A Strong Second Act Can't Save Sword Art Online II
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God I want a show with an MMO setting that's actually good. Maybe I'll try hack, all the others just really aren't my thing. Log Horizon bored me, No Game No Life has too many incest undertones, and SAO is by far the WORST WORST!
The setting has so much promise
The setting has so much promise
- Apr 1, 2009
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As I said before, if you want an anime that does the trapped in an mmo thing but does it right. Even with characters who dress like mmo characters and actual mmo boss mechanics then check out LogHorizon. It does it right and awesomely, the only thing that sao has on it is a higher animation budget.Twinmill5000 said:
I can understand why people like this show but having read the light novels, to me this whole thing feels like a self-insert fantasy. Yes, having an anti-social protagonist can work, yes, having female characters revolve around the main character is not an inherently bad thing but the fact that everything seems to be in service of Kirito with no real development for the main harem or even Kirito means that I just wince.Elfgore said:
I recently did a user review of "When Supernatural Battles become Commonplace" and while I am willing to concede that Ando is a self-insert, he is still far more human and likable and the others around him have varying degrees of personal development. Combine that with the much more light-hearted and consistent tone with even the dramatic moments being executed well and SAO just feels off.
First of all, yes, it is a self-insert fantasy. I've yet to come across a piece of fiction that isn't, because if you're writing something, you are going to insert a bit of "yourself" into it, just try it. But it's true that some insertions are done more badly than others, forgive the lame double entendre, and this one doesn't seem to be one of the best ones..Izanagi009 said:
As for the harem, that's just the thing. It's not a harem. The lives of other girls don't revolve around Kirito, they're not each other's romantic rivals, they don't compete for his affections (there were some cringeworthy moments, but luckily they got over it quickly enough). They just happen to hang out, they're involved in his life to some degree.
Sinon is still mostly playing GGO, and she's a top-ranked player there...but that's another story. There could easily be a spin-off series that would feature her in the main role. But this series isn't about her.
By the way, I'm not saying SAO is some sort of an artistic masterpiece. But I do like how the female supporting cast in it doesn't behave like a typical harem. Oh and how both Kirito and Asuna seem to be independent characters who make their own decisions.
"So my girlfriend going to be spending a lot of time time with that Yuuki girl? Sure, I'm cool with that. I'll help her out with it, too." Isn't that just, I don't know refreshing to see, instead of the typical "ZOMFG I AM NOW SO JEALOUS THAT I AM GOING TO CREATE AN ENTIRE STORY ARC WITH MY SHEER JEALOUSY" shtick that usually happens?
Let's see, I will give an example of a character that the maker himself stated he used a bit of self-insert to make and then I will talk about how it works: Emiya Kiritsugu.Mumbly said:
Yes, the Fate/Zero train again. While he is extremely capable of handling mages and servants, he is still internally conflicted with severe consequences for his actions and his morals are presented in ambiguous to negative light. They try to do that with Kirito but it ends up being flat since the world doesn't have any substantial consequences for him and he is always presented as in the right.
Yes, this isn't a normal harem, but it's still a harem and so many scenes between Kiritio and the girls are for shipping wars and wank material with SAOII having so many stupid scenes I can't count. The girls besides Asuna and Shino don't really develop and the two I mentioned get demoted to make Kirito awesome.
Yes, this is not a masterpiece but I refuse to accept it as passable by any standard. This show is so problematic that I want to punch it.
I don't recall specifically stating such a thing but if I had stated implicitly, I will accept the blameMumbly said:
I thought I was simply stating an opinion.
Wow, excellent rebuttal. I love it when people just turn their noses up and disagree with absolutely no refutation or explanation following it...wait no I don't love that. If my arguments truly don't hold up then surely there's nothing to fear for you, now is there?LordTerminal said:
As far as I can tell, all anyone does is crap on Naruto, even the fans do it (concerning the final chapter especially).
But that just isn't true. SAO Progressive basically opens up with Asuna getting rescued several times by Kirito, and more or less just moping around and being miserable unless Kirito shows up to show her the way to happiness.Mumbly said:
And then you have lapses in time in which Asuna apparently did awesome things while by herself, but this is never seen nor felt by the audience. Whenever she's around Kirito she's basically being shown up at nearly every opportunity, except for token scenes of beating dregs or mooks.
And finally...when you have someone who's sole ambition is "being with you" you don't have an independent character, period.
If one thing is infinite, its the hate some people have for SAO, and the excuses they'll make up for it.
Not saying its perfect by any means. Its enjoyable though, and people LOVE to over-exaggerate how bad it is. One thing I am glad to see is some AoT/SNK hate here as well, as whilst it also wasn't utterly terrible, fanboys blew that out of the water with the "Oh my god people can die its amazing" shit.
A number of the problems in the anime come from poor animisation of the light novels.
Arc 1 I actually have to give credit for. Collecting the side stories from other volumes, then condensing them into one arc so that Aincrad all occurred at once was a great move for pacing, and served to keep the story self contained, and long enough to fill a half season. In doing so, they also ended up doing something many people complain about: "Haremising" the anime. Lisbeth, Silica, the first day in Aincrad, and I'm pretty sure the Black Cats of the Full Moon were all side stories. The actual light novel started that day when Asuna berated Kirito for not joining in the raid and instead relaxing in the sun if memory serves, though its been that long since I've read the first one, and the anime combined it so well, I'm not fully sure [Though it would take the whole 2 seconds to check]. More sides stories were thrown in after that, and overall the main "Aincrad" arc was fairly short, with a lot of side stories from the side. That's probably part of the reason why people don't seem to have a lot of development in some cases; They're not actually a main part of the core story. The anime tries to make them that, and I actually have to give some credit there.
