Afghanistan, your views.

[Redlin5_v1legacy]

Speaking as a Canadian with relatives of friends fighting in Afghanistan, I feel this war of terror has many, many other political reasons for it than 9/11. I'm not comfortable about the fact that Canadians are fighting and dying in a land they didn't attack nor were attacked by.

I think that the peace keeping efforts are not going to work as the enemy is such a mobile threat. Closer co-operation between local militias and the armed forces are needed since soon the Western World will be withdrawing. I am very upset that this war involves the daily killings of civilians by bombings and that terrorists can melt into a population that is scared what will happen to them if they tell foreign forces they are there.

*sigh*

I hate war. War history is fun but real life fighting is totally different. Is there no way to negotiate? Do we really have to come out guns a'blazing?

The only problem is that they dont want to fight after major world power forces leave. They usually crumble,a nd you cant teach them to fihgt on their own, when they get used to fighting with powers like the UK, US, Canada, France (maybe? I htink the pulled out, but i might be wrong there). Once those forces leave, the local "armed forces" crumble.

Well I know I am never going to support perpetual occupation. I don't think Canadians are fighting for democracy, they are fighting to restore normalcy for the civilians. Once we're gone they're going to have to fight their own battles. If they surrender government/power to the terrorists, that is their own choice. We don't have any right to impose a style of government on a people. If they don't want Western style politics there, the people will naturally cease to resist provided they aren't getting slaughtered indiscriminately.

I don't understand why we're even there anymore. Well, other than that the US pulled out early to fight in Iraq and left the place in shambles. I feel we as a country were pressured into contributing. The terrorists are probably going to win in the end though. Pressure from anti-war votes at home will topple governments wanting to continue the slaughter and the new government will pull them out. The organizations should have been hunted down and destroyed completely back in 2001.

Just get us out of there now. Its up to the locals to decide who they want in charge.

 

[Redlin5_v1legacy]

I need to see how many US soldiers are actually in Canada now. We've never been at war (ignoring 1812 of course) but I can't shake the feeling that there might be US troops on our front lawn...

You dicks helped burned down the White House! You deserve whatever troops are there! We obviously can't trust you damn shifty Canadians.

PS - I'm kidding, if you can't tell.

You assholes tried to invade and take over our country! You burned down buildings first (look it up) during the war. We obviously can't trust you damn Yankees. You might try stealing our beavers again!

PS - I'm kidding too, if you can't tell.

 

[emeraldrafael]

Speaking as a Canadian with relatives of friends fighting in Afghanistan, I feel this war of terror has many, many other political reasons for it than 9/11. I'm not comfortable about the fact that Canadians are fighting and dying in a land they didn't attack nor were attacked by.

I think that the peace keeping efforts are not going to work as the enemy is such a mobile threat. Closer co-operation between local militias and the armed forces are needed since soon the Western World will be withdrawing. I am very upset that this war involves the daily killings of civilians by bombings and that terrorists can melt into a population that is scared what will happen to them if they tell foreign forces they are there.

*sigh*

I hate war. War history is fun but real life fighting is totally different. Is there no way to negotiate? Do we really have to come out guns a'blazing?

The only problem is that they dont want to fight after major world power forces leave. They usually crumble,a nd you cant teach them to fihgt on their own, when they get used to fighting with powers like the UK, US, Canada, France (maybe? I htink the pulled out, but i might be wrong there). Once those forces leave, the local "armed forces" crumble.

Well I know I am never going to support perpetual occupation. I don't think Canadians are fighting for democracy, they are fighting to restore normalcy for the civilians. Once we're gone they're going to have to fight their own battles. If they surrender government/power to the terrorists, that is their own choice. We don't have any right to impose a style of government on a people. If they don't want Western style politics there, the people will naturally cease to resist provided they aren't getting slaughtered indiscriminately.

I don't understand why we're even there anymore. Well, other than that the US pulled out early to fight in Iraq and left the place in shambles. I feel we as a country were pressured into contributing. The terrorists are probably going to win in the end though. Pressure from anti-war votes at home will topple governments wanting to continue the slaughter and the new government will pull them out. The organizations should have been hunted down and destroyed completely back in 2001.

Just get us out of there now. Its up to the locals to decide who they want in charge.

