Alyx Vance, supposedly one of the most developed characters in video games, is bullshit
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Its more to do with the fact she has realistic facial reactions and animations and ins't just dressed sluttily with big knockers, shes an able fighter that has a back-stroy and personality
No, Alyx was just a pathetic case of characterisation, like most of the characters in Half-Life 2.
I felt like i should have played Half-Life 1 to give a damn about anyone in that game.
I felt like i should have played Half-Life 1 to give a damn about anyone in that game.
In my opinion, Faith from Mirror's Edge looks pretty much realistic shes not an oversexed character, and is more worried about whats going on, (Oh, and saving her sister), then how skimpy her clothes are. Shes a bit realistic, but how she survives some jumps confused me.
You seriously need to spend some sexy-time with a girl if you think Alyx equates to a girlfriend-esque experience or interactive porn (or just actually watch some porn for that matter).
How can someone be massively sexualised if they're not? You're supposed to care about her - it provides motivation. That's one of the reasons you turn the page of the book isn't it, because you like the characters, you want to know what happens?
OK, she's not ugly (I'm not sure why people think this then equates to being a regular person) but so what?
The character is likable - that's why I felt desperately sorry for her at the end of Episode 2. Christ, I like Eli so much I wanted the chance to go f*cking ape shit at the end of Episode 2.
Alyx is hardly one-dimensional anyway. You sound like the type who says the Half-Life series story is shit because you never get a cutscene and you're only going from point A to B (like that guy who described the majority of HL2 as "filler").
Oh, and are you saying Alyx isn't a realistic female game character because you don't f*ck her?
Yeah, OK.
How can someone be massively sexualised if they're not? You're supposed to care about her - it provides motivation. That's one of the reasons you turn the page of the book isn't it, because you like the characters, you want to know what happens?
OK, she's not ugly (I'm not sure why people think this then equates to being a regular person) but so what?
The character is likable - that's why I felt desperately sorry for her at the end of Episode 2. Christ, I like Eli so much I wanted the chance to go f*cking ape shit at the end of Episode 2.
Alyx is hardly one-dimensional anyway. You sound like the type who says the Half-Life series story is shit because you never get a cutscene and you're only going from point A to B (like that guy who described the majority of HL2 as "filler").
Oh, and are you saying Alyx isn't a realistic female game character because you don't f*ck her?
Yeah, OK.
Clearly you were playing mountains of attention when you were playing then...saejox said:
About the jumping part, yeah, me too, but some people are amazing at parkour and can pull that shit of pretty well actually.Darkblaven said:
OT: Damn. I was thinking of getting Half-Life 2, but now I'm not all that sure any more, because Alyx has been touted as the game's most important feature on several forums (including here) and now I find all that's overrated. Huzzah
She's just a (relatively) normal and non-sexualized female video game character. That's supposed to be big deal apparently.
Half-Life 2 has too little character exploration to say for sure how developed they are, so it's mostly about how believable they are instead. And believability becomes far more easy to achieve the less you explore.
However, I wouldn't say Alyx is completely unchallenge character in that aspect either, but there are stories (both in and outside of gaming) that go so much more in-depth with their cast that I wouldn't call Alyx anything extraordinary.
Half-Life 2 has too little character exploration to say for sure how developed they are, so it's mostly about how believable they are instead. And believability becomes far more easy to achieve the less you explore.
However, I wouldn't say Alyx is completely unchallenge character in that aspect either, but there are stories (both in and outside of gaming) that go so much more in-depth with their cast that I wouldn't call Alyx anything extraordinary.
Ok, first of all, special thanks to those who provided CONSTRUCTIVE opinion. I like to see that.
Second, if you're here to talk about the fucking combine, could you please make your own thread. I'm here to talk about Alyx and the portrayal of characters in a video game.
Even if it is more admirable to showcase the "girlnextdoor" instead of boobs (which, in the end, is subjective, so I'll accept that), my problem is that people treat her like she is a very well developed character which she is absolutely not.
I disagree with you when you say that in games, you need to sympathize with the character and place extra importance on how he interacts. Those are challenges that EVERY story-writer has to think about. NOT just games. Who's going to like a TV show if nobody can sympathize with the character(s). What made House so successful?
It depends on said qualities (Not all qualities are black and white, good or bad. Like "agressiveness" can go either way)
It depends on the context or what a reasonable character might do in a situation.
Human being are complicated and creating realistic characters is a challenge, but I don't think that people will be alienated by more developed characters. If anything, people will like them MORE. We're humans! We naturally sympathize with humane qualities!
That's more of a disappointment, what also bugs me is that people place Alyx above WAY better developed characters as if she's a shining example of what female game characters should aspire to be. It's bullshit. She's a "girl next door" and if that's good enough for you then fine, but I think the industry can do better.