Arc 2 was just fatally flawed from the start. The weakest of the arcs with a pretty weak motivation piece [Sorry Mario, but your princess is in another castle] as source material, though it still wasn't terrible, however the anime then went to hell with that, cutting out half the season as they didn't have enough time, and making the anime arc a series of "Big build up, 2 episodes building up.... 5 minute fight then start next buildup". Never any payoff for anything, skipping a reasonable amount of middle content, before rushing to a finish it kind of dragged out as they needed to make the villain villainous, as they'd skipped the chances to do so mid season in an attempt to rush to the end [There wasn't a lot of that in the light novels, but it was there, and less focus was on the end scene I felt as a "Look, the hero is bad". In fact, most of the light novel's focus on that seemed to be around the pain side of things, and Excalibur, plus Heathcliffe logging in to save Kirito]. Incest side story didn't help either. Poorly made into anime, weakest of the arcs anyway.
Arc 3, Gun Gale, was one of the stronger in the light novel IMO. It was reasonably exciting, interesting, and as you were reading it, it didn't have the horrible pacing issues of the anime. It seems something that maybe wouldn't have inherently translated over to the anime well, as there was less fighting - which in the anime is the exciting part - however I think too many extra subtones of Sinon liking Kirito were thrown in, which if they were there in the LN, were a lot less noticable. The whole scene at the end that people are offended over I didn't really find offensive, but that's largely because I understood the scene from the LN perspective. Was it perfect? No, but more emphasis seemed to be on Sinon saving Kirito than the other way around, and there was no frothing at the mouth. Hell, first time I read it I just took at as he was chasing her to inject her still, rather than any other intentions [Excuse the unintended double entendre there].
Anime Arc 4, Caliber, was simply a side story, and that's probably why it feels like "Kirito and Friends happy adventure in Alfhiem". Well, yeah, that's what it was, and its not its own arc. The anime might have tried to sell it like that, but it was more filler, like you get with most shows TBH. It also actually had more foreshadowing in the LNs, with the 30 second "Back when saving Asuna my sister and I saved Tonkii and then found Excalibur" thing at the intro, actually being a main part of the Arc 2 story, forcing Kirito to choose between saving Tonkii, at the risk of dying and not being able to get to Asuna in time [Which was more the choice that the light novel pointed out for all his encounters], or just leaving and saving Asuna.
Actual Arc 4, Mothers Rosario, I haven't finished yet. Read the anime, its nice, anime is skipping some stuff from memory, but I find it was just useless fluff in the first place, so I'm not too worried about it. I'd give a proper breakdown, but as said, haven't finished the anime yet.
The next arc, IMO, is the one most suited to anime. Why? Its the most drawn out, already having 5 LNs to it. Aka: You can have a continual, evolving plot and main story, rather than your set of isolated stories that the other arcs are. Personally, the next arc isn't anything special. Its a little interesting, but mostly predictable and generic. I get the feeling though that people here would say its great, because
, as well as Asuna getting her own arc which is happening parallel to Kirito's [Which is actually nice], and Kirito isn't the only one with a fair bit of focus on him. Sadly it also comes with a "Why do people see me as the Black Swordsman, I don't want to be the Black Swordsman, I just want to be Kirito" shoehorned in plot arc, and is a very "By the numbers" sort of plot, but it still has some interesting points, and is probably the best written of the arcs so far. Is another semi-rape there, though an abuse of power this time that is tied in with part of the overall plot as to why the way that world works is flawed {Not a game, and actual world}, and it is swiftly dealt with, and not by Kirito. Its a bit tired by now, but in this case I do see why they needed something so extreme. Less to make the audience hate the antagonists, as we've been shown plenty of reasons to hate them already, more because something extreme was needed to have the situation resolved in the way it was, which was needed to push forward the plot.
Is the show amazing and brilliant? No. Not even the Light Novels really are. Having read the Light Novels, I see a lot of the flak the series gets being from poor animisation, however I still think its a bit overblown by some people. Its not the second coming of Hitler, it certainly isn't the worst anime out there, and it is enjoyable - especially I find for the tone it manages to set in the first season, which only No Game No Life has come close to, but even then its not the same. Much as people throw around Dot Hack and Log Horizon as similar animes, I'd disagree, and I can't actually think of an anime similar to SAO simply from that tone and feel perspective, and I know many who agree.
On that note, how the hell do people like Log Horizon? Is this one of those "It gets better after 50 episodes" ordeals? 'cause I watched the first few then threw it out as trash. Characters are bland, stereotypical, and utterly unlikable. Plot goes nowhere. Fight scenes look like I'm watching a Lets Play of WoW, and it overall gets a feeling of "Why does this exist?" from me. It seems pointless and just boring. I've seen isolated captions that look funny from latter seasons, but I know better than to watch something based on what is basically advertising material ["Here, look at the 20 seconds of good footage from our whole {Series, Movie, Game, ect.}]. So, can someone tell me, does it actually get interesting and better at any point, or do people really have crap taste in anime? [Yes, partially joking there]
Not saying its perfect by any means. Its enjoyable though, and people LOVE to over-exaggerate how bad it is. One thing I am glad to see is some AoT/SNK hate here as well, as whilst it also wasn't utterly terrible, fanboys blew that out of the water with the "Oh my god people can die its amazing" shit.
A number of the problems in the anime come from poor animisation of the light novels.
Arc 1 I actually have to give credit for. Collecting the side stories from other volumes, then condensing them into one arc so that Aincrad all occurred at once was a great move for pacing, and served to keep the story self contained, and long enough to fill a half season. In doing so, they also ended up doing something many people complain about: "Haremising" the anime. Lisbeth, Silica, the first day in Aincrad, and I'm pretty sure the Black Cats of the Full Moon were all side stories. The actual light novel started that day when Asuna berated Kirito for not joining in the raid and instead relaxing in the sun if memory serves, though its been that long since I've read the first one, and the anime combined it so well, I'm not fully sure [Though it would take the whole 2 seconds to check]. More sides stories were thrown in after that, and overall the main "Aincrad" arc was fairly short, with a lot of side stories from the side. That's probably part of the reason why people don't seem to have a lot of development in some cases; They're not actually a main part of the core story. The anime tries to make them that, and I actually have to give some credit there.
Arc 2 was just fatally flawed from the start. The weakest of the arcs with a pretty weak motivation piece [Sorry Mario, but your princess is in another castle] as source material, though it still wasn't terrible, however the anime then went to hell with that, cutting out half the season as they didn't have enough time, and making the anime arc a series of "Big build up, 2 episodes building up.... 5 minute fight then start next buildup". Never any payoff for anything, skipping a reasonable amount of middle content, before rushing to a finish it kind of dragged out as they needed to make the villain villainous, as they'd skipped the chances to do so mid season in an attempt to rush to the end [There wasn't a lot of that in the light novels, but it was there, and less focus was on the end scene I felt as a "Look, the hero is bad". In fact, most of the light novel's focus on that seemed to be around the pain side of things, and Excalibur, plus Heathcliffe logging in to save Kirito]. Incest side story didn't help either. Poorly made into anime, weakest of the arcs anyway.
Arc 3, Gun Gale, was one of the stronger in the light novel IMO. It was reasonably exciting, interesting, and as you were reading it, it didn't have the horrible pacing issues of the anime. It seems something that maybe wouldn't have inherently translated over to the anime well, as there was less fighting - which in the anime is the exciting part - however I think too many extra subtones of Sinon liking Kirito were thrown in, which if they were there in the LN, were a lot less noticable. The whole scene at the end that people are offended over I didn't really find offensive, but that's largely because I understood the scene from the LN perspective. Was it perfect? No, but more emphasis seemed to be on Sinon saving Kirito than the other way around, and there was no frothing at the mouth. Hell, first time I read it I just took at as he was chasing her to inject her still, rather than any other intentions [Excuse the unintended double entendre there].
Anime Arc 4, Caliber, was simply a side story, and that's probably why it feels like "Kirito and Friends happy adventure in Alfhiem". Well, yeah, that's what it was, and its not its own arc. The anime might have tried to sell it like that, but it was more filler, like you get with most shows TBH. It also actually had more foreshadowing in the LNs, with the 30 second "Back when saving Asuna my sister and I saved Tonkii and then found Excalibur" thing at the intro, actually being a main part of the Arc 2 story, forcing Kirito to choose between saving Tonkii, at the risk of dying and not being able to get to Asuna in time [Which was more the choice that the light novel pointed out for all his encounters], or just leaving and saving Asuna.
Actual Arc 4, Mothers Rosario, I haven't finished yet. Read the anime, its nice, anime is skipping some stuff from memory, but I find it was just useless fluff in the first place, so I'm not too worried about it. I'd give a proper breakdown, but as said, haven't finished the anime yet.
The next arc, IMO, is the one most suited to anime. Why? Its the most drawn out, already having 5 LNs to it. Aka: You can have a continual, evolving plot and main story, rather than your set of isolated stories that the other arcs are. Personally, the next arc isn't anything special. Its a little interesting, but mostly predictable and generic. I get the feeling though that people here would say its great, because
"OMG, Kirito kind of died!". "Oh my god, now he's actually dead". "Next book and he's still dead =O"
Is the show amazing and brilliant? No. Not even the Light Novels really are. Having read the Light Novels, I see a lot of the flak the series gets being from poor animisation, however I still think its a bit overblown by some people. Its not the second coming of Hitler, it certainly isn't the worst anime out there, and it is enjoyable - especially I find for the tone it manages to set in the first season, which only No Game No Life has come close to, but even then its not the same. Much as people throw around Dot Hack and Log Horizon as similar animes, I'd disagree, and I can't actually think of an anime similar to SAO simply from that tone and feel perspective, and I know many who agree.
On that note, how the hell do people like Log Horizon? Is this one of those "It gets better after 50 episodes" ordeals? 'cause I watched the first few then threw it out as trash. Characters are bland, stereotypical, and utterly unlikable. Plot goes nowhere. Fight scenes look like I'm watching a Lets Play of WoW, and it overall gets a feeling of "Why does this exist?" from me. It seems pointless and just boring. I've seen isolated captions that look funny from latter seasons, but I know better than to watch something based on what is basically advertising material ["Here, look at the 20 seconds of good footage from our whole {Series, Movie, Game, ect.}]. So, can someone tell me, does it actually get interesting and better at any point, or do people really have crap taste in anime? [Yes, partially joking there]
I can't believe I actually read your entire wall of text only to realize you're just summarizing each of the arcs...thanks for that.
Also, I'm noticing a trend in this thread, and it's always the accusation that people hate the show just to hate on it, yet there aren't any refutations made regarding the criticisms made against it, particularly in the lack of urgency, compelling stakes, depth or variety in characters (meaning no dynamic or interesting interactions between them), and significant consequences in general (literally every arc ends exactly the same way, the day is saved, Kirito and Asuna are perfect couperu, sometimes new waifu added to harem, etc).
There's also the trend of introducing a new character in a new arc...who is eventually reduced to an extra as Kirito takes over and does the majority of legwork in resolving the plot. Finally, I don't think the word tone means what you think it means, because the only reoccurring themes I can find in SAO is the obnoxious amount of teenage cleavage and ass shoved into face of the audience.
And then you also have this viciously misogynistic narrative where every female character exists either to be some variation of boobs/legs/ass fodder for the audience, fall in love with Kirito, get rescued by Kirito, or be a tough independent person that gradually becomes more helpless and dependent and eventually "righted" by the perfect and resolute Kirito (cough Asuna and Sinon cough).
And um..."Characters are bland, stereotypical, and utterly unlikable" yet you're defending Sword Art Online...
Also, I'm noticing a trend in this thread, and it's always the accusation that people hate the show just to hate on it, yet there aren't any refutations made regarding the criticisms made against it, particularly in the lack of urgency, compelling stakes, depth or variety in characters (meaning no dynamic or interesting interactions between them), and significant consequences in general (literally every arc ends exactly the same way, the day is saved, Kirito and Asuna are perfect couperu, sometimes new waifu added to harem, etc).
There's also the trend of introducing a new character in a new arc...who is eventually reduced to an extra as Kirito takes over and does the majority of legwork in resolving the plot. Finally, I don't think the word tone means what you think it means, because the only reoccurring themes I can find in SAO is the obnoxious amount of teenage cleavage and ass shoved into face of the audience.
And then you also have this viciously misogynistic narrative where every female character exists either to be some variation of boobs/legs/ass fodder for the audience, fall in love with Kirito, get rescued by Kirito, or be a tough independent person that gradually becomes more helpless and dependent and eventually "righted" by the perfect and resolute Kirito (cough Asuna and Sinon cough).
And um..."Characters are bland, stereotypical, and utterly unlikable" yet you're defending Sword Art Online...
Well, yes, I summarised and compared each arc between the LN and the anime. A lot of the issues come from animisation, some from differences in taste.lucky_sharm said:
As for the "Hate on it just to hate on it", its hard to think anything else when things like Log Horizon are lauded, and whilst the same problems it has are horribly criticised and used as evidence of "Sword Art is the worst thing ever".
Are there any refutations made against the claims that it has flaws? No, because it does have flaws, and people realise that. However the pure vitriol that is directed towards the show is over the top.
As for Kirito never suffering consequences... Because of Aincrad, we had the PTSD arc in Gun Gale. Yes it got resolved. Well, yeah, no shit. That's kind of the point of a plot arc. Additionally, because of the Gun Gale arc, the spoilers in my above post happened, and you can't count that as not consequences
He is literally dead. They'll probably bring him back because they need to at some point, but he has been killed. His brain has been electrocuted and his "Soul" has been dispersed
Lack of Urgency and compelling stakes is personal taste. I find SAO better than Log Horizon in that regard, as did many of my friends who watched it. Being able to respawn destroys any sense of stakes or urgency. Nothing is lost. So, anyone who lauds that, and complains about SAO not having stakes and urgency is being hypocritical IMO. That said, I haven't watched much, 'cause it was just bad, and the only defence I've heard for it so far is "Its not SAO".
Side companions feel like side companions because, well, they are. As said. They're not part of the main story. Anime mixes them in with it because it works well, however they aren't the focus of the story. Its also hard to show development of most of these characters when they're not around most of the time. Generally each SAO arc has its own cast, and they are developed a little inside those arcs. This complaint, IMO, comes down to "There isn't a constant cast" more than anything.
Tits and Ass is an anime problem, and SAO ain't even close to the worst. God, you must have an aneurysm watching something like either of the Highschool shows [DxD, of the Dead]. THAT is fan service.
Recurring themes wise, as another poster said, its less of a heavy, moral sort of thing [Which get kind of tired after a while], and more of a commentary on the experience of playing an MMO - which is what the author aims it to be. I relate to it on many levels, and it hits on issues that I have experienced in Real Life. Issues of online friends not being understood as important as real friends, even though they are. Family belittling time spent online as wasted, whilst it can be as rich and important as time spent in person. Even beyond that, it feels more natural than a lot of other anime. Kirito is, naturally, a Mary Sue for the viewer/reader to insert themselves into the story, and whilst many of the girls, especially in the anime, are a bit too interested in Kirito, however they feel less like cliches than, say, Log Horizon's characters. Log Horizon you've got your cliched quiet, probably Tsundere though I haven't watched enough to know, girl who just so happens to be awesome. You've got your blatant obvious pervert character. You've got your brains main character who just so happens to be amazing, and used to be part of some legendary group. All that's missing is your openly sexy mother character and you're set. God knows I wouldn't be surprised if one of them gets introduced later. Whilst SAOs might not get a ton of development, I find at least they seem less cliched and more like people. Not to say they are utterly without cliche, especially his sister who is a walking one, but I find it hard to categorise them into such a specific cliched role compared to many anime out there.
The misogynistic narrative is partially the fault of the anime, which vastly overplays that. I'm also not sure what you want out of a female character in SAO ATM. Another Mary Sue like Kirito? 'cause ATM yes you've got the helpless Damsel in Destress overplayed Stereotype in their meeting plots, however when you get a strong independent female, who happens to have issues, you dismiss it as they just need saving by Kirito [Who, conveniently enough, happens to have the same issues and is simultaneously saved by them]. Well.
Look, SAO isn't perfect. No-one said it was. Yes, it has its flaws, as does everything else out there. I ain't even putting it as a 'Good' anime. Its average, and I'd put it probably 3 stars instead of 2.5, but near the same as the review. The sheer hatred that is shot at it by many, however, is over the top. Its like the author came in and murdered people's kittens in the night, and I'm pretty sure he didn't do that.
'You know, there's nothing wrong with masturbating your ideas in the form of literature. I don't hate the writer who wrote it. He's probably pretty cool. I don't hate the studio that animated it, at least not for animating it. I don't hate the fans that love it. As much as I hate SAO, I love it too. It provoked thought, though the just mentioned thought wasn't what the author seemed to intend. SAO excelled in one thing, and that was the characters, specifically, writing characters that you couldn't help but care about. In my recent work, I'd be a tremendous liar if I didn't admit that Zekken wasn't a heavy influence for one of my main characters. In fact, the characters in SAO do indeed have their own arcs, and there is character development, something that can't be said for most series' out there.
Why I hate SAO can't be pinned on the idea that the series is spunk, even though that's a large part of why. It's anger and frustration at the fact that the characters, every single one of them, had so much potential to tell a fantastic story that could have been a masterpiece. As the series progressed, it was letdown after letdown, seeing characters I genuinely cared about treated like garbage over a character who the writer clearly favored. At the end of it, I chose to partake in his fiction, and I chose to invest myself into it, but I'd hardly consider that a fault. The characters, and at first, the story, seemed worth significant emotional investment. They are, if you're capable of ignoring what the writer does with them, and just look at them as their own entity.
I will express my hatred for the series, because that's exactly what it is. It's not a series of minor complaints. It's not disappointment. It's not an apathetic feeling of nihilism. It's pure, passionate, probably unrivaled, seething, writhing hatred.
I don't care if you love the series. I get that. Part of me still does. I also understand the need to defend what you love, but SAO hit a note with me that made me stand up and flip a few tables. It made me a better writer.
I can understand the hatred of SAO fans, however. After the series aired, I had to quit trying to level my warrior in Tera, named Kiru, and work on my other one. I'm not sure if I can do anything with that dual wielding badass anymore. People are so fed up, in MMOs, that if you have any name similar to Kirito, or play a dark #edge character, people will ragequit dungeons because they just assume you're not the 4th best warrior on the server. At least, people used to think like that. Then I transferred to this gay RP server to play with some friends so it's sort of whatevs now. It's just, like, so much for liking dual wielding and the color black now, right? That sort of stuff breeds hatred too.
Why I hate SAO can't be pinned on the idea that the series is spunk, even though that's a large part of why. It's anger and frustration at the fact that the characters, every single one of them, had so much potential to tell a fantastic story that could have been a masterpiece. As the series progressed, it was letdown after letdown, seeing characters I genuinely cared about treated like garbage over a character who the writer clearly favored. At the end of it, I chose to partake in his fiction, and I chose to invest myself into it, but I'd hardly consider that a fault. The characters, and at first, the story, seemed worth significant emotional investment. They are, if you're capable of ignoring what the writer does with them, and just look at them as their own entity.
I will express my hatred for the series, because that's exactly what it is. It's not a series of minor complaints. It's not disappointment. It's not an apathetic feeling of nihilism. It's pure, passionate, probably unrivaled, seething, writhing hatred.
I don't care if you love the series. I get that. Part of me still does. I also understand the need to defend what you love, but SAO hit a note with me that made me stand up and flip a few tables. It made me a better writer.
I can understand the hatred of SAO fans, however. After the series aired, I had to quit trying to level my warrior in Tera, named Kiru, and work on my other one. I'm not sure if I can do anything with that dual wielding badass anymore. People are so fed up, in MMOs, that if you have any name similar to Kirito, or play a dark #edge character, people will ragequit dungeons because they just assume you're not the 4th best warrior on the server. At least, people used to think like that. Then I transferred to this gay RP server to play with some friends so it's sort of whatevs now. It's just, like, so much for liking dual wielding and the color black now, right? That sort of stuff breeds hatred too.
I don't think "consequences" mean what you think it means. Bad things happen yes, but only in self-contained arcs where they are barely even referenced at all after the fact. Part of the reason why Kirito is seen as a Gary Stu is because literally everything turns either for the better or a status quo is maintained in which Kirito can further participate in VR MMO adventures at his leisure. His relationships and life in general go unchallenged no matter what bafflingly one-dimensional menace tries to threaten him. For instance, you have PTSD, and it kicks in during that one duel with "Death Gun" (still one of the dumbest names ever), Kirito freaks out a little bit and...still wins. Now, on its own that isn't a huge problem but I'll get into that later.
You're bashing Log Horizon for lacking stakes...but SAO quits the perma-death premise after its first 13 episodes and tries to engage you in politics and lore that only a nerd that takes games 1000 times too seriously would feel invested in. Furthermore, you can have compelling stakes and tension that doesn't involve mortal danger, but you need actual characters with personal motivations, goals, and distinct personalities for t hat to happen, and SAO couldn't be further away from attaining that level of writing.
The complaint isn't that there's no constant cast, but that there isn't a cast to begin with. It's the Kirito show for the most part. Don't get me wrong, a narrative that focuses primarily on one character isn't inherently bad, but the problem is that Kirito doesn't have a personality. Like seriously, this is basic stuff. What are his assorted mannerisms, dominant traits, quirks, flaws, etc? Literally nothing else defines him beyond that fact that he wears all black and solves everyone's problems.
The difference between SAO and Highschool DXD is that one show pretends to have a dire and dramatic narrative and the other is plain in-your-face schlocky fun. See, this is where the word "tone" can be applied. SAO on the other hand mixes death and tragedy with girls getting upskirted and shoving their asses in front of the camera, so maybe now you can understand why some people hold vitriol towards it.
But as for the girls apparently not being cliches...they are SO cliched it hurts to even look at them despite their generically perfect anime-brand moe-blob cuteness. You have the childhood friend/tsundere love interest, little sister/cousin that wants to fuck her bro, the femme fatale, the bratty go-getter loli type, another variant of tsundere but with pink hair, slightly chilly girl but gets turned into a generic harem member, and then...yet another go-getter loli type but with purple hair. You can find any number of these character types in whatever harem show you find.
Regarding the "strong independent" character types I mentioned earlier, the problem with them is that not a single female character in this story has actually been able to solve their own problems, resolve any major plots, or at the very least save their own skins in dire scenarios. It doesn't help that they're barely characters at all on top of being incompetent physically and mentally.
Also don't forget how the "strong women" in SAO are only really "strong" before they meet Kirito. Asuna goes from someone we're constantly told is one of the strongest players in the game, responsible for making considerable progress in saving everyone's lives, to Kirito's domesticated housewife whose only ambition in life is "to be with [Kirito]." Her only bit of action in the 2nd half of the first season was an attempted escape that culminated in her being sexually abused, and she became a sexual abuse target AGAIN just a few episodes later. In GGO, she's literally nothing but a cheerleader who holds her husbando's hand despite being ostensibly just as capable as Kirito of investigating Desu Gun.
Sinon was shown to be strong and capable and awesome before she met Kirito, but from the moment Kirito enters the picture she's constantly losing her cool around him, always flustered, and needs him to come to the rescue. Sure, that's because the "plot" necessitated his rescuing her, but it's a pattern SAO consistently repeats. You build up these extremely capable women and have them slowly, over the course of a few weeks, become completely dependent on Kirito for survival and emotional support.
It's a male-centric power fantasy story, so it's not exactly surprising. But that's how the series works.
You're bashing Log Horizon for lacking stakes...but SAO quits the perma-death premise after its first 13 episodes and tries to engage you in politics and lore that only a nerd that takes games 1000 times too seriously would feel invested in. Furthermore, you can have compelling stakes and tension that doesn't involve mortal danger, but you need actual characters with personal motivations, goals, and distinct personalities for t hat to happen, and SAO couldn't be further away from attaining that level of writing.
The complaint isn't that there's no constant cast, but that there isn't a cast to begin with. It's the Kirito show for the most part. Don't get me wrong, a narrative that focuses primarily on one character isn't inherently bad, but the problem is that Kirito doesn't have a personality. Like seriously, this is basic stuff. What are his assorted mannerisms, dominant traits, quirks, flaws, etc? Literally nothing else defines him beyond that fact that he wears all black and solves everyone's problems.
The difference between SAO and Highschool DXD is that one show pretends to have a dire and dramatic narrative and the other is plain in-your-face schlocky fun. See, this is where the word "tone" can be applied. SAO on the other hand mixes death and tragedy with girls getting upskirted and shoving their asses in front of the camera, so maybe now you can understand why some people hold vitriol towards it.
But as for the girls apparently not being cliches...they are SO cliched it hurts to even look at them despite their generically perfect anime-brand moe-blob cuteness. You have the childhood friend/tsundere love interest, little sister/cousin that wants to fuck her bro, the femme fatale, the bratty go-getter loli type, another variant of tsundere but with pink hair, slightly chilly girl but gets turned into a generic harem member, and then...yet another go-getter loli type but with purple hair. You can find any number of these character types in whatever harem show you find.
Regarding the "strong independent" character types I mentioned earlier, the problem with them is that not a single female character in this story has actually been able to solve their own problems, resolve any major plots, or at the very least save their own skins in dire scenarios. It doesn't help that they're barely characters at all on top of being incompetent physically and mentally.
Also don't forget how the "strong women" in SAO are only really "strong" before they meet Kirito. Asuna goes from someone we're constantly told is one of the strongest players in the game, responsible for making considerable progress in saving everyone's lives, to Kirito's domesticated housewife whose only ambition in life is "to be with [Kirito]." Her only bit of action in the 2nd half of the first season was an attempted escape that culminated in her being sexually abused, and she became a sexual abuse target AGAIN just a few episodes later. In GGO, she's literally nothing but a cheerleader who holds her husbando's hand despite being ostensibly just as capable as Kirito of investigating Desu Gun.
Sinon was shown to be strong and capable and awesome before she met Kirito, but from the moment Kirito enters the picture she's constantly losing her cool around him, always flustered, and needs him to come to the rescue. Sure, that's because the "plot" necessitated his rescuing her, but it's a pattern SAO consistently repeats. You build up these extremely capable women and have them slowly, over the course of a few weeks, become completely dependent on Kirito for survival and emotional support.
It's a male-centric power fantasy story, so it's not exactly surprising. But that's how the series works.
Well, after so may seasons of anime, I'm still waiting for a big studio to drop the silly fan service and lame story telling. I guess this is why while I've been into anime for years, I'm gradually going off much of it. We all know the trope character types well.
Highschool of the Dead, IMO, had the potential to be an amazing series, up there with Hellsing etc. Only thing that torpedoed it was the vastly unnecessary fan service. Its almost as though they learned nothing from other zombie tales, that the truly great tale is one of basic survival (food, water, safe shelter), that there would be no time to t&a fan service. Such a shame because the animation was kinda cool.
Its such a shame that most of these studios can't see that drowning their anime in too much moe/fan service crap and less focus on story is hurting them. That's where Kill La gets a pass, Fun action, comedy and blatant stupid fan service all iced on a cliched but fun tale.
SAO, enjoy it if that's your thing, but I got other stuff like Parasyte to watch, that actually tells a good well written story with minimum bs and pandering moe crud.
Highschool of the Dead, IMO, had the potential to be an amazing series, up there with Hellsing etc. Only thing that torpedoed it was the vastly unnecessary fan service. Its almost as though they learned nothing from other zombie tales, that the truly great tale is one of basic survival (food, water, safe shelter), that there would be no time to t&a fan service. Such a shame because the animation was kinda cool.
Its such a shame that most of these studios can't see that drowning their anime in too much moe/fan service crap and less focus on story is hurting them. That's where Kill La gets a pass, Fun action, comedy and blatant stupid fan service all iced on a cliched but fun tale.
SAO, enjoy it if that's your thing, but I got other stuff like Parasyte to watch, that actually tells a good well written story with minimum bs and pandering moe crud.
As much as I disagree with your sentiment that fan service is really the thing that killed SAO, I'm not really going to argue that. I do strongly disagree, however, with the implications that your personal taste in entertainment other than SAO needed to be brought up in this discussion, let alone in a provocative manner. That's inflammatory, and doesn't prove any of your points.
ROFL, with Shoji Sato on Illustrations (AKA Inazuma famous for making 18+ Adult Doujins), and Daisuke Sato as the writer (Who's only real Success is HotD), you don't expect anything grand from their backgrounds as creators.Kittyhawk said:
The only shame I see is that most people generalized any kind "moe/fanservice" into one large group and some simply can't ignore it, they simply don't have any kind of measure trying to differentiate the types of fanservice.
Honestly, If a Studio wants to make a fanservicey series, GO FOR IT, the only thing I expect is consistent quality. If your preferences only allows you to watch 1 anime per season, then deal with it. Personally I don't have any preferences tying me down, as a result I can pretty much enjoy anything objectively.
OT: SAO 2 doesn't need saving. Its sales are on top of almost anything. The only thing that beat SAO 2's sales is "Love Live" a School Idol anime.
@Kaimax
I acknowledge that everyone has their tastes and indeed, everyone should make what they wanna make. However, anime is still something that needs to sell to exist, and with their ever-dwindling population, if they want to make real money, in the future they'll also have to sell outside of Japan more. While some might drown in the moe blobs, not everything that comes from anime is positive as some would believe (moe being a part of that. Sure, I get it. Some of you watch to have fun, right, and don't want to change the strange cultural stuff or get too deep into politics of negative anime trates, tropes etc.
I know a lot of artists cut their early teeth on adult doujins, which seems to have positive and negative effects per artist. Again, they have to eat, pay bills etc. I grew up as a big Shirow fan, but he's lost the plot these days, with no work to top his Tank Police and GitS days. Its great for an artist to be able to emulate other types of work, but its alwasy good to see them make something cool of their own.
For those of you out there, you'll probably find your anime tastes will shift a bit as you grow. Younger fans tend to eat up anything, just because its fun and different.
Lastly as for shows per season. try not to read too much into that. Parasyte is the main show with a decent tale this season (had the manga prior to it) for me, persoanlly. Last season it was Jojo and Kill La (because of their action comedy stuff) and Psycho Pass and Tokyo Ghoul (types of anime we rarely see these days. Special nod goes to Rage of Bahamut too. The more good stuff there is, the more I'll check out and buy.
