), then his aggressors are in for a heap of trouble. So who has the actual power in that scenario.

(I don't live in america. I'm from belgium so this media thing is kind of based on how it is like here. I don't know if it applies to the US)

I don't think you can use Obama as an example, Bush did so bad I have no doubt they'd have let a Mexican be president XD (sorry Mexican posters, I couldn't resist.)

You are kinda right as over the years the system has changed so any ethnic minority can get up in the world (to often it involves selling out) but those that do have to tackle covert-racism as opposed to the old overt stuff, during the civil rights movement, I forgot who, but one of the protesters demanded for the government and the black community to not receive handouts/welfare because at the time they where already poor but then they'd be dependent on the system and now a large proportion of ethnic minorities are.
But that's maybe oversimplifying it, I suppose.

 

[RoonMian]

That isn't just semantics. When you say that racism is just hatred of different races you a) oversimplify the issue and b) you perpetuate the false belief that there are biological dividing lines between human beings that in a lot of heads are the actual foundations for hate and discrimination. Also saying that what I described was just "discimination" is jumped waaayyy too short as racism has especially in modern times (since the 20th century) evolved into something that goes far beyond glaring differences like skin colour. The anti-semitism of the Nazis was racism. Yet they had to force Jews to wear a star on their clothes because just by looking at them you couldn't tell "proper" Germans and "un-German" Jews apart. Today there's loads of cultural racism about how we have to parent like Asians do with unemotional punishing etc. because of notions that Asians are academically superior and stuff.

Okay, if you want to ignore the semantics and we look at it purely biological then yes we are all one race. Then racism doesn't exist (unless you hate cats or something). Discrimination is the way to go. Because if you look up discrimination in the dictionary, then you will read the exact definition as you described it. Racism doesn't exist, only discrimination does. I still don't understand your point. Racism is a subcategory of discrimination. Discrimination is very bad. So is racism (if you acknowledge its existence that is). So again: what is your point?

No, racism does exist. As you said, it is a special point under discrimination. It just isn't about actual biological races, as those don't exist. Just like feminism isn't about female domination, yet isn't called "equalinism" (thanks, spell check for telling me that is wrong), the simple, 6-letter word "racism" is a product of a time when people thought "races" were an actual thing but today we know that racism is about so much more than that. That word has evolved, the meaning has evolved and today just saying "it means hating other races" doesn't do the word and the ideology behind it any justice anymore.

My point is for people to stop clinging to "races" when defining racism, to stop perpetuating the myth that there is such a thing. Today's actual racism goes far beyond that, is far from being so simple. As other posters have already said it's also about power structures, majorities and minorities, privileges, history, culture, ethnicity, ideologies etc. Dictionaries tend to just ignore that for brevity but there is a reason why the Wikipedia article on "Racism" is huuuge with a ton of citations instead of just saying "hating somebody else's race".

 

[iseko]

Interesting point. But that is a matter of perspective. Racism is not accepted by society as is clearly shown in this thread. Yet the individual is still racist as often is experienced in daily life. The fact that the USA has a black president shows that their society no longer accepts the statement that black people are inferior. Yet black people still have to deal with daily life problems like lower wages and hate/bigotry.

I disagree with that. Society, after all, is made up of these individuals.

Obama being PotUS is often cited as proof that the US is no longer racist. While it may be true that racism is a lesser issue than it was, large elements of US/western society are still openly racist, and there are still strong racist attitudes in those who aren't.

The individual does not represent society. A minority of people can ruin it for the rest. If you have a group of 10 people. 9 white people and 1 black. 1 of the white people is racist towards the black person. That does not make all white people racist. However, society (all 10 people except the racist prick) will not condone such behavior. So you don't have to believe it but it is the way I see it.

 

[Lightknight]

Basically the event is run by a woman who wants white people to understand racism. She segregates them into a blue-eyed group (all white) and a brown eyed group (mostly black/asian)

So she believes that all white people fail to understand racism? That's, somewhat funny to adhere to a racists stereotype to make a point about racism.

