Aliens Didn't Ruin a Franchise, It Established One
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
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THANK YOU, Mr. Sterling. This is the Escapist Magazine, not the Blowhard-Wants-To-Make-Only-One-Style-Of-Sci-fi-Filmmaking-Respectable magazine. Aliens is every bit as untouchable a cornerstone as the original, if for different reasons, and it made me sick to see it attacked on the front page of this website in particular. These days it almost seems like knocking James Cameron films is becoming trendy - shows what kind of historical ingratitude people have when they want to sound intelligent or edgy about something. If ANY website should have the insight to talk about the strength of his themes across his films, it's this one - thank god you're on board. Peace!
Jimothy Sterling said:
One of the biggest weaknesses the Marines had beside leadership was that they went into the colony thinking it was all a bunch of BS. A bug hunt as they say, that there wasn't really an enemy there. They blew off Ripleys advice and knowledge. When they really ran into the Xenomorph nest they were overwhelmed mentally by the truth. They were not prepared to face the enemy and they really didn't know what it was capable of. Gorman hamstrung them by being a douche but Apone should have overridden his orders and pulled back to wait for reinforcement once they discovered the magnitude of the threat they faced. I think Burke had WY pull some strings to get a squad with a weak LT deployed so that he could control him and get the Xenomorphs as a bioweapon. A smart commander doesent just throw away his men on a hopeless battle, they should have lifted off and waited in orbit until a larger force could have been dispatched. They knew that the aliens reproduced from people so they could have guessed how many there were based on the number of colonists and the lack of bodies from the fighting.
People have some hysterically inaccurate ideas of how people actually function under extreme stress, let alone whilst undergoing stark, atavistic terror.
The marines are portrayed in a pretty accurate way in the film, given that they're meant to be analagous to Vietnam war era US troops, a time when the officer corps was dimly regarded and discipline was low.
Gaming does not portray realistic situations. COD is not a simulation. Hell, Arma III isn't a simulation of anything but about 0.05% of a soldier's life. But no one wants to play a press-ups and guard duty simulator. Well, except for those that play America's Army.
The marines are portrayed in a pretty accurate way in the film, given that they're meant to be analagous to Vietnam war era US troops, a time when the officer corps was dimly regarded and discipline was low.
Gaming does not portray realistic situations. COD is not a simulation. Hell, Arma III isn't a simulation of anything but about 0.05% of a soldier's life. But no one wants to play a press-ups and guard duty simulator. Well, except for those that play America's Army.
As for characters, who was that memorable from Alien apart from Ripley? In Aliens, a lot of the characters may be cliche marines, but they are memorable, Hicks, Hudson and Vasquez.
I think I see where Schuyler J. Dievendorf comes from. I'm of the opinion that Aliens suffers from the same problem as Fight Club does (among others), where popular opinion fixates on superficial elements, and fail to grasp the actual point of the movie.
In this I agree with Jim, the point of Aliens was how ineffectual the macho-posturing was. Just as the point of Fight Club was how utterly wrong and repulsive Tyler Durden's worldview was, yet popular opinion seems to fixate on how "cool" the Fight Club philosophy is.
Another movie I recall was misunderstood in this sense was the first Predator. In the director's commentary, John McTiernan commented sadly how the scene where the soldiers empty their weapons into the jungle was totally misunderstood. His point was to show macho military types firing ineffectually into nothing, making a point about the futility of their excessive-violence-centric approach. It was nearly a joke, as they fire desperately into nothing. McTiernan then sadly found out that many other movies began aping that scene, but in those cases there was actually people before the wildly shooting soldiers, getting killed.
But I guess this is inevitable to a certain degree. Any sort of nuance in any medium is bound to fly over the head of a lot of people, and if those people reach a certain critical mass, their interpretation will most certainly become the standard interpretation.
Isn't this why Movie Defense Force exists, by the way? To offer an alternate viewpoint on movies that the majority have decided are irredeemable?
P.S: Its a pet peeve of mine but... You people realize that "Xenomorph" literally means "Alien", right? It's not a specific name for the creature. It was just one of the characters in Aliens trying to sound smart by using a more scientifically-sounding term. Which, ironically seeing the discussion at hand, people latched on and began using as if it actually meant something else.