I acknowledge that everyone has their tastes and indeed, everyone should make what they wanna make. However, anime is still something that needs to sell to exist, and with their ever-dwindling population, if they want to make real money, in the future they'll also have to sell outside of Japan more. While some might drown in the moe blobs, not everything that comes from anime is positive as some would believe (moe being a part of that. Sure, I get it. Some of you watch to have fun, right, and don't want to change the strange cultural stuff or get too deep into politics of negative anime trates, tropes etc.
I know a lot of artists cut their early teeth on adult doujins, which seems to have positive and negative effects per artist. Again, they have to eat, pay bills etc. I grew up as a big Shirow fan, but he's lost the plot these days, with no work to top his Tank Police and GitS days. Its great for an artist to be able to emulate other types of work, but its alwasy good to see them make something cool of their own.
For those of you out there, you'll probably find your anime tastes will shift a bit as you grow. Younger fans tend to eat up anything, just because its fun and different.
Lastly as for shows per season. try not to read too much into that. Parasyte is the main show with a decent tale this season (had the manga prior to it) for me, persoanlly. Last season it was Jojo and Kill La (because of their action comedy stuff) and Psycho Pass and Tokyo Ghoul (types of anime we rarely see these days. Special nod goes to Rage of Bahamut too. The more good stuff there is, the more I'll check out and buy.
This I see as a good post, with great reasoning as to why you hate SAO. I would personally put that does to your own problems still, however you're admitting its a personal thing. You hate it because, whilst you love it, it could have been more than it was - at least when greatly simplifying your statements.Twinmill5000 said:
This I can relate to. ME3, whilst everyone was "You just don't get the artistic integrity", and "Its not that bad", I was in the same boat as you. The game was average, the series had its flaws, but I loved it none the less. Its how they then just treated everything I had come to love with the series in the final game that resulted in the hatred I have for it, especially given what it could have been.
So, I can understand you here. If everyone is the same as you, I would have been fine if similar admissions had been made, rather than "Its got flaws, OMG, flaws, no, its the spawn of SATAN!". Personal reasons for disliking it? Relatable, and I can understand. Hating it because its flawed... Like most other things in the world, and even the anime that many state as better than it? That just seems hypocritical to me, and is something I'll argue against.
Personal reasons are personal, and whilst I might not agree, I can understand. Its those that try to make out that its objectively hate worthy, rather than simply average, that I find objectable.
Your argument is that nothing ever caries over. Well, that's false.lucky_sharm said:
As said, PTSD carries from SAO to GGO. Yes, its not touched on earlier. Its still a result of his experiences in SAO.
From there, his incident with Death Gun leads to
Him being attacked by the other death gun IRL in a latter arc, and being injected with the poison Death Gun uses to kill people, whilst trying to defend Asuna. This in turn leads him to be hospitalised and plugged into a virtual world - not game - in order to keep his mind protected elsewhere whilst they repair the damage done to his brain. As a result of this, he is then killed whilst plugged into this machine and the facility he is in comes under attack.
I think you're getting a bit of a double standard here.
Kirito and Asuna's relationship isn't affected? I see no problems here. The series isn't a Rom Com, nor a heavy drama. Its a lighthearted series about playing games. I'd appreciate it if they didn't force too much romantic bullshit into it - look at the complaints that Legend of Korra Book 1 received from Avatar fans. Too much romance. Jamming stuff in for 'consequences' is worse than leaving it out if its not a story focus TBH. In fact, I kind of like how its actually treated the Romance as what it is - a nice budding romance that doesn't HAVE to have any problems because "Storiieees". There is a bit of tension slightly in the LNs over the whole Sinon and Kirito being together in the cave ordeal during GGO, however as nothing was going on there, it gets dealt with very quickly, rather than exploding it into some stupid drama arc about Asuna being a jealous *****.
What is wrong with a romance that works, and that doesn't have a lot of problems? Is there something wrong with my relationship because its like that? Does it have to have stupid drama for it to be a 'real' romance?
Umm, yes, it tries to engage you in politics and lore...
So, Asuna potentially being brainwashed and trapped in a virtual realisty is game politics and lore...
A killer who kills people by shooting them in game - actually kills people - is game politics and lore...
Caliber, side story, I guess I'll agree here.
Mother Rosario? More personal story, with personal stakes, rather than mortal ones.
So, SAO has kept mortal stakes of some kind up until Caliber. Then it has some truthfully shaky stakes, then goes onto personal stakes. I'm not seeing your point here.
I also don't bash Log Horizon. I question how people can like it, and utterly hate SAO, and I will state that I'm not interested in it, but you won't see me going to Log Horizon threads and going "OMG, this anime is so bad. I hate it. Its got no stakes, shitty stereotyped characters, crap combat scenes" - ect. I compare it to your complaints about SAO, and even acknowledge my limited knowledge of it. If that counts as bashing I'll take you as having a penchant for Hyperbole, and thus all your complaints are simply greatly exaggerated rather than serious.
There's no cast...
Except Lisbeth, Klein, Silica, Sinon, Asuna, Kirito - ect, ect, ect.
Cast isn't those who are in every episode. Yes, the cast isn't constant, and thus we don't see a ton of development on them, but there is still a cast.
Yes, Kirito is a self insert rather than a deeply set character. He has some characterisation, though granted, not much. This does increase slightly as the story goes on, but overall he is kept without a heavy character. We have established this. Rather than the story being focused around Kirito, it shifts focus based on the arc. The first arc focuses around Kirito, the second is more the aftermath of SAO. Third focuses on Sinon, fourth on Zekken and Asuna. After that the focus shifts back to Kirito, but also to a couple of other characters on the side, and he does get some more characterisation.
Ok, how about we go to almost any number of anime out there. You normally don't notice until you watch it a second time, but it'd be easier to count the anime without panty shots than the ones with, even out of those with 'dire, dramatic narrative'.
There are some that are more respectful, but in anime... Its rarer.
The LN is not like that, however, so forgive me for not hating SAO due to animating staff doing what anime animators do, and shoving in a couple of panty shots - less and less extreme than in most anime I've seen.
Ok, who is the childhood friend/tsundere love interest?
Asuna? Not a childhood friend. Tsundere? Kind of a little in the early arcs maybe? Only part of that that fits is the love interest part.
If we're talking Sachi... Again, not childhood friend. Tsundere I'm not seeing either.
Other than those, we've got no LIs. So... Who are you talking about again?
I did give a concession for Leafa. I'll give you that.
Femme fatale... I'm going to assume again you mean Asuna. BARELY fits the description.
Bratty go-getter loli type... Silica? What of her is bratty? Clumsy I'd give you, bratty? Not so much. Go-getter? Is that meant to mean enthusiastic, if so then, sure, if its meant to be a more literal almost leader like role where they push out and try to do things independently - lolnope.
Tsundere with pink hair has to be Lisbeth. Very light tsundere. More than Tsundere, its not liking Kirito as he doesn't seem to care about anything, and then realising that he's a decent person and falling for him... Before discovering he's with Asuna. Yep, total Tsundere archetype. I can just recall all those scenes where she tells him she hates him, whilst really she loves him at that time, she just can't say it [Note; She actually does say it, and quite confidently, of her own accord, without pushing. Defs not tsundere archetype].
Purple hair go-getter loli I'm assuming is Zekken. It seems at this point your stereotype is "Flat chested" more than anything else, and that stereotype isn't even played. The 'loli' part of Zekkens character barely, if at all, comes up. I'll grant it does a little for Silica. Zekken? hardly.
Chilly girl that is turned into generic Harem member is obviously Sinon. Characterisation makes her less of one of these than most normal ones, though I'll give a concession here anyway.
So, outside of two, you are clinging to stereotypes by the barest threads. Compare to Log Horizon, again, since that's the comparison many have of a better series. The stereotypes there, from my limited experience, fit perfectly, and rather than playing with the stereotypes to suit a character, it seems that the steroetypes ARE the character. Pervy guy is pervy because you need a pervy stereotype guy in anime - and he's a lot less subtle about it than Klein is.
Complain about lack of characterisation all you want, but don't pretend that SAOs characters are these strong stereotypes - especially when you try and allocate them ones, and half the definition doesn't even fit.
So lets pretend Mothers Rosario never happened.
Lets pretend that Sinon didn't save Kirito IRL, admittedly after he helped save her.
Lets pretend that the next arc doesn't have Asuna doing her own independent thing to try and save Kirito, and will probably, if anything is, be the reason he might come back to life.
Lets forget that Lisbeth owns the best smith shop in the game, even if she isn't as good a warrior as Kirito, or as experienced in fighting bosses as he is - surprise surprise - or that she is the one that actually solved his problem of needing a second sword.
Lets forget the female protagonist in the next arc who is as strong or stronger than Kirito in a fight, and saves his skin.
Lets forget the female antagonist of the next arc, who is akin to if not literally a god, and very capable of solving her own problems.
Lets forget the female opponent of the antagonist, who is also basically a god, and who saves Kirito's but, though ends up sacrificing herself in the process.
Hell, in the next arc, Kirito does barely anything near as I can remember. He's a motivator, but that seems to be it.
I'll grant many of them are in the next arc, however to claim that the female cast are purely damsels in distress is incorrect. Some are - see Silica. Some are in certain situations - see Lisbeth. However don't pretend that they don't have anything going for them. No, the crafting expert can't fight a raid boss. Surprise! Play Skyrim, max out your forging, and go fight a Draugr deathlord and let me know how easy it is for you. Yes, the PTSD person can't get over it on there own. Thankyou for not belittling PTSD as something you just need some willpower to get past.
Yes, the main character solves the main plot points, and moves the story forward. Find me one anime where the main character
Ok, so I'm a 'domesticated housewife', because above all else in my life I want to be by the side of the woman I love?
Good to know.
Asuna, even after Married to Kirito, remains one of the strongest players in the game. She relaxes a lot more and becomes more human, rather than 2D raid clearer character, but she still goes in and fights the hard bosses - Skull Reaper for example. She's also the one that kills the fish Kirito brings up, solidifying her as a strong warrior, even when she is a family woman. Or how she is able to overcome hard programming in the game to undo her paralysis and save Kirito's life in his duel with Heathcliffe.
The second half of the season, she uses her brains to try and escape - contrary to your "they're all physically and mentally incompetent" - and almost manages it, outside of being caught at the last second because plot requirement. Total damsel in distress, only exists to be a housewife and nothing else. Sure.
In GGO, yes, she isn't a mina part of it. Her part was conceded to give Sinon some space as a character. She's still there though. And I mean, what's she going to do once the tournament is started? Hack the game and throw herself in with a level 1 character to a tournament she's not registered for? Right, seems legit.
Actually, I'd say she's shown to be weak before she meets Kirito. Suffering constantly from PTSD breakdowns IRL, and surviving only by locking out her emotions in MMOs and playing them.
Once Kirito enters the picture, she recognises that he's similar to her, with his own problems to deal with, and is able to open up to him. Yes, she see him as an inspiration for continuing to fight, and that motivates her to keep fighting, however outside of that she doesn't need "Rescuing". She fights her attacker and tries to run. She doesn't sit a damsel in distress. After her attacker starts to overpower Kirito, she saves him. She's disabled once by Death Gun in game, simply to show that he is able to cloaking and has a silenced sniper rifle. Even after that, she's the best ranger in the party, if not all games, and uses that skill to help Kirito from time to time.
Yes, most characters are demoted to side characters after their arc is over. As I said, this show doesn't have a constant cast and that's where a number of your problems likely come from. However, don't pretend the women become useless once they meet Kirito. Yes, the focus stays on the main character. Doesn't mean the others are useless, or even that they do nothing.
You know, I'm not going to strongly disagree with this. It is what it is. To be fair, the same is true of many, many anime. I don't know what makes SAO trying to be more 'serious' [In all actuality I find its more light hearted] than most of these. I'm still not seeing why SAO is singled out for this specific hate.