There really is no reason. really only the US wants to be there, to prove they're right. Dont get me wrong I (an american citizen) appreciate the help other countries give, but in reality, its not your war. I mean, you quote 9/11 and 2001 but those are American dates mor ethen anyhting else. So yeah, i dont get why other countries other then the US are there.

 

[Kingsman]

newspapers? hahahhaha christ, who owns the papers son? as if thats a good way to try and gather impartial information.

Dare I ask where you get your impartial information from?

 

[Agayek]

You assholes tried to invade and take over our country! You burned down buildings first (look it up) during the war. We obviously can't trust you damn Yankees. You might try stealing our beavers again!

PS - I'm kidding too, if you can't tell.

Fair, but you guys have the Elite Anti-Terrorist Beaver Assault Legion and Liquidation Squad, or EATBALLS. We had to get our best shots in first, before they came into play.

 

[Redlin5_v1legacy]

SNIP

War + Politics = Attempting to justify the deaths of young people

I'm not even a very politically active person but if Canada extends its Afghanistan mission again, I will take to the streets.

[sub]I quoted 9/11 because I have extended family who were effected and 2001 because that is when Afghanistan was invaded. America should have finished stabilizing Afghanistan before moving on to Iraq (which is in itself another discussion altogether).[/sub]

[sub][sub]Bah, enough of this thread. I'm already getting angry for unrelated reasons, I don't need this brewing in my head too.[/sub][/sub]

 

[Raziel_Likes_Souls]

A guerilla war wouldn't work. The Taliban have had years of experience of that style. Some of them have been fighting since the Russians tried invading back in the '80s. Their tactic revolves around ambushing our soldiers and then retreating before we can mount a successful counter attack. They use the peoples fear against us, none of them want to talk or co-operate unless they feel safe, that they won't be reprimanded by the Taliban.

We're fighting a completely different style of war there. With no disrespect intended, its much like that of the Vietnam war, we have superior technology and firepower, yet it's not paying off. We're fighting them on their home turf.

I was thinking that we were going for a slightly less successful version of what Russia was trying to do, and that we might need to switch up our tactics a bit. But I have no idea how we could do that.

 

[Nexus4]

BUt if we had just plugged a bullet into Suddam at the time, we could have concentrated on Afghanistan and probably be doen with this now.

The reason America supposedly invaded Afghanistan was to get rid of Al Qaeda and hunt for Saddam Hussein. It was a response to the 9/11 attacks, which didn't even happen during George H.W. Bush's term.

Also, who the bloody heck is Suddam?

No, We lost Vietnam because johnson was too much a of a pussy to commit. We could end this just the same as we could have ended Vietnam in about 30 days. Just Firebomb and napalm the shit out of both places for a good 3 months, and that war would have been done in a summer's time. Same for this war. Destroy the enemy, and all around it, and you won, for sheer logic that there is no one left to fight.

And ebfore you say thats terrible, remember this. The only countries that use the geneva convention, care about a good image, and dont want to commit a crime against humanity, are the ones like the US, UK, and other developed countries. You dont see the Taliban obeying the Geneva Convention and you didnt see Hitler listening either.

Do you have any idea how many civilians died in Afghanistan due to bombings and attacks by the American Coalition forces and the U.S. Army? By recklessly bombing every single supposed insurgent hideout without maximum precision, you're putting the lives of thousands of civilians living in the area at risk. What was the point of the invasion of Afghanistan, to stop devastation and destruction or to commit it?

Does it matter? We're fighting a conventional war against an unconventional enemy. Look, i get it. We have to be humane because we have to be better then the opnes we're fighting against. But if that were the case, we'd still be fighting with sticks. Do you really think the Taliban are going to stop and say, "wow, they're being really good sports about this, perhaps we should let by gone be by gones"?

No, they're not. As horrible as it is to say, we're fighting a gentleman's war when we need to fight like animals. We are fighting TERROR as an idea, so we must use Terror in return. there is no fighitng on even ground in a war like this. it is simply who can bury all of the others first.

EDIT: Suddam is supposed ot be Saddam. I just spelled it as it sounded, and i've seen it spelled that way a few times so I thought thats how it was spelled. And while 9/11 didnt happen during Bush Sr.'s term, he did have the chance to kill saddam in the gulf war, but decided that would be too much. at the time, it was a good idea, in retrospect, its debatable.

