A View From the Road: Screw Warcraft IV

[John Funk]

A View From the Road: Screw Warcraft IV

Why can?t an MMOG be a proper chapter in a continuing story?

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[SaintWaldo]

We don't agree on much within WoW, but Funk and I do appear to agree on this: WoW is the sequential water carrier for the Warcraft canon.

In the words of Tom Servo, "Deal with it, Pinkboy!"

 

[Phokal]

The reason is not that the MMO can't perform story telling, it's that you can't build off of it in relation to your character.

While most play mechanics in RPGs have been slowly simplifying to a more MMO realtime style, there is one thing that the MMO can never fully duplicate: the main character.

If I'm playing through a game that references the past game, I want to have *substantial* insight on the characters that are mentioned. They should be party members, or in most cases, the main character. When Warcraft IV: the RTS comes out, it will simply not carry the same impact to have the story be: "The Paladins fought back on the beach, into the dark temple!"

You'll think "hey, wait, it wasn't just them. I was there, too. I'm not a paladin! I'm a crazy witchdoctor who was helping his gnome find some glasses and *happened* to save the day" But you can never be referenced, since your character is fluid (even more fluid than the choices made in Mass Effect or KOTOR). It's not just a matter of having the next plot deal with "well, they could have played as good or evil" but player motivations and backstories in MMOs are endless. The plot will have to be entirely static, depicted as you only helped events played out but had no control over them (even if the control is an illusion, or written off as a non-cannon sequel).

KOTOR 3 better be in development. I don't just want to see what happens next, I want to participate with the main characters and control actions; not hear about it 300 years later as some quest giver talks about some ancient war.

Warcraft is a slightly different beast, since you were a nameless general. But I still imagine having more fun directly controlling the heroes, rather than following in their footsteps as a foot-soldier.

Commercially, there is also the issue: I have played and purchased Warcraft 1-3 and WoW, but only got to level 15 or so before stopping. I haven't been playing it (just not different enough from City of Heroes). So, how are they going to bring me back up to speed when Warcraft 4: the RTS comes out? Are they going to downplay the story of WoW and sum it up in a 5 minute cinematic? Or just abandon the core fans who actually like playing RTS games?

 

[John Funk]

The reason is not that the MMO can't perform story telling, it's that you can't build off of it in relation to your character.

While most play mechanics in RPGs have been slowly simplifying to a more MMO realtime style, there is one thing that the MMO can never fully duplicate: the main character.

If I'm playing through a game that references the past game, I want to have *substantial* insight on the characters that are mentioned. They should be party members, or in most cases, the main character. When Warcraft IV: the RTS comes out, it will simply not carry the same impact to have the story be: "The Paladins fought back on the beach, into the dark temple!"

You'll think "hey, wait, it wasn't just them. I was there, too. I'm not a paladin! I'm a crazy witchdoctor who was helping his gnome find some glasses and *happened* to save the day" But you can never be referenced, since your character is fluid (even more fluid than the choices made in Mass Effect or KOTOR). It's not just a matter of having the next plot deal with "well, they could have played as good or evil" but player motivations and backstories in MMOs are endless. The plot will have to be entirely static, depicted as you only helped events played out but had no control over them (even if the control is an illusion, or written off as a non-cannon sequel).

KOTOR 3 better be in development. I don't just want to see what happens next, I want to participate with the main characters and control actions; not hear about it 300 years later as some quest giver talks about some ancient war.

Warcraft is a slightly different beast, since you were a nameless general. But I still imagine having more fun directly controlling the heroes, rather than following in their footsteps as a foot-soldier.

Commercially, there is also the issue: I have played and purchased Warcraft 1-3 and WoW, but only got to level 15 or so before stopping. I haven't been playing it (just not different enough from City of Heroes). So, how are they going to bring me back up to speed when Warcraft 4: the RTS comes out? Are they going to downplay the story of WoW and sum it up in a 5 minute cinematic? Or just abandon the core fans who actually like playing RTS games?

But you were never the main character in WC1-3, either. You were the commander, but the story revolved around Arthas/Jaina/Thrall/Sylvanas/Furion/Illidan, as it still does. We're now the foot soldiers fighting alongside the heroes.

 

[Teh_Doomage]

That is a very well written article.

That was the main reason I played WoW for the many years I did, started with Warcraft: Orcs and Humans....Tides of Darknes....Beyond the Dark Portal.....Frozen Throne.....and WoW just kept the story rolling.

Like you mentioned in the article, the players in WoW, would be the little units that you churn out of the barracks while the Lore Characters lead them to victory. WoW is really good at it's story telling. A lot of the players I knew, never read the quest text, never watched the cinematics, they just wanted to do things as fast as possible, and that's the real shame.

 

[Nuke_em_05]

Well said.