In this I agree with Jim, the point of Aliens was how ineffectual the macho-posturing was. Just as the point of Fight Club was how utterly wrong and repulsive Tyler Durden's worldview was, yet popular opinion seems to fixate on how "cool" the Fight Club philosophy is.
Another movie I recall was misunderstood in this sense was the first Predator. In the director's commentary, John McTiernan commented sadly how the scene where the soldiers empty their weapons into the jungle was totally misunderstood. His point was to show macho military types firing ineffectually into nothing, making a point about the futility of their excessive-violence-centric approach. It was nearly a joke, as they fire desperately into nothing. McTiernan then sadly found out that many other movies began aping that scene, but in those cases there was actually people before the wildly shooting soldiers, getting killed.
But I guess this is inevitable to a certain degree. Any sort of nuance in any medium is bound to fly over the head of a lot of people, and if those people reach a certain critical mass, their interpretation will most certainly become the standard interpretation.
Isn't this why Movie Defense Force exists, by the way? To offer an alternate viewpoint on movies that the majority have decided are irredeemable?
P.S: Its a pet peeve of mine but... You people realize that "Xenomorph" literally means "Alien", right? It's not a specific name for the creature. It was just one of the characters in Aliens trying to sound smart by using a more scientifically-sounding term. Which, ironically seeing the discussion at hand, people latched on and began using as if it actually meant something else.
Yeah, Aliens was a great action movie, no doubt about it. You're probably also right that it actually established the "franchise", I'm pretty sure we wouldn't still see Alien content if that film hadn't been there.
However, it does seem to me like game developers in particular have just looked at the second action flick far too much, instead of the horror roots.
While the creatures in Aliens were still stealthy killers, they often just become cannon fodder in the games with numbers making the difference (sort of like the zerg). Even to the point where they're morphed into other "gamey" forms like spitters or dinosaur like charging dudes etc.
That IS demystification in my opinion. It's not the fault of Aliens, but of milking the action part of the series too much.
Btw, turning people into eggs would've actually been pretty dang scary
However, it does seem to me like game developers in particular have just looked at the second action flick far too much, instead of the horror roots.
While the creatures in Aliens were still stealthy killers, they often just become cannon fodder in the games with numbers making the difference (sort of like the zerg). Even to the point where they're morphed into other "gamey" forms like spitters or dinosaur like charging dudes etc.
That IS demystification in my opinion. It's not the fault of Aliens, but of milking the action part of the series too much.
Btw, turning people into eggs would've actually been pretty dang scary
Everyone?SonOfVoorhees said:
OT: Jim, your point about the originally cut 'cocoon' scene from Alien, is the same reason why I dislike how they handled the Alien in Aliens. In the first movie Brett and Dallas don't get killed, they get taken alive. And you don't know why, but you're pretty sure it ain't gonna be nice. It left their horrofic fate to the audience's imagination. By showing what happens to them it sorta kills that, as well as the pacing of the movie -- That scene was awkwardly placed, man.
And this is what happened in Aliens; It exposed the Alien, showing it to be nothing more than a giant ant. I like that Aliens choose a different direction, I just don't like the direction it choose.
Conclusion: The Director's Cut/Special Edition of both Alien and Aliens sucks.
I know what it means. However, it now means the species name when talking about Aliens. It is far from the first time a word has been appropriated for an alternate use.Oskuro said:
Well, this is odd, an in-Escapist argument and it's not No Right Answer. I think I'll just go on record by saying that I dig the Alien films.
Totally is, it got re-appropriated. It's like arguing that Predator literally means "a creature that hunts prey" and isn't the name for that specific creature. Also, Xenomorph means Alien Changer or something not just Alien, the morph part is relevant.Oskuro said:
And I just realised I'm the third person to point this out.
