Highschool of the Dead, IMO, had the potential to be an amazing series, up there with Hellsing etc. Only thing that torpedoed it was the vastly unnecessary fan service.
ROFL, with Shoji Sato on Illustrations (AKA Inazuma famous for making 18+ Adult Doujins), and Daisuke Sato as the writer (Who's only real Success is HotD), you don't expect anything grand from their backgrounds as creators.
Its such a shame that most of these studios can't see that drowning their anime in too much moe/fan service crap and less focus on story is hurting them.
The only shame I see is that most people generalized any kind "moe/fanservice" into one large group and some simply can't ignore it, they simply don't have any kind of measure trying to differentiate the types of fanservice.
Honestly, If a Studio wants to make a fanservicey series, GO FOR IT, the only thing I expect is consistent quality. If your preferences only allows you to watch 1 anime per season, then deal with it. Personally I don't have any preferences tying me down, as a result I can pretty much enjoy anything objectively.
OT: SAO 2 doesn't need saving. Its sales are on top of almost anything. The only thing that beat SAO 2's sales is "Love Live" a School Idol anime.
I acknowledge that everyone has their tastes and indeed, everyone should make what they wanna make. However, anime is still something that needs to sell to exist, and with their ever-dwindling population, if they want to make real money, in the future they'll also have to sell outside of Japan more. While some might drown in the moe blobs, not everything that comes from anime is positive as some would believe (moe being a part of that. Sure, I get it. Some of you watch to have fun, right, and don't want to change the strange cultural stuff or get too deep into politics of negative anime trates, tropes etc.
I know a lot of artists cut their early teeth on adult doujins, which seems to have positive and negative effects per artist. Again, they have to eat, pay bills etc. I grew up as a big Shirow fan, but he's lost the plot these days, with no work to top his Tank Police and GitS days. Its great for an artist to be able to emulate other types of work, but its alwasy good to see them make something cool of their own.
For those of you out there, you'll probably find your anime tastes will shift a bit as you grow. Younger fans tend to eat up anything, just because its fun and different.
Lastly as for shows per season. try not to read too much into that. Parasyte is the main show with a decent tale this season (had the manga prior to it) for me, persoanlly. Last season it was Jojo and Kill La (because of their action comedy stuff) and Psycho Pass and Tokyo Ghoul (types of anime we rarely see these days. Special nod goes to Rage of Bahamut too. The more good stuff there is, the more I'll check out and buy.
This I see as a good post, with great reasoning as to why you hate SAO. I would personally put that does to your own problems still, however you're admitting its a personal thing. You hate it because, whilst you love it, it could have been more than it was - at least when greatly simplifying your statements.
This I can relate to. ME3, whilst everyone was "You just don't get the artistic integrity", and "Its not that bad", I was in the same boat as you. The game was average, the series had its flaws, but I loved it none the less. Its how they then just treated everything I had come to love with the series in the final game that resulted in the hatred I have for it, especially given what it could have been.
So, I can understand you here. If everyone is the same as you, I would have been fine if similar admissions had been made, rather than "Its got flaws, OMG, flaws, no, its the spawn of SATAN!". Personal reasons for disliking it? Relatable, and I can understand. Hating it because its flawed... Like most other things in the world, and even the anime that many state as better than it? That just seems hypocritical to me, and is something I'll argue against.
Personal reasons are personal, and whilst I might not agree, I can understand. Its those that try to make out that its objectively hate worthy, rather than simply average, that I find objectable.
lucky_sharm said:
I don't think "consequences" mean what you think it means. Bad things happen yes, but only in self-contained arcs where they are barely even referenced at all after the fact. Part of the reason why Kirito is seen as a Gary Stu is because literally everything turns either for the better or a status quo is maintained in which Kirito can further participate in VR MMO adventures at his leisure. His relationships and life in general go unchallenged no matter what bafflingly one-dimensional menace tries to threaten him. For instance, you have PTSD, and it kicks in during that one duel with "Death Gun" (still one of the dumbest names ever), Kirito freaks out a little bit and...still wins. Now, on its own that isn't a huge problem but I'll get into that later.
Your argument is that nothing ever caries over. Well, that's false.
As said, PTSD carries from SAO to GGO. Yes, its not touched on earlier. Its still a result of his experiences in SAO.
From there, his incident with Death Gun leads to
Him being attacked by the other death gun IRL in a latter arc, and being injected with the poison Death Gun uses to kill people, whilst trying to defend Asuna. This in turn leads him to be hospitalised and plugged into a virtual world - not game - in order to keep his mind protected elsewhere whilst they repair the damage done to his brain. As a result of this, he is then killed whilst plugged into this machine and the facility he is in comes under attack.
So, yes, overall Kirito is still able to go on adventuring in MMO worlds - until the events I mention above - because that's kind of the whole fucking story. You don't hate Log Horizon because the people are still alive and able to continue their adventures at the end of every season. Oh no, no consequences.
I think you're getting a bit of a double standard here.
Kirito and Asuna's relationship isn't affected? I see no problems here. The series isn't a Rom Com, nor a heavy drama. Its a lighthearted series about playing games. I'd appreciate it if they didn't force too much romantic bullshit into it - look at the complaints that Legend of Korra Book 1 received from Avatar fans. Too much romance. Jamming stuff in for 'consequences' is worse than leaving it out if its not a story focus TBH. In fact, I kind of like how its actually treated the Romance as what it is - a nice budding romance that doesn't HAVE to have any problems because "Storiieees". There is a bit of tension slightly in the LNs over the whole Sinon and Kirito being together in the cave ordeal during GGO, however as nothing was going on there, it gets dealt with very quickly, rather than exploding it into some stupid drama arc about Asuna being a jealous *****.
What is wrong with a romance that works, and that doesn't have a lot of problems? Is there something wrong with my relationship because its like that? Does it have to have stupid drama for it to be a 'real' romance?
You're bashing Log Horizon for lacking stakes...but SAO quits the perma-death premise after its first 13 episodes and tries to engage you in politics and lore that only a nerd that takes games 1000 times too seriously would feel invested in. Furthermore, you can have compelling stakes and tension that doesn't involve mortal danger, but you need actual characters with personal motivations, goals, and distinct personalities for t hat to happen, and SAO couldn't be further away from attaining that level of writing.
Umm, yes, it tries to engage you in politics and lore...
So, Asuna potentially being brainwashed and trapped in a virtual realisty is game politics and lore...
A killer who kills people by shooting them in game - actually kills people - is game politics and lore...
Caliber, side story, I guess I'll agree here.
Mother Rosario? More personal story, with personal stakes, rather than mortal ones.
So, SAO has kept mortal stakes of some kind up until Caliber. Then it has some truthfully shaky stakes, then goes onto personal stakes. I'm not seeing your point here.
I also don't bash Log Horizon. I question how people can like it, and utterly hate SAO, and I will state that I'm not interested in it, but you won't see me going to Log Horizon threads and going "OMG, this anime is so bad. I hate it. Its got no stakes, shitty stereotyped characters, crap combat scenes" - ect. I compare it to your complaints about SAO, and even acknowledge my limited knowledge of it. If that counts as bashing I'll take you as having a penchant for Hyperbole, and thus all your complaints are simply greatly exaggerated rather than serious.
The complaint isn't that there's no constant cast, but that there isn't a cast to begin with. It's the Kirito show for the most part. Don't get me wrong, a narrative that focuses primarily on one character isn't inherently bad, but the problem is that Kirito doesn't have a personality. Like seriously, this is basic stuff. What are his assorted mannerisms, dominant traits, quirks, flaws, etc? Literally nothing else defines him beyond that fact that he wears all black and solves everyone's problems.
There's no cast...
Except Lisbeth, Klein, Silica, Sinon, Asuna, Kirito - ect, ect, ect.
Cast isn't those who are in every episode. Yes, the cast isn't constant, and thus we don't see a ton of development on them, but there is still a cast.
Yes, Kirito is a self insert rather than a deeply set character. He has some characterisation, though granted, not much. This does increase slightly as the story goes on, but overall he is kept without a heavy character. We have established this. Rather than the story being focused around Kirito, it shifts focus based on the arc. The first arc focuses around Kirito, the second is more the aftermath of SAO. Third focuses on Sinon, fourth on Zekken and Asuna. After that the focus shifts back to Kirito, but also to a couple of other characters on the side, and he does get some more characterisation.
The difference between SAO and Highschool DXD is that one show pretends to have a dire and dramatic narrative and the other is plain in-your-face schlocky fun. See, this is where the word "tone" can be applied. SAO on the other hand mixes death and tragedy with girls getting upskirted and shoving their asses in front of the camera, so maybe now you can understand why some people hold vitriol towards it.
Ok, how about we go to almost any number of anime out there. You normally don't notice until you watch it a second time, but it'd be easier to count the anime without panty shots than the ones with, even out of those with 'dire, dramatic narrative'.
There are some that are more respectful, but in anime... Its rarer.
The LN is not like that, however, so forgive me for not hating SAO due to animating staff doing what anime animators do, and shoving in a couple of panty shots - less and less extreme than in most anime I've seen.
But as for the girls apparently not being cliches...they are SO cliched it hurts to even look at them despite their generically perfect anime-brand moe-blob cuteness. You have the childhood friend/tsundere love interest, little sister/cousin that wants to fuck her bro, the femme fatale, the bratty go-getter loli type, another variant of tsundere but with pink hair, slightly chilly girl but gets turned into a generic harem member, and then...yet another go-getter loli type but with purple hair. You can find any number of these character types in whatever harem show you find.
Ok, who is the childhood friend/tsundere love interest?
Asuna? Not a childhood friend. Tsundere? Kind of a little in the early arcs maybe? Only part of that that fits is the love interest part.
If we're talking Sachi... Again, not childhood friend. Tsundere I'm not seeing either.
Other than those, we've got no LIs. So... Who are you talking about again?
I did give a concession for Leafa. I'll give you that.
Femme fatale... I'm going to assume again you mean Asuna. BARELY fits the description.
Bratty go-getter loli type... Silica? What of her is bratty? Clumsy I'd give you, bratty? Not so much. Go-getter? Is that meant to mean enthusiastic, if so then, sure, if its meant to be a more literal almost leader like role where they push out and try to do things independently - lolnope.
Tsundere with pink hair has to be Lisbeth. Very light tsundere. More than Tsundere, its not liking Kirito as he doesn't seem to care about anything, and then realising that he's a decent person and falling for him... Before discovering he's with Asuna. Yep, total Tsundere archetype. I can just recall all those scenes where she tells him she hates him, whilst really she loves him at that time, she just can't say it [Note; She actually does say it, and quite confidently, of her own accord, without pushing. Defs not tsundere archetype].
Purple hair go-getter loli I'm assuming is Zekken. It seems at this point your stereotype is "Flat chested" more than anything else, and that stereotype isn't even played. The 'loli' part of Zekkens character barely, if at all, comes up. I'll grant it does a little for Silica. Zekken? hardly.
Chilly girl that is turned into generic Harem member is obviously Sinon. Characterisation makes her less of one of these than most normal ones, though I'll give a concession here anyway.
So, outside of two, you are clinging to stereotypes by the barest threads. Compare to Log Horizon, again, since that's the comparison many have of a better series. The stereotypes there, from my limited experience, fit perfectly, and rather than playing with the stereotypes to suit a character, it seems that the steroetypes ARE the character. Pervy guy is pervy because you need a pervy stereotype guy in anime - and he's a lot less subtle about it than Klein is.
Complain about lack of characterisation all you want, but don't pretend that SAOs characters are these strong stereotypes - especially when you try and allocate them ones, and half the definition doesn't even fit.
Regarding the "strong independent" character types I mentioned earlier, the problem with them is that not a single female character in this story has actually been able to solve their own problems, resolve any major plots, or at the very least save their own skins in dire scenarios. It doesn't help that they're barely characters at all on top of being incompetent physically and mentally.
So lets pretend Mothers Rosario never happened.
Lets pretend that Sinon didn't save Kirito IRL, admittedly after he helped save her.
Lets pretend that the next arc doesn't have Asuna doing her own independent thing to try and save Kirito, and will probably, if anything is, be the reason he might come back to life.
Lets forget that Lisbeth owns the best smith shop in the game, even if she isn't as good a warrior as Kirito, or as experienced in fighting bosses as he is - surprise surprise - or that she is the one that actually solved his problem of needing a second sword.
Lets forget the female protagonist in the next arc who is as strong or stronger than Kirito in a fight, and saves his skin.
Lets forget the female antagonist of the next arc, who is akin to if not literally a god, and very capable of solving her own problems.
Lets forget the female opponent of the antagonist, who is also basically a god, and who saves Kirito's but, though ends up sacrificing herself in the process.
Hell, in the next arc, Kirito does barely anything near as I can remember. He's a motivator, but that seems to be it.
I'll grant many of them are in the next arc, however to claim that the female cast are purely damsels in distress is incorrect. Some are - see Silica. Some are in certain situations - see Lisbeth. However don't pretend that they don't have anything going for them. No, the crafting expert can't fight a raid boss. Surprise! Play Skyrim, max out your forging, and go fight a Draugr deathlord and let me know how easy it is for you. Yes, the PTSD person can't get over it on there own. Thankyou for not belittling PTSD as something you just need some willpower to get past.
Yes, the main character solves the main plot points, and moves the story forward. Find me one anime where the main character aren't the ones that enact change in the world, that solve problems, or that move the story forward.
Also don't forget how the "strong women" in SAO are only really "strong" before they meet Kirito. Asuna goes from someone we're constantly told is one of the strongest players in the game, responsible for making considerable progress in saving everyone's lives, to Kirito's domesticated housewife whose only ambition in life is "to be with [Kirito]." Her only bit of action in the 2nd half of the first season was an attempted escape that culminated in her being sexually abused, and she became a sexual abuse target AGAIN just a few episodes later. In GGO, she's literally nothing but a cheerleader who holds her husbando's hand despite being ostensibly just as capable as Kirito of investigating Desu Gun.
Ok, so I'm a 'domesticated housewife', because above all else in my life I want to be by the side of the woman I love?
Good to know.
Asuna, even after Married to Kirito, remains one of the strongest players in the game. She relaxes a lot more and becomes more human, rather than 2D raid clearer character, but she still goes in and fights the hard bosses - Skull Reaper for example. She's also the one that kills the fish Kirito brings up, solidifying her as a strong warrior, even when she is a family woman. Or how she is able to overcome hard programming in the game to undo her paralysis and save Kirito's life in his duel with Heathcliffe.
The second half of the season, she uses her brains to try and escape - contrary to your "they're all physically and mentally incompetent" - and almost manages it, outside of being caught at the last second because plot requirement. Total damsel in distress, only exists to be a housewife and nothing else. Sure.
In GGO, yes, she isn't a mina part of it. Her part was conceded to give Sinon some space as a character. She's still there though. And I mean, what's she going to do once the tournament is started? Hack the game and throw herself in with a level 1 character to a tournament she's not registered for? Right, seems legit.
Sinon was shown to be strong and capable and awesome before she met Kirito, but from the moment Kirito enters the picture she's constantly losing her cool around him, always flustered, and needs him to come to the rescue. Sure, that's because the "plot" necessitated his rescuing her, but it's a pattern SAO consistently repeats. You build up these extremely capable women and have them slowly, over the course of a few weeks, become completely dependent on Kirito for survival and emotional support.
Actually, I'd say she's shown to be weak before she meets Kirito. Suffering constantly from PTSD breakdowns IRL, and surviving only by locking out her emotions in MMOs and playing them.
Once Kirito enters the picture, she recognises that he's similar to her, with his own problems to deal with, and is able to open up to him. Yes, she see him as an inspiration for continuing to fight, and that motivates her to keep fighting, however outside of that she doesn't need "Rescuing". She fights her attacker and tries to run. She doesn't sit a damsel in distress. After her attacker starts to overpower Kirito, she saves him. She's disabled once by Death Gun in game, simply to show that he is able to cloaking and has a silenced sniper rifle. Even after that, she's the best ranger in the party, if not all games, and uses that skill to help Kirito from time to time.
Yes, most characters are demoted to side characters after their arc is over. As I said, this show doesn't have a constant cast and that's where a number of your problems likely come from. However, don't pretend the women become useless once they meet Kirito. Yes, the focus stays on the main character. Doesn't mean the others are useless, or even that they do nothing.
It's a male-centric power fantasy story, so it's not exactly surprising. But that's how the series works.
You know, I'm not going to strongly disagree with this. It is what it is. To be fair, the same is true of many, many anime. I don't know what makes SAO trying to be more 'serious' [In all actuality I find its more light hearted] than most of these. I'm still not seeing why SAO is singled out for this specific hate.
To be fair, my impression of you is that you want to punch pretty much every anime other than Psycho Pass
As for the OT, just another of your typical *insert-show*-hater thread, where the show in question is neither a masterpiece nor a terrible trash that its detractors claims it to be. I always find it rather amusing that people try to examine what is essentially the equivalent of a teen/YA story as if it's a entry in some literary competition, sometimes I half-expect those types to start ripping Doraemon for being not "deep" enough.
Comparing F/Z to SAO is comparing apple and oranges, the two stories are not remotely close to being the same genre. It's like trying to compare a saturday morning cartoon and GoT.
lucky_sharm said:
I think what you really mean is that you have lower standards, because "liking something for what it is" doesn't mean what you think it means. As a property, you can't get any more generic and uninspired than SAO.
Do try to at least attempt to hide your elitist attitude, your holier-than-thou aura is almost suffocating, and your argument about as valid as someone claiming liking go-Karts means "you have lower standards", because it's not racing "real" cars.
*hint: it's not valid, not remotely*
lucky_sharm said:
Also, I'm noticing a trend in this thread, and it's always the accusation that people hate the show just to hate on it, yet there aren't any refutations made regarding the criticisms made against it
Besides the fact that the claim is patently false(as many have addressed/refuted said criticisms above), personally I find such exercises to be rather futile, especially between entrenched opposing views. What you consider to be flaws to be "criticized", others may not feel as strongly, or may even consider them to be good points.
Finally, I don't think the word tone means what you think it means
Frankly, I don't think you realize just how condescending and snobbish you sound.
And then you also have this viciously misogynistic narrative where every female character exists either to be some variation of boobs/legs/ass fodder for the audience, fall in love with Kirito, get rescued by Kirito, or be a tough independent person that gradually becomes more helpless and dependent and eventually "righted" by the perfect and resolute Kirito (cough Asuna and Sinon cough).
Yea... you keep right on ahead with that narrative.
And um..."Characters are bland, stereotypical, and utterly unlikable" yet you're defending Sword Art Online...[/quote]
To be fair, my impression of you is that you want to punch pretty much every anime other than Psycho Pass
As for the OT, just another of your typical *insert-show*-hater thread, where the show in question is neither a masterpiece nor a terrible trash that its detractors claims it to be. I always find it rather amusing that people try to examine what is essentially the equivalent of a teen/YA story as if it's a entry in some literary competition, sometimes I half-expect those types to start ripping Doraemon for being not "deep" enough.
Comparing F/Z to SAO is comparing apple and oranges, the two stories are not remotely close to being the same genre. It's like trying to compare a saturday morning cartoon and GoT.
1: I've given positive reviews to "Fate Prisma Illya","When Supernatural Battles become Commonplace" and will be giveing one to "Rage of Bahamut Genesis" I like some shows it's just that a lot of other shows make me angry enough to blow my top
2: funny thing about that, SAO was technially made to be entered into a light novel competition but apprently, the page limit was passed so the author put it online.
You're saying that its the equivalent of young adult novels...is that supposed to be a point in its favor or excuse its awfulness? Because I don't think anyone with a remotely critical mindset tries to defend Twilight and its ilk.
That's nice...so do you actually have a point to make or are you still getting to one? Any refutations? Arguments? Rebuttals? Anything like that? See, this is exactly what I'm saying. Why is it so difficult to have a discussion about his show? Making unsubstantiated accusations toward people you disagree with seems to be all that goes on in these kinds of threads. (you're doing a very good job of supporting my own, however, thanks for that by the way)
Also, the fact that you legitimately read that level of malicious intent in my posts says more about you than it does me. If you legitimately pay no mind to the utterly glaring flaws that this show has, then you either have lower standards (so low that you're digging through the earth's core at this point), never exposed to any famous plays/classic novels/movies/odysseys/any piece of media with a semblance of wit and depth, or you just like watching terrible shows (which isn't a bad thing honestly).
I mean, I get why people like this show, but I'm baffled that there are people older than 14 years of age that actually try to defend its story on a level higher than "hormone-addled male power fantasy for shut-in nerds".
A common theme I'm finding in your post is that you're excusing the show's flaws by saying that "all other anime does the same thing so why should it matter here"(cough bullshit cough), and it makes me wonder if you realize that anime in general aren't exactly a reliable metric by which you should judge quality of writing.
I wouldn't call SAO lighthearted as it is completely schizophrenic in its tone and content. You have harem antics, cliched anime comedy, bouncing tits, gratuitous ass shots, shitty juvenile humor overall and...mass murder, PTSD, AIDS, and graphic depictions of molestation and sexual assault. The problem isn't the depiction itself but the fact that SAO lacks any kind of maturity or grace in its storytelling to actually deal with these very serious themes, neither in a respecful or even compelling fashion.
SAO is an OK show. Its written for teenagers not grown men. As are most anime. You should never judge young adult fiction, expecting it to be masterpiece of writing, plot and wit. You should expect fantasy. That's what it is designed to give the viewer. A fantasy. Look up the definition of a fantasy if you don't understand.
Lots of people are way too harsh on this show, simply because its popular and they don't like it. Hint: if its popular there is a reason even if you don't agree with it. 2nd Hint: It's popular because its a great fantasy.
If a show doesn't provide YOU with what YOU want that does not make it bad, poorly written, etc. It means you need to move on with your life and do something else, not demonize it (or any other work) just because you disagree with parts of it.
Facts:
1) Excellent animation/excellent combat scenes (most important part of these kind of shows)
2) Excellent characters, writing, and a very unique setting for this specific type of fantasy (a very original and seldom used fantasy setting)
3) Lots of episodes leaving viewers with lots of content
4) Even more source material for potential future seasons
5) You should appreciate this show if you've ever fantasized about living in a virtual MMO
Not Facts:
Kirito is a bad character
The writer is bad/didn't do a good job on SAO because you don't like what x character or y character does in the show
The show is bad because its popular
It's not good because you don't like the setting, the characters or the appeal
You're saying that its the equivalent of young adult novels...is that supposed to be a point in its favor or excuse its awfulness? Because I don't think anyone with a remotely critical mindset tries to defend Twilight and its ilk.