The other part (and I find this particularly important since it's so rarely a focus in video games) of her character development was due to her growing relationship with Tidus. Their relationship is a well-crafted teenage love story. They start out attracted to each other (but immature so not understanding why) and share some small awkward moments together as friends, but with something else going on that they are both aware of, a connection between them is growing little by little. THAT alone is already a great set up for a love story, and there are some great set-pieces added on, most importantly, the revelation that in order to kill Sin, Yuna will die. This affects their relationship in many ways, most notably in the most moving scene in the woods, leading to their kiss. Eventually by the end (I skipped a few things, I know, I'm a bit short on time), they profess their love for each other even if they cannot be together. Sad, but wonderful.
How the FUCK did you miss ALL of that character development when you played through the game?
About Bayonetta. Well if the game is meant to be shallow and sell on sex appeal then sure, it's a winner. It's got the literary depth of a FUCKING MICHAEL BAY movie and frankly that's pathetic. It may be a great technical display with creative gameplay and very fun, but you're wrong
Your two examples are extremely poorly designed, so of course they sound absurd, but that's only because your understanding of romantic relationships is appalling. There ARE ways those games could be significantly improved and people who actually know good literature and maybe Bayonetta wouldn't end up being just a shallow grab for boners. You see, titties and characters who embody 100 fetishes are really only appealing to an immature male teen mind. Mature people need more than that.
No, she has no personality, she's a stereotypical girl next door.
No, she's no better than any slutty-dressed girl because she is a direct target to appeal to male gamers through the emotional side. Very similar, just more subtle and because it's all about personality it's assumed she's a better character.
The one thing I WOULD agree there is that facial and movement animation is definitely a more humane. Still, from a character stand-point. She's shallow.
Second, if you're here to talk about the fucking combine, could you please make your own thread. I'm here to talk about Alyx and the portrayal of characters in a video game.
Well that's the thing. She is ALWAYS praised when mentioned. Not that she is mentioned excessively and I never hear anyoneramik81 said:
I've already been through every fucking article of TV trope. Yes, they are building blocks. But Alyx is just a walking STEREOTYPE. She exhibits a VERY specific amount of UNCHANGED traits that remain unchanged. She starts off as a caring compassionate sympathetic character and she finishes as a caring compassionate sympathetic character. She's very close to being a "Mary Sue" (and that trope, is ALWAYS bad). Yuna is made of some tropes and has character development over the course of her journey. Her voyage changes her, it has meaning, it has morals, it shows her starting as a naive young girl to a more confident mature young woman who takes a stand for her beliefs. You don't just dump tropes into a story, it's about how you use them.orannis62 said:
Read my damn post! I never said that she was a "sexy-babe" is said that she is the EMOTIONAL EQUIVALENT of a sexy-babe, that's very different. She is NOT overtly sexual and that's why it goes so unnoticed. It's appeal is different. How the hell is this prejudice? I evaluated Alyx over the course of her journey and I noticed that she remains the same the entire time, that she only displays qualities designed to portray comfort, sympathy and support to the player.Sneaklemming said:
Is this suppose to "excuse" video game stories? That's ridiculous. I expect real characters to go through development over the course of a STORY. How the game developers present that story is entirely up to them, but saying that the game is only a few hours long and that's why the story doesn't affect any of the characters is a shitty excuse.Rack said:
Perhaps, but he's not a character 14 year olds can RELATE to. The issues that he goes through are very different. For example. MGS1&2 had a nice long morality talk about the difficulty of killing a human being. Sure it was deep but there's no way any 14 year old is going to relate to that because they haven't killed a person (or at least I hope not). The issue of death of old age is NOT an issue that teens think about. These ARE qualities that people like, but the ISSUES that snake deals with are nothing like the issues of an adolescent.boholikeu said:
See it's only more admirable because it's so discrete. Games that showcase their female characters are criticizing for being to obvious about it. Alyx is just another way of selling sex (this time in the form of a "girlfriend experience") that's more subtle and that doesn't have a negative stigma.
Even if it is more admirable to showcase the "girlnextdoor" instead of boobs (which, in the end, is subjective, so I'll accept that), my problem is that people treat her like she is a very well developed character which she is absolutely not.
Not that simple (creative mediums tend to be like that), you're grazing the surface of character design in literature. Making characters that an audience can sympathize with, but not making them perfect (A Mary Sue, for TVtrope fans). Giving them personal history that the audience can care about. All of these things are perfectly within the real of capability of any good character designer who's making characters for a video game. I do like that you're thinking about some truely important issues involving characters, but I don't like how you're making it seem like the game industry should be "excused" from trying to create these. It's also VERY possible to make a character that's flawed, but people still like, for example, Travis Touchdown. He's been quite a popular character and a good example of a well developed character.