Whilst fighting like animals may lead to victory, you will lose the support of the citizens within Afghanistan. Since the Taliban fight using guerilla tactics this creates a strategic situation in their favor because they have the complete support of the citizens. People will join the Taliban, not because they share beliefs, but because they want revenge for indiscriminate attacks. Not to mention that this action will likely be condemned by the entire U.N. and the other Middle Eastern nations. America's allies will withdraw because due to the lack of morality and it's likely to expel the US from the U.N. You lose the support of your allies then supplies and trading ceases with the USA, a boycott due to an annihilation strategy. The USA will likely see its economy crumble and be unable to support an ongoing war, coupled with a newfound hostility from the allies, America will be defeated. This strategy will result in a 'Pyhrric Victory' for the Taliban. So unless you want to see your nation abandoned and defeated, I could not suggest fighting using an attrition-annihilation based strategy.

 

[Redlin5_v1legacy]

You assholes tried to invade and take over our country! You burned down buildings first (look it up) during the war. We obviously can't trust you damn Yankees. You might try stealing our beavers again!

PS - I'm kidding too, if you can't tell.

Fair, but you guys have the Elite Anti-Terrorist Beaver Assault Legion and Liquidation Squad, or EATBALLS. We had to get our best shots in first, before they came into play.

Preemptive striking a completely neutral country that had no desire to fight in the south? Yes, that sounds like fun. And the EATBALLS was in reserve for use against the Russians in the north, who were looking at our buffalo with greedy eyes. We owe you one for buying Alaska and kicking them off the continent fifty years later. It looked like it was going to get ugly with them deploying Big Evil Assault Rabbits (BEAR) against our beaver militia.

Why did you attack us? We were the only force blocking the BEAR conquest of North America!

Fortunately for the free world, we repelled you Yankees and you decided to end the war before the Russians could take advantage of our distraction. Our DEER forces (introduced in 1841) were still in development. Never forget though, we could all be speaking Russian right now

 

[Ch@Z]

Get them out. How do they expect to win the war anyway? Kill all the terrorists?

I think they should bring back draft cards so people will care more about the war.
In this election, no one seems to be talking about the war. The issues are all silly.

 

[lionheart_1]

You're basing this all on the fact that people care what happens after we leave. I cna say for a fact the US doesnt give two shits what happens when we leave, otherwise we'd have done something abit more forceful in Korea or Vietnam. This is a war (for the us at least), to give the message that we dont take shit from anybody, and that we are never wrong. If we (the us) didnt think the terrorists would take a victory from this and be emboldened, we'd pull out and say fuck it, leaving an IOU stamped tank tread as we left. Also, if we had more then Isreal there as a "democratic" nation, we wouldnt care as much either.

Its a war for our glory, one of those things that people always make jokes against the US about saying that when they need to feel good, they launch war against a small country. Besides that, we're waging war on an idea, not a place or person. and you cant fight an idea until you kill everyone who thinks differently then you, ebcause what is yellow to one man is gold to another.

What is I was trying to explain is that there are other things that are making this conflict more complicated militarily for our troops, other than the fact that we are also trying to confront an ideology (I'm an Australian, and we currently have troops in Uruzgan province). Regardless of how people care about the state of Afghanistan after we leave, ignoring these problems won't make it easier in the short- to medium-term.

Keep in mind the fact that the West was once involved in Afghanistan in the 80's, and eventually stopped caring about the place after the Soviets left. Subsequently, events have transpired to brings us back there under rather deplorable circumstances.

 

[emeraldrafael]

SNIP

Whilst fighting like animals may lead to victory, you will lose the support of the citizens within Afghanistan. Since the Taliban fight using guerilla tactics this creates a strategic situation in their favor because they have the complete support of the citizens. People will join the Taliban, not because they share beliefs, but because they want revenge for indiscriminate attacks. Not to mention that this action will likely be condemned by the entire U.N. and the other Middle Eastern nations. America's allies will withdraw because due to the lack of morality and it's likely to expel the US from the U.N. You lose the support of your allies then supplies and trading ceases with the USA, a boycott due to an annihilation strategy. The USA will likely see its economy crumble and be unable to support an ongoing war, coupled with a newfound hostility from the allies, America will be defeated. This strategy will result in a 'Pyhrric Victory' for the Taliban. So unless you want to see your nation abandoned and defeated, I could not suggest fighting using an attrition-annihilation based strategy.

Haha, you're funny. The economy is already crumbling, and doing so would leave too many countries in debt. Do you really think America will pay for their debts if they're forced out of the UN? Thats.... thats just hilarious.

Besides that, I know that America can never do this. thats why its called an OPINION. Its not like my, your, or anyone else here's word is law. But right now, its the best option that can happen.

besides, give it time. Let the Taliban continue thier actions and we'll see how loose the UN gets.

 

[emeraldrafael]

You're basing this all on the fact that people care what happens after we leave. I cna say for a fact the US doesnt give two shits what happens when we leave, otherwise we'd have done something abit more forceful in Korea or Vietnam. This is a war (for the us at least), to give the message that we dont take shit from anybody, and that we are never wrong. If we (the us) didnt think the terrorists would take a victory from this and be emboldened, we'd pull out and say fuck it, leaving an IOU stamped tank tread as we left. Also, if we had more then Isreal there as a "democratic" nation, we wouldnt care as much either.

Its a war for our glory, one of those things that people always make jokes against the US about saying that when they need to feel good, they launch war against a small country. Besides that, we're waging war on an idea, not a place or person. and you cant fight an idea until you kill everyone who thinks differently then you, ebcause what is yellow to one man is gold to another.

What is I was trying to explain is that there are other things that are making this conflict more complicated militarily for our troops, other than the fact that we are also trying to confront an ideology (I'm an Australian, and we currently have troops in Uruzgan province). Regardless of how people care about the state of Afghanistan after we leave, ignoring these problems won't make it easier in the short- to medium-term.

Keep in mind the fact that the West was once involved in Afghanistan in the 80's, and eventually stopped caring about the place after the Soviets left. Subsequently, events have transpired to brings us back there under rather deplorable circumstances.

Like i siad, this is a feel good victory. America wants certain people dead, and once its done they'll put as little effort into to stablizing the country and making it a democracy so we have one more democratic country to trade with in hopes of silencing the nagging but true word in the back of our ears from the Communistic China saying how we are dependant on them for trade and only them.

 

[MikailCaboose]

I think if the republican party had had the balls when Bush Sr. was in office, and we went at it more with desert storm, this mess wouldnt be happening at the moment.

Wouldn't have worked. Afghanistan is much, much more mountainous. The only reason why desert storm worked so well is that with the relatively flat terrain we could basically steamroll our way to our target with the Iraqis having virtually nowhere to run to. In Afghanistan, the Taliban can easily evade an all-out offensive in the mountains. Desert Storm tactics would be suicidal.

 

[Obrien Xp]

In my honest opinion, I think it would be best that we stay until the end of 2011/2012 with a combat role. (atm this is basically the stance of the Canadian Government last I heard)

In the best situation Pakistan will be able to keep the Taliban under some level of control within their own borders or at least allow military operations within Pakistani territory.

After 2011 hopefully most troops would be able to pull out of Afghanistan and the Afghan forces would be able to maintain control. In order to do this they need more experience, training, and probably equipment.

If I were supreme commander of all ISAF forces and had no restrictions...

I would maintain a few bases throughout the country mainly for air support and minor ground operations. I would continue air campaigns, mostly bombing known enemy hideouts (not villages, though war is war and this is always an issue), and providing chopper assistance (combat and transport). As well as using Special Operations Units when needed. Also I would have ISAF assist in the training of the Afghan forces so they would be able to wage the land war for the most part.

If you want my view on justification then that would have to be in a different thread. This is only my how to handle the current situation views.

 

[emeraldrafael]

I think if the republican party had had the balls when Bush Sr. was in office, and we went at it more with desert storm, this mess wouldnt be happening at the moment.

Wouldn't have worked. Afghanistan is much, much more mountainous. The only reason why desert storm worked so well is that with the relatively flat terrain we could basically steamroll our way to our target with the Iraqis having virtually nowhere to run to. In Afghanistan, the Taliban can easily evade an all-out offensive in the mountains. Desert Storm tactics would be suicidal.

No. If we had stopped saddam during desert storm,w e wouldnt have had the Iraqi nation mess we had to go contend with and probably could have been close to done with afghanistan.

 

[Agayek]

Preemptive striking a completely neutral country that had no desire to fight in the south? Yes, that sounds like fun. And the EATBALLS was in reserve for use against the Russians in the north, who were looking at our buffalo with greedy eyes. We owe you one for buying Alaska and kicking them off the continent fifty years later. It looked like it was going to get ugly with them deploying Big Evil Assault Rabbits (BEAR) against our beaver militia.