Just because most players are unware of or refuse to acknowldege the story unfolding around them, it doesn't mean it isn't happening, or isn't there for those who want it. Stories in games existed long before cinematics.

Being one who started at Orcs and Humans, retcons and the occaisoinal disconnect aside, I love WoW for continuing the story how it has, and for allowing the player to experience the "World" from a different perspective, and get face-to-face (albeit digitally), with the characters and locations from the RTS games.

There is a disconnect for those players who don't play MMOs or RPGs, or the two combined though, and they have been left out of a lot. Yes a "previously..." section would bring them up to speed, but they didn't have a part in it like the WoW players. Then again, an RTS where they repeat everything that happened in WoW, except RTS style... actually, I wouldn't mind that, if done right, but some WoW players might find it redundant.

Anyway, while I liked the genre-hop, I can see where Blizzard might be in an interesting postion regarding the next, if any, RTS in the Warcraft series.

 

[Phokal]

Right, but that's specific for the genre hop that WoW made. For other RPGs looking to make the hop (KOTOR, Final Fantasy), that isn't the case.

Also, would the conflict hold as much meaning, or Arthas be as imposing, if we didn't lead him around through his campaign? I haven't played enough WoW to fully know, but these heroes had 100% screen time in the RTS series. Having an MMO have big, pivotal battles is great; but will I hate Arthas as much if I didn't watch him slowly corrupt over the course of 5-8 hours of screen time over the course of the Human campaign, and then lead his corrupted version for another dozen hours during the Undead campaign? I played for about a couple of weeks during the initial WoW launch, and I never hit a single "big story moment" or had any meaningful dialog that could be considered foreshadowing. Just the simple collect quests, kill these ghosts, etc.

The characters in WoW are good, but Are they stronger because we knew them from the instruction manuals and playtime of Warcraft 1-3? Could you build an MMO-only cast from quest givers and the occasional AI support that would be memorable over the course of, let's say, the ever popular RPG trilogy?

Maybe?

 

[Teh_Doomage]

With WoW, you were more dealing with the aftermath of War3. And how the world during the war shaped the land. They delved more into the Lore with the expansions(Wrath mainly), but if you go to each zone in vanilla WoW, you can see the Lore is there just from a different perspective.

I would say, in my years of playing WoW, the big story moments didn't happen until about the time you get to the Plaguelands, where you can see the aftermath of the War. And of course, just playing all of Wrath, it's extremely lore driven.

 

[Flying Pilgrim]

The reason is not that the MMO can't perform story telling, it's that you can't build off of it in relation to your character.

While most play mechanics in RPGs have been slowly simplifying to a more MMO realtime style, there is one thing that the MMO can never fully duplicate: the main character.

If I'm playing through a game that references the past game, I want to have *substantial* insight on the characters that are mentioned. They should be party members, or in most cases, the main character. When Warcraft IV: the RTS comes out, it will simply not carry the same impact to have the story be: "The Paladins fought back on the beach, into the dark temple!"

You'll think "hey, wait, it wasn't just them. I was there, too. I'm not a paladin! I'm a crazy witchdoctor who was helping his gnome find some glasses and *happened* to save the day" But you can never be referenced, since your character is fluid (even more fluid than the choices made in Mass Effect or KOTOR). It's not just a matter of having the next plot deal with "well, they could have played as good or evil" but player motivations and backstories in MMOs are endless. The plot will have to be entirely static, depicted as you only helped events played out but had no control over them (even if the control is an illusion, or written off as a non-cannon sequel).

KOTOR 3 better be in development. I don't just want to see what happens next, I want to participate with the main characters and control actions; not hear about it 300 years later as some quest giver talks about some ancient war.

Warcraft is a slightly different beast, since you were a nameless general. But I still imagine having more fun directly controlling the heroes, rather than following in their footsteps as a foot-soldier.

Commercially, there is also the issue: I have played and purchased Warcraft 1-3 and WoW, but only got to level 15 or so before stopping. I haven't been playing it (just not different enough from City of Heroes). So, how are they going to bring me back up to speed when Warcraft 4: the RTS comes out? Are they going to downplay the story of WoW and sum it up in a 5 minute cinematic? Or just abandon the core fans who actually like playing RTS games?

But you were never the main character in WC1-3, either. You were the commander, but the story revolved around Arthas/Jaina/Thrall/Sylvanas/Furion/Illidan, as it still does. We're now the foot soldiers fighting alongside the heroes.

I always thought we played as the Hero Units,since we can rez and level up.Plus the Paladin was a Hero Unit in Warcraft 3 and so was the Mage.

 

[Fearzone]

WoW mostly retells what is already there without changing much to existing story lines--I mean not much has happened to the main characters in WoW, they basically just occupy where they left off in the Warcraft series--but the Cataclysm will have to be part of Warcraft canon, no doubt about it.