OT: Aliens answers the old horror criticism "Yeah, but it'd turn out differently if the characters had a gun/the army with them" and says "Not really"
Not inaccurate, I meant that they responded to the usual criticism by showing a scenario where fully arming the protagonists still doesn't make them stronger or more powerful than the alien/monster/serial killer. And keeps it semi-believable.Zykon TheLich said:
When I read the first article, I did have a feeling Jim might be on the same page as me in terms of reaction. And even though Aliens is also my favourite movie (or at least the movie that makes me love movies) I didn't take exception with the subject matter. Part of loving something is recognising it's flaws and accepting them. My problem with the article is how it took the wrong approach to what could be a completely valid argument. (If framed a little less sensationally) It felt like petty, mis informed gripes that are based off the attitude of a disaffected teenager hating on his Dad's Lep Zepplin albums. I really took exception to the Cameron bashing. There was a time before Titanic when he was regarded as a master of the craft and an outlaw genius. It's akin to slating The Empire Strikes Back, because of Jar Jar Binks. And worst of all, character assassination of the cast and crew has always been the lowest form of film criticism. I would love a shot at making the argument for why Aliens is a mis-stepped movie but I would give that argument the attention it deserves and based off a knowledge of cinema and an appreciation of the time it was made. I made a big long post in the comments of the other article with my full views but I am really happy to see Jim step up and offer a intelligent rebuttal of an article that was pretty shoddily put together because (It seems to me) someone at the escapist said "We are doing an Aliens thing, want to write an article about it?" and the writer wanted click bait and for theirs to stand out so he took the tabloid approach. I think it's terrible that someone waste so wonderful an opportunity to have a public platform to criticise such a landmark film and do it so sloppily. That's what annoys me most. Very happy to see the staff not afraid to disagree with each other. Intelligent disagreements are always a good thing.
Sterling work, as always, Jim!Jimothy Sterling said:
I'm interested to see that no-one has yet brought up what I thought was a commonly-accepted analysis of Aliens - that "marines-versus-xenomorphs" is an allegory for the Vietnam War...
There are numerous parallels or references throughout the movie, but the biggest is that the "superior military power" finds itself floundering against a technologically inferior, but numerically superior and very, very determined enemy.
Oh, yeah, I'm not saying it was some ridiculous farce or anything, one of the reasons I can actually stomach discussing Alien lore is that the films do feel very believable. I was pointing to horror films in general, although I must add superior numbers count for a lot. 20-1 odds aren't great no matter who you are or what you're facing ( Kittens vs Godzilla notwithstanding).CaptainMarvelous said:
My general feeling on the matter is that it wasn't a foregone conclusion, the Aliens aren't unstoppable, it might have also very believably turned out differently had the Marines not made so many poor decisions. So maybe not a farce, but certainly a botched mission. The marines are human and we humans vary in the quality of our work. Different squad, different day and all that...
Really? I remember Hicks saying Wierzbowski and Crowe are down directly after Frost's ammo bag explosion, and the marines didn't include him in the old "The Sarge and Deitrich ain't dead".Tuesday Night Fever said:
[EDIT: Wasn't it Wierzbowski that Hicks went to shake after the explosion, shouting his name while he did so?]
I'd say Weirzbowski and Crowe, as well as maybe even Apone, might have come through, 2 marines instead of 4 in one go and not having just suffered a large explosion, they might well have been more able to cover each other. Hell, Drake might have survived if Apone had been around to stop him being such a kill crazy fucker. Then I suppose they might have thought they could take the aliens and got swamped by all 200 of them instead of trying to pull out. I'd say either interpretation is valid though, it's a piece of fiction.
I know the responses to this are stacking up, but...Oskuro said:
"Xeno-" as a prefix means "strange", "foreign" or "alien" (in the context of something unknown or unfamiliar and with a small "a")
"morph" means "form" or "shape"
In the movie, it really is just Gorman trying to make himself sound clever, but the term has stuck because it's a handy label, and avoids confusion with other "aliens".
My mum is convinced this is the case. But...it wasn't so much "the corporation" as seemingly just Burke himself. And Burke was going in there with them. Seems unwise on his part.008Zulu said:
Is it? Maybe it's the official technical term for all weird looking aliens that officer types use. Was never made clear in the film.DocZombie said: