Achievement Whoredomination

[Therumancer]

I stand corrected on the Drakes.

When it comes to Arthas, well I think that sort of defines the problem right there. Arthas is one of the world wide big-bads, indeed the entire current world balance more or less revolves around him. He's epically powerful and BA. He is not the kind of opponent just anyone in the game should be able to walk in and fight, that would make the whole idea into a bloody joke if you had casual players running in and farming THE LICH KING!

[...]

No "Final Boss" is satisfying if he just keels over and dies from trivial effort.

THough I believe we're about to find out tomorrow, I'll say my piece.

First, the Icecrown Citadel raid looks to be on par with Ulduar with respect to size and difficulty. With the extension on raid lockouts, what you'll likely see is a lot of raiding guilds doing a couple bosses a week and extending the raid lockout. This is a method that will be open to a vast majority of people but will still give it an epic feel. This will certainly prevent it from being "farmed".

Furthermore, it will have hard modes. You think you're in a serious raiding guild? Beat those. I know I'm not in one, and as much as I'd love to have those nice proto-drakes, I will probably never get them. That's no concern though, because I still will have a chance to "finish" the current storyline as it were. And honestly, everyone SHOULD have that chance. It's a game, not life.

If you kill the guy as quickly as the game allows you to, then he's being farmed. It just means that you do the fight again and again. That's not something just anyone in the game should be able to do in a game like this.

The way I think about this is that everyone DOES have a chance. They just need to play enough and get good enough at the game. Nobody prevents you from doing so except for you.

Allowing the majority of players to waltz in and kill Arthas without having to jump through tons of hoops and gradually develeop the nessicary skills defeats the entire purpose. Sort of like giving you the final encounter in another game (RPG or twitchy finger) right off the bat and making it so the monster falls down dead easily.

The entire point of a final boss in any game is that it takes a lot of work and mastery of the game to get that far, whether it's an RPG, a shooter, or a platformer. A lot of people who simply don't have the time, or just never have the skills "click" with them don't get that far. Argueing that anyone should be able to kill Arthas is the same as saying that in buying ANY game the player should be handed victory without actually having to play.

Now granted, the nature of an MMORPG means that unlike other games that you could master and defeat in a week, it can depend on skills that take months or even years to develop. MMORPGS are very long term games, and anyone who plays one should be able to understand this.

For the record while I used to be "hardcore" right now my guild is fairly middle of the road. We're not even trying to go head to head with other guilds. We have however universally put a VERY long time into this game, developing our characters, and developing the skills needed to win these fights.

People who talk about "Hard Modes" really don't seem to get it, and probably don't actually know what a hard mode IS for most bosses. In some cases like Mimiron there is literally a button you can push that makes the fight harder. However in most cases "hard mode" is simply a DPS race, like with the Deconstructor, Thorim, or Hodir. Generally speaking anyone who fights these battles as quickly as possible and assembles enough gear to increase their abillity for raiding is going to wind up doing most Hard Modes. In Hodir's case it's simply a matter of doing what you normally do, but having big enough numbers involved on your side that you can kill him before he destroys a chest in the room. With Thorim it's being able to cover the tunnel and arena fast enough to engage while his girl is present. With the Deconstuctor it's about destroying the heart and then dealing with a higher damage rating from his tantrum and more frequent use of abillities.

The idea of a Hard Mode is pretty much for raiders to have something else to work towards once they have beaten a boss. Not really an "alternative" to fighting the boss normally in most cases. In general if your killing the boss and can activate the hard mode, chances are you can beat the hard mode with a bit of practice, if what is designated as "hard mode" is an actual change to the fight rather than a DPS timer.

My point is simply that Arthas is more or less the "Final Boss" of Warcraft lore. Granted Cataclysm will introduce new threats, but the bottom line is he's the end of the storyline and what a lot of people have been working towards since day #1. It is just plain wrong to let people who have not endured the trials and tribulations to even SEE the final boss fight, never mind have a chance to win it.

It's just like any other game, you need to work at it and master it to see the end. If they wind up pretty much just handing the game to you, what's the point of playing?

WoW elitist asshole if I have ever seen one.

You are saying that just because Arthas will be a 5 man that he will take no effort to kill??? You think that we are being "handed" victory for "free"????

Hey idiot, you have to get from level 1 to 80, do several other parts of Ice crown citadel, get decent gear, ect. That isn't being "handed" anything. Your post seems to imply that anything below raid content is easy free emblems. That is hardly the case. 5 man dungeons are difficult for the players who are supposed to be doing them. Before you got any epic gear, just hitting 80, how many times did your groups wipe on Argent confessor Paletress in normal ToC? If you say you have never wiped on that boss then either you are LYING or you got carried by people in full tier 9 gear. Even after getting full epics, she still eats people alive in the heroic mode. Then after getting better epic gear, she will kick your ass in the 10 and 25 man versions. 5 mans, heroics, and raids are are very hard if you do them while at the appropriate gear level. (meaning aren't over-geared) Its about progression and you can do different bosses at different levels but they will alwase be hard to kill for the people meant to be running them.

Arthas will be the biggest most epic 5 man boss in the history of WoW. He will take allot of effort and planning to kill, he will require a dedicated group of 5 people who all know what they are doing. Then there will be a raid to get the real gear wich will be just as hard for 10 people, then one for 25, ect.

Coordinating 5 people is a heck of a lot easier than coordinating 10 or 25, never mind 50. That's why it takes skill and willpower. What's more bosses balanced to 5 man tend to become jokes very rapidly when dealing with people who are fighting with 10 and 25 man raid gear.

Paletress is not all that strong to be honest. See it all depends on what your used to. When I fought her I had already obtained scads of gear from 10 and 25 man Naxx, Malygos, and Sarth. Even though I am with a 10 man guild I DO raid occasionally with some 25 man guilds. At any rate when your buddies are people who can raid heal 10 and 25 people, and take the hits from enemies on that level, even a strong 5 man boss is relatively weak, and you can even ignore parts of the intended strategy. That dungeon is pretty much a "badge run" for a lot of people.

Now yes, I suppose for a lot of players that might be pretty difficult. But understand that Arthas is supposed to be on a whole differant power level than someone like Paletress, fighting him with 5 people just isn't right, and is rapidly going to turn him into a joke.

I see it sort of like the whole thing they did with Kael'Thas Sunstrider. The fight at the end of TK was fearsome and truely epic. You fought his council, animated legendary quality weapons, and him. In a 5 man fight they couldn't do anything even close to that level, and being a 5 man fight sort of ruined his "epic bad guy" cred, especially when the fight before him was so much tougher than he was.


Do not get me wrong I am not saying I have never died or wiped on 5 mans. In the big scheme of things they are just a step on the path though, one of the things you do to prepare yourself in moving up to the raids and stuff. If you stop on the 5 mans that's your choice, but don't cry about the people who don't do this advancing into content you can't access and accomplishing more as far as the world story/lore goes.

Healing 5 mans and raids for example (even though I play a mage) is something entirely differant. Ditto for the level of tanking required, and the amount of DPS you need to consistantly crank out in a more hostile enviroment. In LK for example the first 5 mans were good practice and helped get the gear to move on to the 10 and 25 mans. Though admittedly I did start raiding Naxx and Maly largely using BC gear.

 

[Therumancer]

I stand corrected on the Drakes.

When it comes to Arthas, well I think that sort of defines the problem right there. Arthas is one of the world wide big-bads, indeed the entire current world balance more or less revolves around him. He's epically powerful and BA. He is not the kind of opponent just anyone in the game should be able to walk in and fight, that would make the whole idea into a bloody joke if you had casual players running in and farming THE LICH KING!

[...]

No "Final Boss" is satisfying if he just keels over and dies from trivial effort.