 

[Zarthek]

Next person who says that WoW isn't Warcraft 4 is getting a face full of that article

Really well written, and it even goes to the side of the RTS people for a bit, the Warcraft universe is one of my favorite's lore wise, and I enjoy seeing it build around me in WoW (admittedly I didn't notice any til' Burning Crusade when I went to Nagrand and met Garrosh, however on reflection there was plenty during vanilla WoW as well) but I get more out of it than almost anyone else I know cause I waste 5 minutes by reading my quest log every time I fill it up.

Although another Warcraft RTS would be fun, moving forward there isn't going to be anything after WoW in the timeline because they just put out a new expansion pack with a returning super-villan, or a brand new one. So if they made a new RTS it would have to be in the past, before the first war, perhaps back when the world was one huge continent, or farther back than that with the titan's ordering of the universe. I'll be honest, I can see Blizzard putting a new Warcraft RTS out in one of those ancient time period.

Re-reading this, I feel like a MASSIVE nerd.

 

[MrSnugglesworth]

At first I was rather mad, but the ending you brought in the people on my spectrum, I.e. the people who don't like MMO's.

 

[Swaki]

i find the problem whit story in mmo's to be that the real game becomes the end game (as this weeks publisher's note goes into, experienced points too) and everything leading up to that is a glorified tutorial, and thus you want to storm true it to get to the juicy part that is raids (in my case, for others it may be the pvp) and spending 1 month more in the "tutorial" reading up on the story seems like a waste of perfectly good raiding time, i know this is my problem and i could just read the damn text, but even if i did that, if i was to start playing wow today and read every single quest i would still miss out on much of the dungeon lore and all but the lvl 80 raid lore.

so unless you feel like spending yet another 6 months just reading and finding vanilla and bc guilds you will miss allot, and theres another problem, warcraft 1-3 though all good games whit allot of replay value, never needed for you to spend 1½ years "finishing" the game and to read the story.

i understand why fans of the rts part of the series are pissed that warcraft IV is wow.

 

[Kojiro ftt]

the games - particularly WoW - are filled with one "go kill twenty wolves" quest after another. That's another popular misconception in itself

Really? Because when I played my free trial, that's all I fucking did. Sure, later it becomes "kill 20 wargs" and then "kill 20 giant wolves", but essential the same.

As far as story goes, I agree that WoW can continue the story. But who really cares one way or another? When Warcraft IV comes out it will be "you are here, the bad guy is there, kill him." Who cares if the story includes WoW plot or not? I sure as hell don't remember much plot from Warcraft I or II.

 

[Nuke_em_05]

Commercially, there is also the issue: I have played and purchased Warcraft 1-3 and WoW, but only got to level 15 or so before stopping. I haven't been playing it (just not different enough from City of Heroes). So, how are they going to bring me back up to speed when Warcraft 4: the RTS comes out? Are they going to downplay the story of WoW and sum it up in a 5 minute cinematic? Or just abandon the core fans who actually like playing RTS games?

Again, there were stories in games before cinematics. Every Warcraft game and expansion has a "prologue" section in the manual that explains what happened in the game previous and the events since. In many of the major plot points in WoW, major characters are with the player. Maiev Shadowsong was there when you killed Illidan. The Blood Knights are involved with Kael'Thas. I bet Tirion will have something to do with Arthas. They could explain using just the cannon characters involved or use lines like "accompanied with a group of heros" or "leading the champions of the Argent Crusade" with those characters. Again, yes, they didn't participate, but they'll know what happened.

I haven't played enough WoW to fully know... I played for about a couple of weeks during the initial WoW launch, and I never hit a single "big story moment" or had any meaningful dialog that could be considered foreshadowing. Just the simple collect quests, kill these ghosts, etc.

I think this is where most of your bias is coming from. WoW has days and weeks of playtime. That's not you play it for days or weeks, eating/sleeping/working in-between, that's the amount of time actually played. Remember in the RTS games the first few missions are "build this base" "capture X point" "gather X resource" "kill X guys" "build X units" "Upgrade X Building" "Use X ability with your hero unit". Those are like the first few levels of WoW, you get some lore and plot, but it's mostly familiarizing yourself with the game, how it works, what to do, and determining your playstyle.

would the conflict hold as much meaning, or Arthas be as imposing, if we didn't lead him around through his campaign? The characters in WoW are good, but Are they stronger because we knew them from the instruction manuals and playtime of Warcraft 1-3? Could you build an MMO-only cast from quest givers and the occasional AI support that would be memorable over the course of, let's say, the ever popular RPG trilogy?

I don't think you're accounting for scope and time here. I could knock out the first three campaigns and expansions of Warcraft in a weekend. I could get a new WoW character to maybe level 20 in the same time.