That's nice...so do you actually have a point to make or are you still getting to one? Any refutations? Arguments? Rebuttals? Anything like that? See, this is exactly what I'm saying. Why is it so difficult to have a discussion about his show? Making unsubstantiated accusations toward people you disagree with seems to be all that goes on in these kinds of threads. (you're doing a very good job of supporting my own, however, thanks for that by the way)
Also, the fact that you legitimately read that level of malicious intent in my posts says more about you than it does me. If you legitimately pay no mind to the utterly glaring flaws that this show has, then you either have lower standards (so low that you're digging through the earth's core at this point), never exposed to any famous plays/classic novels/movies/odysseys/any piece of media with a semblance of wit and depth, or you just like watching terrible shows (which isn't a bad thing honestly).
I mean, I get why people like this show, but I'm baffled that there are people older than 14 years of age that actually try to defend its story on a level higher than "hormone-addled male power fantasy for shut-in nerds".
Its a young adult story. If that's not for you, cool. However, don't hate on it because its not Shakespeare [Which IMO is pretty bad and terrible half the time. Too much shitty drama]. It is what it is. No-one is claiming it isn't. Don't like that sort of thing? Cool. Don't see that as a reason to go on for 3 pages of a thread about how terrible it is though.
The point is, half your arguments have no standing. Your criticisms are flawed, and more an excuse to hate than actually backed by evidence. I don't need to refute your arguments, as they don't even stand on their own. All the characters are stereotypes... But few actually match the Stereotypes you assign them. The story has no stakes... Except when it does. Nothing Kirito does ever comes back to haunt him... Except Death Gun, and what I have mentioned in the spoilers countless times. The women characters are all weak damsels in distress for Kirito to save... Except they're not. Even after being saved by Kirito [And in some cases saving him] they are some of the strongest characters on the given server, except the weaklings like Silica. Females never solve their own problems, except when Asuna and Yuuki get their own entire all-girls arc, with a guest appearance by Kirito for 2 seconds. Which of your criticisms stand? That its an anime and thus has fan service? Great. Even that, as said, isn't as bad as many other anime.
If you don't like it, or think its average, that's fine. Going on for 3 pages about how flawed it is, but your stated 'flaws' failing on every count to be true is a bit beyond that. I don't know what "Malicious intent" you talk about... Unless hating something counts as malicious intent, in which my posts have always been about general people hating SAO [Of which there are a large number], and rarely, if ever, specifically calling you out.
Nobody tries to defend its story as a masterpiece. It isn't. No-one would argue it is. Its a teenage male fantasy story. What did you expect from a shounen anime [Teenage-Male audience aimed anime]. Seriously?
What people do defend is that, whilst it ain't the greatest show ever made, its far from the worst, or even 'THE quintessential bad anime', to quote you earlier. Its a average to good shounen anime. If you were looking for deep and 'witty' plot, you were looking in the wrong place to start with. Rather than reviewing it by the standards of what you WANTED to watch, how about reviewing it by the standards of its genre?
You don't go to a metal concert and then rate it 3 out of 10 because whilst it managed a melody, there was no finesse, and it lacked many classical instruments like the Violin, Piano or Bassoon. You went to a damn metal concert, what did you expect?
A common theme I'm finding in your post is that you're excusing the show's flaws by saying that "all other anime does the same thing so why should it matter here"(cough bullshit cough), and it makes me wonder if you realize that anime in general aren't exactly a reliable metric by which you should judge quality of writing.
You misunderstand. I am simply confused by the hypocrisy of many; "SAO is so bad, it has all these flaws. X [Usually Log Horizon in this thread] is much better!", meanwhilst X has those exact same flaws, only worse IMO. Why is X lauded as amazing, and SAO hated as being terrible?
Its that sort of hypocrisy that kind of gets my goat, if you will.
I wouldn't call SAO lighthearted as it is completely schizophrenic in its tone and content. You have harem antics, cliched anime comedy, bouncing tits, gratuitous ass shots, shitty juvenile humor overall and...mass murder, PTSD, AIDS, and graphic depictions of molestation and sexual assault. The problem isn't the depiction itself but the fact that SAO lacks any kind of maturity or grace in its storytelling to actually deal with these very serious themes, neither in a respecful or even compelling fashion.
The subject matter it covers doesn't decide whether its light hearted or not. HOW it covers it does. Mass Murder is barely touched upon as a thing. Its the same as the intro to any number of anime. Lots of people died in some disaster caused by someone. Now we will go fight this someone.
SAO never really focuses on the fact that a lot of people died - its mentioned occasionally, but during its first arc the focus is always on the world, and learning to live in a virtual world, accepting it as a reality rather than a cage. The second season focuses on exploring the Elfheim world, and interacting with the VRMMO world post SAO. Little of it focuses on more heavy hearted things, except the face of with the villain, and the brocon episodes. Third arc gets a little darker, with the focus being on the PTSD side of things and moving through that. Caliber is light hearted as hell. Mother's Rosario is both light hearted and sad.
There are a couple of scenes in each season where the bad guys show up, and we're faced with a slightly darker tone - as is normally the case when villains appear - however by and large especially the first season was a very light hearted anime, with little excess drama, and much more a feel of discovering the worlds of SAO.
Graphic depictions of certain things are more the choice of the animation company than the actual series itself, I will again point out. In the LN, outside of 16.5, there is little 'graphic' about depictions of such things.
Does it lack maturity and grace? Maybe. I feel its more that, being a shounen anime, its trying to send a different message to what a more mature show would send for such themes. How it deals with such themes isn't for you. However, it obviously is for a large number of people, given the fanbase it has. This doesn't mean a large number of people have shit taste, or enjoy watching crap, it simply means that what those people enjoy watching is catered to well by SAO. If anything, that shows that SAO is a good anime, as it achieves what it wanted to, and it matches its target audience well. Shounen isn't for everyone. Doesn't mean you should review individual shounen anime and say they're crap, when you were watching the wrong genre for what you wanted in the first place. I think Michael sums it up best:
michael87cn said:
Why do people watch sports? Is it stupid? Yeah, it IS stupid. Is it fun? YES it is fun to watch sports.
Why do people watch SAO? Its fun. That is all something needs to be good and worthwhile.
SAO ain't some deep and meaningful crap. Neither is sports. They're there to be fun to watch, not to push some opinion on some political issue like Virtual Reality and digital crime like a more 'mature' anime would. That's not a bad thing. It means they're just there for entertainment, rather than to be deep and meaningful.
SAO is an OK show. Its written for teenagers not grown men. As are most anime. You should never judge young adult fiction, expecting it to be masterpiece of writing, plot and wit. You should expect fantasy. That's what it is designed to give the viewer. A fantasy. Look up the definition of a fantasy if you don't understand.
Lots of people are way too harsh on this show, simply because its popular and they don't like it. Hint: if its popular there is a reason even if you don't agree with it. 2nd Hint: It's popular because its a great fantasy.
If a show doesn't provide YOU with what YOU want that does not make it bad, poorly written, etc. It means you need to move on with your life and do something else, not demonize it (or any other work) just because you disagree with parts of it.
Facts:
1) Excellent animation/excellent combat scenes (most important part of these kind of shows)
2) Excellent characters, writing, and a very unique setting for this specific type of fantasy (a very original and seldom used fantasy setting)
3) Lots of episodes leaving viewers with lots of content
4) Even more source material for potential future seasons
5) You should appreciate this show if you've ever fantasized about living in a virtual MMO
Not Facts:
Kirito is a bad character
The writer is bad/didn't do a good job on SAO because you don't like what x character or y character does in the show
The show is bad because its popular
It's not good because you don't like the setting, the characters or the appeal
I can most certainly judge young adult fiction, especially when there's movies and TV shows aimed towards children with the capacity to be more poignant, clever, subversive and well-written than said young adult fiction. There's absolutely no excuse for lazy, crappy writing.
Also, I think you should look up the word "fact" because saying things like "lots of episodes with lot of content" (a quarter to sometimes entire episodes filled with exposition and explaining to the audience what they already figured out on their own) "you should appreciate this show if you fantasize about living in an mmo" (you don't need a show for that, it's called masturbation) and "excellent characters, writing" (if you actually have this opinion then either you watch too much anime or all the wrong kinds), these are "opinions" not facts.
The show is bad because it is bad. If you like it regardless then more power to you, I guess.
You see, I can get behind media in general that sets out to be just plain schlocky fun even when its completely dumb and over the top, but the thing about SAO is that its just plain boring on top of being unpleasant and uncomfortable to watch.
You sometimes have these cool and flashy scenes of characters spinning and jumping around with their shiny glowy swords, but nothing is actually happening. Swords bang and clash around and light up, but there's no narrative going on. You either have Kirito fighting monsters or Kirito beating up one-dimensional villains. There's no tension or drama when you have two characters that have no chemistry or previously established bond or connection, or when you know for a fact that Kirito pulls through no matter what gets thrown at him, either by brute force or out of his ass (Yui/Admin privileges).
All the top notch visuals in the world can't save your story when you have entire scenes, sometimes EPISODES of absolutely nothing happening, where two characters are just talking to each other in the least compelling or visually engaging manner possible. Such settings include the following: a cafe, a bar, more cafes, and a cave.
It doesn't help that there isn't a single interesting or noteworthy character worth caring about, and that's really what most of SAO's problems come down to. The "cast" in this story aren't even humans but more like empty husks decorated in cliche, and the majority of them are, at best, tangentially involved in the actual plot, save for Kirito (who would have guessed), the newest waifu that phases into existence by virtue of Kirito's involvement, and whatever one dimensional villains of the evening that the author can conjure up.
And with regards to
"Yes, the main character solves the main plot points, and moves the story forward. Find me one anime where the main character aren't the ones that enact change in the world, that solve problems, or that move the story forward."
There's a world of difference between a story in which its entire universe revolves around a single character, and a story in which main characters all naturally exist in a world as cogs, small parts of an even greater machine.
And actually, there's more stuff that I meant to reply to in my last post but I'll just put it here:
No, the romance between Asuna and Kirito doesn't work because there's absolutely nothing going on between them. It's literally there for its own sake and the author's I'd imagine *COUGH 2 YEARS OF SEMEN GLOPPED ENDLESSLY INTO ASUNA COUGH*. Hell, forget about things like conflict and strife, there's scarcely any kind of chemistry or dynamic between them in their normal interactions, let alone a romantic one, because the characters are so shallow. You see, this is why basic things like persistent traits and you know, personality overall are important to a story because this is fiction where first impressions and establishing flow are essential, so something has to stand out and capture the viewer's/reader's/etc imagination. Also, I'll get into the "stupid drama" thing later on.
But hold on, if the story isn't about Kirito, who the hell is it about then? Because as far as how we've seen thus far, nothing ever happens without his involvement. It's only when he shows up in GGO that people discover the whole blocking bullets with a lightsaber thing. It's only when he shows up that people realize that the AGI stat isn't completely worthless. It's pretty much only him that thinks to anticipate the projected bullet trajectory. It's as if the hardcore players didn't comb through every single mechanic in the game. In Mother's Rosario, Zekken's main thing is that she beat Kirito (all in scenarios where there's nothing dire or urgent happening) and its only then that she's sought out, because Kirito.
And because Kirito seems contractually obligated to be at the center of everything in his universe, it further compounds the issue regarding the "cast", or rather the lack of one. With the most generous interpretation of the word "cast" I suppose you could say that SAO has one, but it's so bloated with utterly useless and irrelevant characters that if you were to count down with one hand how many characters actually have a personal connection to the central plot in the story (beyond the purpose of barfing more exposition, being a stepladder for Kirito, or being the big bad villain, I mean actual characters with personalities and personal goals in the story), you'd probably have only have 2 fingers up at the very most. By the way, the femme fatale character I was referring to was that one red-haired slutty villain girl from season 1, you know, the one that Kirito helped Silica out with and basically whooped her without breaking a sweat.
Now see, the reason why I keep saying that the "cast" in this show are a bunch of useless, shallow stereotypes is because of the lack of "stupid drama". No, I'm not saying that you need characters to shout at each other and spew hatred and venom, but simply put, the characters in this story have as much depth as a rain puddle.
You see, when you have actual, well-realized, well-thought out characters, you also have characters that possess their own opinions, viewpoints, ideologies, ambitions, and personal goals. In SAO, as the review put it, everyone loves Kirito and nothing matters, and the only characters that don't like Kirito are basically codified bullies, idiots, and villains. When you have characters with such different ideals and views, conflict and friction naturally occurs between them, all of which occur between friends, family, and especially loved ones. Hell, these interactions don't even have to be dramatic or heavy, they can be entertaining or at the very least interesting, bringing out the more subtle aspects of characters when they're interacting with someone out of their comfort zone.
But...I suppose this IS fantasy, and if relationships ever go sour or fracture at any point then that just ruins the wish-fulfillment wonderland.
Another problem is that the story tells rather than shows, and Asuna and Shinon are part of but not even the most glaring examples of this. For instance, Asuna is repeatedly revered by the narrative in addition to Kirito as an equal and having all these superior attributes that he apparently lacks. Supposedly she did a number of kickass things on her own, but the audience never gets to see or experience these apparently spectacular achievements. On its own, this wouldn't be too big of an issue, but from the moment she reunites with Kirito she amounts to jacksquat overall and is reduced to an extra in the background (alongside Klein and later Agil) who all tokenly "help out" while Kirito reaps all the glory. Of course, you have the second act of Season 2 where she actually gets action...but nothing dire or urgent is happening, she's just hanging out with someone online while beating up virtual monsters.
And then there's Sinon. Whoo boy. Sinon is apparently a foil to Kirito, but what does she tell us about him? What does her character tell us about herself? Everything that happened from her mental breakdown to her resolve about being strong is incredibly insulting. She goes PTSD and instead of having realistic breakdown, she clings to Kirito, talks about how strong he is, yells "save me" multiple times, and drags her own character through the mud. Yeah I get it, she's meant to show weakness because that's a part of her character. That's fine but the show doesn't know how to properly portray this. The execution of her character is crooked, it leans entirely on Kirito. She comes across as a whiny insufferable baby who magically gains resolve after resting in Kirito's lap for a while. Just because the show tells us she has PTSD doesn't mean it gets a free pass when going through the details.
The most glaring example? The show straight up has no imagination. At all. The show literally fails screenwriting 101 by spending a quarter to sometimes ENTIRE episodes in which exposition is soullessly delivered between two characters sitting in a cafe, lounge, cave, or whatever setting that's the least interesting or visually engaging, and it doesn't help that the characters involved in these completely dull scenes are either made up of Kirito (cardboard cutout Gary Stu #123) talking with supporting character/soon-to-be harem member female protagonist #1353, or if we're lucky, two supporting characters. Not particularly fun or engaing. Oh yeah, that's another thing. I don't think the author even has the capacity to write for more than 2 or 3 characters at a time, but I digress. This is what bloated GGO to 13 episodes, because when you take into account the amount of actual plot that occurred in it, it wouldn't even be enough to fill 7 episodes.
It doesn't help that SAO doesn't have an original bone in its body and even has the audacity to depict "Death Gun" with a breathing mask effect. It's like the author heard about Star Wars and thought "wow Darth Vader is cool, I want him in my story too, but more kakkoi and edgy" without even a fundamental understanding of what made Darth Vader so memorable and menacing to begin with.
You're saying that its the equivalent of young adult novels...is that supposed to be a point in its favor or excuse its awfulness? Because I don't think anyone with a remotely critical mindset tries to defend Twilight and its ilk.
I would say quite a few people would defend Twilight, a great deal of them as a matter of fact, and just exactly who appointed you the arbiter of what constitutes "critical mindeset", or indeed what's supposed to be good or awful for anyone other than yourself?
But then again, I think your utter lack of addressing your condescending and holier-than-thou attitudes speaks volume as to who you think appointed you the lord of all things media related.
That's nice...so do you actually have a point to make or are you still getting to one? Any refutations? Arguments? Rebuttals? Anything like that?
I believe I did, you simply declined to address them.
Besides, it's quite an exercise in futility to have any sort of rational debate when one side seems rather keen on raving like a madman spewing little else other than hyperboles.
Also, the fact that you legitimately read that level of malicious intent in my posts says more about you than it does me.
Malice? I hardly think so, I simply pointed out how much of a condescending DB you've come across in your posts, as immediately displayed in the following paragraph:
If you legitimately pay no mind to the utterly glaring flaws that this show has, then you either have lower standards (so low that you're digging through the earth's core at this point), never exposed to any famous plays/classic novels/movies/odysseys/any piece of media with a semblance of wit and depth, or you just like watching terrible shows (which isn't a bad thing honestly).
1: I've given positive reviews to "Fate Prisma Illya","When Supernatural Battles become Commonplace" and will be giveing one to "Rage of Bahamut Genesis" I like some shows it's just that a lot of other shows make me angry enough to blow my top
2: funny thing about that, SAO was technially made to be entered into a light novel competition but apprently, the page limit was passed so the author put it online.
- Bahamut was very enjoyable, quite a surprising gem considering the source material.
- Aye, SAO was one of Kawahara's first LN, and frankly quite decent compared to its contemporaries(unless of course, you want to take a classic literature microscope to it like someone in this thread seems to have). The fragmented nature of the first half of SAO (everything before Alicization) I presume is more of a result of its own success - Kawahara probably never really planned the story beyond what he wrote initially for the competition, and it took awhile for him to really nail down the direction he wanted to go, a problem that you don't see in Accel World.
I have no doubt that there's a group of people that would try to defend Twilight but all it really proves is that not everything that is popular actually merits it.
But besides that, you haven't made any rebuttals...you're still firing away unsubstantiated accusations without actually addressing any points made previously regarding the actual topic of this thread, but then again it's probably easier to paint other people as mad in lieu of engaging in a discussion.
Also, I don't think "hyperbole" means what you think it means. The only reason what I say sounds exaggerated is because that is how its depicted in the actual fucking show itself, I mean I could always sugar coat it by saying "it COULD be less like this" or "maaaybe they could stand to do less of this" but it is what it is. You see, THIS is an accusation supported by reality.
Furthermore, responding to (what you are perceiving as, apparently) a condescending attitude with another condescending attitude isn't helping your case, either.
I have no doubt that there's a group of people that would try to defend Twilight but all it really proves is that not everything that is popular actually merits it.
Quite, the difference is that I recognize that is purely my subjective opinion, while you try to assert your opinion as objective fact.
Ultimately, what determines whether something's popularity is "merited", especially for a commercial product - is the success of the product itself, and by extension it's own popularity.
But besides that, you haven't made any rebuttals...you're still firing away unsubstantiated accusations without actually addressing any points made previously regarding the actual topic of this thread
Why would I? other posters have been doing that already, with many points I would've made myself. But if you must, I simply consider SAO(anime) to be an average shounen show that, for the most part, does not have much in the way of particularly strong points nor fatal flaws. Unremarkable really, save for the fanatical haters it seems to generate, and hardly the "worst show ever" that some, including you, seem to believe it is.
As for "unsubstantiated", I believe I've quoted quite a few already...
Also, I don't think "hyperbole" means what you think it means
...but thanks for demonstrating it once again for everyone. BTW, is that your go to catch-phrase? I don't think it works nearly as well as you think it does
Also, I'm fairly certain that "you either have lower standards (so low that you're digging through the earth's core at this point)" fits the dictionary definition of hyperbole.
The only reason what I say sounds exaggerated is because that is how its depicted in the actual fucking show itself
One can quite easily criticize the show without come across as a condescending asshole, many have done it earlier in the thread, I'm not sure why you find it so difficult.
Also, responding to (what you are perceiving as, apparently) a condescending attitude with another condescending attitude isn't helping your case, either.
I don't think "condescending" means what you think it means(zing! did I do it right? )
No, condescending to you would be claiming how ignorant/lack of class/standard you must be to not see things the way my obviously superior intellect have decided - ie. basically how you've behaved in this thread.
Simply calling you out on your attitude however, is not. It's merely me telling you you're being obnoxious.
Alright I get it, you think I'm being condescending and that's basically the gist of your input in this thread, but there is a difference between what you personally interpret and what's actually being conveyed. I'm beginning to think that you're just projecting on me at this point.
But anyway, regarding popularity there's different reasons for why it occurs. Sometimes the property is actually good and other times it simply capitalizes on various facets of wish-fulfillment and base desires (in Twilight's case, having a pair of studly handsome men competing for your affection, rescuing you, guiding you to happiness without any effort made on your part, abstinence metaphor, etc etc).
Yet again, you're refusing to actually participate in what's being discussed, I mean I expected that in these kinds of threads but jeez, try and act more self-aware, will you?
Also, we all have opinions. There is, however, such a thing as a wrong opinion, typically ones that are not supported by any evidence, arguments, or reality. Everyone is allowed to have one but if you want yours taken seriously then you'd better at least put some effort in justifying it, something you have yet to do in this thread.
Alright I get it, you think I'm being condescending and that's basically the gist of your input in this thread, but there is a difference between what you personally interpret and what's actually being conveyed. I'm beginning to think that you're just projecting on me at this point.
If you were trying to convey your points without being condescending, I can assure you that you have failed most spectacularly. Look over the stuff you've written in this thread, and see how many of them contain phrases that one would most likely not want to say/email to their boss/parents/people they like to keep as friends.
But anyway, regarding popularity there's different reasons for why it occurs. Sometimes the property is actually good and other times it simply capitalizes on various facets of wish-fulfillment and base desires (in Twilight's case, having a pair of studly handsome men competing for your affection, rescuing you, guiding you to happiness without any effort made on your part, abstinence metaphor, etc etc).
Which is completely irrelevant to whether it has "merit". Entertainment media isn't something like, say, automobiles, where "merits" can be objectively measured. For something that's created to entertain its audience, the only "merit" that matters is whether or not it has achieved that goal.
Yet again, you're refusing to actually participate in what's being discussed, I mean I expected that in these kinds of threads but jeez, try and act more self-aware, will you?
I have participated, just not in the banal and futile back-and-forth on minute and frankly irrelevant subjective interpretations of plot points that you seem to find so enjoyable.
Also, we all have opinions. There is, however, such a thing as a wrong opinion, typically ones that are not supported by any evidence, arguments, or reality. Everyone is allowed to have one but if you want yours taken seriously then you'd better at least put some effort in justifying it, something you have yet to do in this thread.
Indeed, people can have opinions on whether or not gravity exists, and those that disagrees would be wrong because it's objectively provable. However, when it comes to things that's inherently SUBJECTIVE, such as music, movies, or say, anime, there cannot be a right or wrong opinion, as that would require the existence of an universal standard, which as far as I know does not exist. Personally, I doubt you're going to find a section on what qualifies as good entertainment even if humanity discovers the theory of everything.
PS. Just because you may disagree with some opinions/arguments/evidence/reality, it does not make them non-existent. Seriously, you just claimed yet again that you can literally decide which subjective opinions is objective fact, and you wonder why I call you condescending?
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