For example, I'm a white male. But my first internship with the government did something interesting. Of the 50 or so employees at the company, only 4 were white. Only 1 of those 4 had a job above the mail room position that they called "administration" (the 1 exclusion was a lawyer which was a difficult position to fill). Around 45 of the employees were female. This was in an area where white people make up 85% of the population and black people make up just under 10%. There was no possibility for advancement as a white male in that company. The hiring manager was female hispanic and was quite cold to those of us in the mail room.

I'm fully aware of the impact of blatant racism and I'm offended that this woman assumes we don't experience racism too. However, racism does decrease with exposure so it's not bad for her to make a point to try to show people who don't know what it feels like to be discriminated against is ok. But racism in general is an issue all across the board. It's only more noticeable when a bigot is actually in the power position to act on their racist beliefs (e.g. Sterling's actions are a lot more effective than if one of his players was found to be particularly racist).

When someone says Black people can't be racist they are correct.

Black people can't be racist? Do you even own a dictionary? Racism is prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one?s own race is superior. THAT is racism. If you are from a certain race (doesn't matter which) and you hate another person because he is from another race. Then you are racist.

Black people can't be racist is one of the dumbest statements ever.

don't quote the dictionary, they categories the most popular meanings, not always original or accurate.

like I said Racism is a system and a more accurate word is bigotry, Black people can't be racist for the simple fact that they don't control the system.

I should have clarified, Racism from black in the west isn't so because we can't hold back another race economically socially or lawfully. African nations though that can apply.
Without a system in place to enforce it racism is powerless.

Racism is generally just prejudiced opinions or discrimination of others. Look, I don't "control" the system anymore than you do. Do you really think there's a secret white power control meeting taking place regularly across america where we all get together and make plans to keep people down? Yeah, there are small asshole groups that get together over a hatred of minorities (like the KKK, obviously), but that's certainly not everyone and likely an extreme majority.

Black people can absolutely be in situations that they fully control. But saying that someone can or can't be racist because of the color of their skin is an easy example of racism and bigotry. Racism is toothless in the absence of power to act on it, but it's racism all the same. People can commit acts of violence and discrimination in whatever small areas of control they have. From mugging a person in the street because they are a certain color to withholding services or jobs because of it.

 

[iseko]

No, racism does exist. As you said, it is a special point under discrimination. It just isn't about actual biological races, as those don't exist. Just like feminism isn't about female domination, yet isn't called "equalinism" (thanks, spell check for telling me that is wrong), the simple, 6-letter word "racism" is a product of a time when people thought "races" were an actual thing but today we know that racism is about so much more than that. That word has evolved, the meaning has evolved and today just saying "it means hating other races" doesn't do the word and the ideology behind it any justice anymore.

My point is for people to stop clinging to "races" when defining racism, to stop perpetuating the myth that there is such a thing. Today's actual racism goes far beyond that, is far from being so simple. As other posters have already said it's also about power structures, majorities and minorities, privileges, history, culture, ethnicity, ideologies etc. Dictionaries tend to just ignore that for brevity but there is a reason why the Wikipedia article on "Racism" is huuuge with a ton of citations instead of just saying "hating somebody else's race".

I'm having a hard time with this. So black people can't be racist because they have no power in western society? Well, then I can't be racist either because I have zero power over anyone. Not particularly rich (not poor either). I don't have people working under me. Yeuy for me!

I know that is a ludicrous example. But if a black person walks by me and calls me a dirty cracker, that is not racism? That is just... stupid. This entire discussion is the problem with the modern world in my eyes. Racism is simple: you hate a person from another race (races as defined by human society) because he is from that race? You're a racist. There are no special rules on how to be racist. You don't get a free pass on hating other people in my eyes.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Basically the event is run by a woman who wants white people to understand racism. She segregates them into a blue-eyed group (all white) and a brown eyed group (mostly black/asian)

So she believes that all white people fail to understand racism? That's, somewhat funny to adhere to a racists stereotype to make a point about racism.

You're stretching a bit there. It's fair to say that many white people aren't very informed about racism, nobody said that all of them aren't.

The individual does not represent society. A minority of people can ruin it for the rest. If you have a group of 10 people. 9 white people and 1 black. 1 of the white people is racist towards the black person. That does not make all white people racist. However, society (all 10 people) will not condone such behavior.

Ah, in that sense, yes.

However, to extend that metaphor, in my experience, it's not a matter of having one person racist, in the sense of overtly hating black people, and the rest not. You'll have the one that doesn't consider themselves racist, but who keeps finding some reason why "this particular" black person isn't as good as "this particular" white person. You'll also have two or three that aren't particularly racist, but just don't want to know. Some of these will get angry with the black person for keep bringing up the problem. Some of the remainder will have vague feelings that the black person isn't quite as good for some reason, but they mstly keep it under control.

Now, only one person is therefore actively and overtly racist, but there's still a wide streak of racism sentiment throughout the group.

 

[V4Viewtiful]

no, the point is they ONLY get to play criminals...they get typecast into narrow roles

Um... one of the most common roles for black actors is "president of the united states" because people like to try to get someone that looks vaguely like the actual current president.

Denzel Washington mostly plays police and military officers, and his most recent deviation was to play a pilot. Jamie Foxx plays things like technicians who get superpowers and white-collar workers apart from his movies that are INTENTIONALLY racist (Django). Tracy Morgan plays the generic comedy spread and his longest-running role was as an upper-class twit.

Where are you getting 'only play criminals'? Even if you only watch crime dramas, minority races are pretty well-represented on the law enforcement side. You're complaining about something that hasn't been true since the 1970s, really.

Well you can't compare Jamie or Denzel, I mean yes they did have to work twice as hard in order to end up in those good roles you described, but Fox like many black people (chris Rock, Bill Cosby etc) had to cater to the lowest common denominator to get to a damn good position, they also had to work with their own people in oddr to get big too, Dave Chappelle was huge but he realized what he was doing just to get respect and he stop.

Your both right but most started at the below the bottom.

 

[SerBrittanicus]

I think its a good test and her methods show how groups such as UKIP or other far right "extremist" parties/groups have turned a lot of the white population in britain against the islamic population

I disagree that political groups are to blame. Believe it or not people don't usually take too well to their culture being entirely replaced as has happened in most of the major cities of the UK - especially Bradford, large parts of the West Midlands, Leicester and London. This is especially true if large groups in the new culture subscribe to homophobic, misogynistic views, which are better suited to the dark ages. That is without even mentioning the activities that are carried out in the name of Islam in the UK - ie school takeovers, bomb attacks and murder of armed service personnel amongst others. When the Irish stopped attacking the civilian population of the UK the racism directed towards them significantly and I believe that if the extremist elements in the Muslim population can also be eliminated they may also see a similar decrease (how we would go about doing that I dont know, as it isn't as clear cut as it was with Ireland). In any case they should be integrating into British culture - that doesn't necessarily mean completely abandoning their own culture, but we should be taking the best bits of their culture and integrating it into our own and abandoning the shitty bits.

 

[iseko]

Ah, in that sense, yes.

However, to extend that metaphor, in my experience, it's not a matter of having one person racist, in the sense of overtly hating black people, and the rest not. You'll have the one that doesn't consider themselves racist, but who keeps finding some reason why "this particular" black person isn't as good as "this particular" white person. You'll also have two or three that aren't particularly racist, but just don't want to know. Some of these will get angry with the black person for keep bringing up the problem. Some of the remainder will have vague feelings that the black person isn't quite as good for some reason, but they mstly keep it under control.

Now, only one person is therefore actively and overtly racist, but there's still a wide streak of racism sentiment throughout the group.

True. But that goes both ways. Black people can be racist to white people because they were treated poorly by another white person before. Which is where the circle of hate comes from. I'm not above racist thoughts. I wasn't always like this but I have had... unfortunate run ins with foreigners before. Noone is 100% without racist thought. Not white/black/chinese/indian/whatever. But you have to able to rise above it. Which is hard but in the end the prejudice can completely dissapear (for an individual person). Then again: I'm prejudiced against certain types of white people. If I see a 20 year old in sweat pants and a basebal cap... yea...

 

[RoonMian]

No, racism does exist. As you said, it is a special point under discrimination. It just isn't about actual biological races, as those don't exist. Just like feminism isn't about female domination, yet isn't called "equalinism" (thanks, spell check for telling me that is wrong), the simple, 6-letter word "racism" is a product of a time when people thought "races" were an actual thing but today we know that racism is about so much more than that. That word has evolved, the meaning has evolved and today just saying "it means hating other races" doesn't do the word and the ideology behind it any justice anymore.

My point is for people to stop clinging to "races" when defining racism, to stop perpetuating the myth that there is such a thing. Today's actual racism goes far beyond that, is far from being so simple. As other posters have already said it's also about power structures, majorities and minorities, privileges, history, culture, ethnicity, ideologies etc. Dictionaries tend to just ignore that for brevity but there is a reason why the Wikipedia article on "Racism" is huuuge with a ton of citations instead of just saying "hating somebody else's race".

I'm having a hard time with this. So black people can't be racist because they have no power in western society? Well, then I can't be racist either because I have zero power over anyone. Not particularly rich (not poor either). I don't have people working under me. Yeuy for me!

I know that is a ludicrous example. But if a black person walks by me and calls me a dirty cracker, that is not racism? That is just... stupid. This entire discussion is the problem with the modern world in my eyes. Racism is simple: you hate a person from another race (races as defined by human society) because he is from that race? You're a racist. There are no special rules on how to be racist. You don't get a free pass on hating other people in my eyes.

Nonononono, you're confusing me. I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt that this was not an intentional strawman but just happened because you were holding two discussions at once

I never said blacks couldn't be racist or only whites could be. Quite the contrary. For example what happened in Ruanda and Burundi in the 90s was very much racism. It was about power struggles, minorities and majorities but all involved were black and it the end there were 1.000.000 people dead.

What I am saying is that either you lose the word "race" when defining racism or if you are hell bent on clinging to it use the qualifier "as defined by human society" though I still find it silly to jump through that hoop if the actual meaning of the actual biological expression "race" is 100% not applicable to human beings.

But for your example: While I would never say that the black person using a racist slur against wasn't acting racist the problem here and why other people see racism differently than you is that this kind of racism, white guy hearing a mean word on the street, is nowhere near the kind of racism a lot of black people face. Not the same origins, not the same consequences, not the same connotations. Which is why in the perspective of a lot of people it isn't the same thing. For you and me it still both falls under the term racism.

But I have no problem with the intellectual effort of defining the term broadly while still looking at it in a differentiated way. You on the other hand seem to see it in a very narrow way, hence how we got into this discussion.

 

[Lightknight]

No, racism does exist. As you said, it is a special point under discrimination. It just isn't about actual biological races, as those don't exist. Just like feminism isn't about female domination, yet isn't called "equalinism" (thanks, spell check for telling me that is wrong), the simple, 6-letter word "racism" is a product of a time when people thought "races" were an actual thing but today we know that racism is about so much more than that. That word has evolved, the meaning has evolved and today just saying "it means hating other races" doesn't do the word and the ideology behind it any justice anymore.

My point is for people to stop clinging to "races" when defining racism, to stop perpetuating the myth that there is such a thing. Today's actual racism goes far beyond that, is far from being so simple. As other posters have already said it's also about power structures, majorities and minorities, privileges, history, culture, ethnicity, ideologies etc. Dictionaries tend to just ignore that for brevity but there is a reason why the Wikipedia article on "Racism" is huuuge with a ton of citations instead of just saying "hating somebody else's race".

I'm having a hard time with this. So black people can't be racist because they have no power in western society? Well, then I can't be racist either because I have zero power over anyone. Not particularly rich (not poor either). I don't have people working under me. Yeuy for me!

I know that is a ludicrous example. But if a black person walks by me and calls me a dirty cracker, that is not racism? That is just... stupid. This entire discussion is the problem with the modern world in my eyes. Racism is simple: you hate a person from another race (races as defined by human society) because he is from that race? You're a racist. There are no special rules on how to be racist. You don't get a free pass on hating other people in my eyes.

The comment they're making is racist in two ways.

1. Assuming that black people don't/can't hold power (I can think of at least one obvious example but thousands of effective examples where this is false. Millions that I likely don't know of).
2. Assuming that a white person has control over the situation because of the color of their skin.

I'm sorry, but the comment is bigoted regardless of the intention of the poster. You should not only be having a difficult time accepting that statement but should be actively offended by it. In fact, black people should be offended by this claim that they can't have power either. As less than 15% of the US population, there is remarkably high representation of African Americans in society from the position of the president to all areas of government in any branch to manager positions all across the country. The system has encouraged this and white people have championed the cause of equality right along side black people. With such a huge disparity in numbers you cannot gain equality without the majority on your side, which happened and continues to happen to the point where any known instance of overt racism will blacklist the person in today's society.

 

[V4Viewtiful]

Basically the event is run by a woman who wants white people to understand racism. She segregates them into a blue-eyed group (all white) and a brown eyed group (mostly black/asian)

So she believes that all white people fail to understand racism? That's, somewhat funny to adhere to a racists stereotype to make a point about racism.

For example, I'm a white male. But my first internship with the government did something interesting. Of the 50 or so employees at the company, only 4 were white. Only 1 of those 4 had a job above the mail room position that they called "administration" (the 1 exclusion was a lawyer which was a difficult position to fill). Around 45 of the employees were female. This was in an area where white people make up 85% of the population and black people make up just under 10%. There was no possibility for advancement as a white male in that company. The hiring manager was female hispanic and was quite cold to those of us in the mail room.

I'm fully aware of the impact of blatant racism and I'm offended that this woman assumes we don't experience racism too. However, racism does decrease with exposure so it's not bad for her to make a point to try to show people who don't know what it feels like to be discriminated against is ok. But racism in general is an issue all across the board. It's only more noticeable when a bigot is actually in the power position to act on their racist beliefs (e.g. Sterling's actions are a lot more effective than if one of his players was found to be particularly racist).

When someone says Black people can't be racist they are correct.

Black people can't be racist? Do you even own a dictionary? Racism is prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one?s own race is superior. THAT is racism. If you are from a certain race (doesn't matter which) and you hate another person because he is from another race. Then you are racist.

Black people can't be racist is one of the dumbest statements ever.

don't quote the dictionary, they categories the most popular meanings, not always original or accurate.

like I said Racism is a system and a more accurate word is bigotry, Black people can't be racist for the simple fact that they don't control the system.

I should have clarified, Racism from black in the west isn't so because we can't hold back another race economically socially or lawfully. African nations though that can apply.
Without a system in place to enforce it racism is powerless.

Racism is generally just prejudiced opinions or discrimination of others. Look, I don't "control" the system anymore than you do. Do you really think there's a secret white power control meeting taking place regularly across america where we all get together and make plans to keep people down? Yeah, there are small asshole groups that get together over a hatred of minorities (like the KKK, obviously), but that's certainly not everyone and likely an extreme majority.