Popularity? How many played Warcraft RTS games for the campaign? Honestly? I don't know if anyone has a number, but I bet it's not even close to the 11 Million with WoW.

Let's pretend that vanilla had no relevance to the RTS series really, until the 50's and Plaguelands.... in BC you're fighting Illidan, Vashj, Kael'Thas, and their minions, and what they've been doing/plotting, meeting the original orcs, even recruiting the son of Grom Hellscream into the Horde (Horde characters). Kael'Thas tries to summon Kil'Jaeden. There's definite character development in Wrath, by a lot. Tirion, from Vanilla in the plaguelands, re-establishes the Knights of the Silver Hand (remember them? created in WCII, "disbanded" and later mostly wiped out by Arthas in WCIII?), and the Argent Dawn (a group formed to fight the Scourge) to take the fight to Arthas. Garrosh Hellscream (Grom's son), leads the Horde front in Northrend, and tensions build between him and Thrall. Not to mention Arthas comes to harrass you almost every step of the way as you level to 80. You bring a new group into the Horde, the Tanuka. Alliance characters find Muradin Bronzebeard still alive and reunite the three brothers (breifly). In both Wrath and BC, you re-visit a lot of previous battles and such. You even re-trace Arthas' footsteps in an Icecrown quest, experiencing a lot if his transformation first hand.

I'm not mentioning a lot, and may have fudged a few things, but I think I've rambled long enough on this. Also, perspective of an 80 Horde character, haven't leveled an Alliance character that far yet, but keep up on lore and Alliance-side quests with the infowebz.

 

[Byers]

Because the Warcraft series ended the moment Blizzard chose to ignore nearly every major plot point and lore from earlier games for the purpose of adapting the franchise to a MMO gameplay, and in addition making it wholesome family entertainment, filled with comic relief and pop culture references at every turn, as opposed to the dark, brutal, Warhammer-inspired game world of Warcraft 2 and its subsequent expansion.

It has heavily degenerated into something that parents use to babysit their kids, and 13 year old asian girls to giggle over as they dress up their night elf druids in matching seasonal clothing.

It has become, in short, an abomination.

 

[Nuke_em_05]

the games - particularly WoW - are filled with one "go kill twenty wolves" quest after another. That's another popular misconception in itself

Really? Because when I played my free trial, that's all I fucking did. Sure, later it becomes "kill 20 wargs" and then "kill 20 giant wolves", but essential the same.

As far as story goes, I agree that WoW can continue the story. But who really cares one way or another? When Warcraft IV comes out it will be "you are here, the bad guy is there, kill him." Who cares if the story includes WoW plot or not? I sure as hell don't remember much plot from Warcraft I or II.

I think you miss the point. If you care about the story, and you have made it evident that you don't, this article was to explain how WoW is WCIV as far as the story goes.

Generalizing the whole thing on the free trial isn't exactly fair. The first 20 levels of 80 (or even 60 from vanilla) are exposition, like the "Construct this building" "make X units" "Gather X resource" "upgrade X building Y times" "kill X bad guys" missions at the start of an RTS. I know that an RTS is more than just building bases, gathering resources, making units, and killing bad guys, but I don't generalize that as the whole thing of an RTS. Yes, it's the bread and butter, but you must understand it before you can get into the "strategy" part. Same with the early WoW quests, they help you figure out your abilities and how the game mechanics work. Even then, there are more than just those quests, and there's lore in them even.

I always marvel at this though, because, in essence, what game isn't about killing or gathering X things before you can kill/gather bigger things?

 

[John Funk]

Because the Warcraft series ended the moment Blizzard chose to ignore nearly every major plot point and lore from earlier games for the purpose of adapting the franchise to a MMO gameplay, and in addition making it wholesome family entertainment, filled with comic relief and pop culture references at every turn, as opposed to the dark, brutal, Warhammer-inspired game world of Warcraft 2 and its subsequent expansion.

It has heavily degenerated into something that parents use to babysit their kids, and 13 year old asian girls to giggle over as they dress up their night elf druids in matching seasonal clothing.

It has, in short, become an abomination.

I vehemently disagree with pretty much every point you've made here.

"Stop poking me!" "Me not that kind of orc!" "*Fart* He did it! No, he did it!"

WC always had comic relief, and if you don't think there's more than a few dark moments in WoW, you clearly haven't been playing the game very long. I'd wager good money that the majority of the WoW playerbase is 18+, hardly the preteen playerbase you describe.

 

[masher]

It's not that WoW cant do it, but I WANT Warcraft IV.
I want to continue Rexxar and Misha's story, via an RTS.
They released the demo campaign, and I just wish they could finish it.
Plus Warcraft: The Frozen Throne still has wonderful Online multiplayer and it can only get better with a new game.

 

[sturryz]

WoW is not an RTS, i have made my point.