THough I believe we're about to find out tomorrow, I'll say my piece.

First, the Icecrown Citadel raid looks to be on par with Ulduar with respect to size and difficulty. With the extension on raid lockouts, what you'll likely see is a lot of raiding guilds doing a couple bosses a week and extending the raid lockout. This is a method that will be open to a vast majority of people but will still give it an epic feel. This will certainly prevent it from being "farmed".

Furthermore, it will have hard modes. You think you're in a serious raiding guild? Beat those. I know I'm not in one, and as much as I'd love to have those nice proto-drakes, I will probably never get them. That's no concern though, because I still will have a chance to "finish" the current storyline as it were. And honestly, everyone SHOULD have that chance. It's a game, not life.

If you kill the guy as quickly as the game allows you to, then he's being farmed. It just means that you do the fight again and again. That's not something just anyone in the game should be able to do in a game like this.

[...]

It's just like any other game, you need to work at it and master it to see the end. If they wind up pretty much just handing the game to you, what's the point of playing?

So what you're saying is, someone who has leveled to 80, likely playing well over 100 hours or more, earns enough high level loot and is actually able to beat the boss, still doesn't deserve to fight them?

Lets put this in video game terms here. We're playing a game. Most games take 20-30 hours to beat. You could put in 5 hours a week in something like Ulduar and still not finish it, and that's just one raid. I highly doubt that the average person will be able to complete icecrown citadel without putting in about 20 hours of time to it. If that's not enough dedication to complete a video game, than what is?

After that, if they want to beat it over and over again for loot, who cares? I have no doubt that first time was epic enough.

MMORPGs are something else entirely though, it's not like "other" games which are not endless and persistant.

Also I will say that IF you earned level 80 and have the high level loot to be able to fight then by default you'd have to already be a raider. The only thing holding you back would be your skill and that of your guild. Sort of like how in a regular game, you might technically be capable of beating the final boss, but you still need to progress far enough through the game and beat the other bosses and such standing in your way. In Megaman for example you don't just start out fighting Dr. Wily (or whatever they call him) you still need to beat all his minions and other bosses first. Fundementally what people are argueing is that when you boot up a game like that, all of the weapons should fall out of the sky, and you should be able to bonk Wily upside the head and get a "you win" screen.

Chances are if you disagree with me, then you have never obtained the loot or enough practice to be able to fight a serious raid boss, which is why you pretty much want an Arthas pinata to be hung up where anyone can kill him and be "da hero", making the point moot.

If you HAVE put in the time, then chances are you agree with me because you feel your entitled to stuff like that due to all the work you put in. I mean if you've been crawling up the raid tiers, spending hundreds of hours, and enduring a lot of frustration, it really blows chips to have people get an "EZ Pass" to the finale you've been working on for years.

As far as achievements go, I generally see nothing wrong with them. Honestly the proof is actually kind of helpful in figuring out who actually knows how to do what. Though I admit I *DO* sort of have a bug up my butt due to not getting credit for killing pre-nerf Illidan because I did neither the quest or won the loot. However enough people know I did that, and can see other similar achievements (like Archimonde) if they bother to look that it's usually a non-factor. A lot of people feel Archimonde was worse than Illidan to be honest, though I'm not entirely sure I agree.

I guess in the end we're all going to have to agree to disagree.

But still, try and see things from my perspective. Someone called me an "elitist jerk" (well eith a differant word replacing jerk) even though I'm small potatos as far as endgame raiders go, especially nowadays. There is probably some truth to that label, and heck... "we" even have our own website to check WoW information on: http://elitistjerks.com/

... obviously we have learned to take a certain amount of pride in the label.


At any rate,, from my perspective how the heck could I not be one? I mean am I supposed to be happy about putting tons of time into a game and then seeing the entire thing adapted to better cater to less dedicated players? That's kind of unfair when you think about it. I for one think I earned the payoff.

... and also before anyone comments, yet I AM aware of the truely disgusting amount of time that I have put into this game. I am however retired on disabillity which is pretty much when I started really getting 'into' the endgame. I can't comment on others and how they find the time. Whether or not it's 'normal' , 'right' , or 'fair' for some people to have a lot of free time, the bottom line is we have done it, you have not.

If you choose to "have a life" and do other things that is your perrogative, but don't sit there and whine about people raiding heavily and acting superior because you "have a life" (which I hear all the time) and then at the same time turn around and throw a tantrum because someone gets stuff in the game that you don't because of their desicians/sacrifices.

 

[coldfrog]

MMORPGs are something else entirely though, it's not like "other" games which are not endless and persistant.

Also I will say that IF you earned level 80 and have the high level loot to be able to fight then by default you'd have to already be a raider. The only thing holding you back would be your skill and that of your guild. Sort of like how in a regular game, you might technically be capable of beating the final boss, but you still need to progress far enough through the game and beat the other bosses and such standing in your way. In Megaman for example you don't just start out fighting Dr. Wily (or whatever they call him) you still need to beat all his minions and other bosses first. Fundementally what people are argueing is that when you boot up a game like that, all of the weapons should fall out of the sky, and you should be able to bonk Wily upside the head and get a "you win" screen.

Chances are if you disagree with me, then you have never obtained the loot or enough practice to be able to fight a serious raid boss, which is why you pretty much want an Arthas pinata to be hung up where anyone can kill him and be "da hero", making the point moot.

If you HAVE put in the time, then chances are you agree with me because you feel your entitled to stuff like that due to all the work you put in. I mean if you've been crawling up the raid tiers, spending hundreds of hours, and enduring a lot of frustration, it really blows chips to have people get an "EZ Pass" to the finale you've been working on for years.

As far as achievements go, I generally see nothing wrong with them. Honestly the proof is actually kind of helpful in figuring out who actually knows how to do what. Though I admit I *DO* sort of have a bug up my butt due to not getting credit for killing pre-nerf Illidan because I did neither the quest or won the loot. However enough people know I did that, and can see other similar achievements (like Archimonde) if they bother to look that it's usually a non-factor. A lot of people feel Archimonde was worse than Illidan to be honest, though I'm not entirely sure I agree.

I guess in the end we're all going to have to agree to disagree.

But still, try and see things from my perspective. Someone called me an "elitist jerk" (well eith a differant word replacing jerk) even though I'm small potatos as far as endgame raiders go, especially nowadays. There is probably some truth to that label, and heck... "we" even have our own website to check WoW information on: http://elitistjerks.com/

... obviously we have learned to take a certain amount of pride in the label.


At any rate,, from my perspective how the heck could I not be one? I mean am I supposed to be happy about putting tons of time into a game and then seeing the entire thing adapted to better cater to less dedicated players? That's kind of unfair when you think about it. I for one think I earned the payoff.

... and also before anyone comments, yet I AM aware of the truely disgusting amount of time that I have put into this game. I am however retired on disabillity which is pretty much when I started really getting 'into' the endgame. I can't comment on others and how they find the time. Whether or not it's 'normal' , 'right' , or 'fair' for some people to have a lot of free time, the bottom line is we have done it, you have not.

If you choose to "have a life" and do other things that is your perrogative, but don't sit there and whine about people raiding heavily and acting superior because you "have a life" (which I hear all the time) and then at the same time turn around and throw a tantrum because someone gets stuff in the game that you don't because of their desicians/sacrifices.

See, that's where you're wrong, since I do have the gear and the experience and I still disagree. It's a different kind of game, but it's still a game. If you want special honors for being an even more powerful raider, fine. They're giving em to you in droves. Everyone else still needs to be able to finish up the story line. You can have all the raids you want. Besides, Arthas is going to be in those raids anyway, you'll know that he's not really defeated until he's been beat in the raids.

Seriously though, Blizzard is giving plenty of non-critical honors to experienced raiders with the Ulduar titles and the special mounts and so on. If this isn't enough for you to show this stuff off to people, then there's no helping it, since it's all a virtual flaunt-your-goods fest anyway. The only way I'd ever feel cheated is if it was easy to get tier gear or certain achievements/titles without putting in that much effort. It's the difference between content and extra content. Raids, to me, are extra content. Dungeons and storyline are regular content.

Oh yeah, one more thing. You talk about the bosses not being challenging when in raid gear. Well, how many people who fall into this casual category will HAVE raid gear? It will be a challenge for them, no doubt.

 

[Doug]

but do try WoW, i had 2 years of fun whit that game, it even got me laid once.

Wait, what? Do tell... I didn't think the disc could be used like that!

well i met my first love because we where in the same guild and luckily lived 10min from each other, but thats not the story of the getting laid, that was more my incredible charm, i was on a trip to London about a year ago and ran into this drunk chick wearing a horde t-shirt, we talked about our characters and the game AND NOTHING ELSE for an hour before we went back to my room.
also, roll horde, its where the chicks are.

Horde...hmmm.... I can't remember all the races for that one; the Orcs, undead, and Bull-people, right?

 

[Swaki]

but do try WoW, i had 2 years of fun whit that game, it even got me laid once.

Wait, what? Do tell... I didn't think the disc could be used like that!

well i met my first love because we where in the same guild and luckily lived 10min from each other, but thats not the story of the getting laid, that was more my incredible charm, i was on a trip to London about a year ago and ran into this drunk chick wearing a horde t-shirt, we talked about our characters and the game AND NOTHING ELSE for an hour before we went back to my room.
also, roll horde, its where the chicks are.

Horde...hmmm.... I can't remember all the races for that one; the Orcs, undead, taurens,trolls and blood elevs right?

now its right ^^

 

[Azure-Supernova]

I think people who have been saying "casuals" may have their words mixed up. Achievements and trophies, they're not for casuals... Sadly it's one of those things, I love that feeling of acomplishment when i get myself a new Platinum Trophy.

If anything though, they're just an incentive to get casual players more into the experience, as well as something to reward the dedicated players with.

 

[anaximanes_1978]

To me, as if my opinion mattered, it seems that achievements are a "false" reward for doing something that amounts to nothing. That is, like some lab animal, if you jump through the hoop, you get the meaningless cheese puff. The difference being that lab animals are smart enough not to pay for their "achievements". And when I say meaningless, I am implying that, to me, curing cancer is an achievement, but killing some video game boss with 8 other people amounts to, sadly, nothing.

I am a gamer, hardcore, my entire life. I own every video game system ever made, and I do enjoy gaming. But, I fully believe that achievements on any game NEVER define a gamer, or how good you are at anything in games (especially MMO's). And the only achievements that matter in the world are ones that effect other people in positive ways in the REAL world. That said, if your self esteem is low or you compulsively/habitually need a reward of some kind to feel a shred of accomplishment, then I respect your decision, but I also pity you at the same time. Game on!

 

[camazotz]

Is it not very insulting to claim that this guy has no life?
For all we know, he just found a way to quickly beat all of the achivements and dedicated a small portion of his life to doing just that.

Odd, yes, but so is collecting stamps and such.

Er.

There's really no quick way to beat some of these. For example, the 100 mounts one requires you to get some of the rare mounts at ~1% drop rate off of a certain boss.

It's possible that this man has the luck of the devil, but let's be real here. That, plus topping the arena charts in not one but three brackets takes insane effort on its own.

Yeah, I couldn't accomplish 1/100th of the achievements and still remain employed 40 hours a week, sleep 8 hours a day, or maintain my marriage. Although ironically my wife is a bigger WoWhead than I am, does not work, and has horrible sleep habits, so maybe she'll get close to achieving them....hmmm, I think I need to suggest she vary her hobbies a bit....