Why did you attack us? We were the only force blocking the BEAR conquest of North America!

Fortunately for the free world, we repelled you Yankees and you decided to end the war before the Russians could take advantage of our distraction. Our DEER forces (introduced in 1841) were still in development. Never forget though, we could all be speaking Russian right now

Just because you had no intention of attacking us didn't mean you weren't going to change your mind!

Besides, I'm sure the BEARs weren't that bad. I mean Dudley Do-Right managed to hold them off for years.

 

[teebeeohh]

Snip all this

I originate from Bosnia and Herzegovina. You know, that country in which the US and other 1st world countries had stations, yet didn't do shit to prevent the massacres of all ethnicities living there? Yeah, I originate from that hell-hole.


I live in Slovenia. It's a country full of crooked politicians and tycoons who own large portions of the country, and total negligence for everything. This country is in a far worse state than the US, and I can safely say that it's absolute shit at the moment.

Guantánamo Bay is a detainment facility of the United States located in Cuba. The facility is operated by Joint Task Force Guantánamo of the United States government since 2002 in Guantánamo Bay Naval Base, which is on the shore of Guantánamo Bay.[1]

That's my response to your point about Guantanamo Bay.

I don't have any fullproof ideas that would work, but I can guarantee that the countries would be better off with only minor interventions. The actual presence of troops in those countries and all the killings, make more and more people join or want to join the extremists.

I criticise anything and everything. I criticise the US for its hypocrisy in many situations, as well as I criticise the Sha'ria Law for its backward views. There is literally no country, movement or religion that I haven't criticised, and it is my choice, my freedom of speech and my responsibility as a logical-thinking human being to do so.

As I said, its not on American soil, and is in a nation where Communism is still in reign. So we dont hav eto have hte same standards. Hell the people native to the land its located in get the same shit treatment from their own governemnt. besides, Gitmo isnt a normal jail. How would you treat these people after what they did? Warm Milk and Cookies? Perhaps a kiss good night and a bed time story?

Also, suggest anything. no plan is full proof. Saying you have nothing full proof is saying you have no idea. At least when you suggest something half baked, it shows some effort into it. because there is no full proof plan.

Anyway, I'm not going to comment on your country. For two reasons, Partly, I dont have the extensive research on nations like yours as I would like. And partly because anytime someone from superpowers of the world does make a comment, it gets turned on them too easily because of a different livings view.

But I will say this. Would you be happy with the US interfeering with your nation's probelms now? I doubt so. You'd ***** piss and moan that we did. So dont tell me about what powers like the US did and did not do.

and what exactly did those guys do? Many, if not most of the people in Guantanamo didn't do shit and basically got locked up for life on suspicion

a few other things:
Afghanistan is NOT in the middle East
Communism is NOT a valid system to run a country but merely a Theory that can never work, the System that was implemented in quite a lot of countries is called Socialism and may in itself even be democratic

on topic: just do it like true abstinence loving christians and pull out, nobody can win in Afghanistan, they would rather kill each other than be forced to live in peace by a foreign aggressor. BTW does in anybody else see the irony in the fact that Russia is going to sell you guys helicopters for Afghanistan?

 

[Redlin5_v1legacy]

Preemptive striking a completely neutral country that had no desire to fight in the south? Yes, that sounds like fun. And the EATBALLS was in reserve for use against the Russians in the north, who were looking at our buffalo with greedy eyes. We owe you one for buying Alaska and kicking them off the continent fifty years later. It looked like it was going to get ugly with them deploying Big Evil Assault Rabbits (BEAR) against our beaver militia.

Why did you attack us? We were the only force blocking the BEAR conquest of North America!

Fortunately for the free world, we repelled you Yankees and you decided to end the war before the Russians could take advantage of our distraction. Our DEER forces (introduced in 1841) were still in development. Never forget though, we could all be speaking Russian right now

Just because you had no intention of attacking us didn't mean you weren't going to change your mind!

Besides, I'm sure the BEARs weren't that bad. I mean Dudley Do-Right managed to hold them off for years.

Dudley Do-Right didn't have to endure these:

Monty Python was later sued for using one in their movie. These used to roam free in the north :O

 

[maturin]

maybe resort to geurilla warefare.

...

Okay, I really can't not say something. This is a statement of powerful idiocy. It's beautiful, in a way. And funny to imagine.