Black people can absolutely be in situations that they fully control. But saying that someone can or can't be racist because of the color of their skin is an easy example of racism and bigotry. Racism is toothless in the absence of power to act on it, but it's racism all the same. People can commit acts of violence and discrimination in whatever small areas of control they have. From mugging a person in the street because they are a certain color to withholding services or jobs because of it.

relax, I'm not blaming white people for all our problems, most of us are in the same boat (the 1% and all that), I getting at is how modern society is runned it's been established by an old obsolete and damaging way of thinking, and a lot of those laws, systems etc. still are going on today not because of the cabal of white people but because society allows it to stay the way it is. An American fiend of mine made a joked about how if the emancipation proclamation just burst into flames it would be open season on blacks due to the constitution. Just this month Britain almost had a secret trial that spits in the face of the the magna carta. We almost let it fly.

We might not control the system but we can change, but don't do what we Britain did with the Met and keep those that ran it in place, start at the top and make your way down.

That's what I think anyway.

 

[Thaluikhain]

True. But that goes both ways. Black people can be racist to white people because they were treated poorly by another white person before. Which is where the circle of hate comes from. I'm not above racist thoughts. I wasn't always like this but I have had... unfortunate run ins with foreigners before. Noone is 100% without racist thought. Not white/black/chinese/indian/whatever. But you have to able to rise above it. Which is hard but in the end the prejudice can completely dissapear (for an individual person). Then again: I'm prejudiced against certain types of white people. If I see a 20 year old in sweat pants and a basebal cap... yea...

I disagree that prejudice can be made to totally disappear, but it can (with work) be minimised.

Also, I believe (not sure though), that in your scenario above, the black person won't simply respond with racism against the white person, they'll persecute some other vulnerable group. For example, with homophobia or sexism. This might be a white person, of course, but it won't tend to be simply racism.

Though, I can't say for sure.

 

[iseko]

Nonononono, you're confusing me. I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt that this was not an intentional strawman but just happened because you were holding two discussions at once

I never said blacks couldn't be racist or only whites could be. Quite the contrary. For example what happened in Ruanda and Burundi in the 90s was very much racism. It was about power struggles, minorities and majorities but all involved were black and it the end there were 1.000.000 people dead.

What I am saying is that either you lose the word "race" when defining racism or if you are hell bent on clinging to it use the qualifier "as defined by human society" though I still find it silly to jump through that hoop if the actual meaning of the actual biological expression "race" is 100% not applicable to human beings.

But for your example: While I would never say that the black person using a racist slur against wasn't acting racist the problem here and why other people see racism differently than you is that this kind of racism, white guy hearing a mean word on the street, is nowhere near the kind of racism a lot of black people face. Not the same origins, not the same consequences, not the same connotations. Which is why in the perspective of a lot of people it isn't the same thing. For you and me it still both falls under the term racism.

But I have no problem with the intellectual effort of defining the term broadly while still looking at it in a differentiated way. You on the other hand seem to see it in a very narrow way, hence how we got into this discussion.

Oh okay. Yea, probably got mixed up with that other discussion to much. Well yea I like to keep things simple. I can understand your reasons for broadening the definition. But that just creates more problems in my eyes. Racism is simple and bad period. Don't go nuancing or saying that racism is worse then that racism. Racism is racism and it is bad. Might not be to your liking but that is how I see it.

 

[iseko]

I'm having a hard time with this. So black people can't be racist because they have no power in western society? Well, then I can't be racist either because I have zero power over anyone. Not particularly rich (not poor either). I don't have people working under me. Yeuy for me!

I know that is a ludicrous example. But if a black person walks by me and calls me a dirty cracker, that is not racism? That is just... stupid. This entire discussion is the problem with the modern world in my eyes. Racism is simple: you hate a person from another race (races as defined by human society) because he is from that race? You're a racist. There are no special rules on how to be racist. You don't get a free pass on hating other people in my eyes.

The comment they're making is racist in two ways.

1. Assuming that black people don't/can't hold power (I can think of at least one obvious example but thousands of effective examples where this is false. Millions that I likely don't know of).
2. Assuming that a white person has control over the situation because of the color of their skin.

I'm sorry, but the comment is bigoted regardless of the intention of the poster. You should not only be having a difficult time accepting that statement but should be actively offended by it. In fact, black people should be offended by this claim that they can't have power either. As less than 15% of the US population, there is remarkably high representation of African Americans in society from the position of the president to all areas of government in any branch to manager positions all across the country. The system has encouraged this and white people have championed the cause of equality right along side black people. With such a huge disparity in numbers you cannot gain equality without the majority on your side, which happened and continues to happen to the point where any known instance of overt racism will blacklist the person in today's society.

THANK YOU! Not 100% what I was going for but close enough.

 

[iseko]

True. But that goes both ways. Black people can be racist to white people because they were treated poorly by another white person before. Which is where the circle of hate comes from. I'm not above racist thoughts. I wasn't always like this but I have had... unfortunate run ins with foreigners before. Noone is 100% without racist thought. Not white/black/chinese/indian/whatever. But you have to able to rise above it. Which is hard but in the end the prejudice can completely dissapear (for an individual person). Then again: I'm prejudiced against certain types of white people. If I see a 20 year old in sweat pants and a basebal cap... yea...

I disagree that prejudice can be made to totally disappear, but it can (with work) be minimised.

Also, I believe (not sure though), that in your scenario above, the black person won't simply respond with racism against the white person, they'll persecute some other vulnerable group. For example, with homophobia or sexism. This might be a white person, of course, but it won't tend to be simply racism.

Though, I can't say for sure.

You can't lose your prejudice for a race (not 100%). You can become friends with someone (very good friends/best friends) towards you previously were prejudiced (e.g. black). This I know from experience and it is what I meant. For the scenario. Dunno, could go in all directions. I'm not a psychologist.

 

[V4Viewtiful]

No, racism does exist. As you said, it is a special point under discrimination. It just isn't about actual biological races, as those don't exist. Just like feminism isn't about female domination, yet isn't called "equalinism" (thanks, spell check for telling me that is wrong), the simple, 6-letter word "racism" is a product of a time when people thought "races" were an actual thing but today we know that racism is about so much more than that. That word has evolved, the meaning has evolved and today just saying "it means hating other races" doesn't do the word and the ideology behind it any justice anymore.

My point is for people to stop clinging to "races" when defining racism, to stop perpetuating the myth that there is such a thing. Today's actual racism goes far beyond that, is far from being so simple. As other posters have already said it's also about power structures, majorities and minorities, privileges, history, culture, ethnicity, ideologies etc. Dictionaries tend to just ignore that for brevity but there is a reason why the Wikipedia article on "Racism" is huuuge with a ton of citations instead of just saying "hating somebody else's race".

I'm having a hard time with this. So black people can't be racist because they have no power in western society? Well, then I can't be racist either because I have zero power over anyone. Not particularly rich (not poor either). I don't have people working under me. Yeuy for me!

I know that is a ludicrous example. But if a black person walks by me and calls me a dirty cracker, that is not racism? That is just... stupid. This entire discussion is the problem with the modern world in my eyes. Racism is simple: you hate a person from another race (races as defined by human society) because he is from that race? You're a racist. There are no special rules on how to be racist. You don't get a free pass on hating other people in my eyes.

The comment they're making is racist in two ways.

1. Assuming that black people don't/can't hold power (I can think of at least one obvious example but thousands of effective examples where this is false. Millions that I likely don't know of).
2. Assuming that a white person has control over the situation because of the color of their skin.

I'm sorry, but the comment is bigoted regardless of the intention of the poster. You should not only be having a difficult time accepting that statement but should be actively offended by it. In fact, black people should be offended by this claim that they can't have power either. As less than 15% of the US population, there is remarkably high representation of African Americans in society from the position of the president to all areas of government in any branch to manager positions all across the country. The system has encouraged this and white people have championed the cause of equality right along side black people. With such a huge disparity in numbers you cannot gain equality without the majority on your side, which happened and continues to happen to the point where any known instance of overt racism will blacklist the person in today's society.

don't confuse the issue, I didn't say we don't have power Marcus Garvey, MLK and Malcolm X prove we do, I'm saying the western world we live in is catered to whites regards if the common white dude benefits, I'm pointing out that the way we live is flawed and by our own ignorance or not doing enough we allow it to work. In many cases it's our own fault in others it's higher ups intentionally stifling progress.

 

[RoonMian]

Nonononono, you're confusing me. I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt that this was not an intentional strawman but just happened because you were holding two discussions at once

I never said blacks couldn't be racist or only whites could be. Quite the contrary. For example what happened in Ruanda and Burundi in the 90s was very much racism. It was about power struggles, minorities and majorities but all involved were black and it the end there were 1.000.000 people dead.

What I am saying is that either you lose the word "race" when defining racism or if you are hell bent on clinging to it use the qualifier "as defined by human society" though I still find it silly to jump through that hoop if the actual meaning of the actual biological expression "race" is 100% not applicable to human beings.

But for your example: While I would never say that the black person using a racist slur against wasn't acting racist the problem here and why other people see racism differently than you is that this kind of racism, white guy hearing a mean word on the street, is nowhere near the kind of racism a lot of black people face. Not the same origins, not the same consequences, not the same connotations. Which is why in the perspective of a lot of people it isn't the same thing. For you and me it still both falls under the term racism.

But I have no problem with the intellectual effort of defining the term broadly while still looking at it in a differentiated way. You on the other hand seem to see it in a very narrow way, hence how we got into this discussion.

Oh okay. Yea, probably got mixed up with that other discussion to much. Well yea I like to keep things simple. I can understand your reasons for broadening the definition. But that just creates more problems in my eyes. Racism is simple and bad period. Don't go nuancing or saying that racism is worse then that racism. Racism is racism and it is bad. Might not be to your liking but that is how I see it.

Racism is always bad, yes. But it is never simple. Saying it was is underestimating the problem, it is hubris. And especially if one is white, like I am, and underestimating racism comes naturally as racism has never affected me in any meaningful way, I've never been denied a job because of a Turkish name (which happens in my country), I've never been denied entry to a nightclub or whatever because of the colour of my skin (which happens in my country) and so many other examples I could name that don't apply to me, because I am privileged in that way, one cannot just downplay or oversimplify the issue, cannot say "bah, everyone is racist, what are ya gonna do?" and leave it at that, just because black people can say mean words, too. It is all racism but it is not all the same.

I have a language, I have a heart, I have to declare myself. Stand up against this. Speak out against this.

 

[iseko]

Racism is always bad, yes. But it is never simple. Saying it was is underestimating the problem, it is hubris. And especially if one is white, like I am, and underestimating racism comes naturally as racism has never affected me in any meaningful way, I've never been denied a job because of a Turkish name (which happens in my country), I've never been denied entry to a nightclub or whatever because of the colour of my skin (which happens in my country) and so many other examples I could name that don't apply to me, because I am privileged in that way, one cannot just downplay or oversimplify the issue, cannot say "bah, everyone is racist, what are ya gonna do?" and leave it at that, just because black people can say mean words, too. It is all racism but it is not all the same.

I have a language, I have a heart, I have to declare myself. Stand up against this. Speak out against this.

Yes. And I'm not arguing that. But racism is racism. HOWEVER. There is more racism towards black people, jews, etc... And I acknowledge this as a fact. This is what should be changed. If a person is declined a job because of his origin then this is pure racism and should be punished (severely). Making people aware that this still happens on a daily basis is very important. And I do mean VERY important. But you are not going to change this by changing the definition of racism. The definition is fine the way it is. Racism is racism and racism is bad. If you complicate or change the definition of racism then you are not changing anything useful. You are better defining the problem, true(in your case). Not changing shit though.

Changing the definition so black people can't be racist anymore: well that is just going to create more racism. A person should not be punished more severely because he is a white racist (I know that this is not what you are arguing for). Leave the definition as is and actually start punishing people for their bigot ways. And do this both ways.