I disagree with you when you say that in games, you need to sympathize with the character and place extra importance on how he interacts. Those are challenges that EVERY story-writer has to think about. NOT just games. Who's going to like a TV show if nobody can sympathize with the character(s). What made House so successful?
That's a good point. In the case of HL2 and co. I don't see a way of making Alyx a fully deep character without screwing it up. But I think you are mistaken when you think that the only way to improve a character is by giving them negative qualities. It's more complicated than that:
It depends on said qualities (Not all qualities are black and white, good or bad. Like "agressiveness" can go either way)
It depends on the context or what a reasonable character might do in a situation.
Human being are complicated and creating realistic characters is a challenge, but I don't think that people will be alienated by more developed characters. If anything, people will like them MORE. We're humans! We naturally sympathize with humane qualities!
And for a lot of people, that's fine. I however think that developers should look outside the box more. Video games can become a work of art and be respected as a form of literature but that will involve some work and it pains me to see people who are satisfied with just game mechanics and no effort to tell a good story.
That's more of a disappointment, what also bugs me is that people place Alyx above WAY better developed characters as if she's a shining example of what female game characters should aspire to be. It's bullshit. She's a "girl next door" and if that's good enough for you then fine, but I think the industry can do better.
Did you miss how she started out as a naive, reserved and uncertain girl to eventually become an emotionally mature, more open and confident of her own morals? Her character development was partly due to pilgrimage where she started out unsure of herself and eventually decided to cast aside her own fate to save those she cares about (even when she was prepared to sacrifice herself). This part was interesting, and played like a very good "coming of age" story where she goes from being a naive and immature girl to a much more confident woman. (then jumped a few steps to then become the FFX-2 Yuna). I can't think of many other video games that even ADDRESS these teenage issues (I can think of a director who deals with this theme EXTREMELY well: Hayao Miyazaki)TailsRodrigez said:
The other part (and I find this particularly important since it's so rarely a focus in video games) of her character development was due to her growing relationship with Tidus. Their relationship is a well-crafted teenage love story. They start out attracted to each other (but immature so not understanding why) and share some small awkward moments together as friends, but with something else going on that they are both aware of, a connection between them is growing little by little. THAT alone is already a great set up for a love story, and there are some great set-pieces added on, most importantly, the revelation that in order to kill Sin, Yuna will die. This affects their relationship in many ways, most notably in the most moving scene in the woods, leading to their kiss. Eventually by the end (I skipped a few things, I know, I'm a bit short on time), they profess their love for each other even if they cannot be together. Sad, but wonderful.
How the FUCK did you miss ALL of that character development when you played through the game?
She's not a tour guide, she's a companion. She shares a connection with gordon but it's all STRICTLY for the sake of compassion and caring (like a girlfriend provides, just non-sexual). If you don't understand how these qualities are similar to those people have in a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship then I really can't help you. It's too complicated to explain.JimmyBassatti said:
About Bayonetta. Well if the game is meant to be shallow and sell on sex appeal then sure, it's a winner. It's got the literary depth of a FUCKING MICHAEL BAY movie and frankly that's pathetic. It may be a great technical display with creative gameplay and very fun, but you're wrong
Your two examples are extremely poorly designed, so of course they sound absurd, but that's only because your understanding of romantic relationships is appalling. There ARE ways those games could be significantly improved and people who actually know good literature and maybe Bayonetta wouldn't end up being just a shallow grab for boners. You see, titties and characters who embody 100 fetishes are really only appealing to an immature male teen mind. Mature people need more than that.
And what makes you think that? Sounds to me like you're making a pretty broad assumption that borders on nihilism.Souplex said:
Loads of people, including on this forum. My first question was an opening line, don't take everything literally and then assume it was my entire evidence.AkJay said:
How the hell is she realistic? You do realize this whole discussion is about personality and character development, right? It's not looks. Last I checked Faith didn't have much of a personality.Darkblaven said:
Thankyou for showing an example of the kind of opinion I deconstructed in my original post. So I'll synthesize:WINDOWCLEAN2 said:
No, she has no personality, she's a stereotypical girl next door.
No, she's no better than any slutty-dressed girl because she is a direct target to appeal to male gamers through the emotional side. Very similar, just more subtle and because it's all about personality it's assumed she's a better character.
The one thing I WOULD agree there is that facial and movement animation is definitely a more humane. Still, from a character stand-point. She's shallow.
I'm not impressed. It's extremely rude, ignorant and condescending to dismiss an entire fucking explanation and not explain why you think it's wrong. If you truly believe that Yuna doesn't show good character development then I expect you to fucking prove it.hURR dURR dERP said:
Never played HL and to be honest I only read to
But I would say Jen from Primal is a realistic and well developed character...
I'm not here to impress you.President Moocow said:
And the point isn't whether Yuna is or isn't a good character, it's that you're comparing a sidekick character from a linear shooter (sidekicking to a mute protagonist, no less) to a character who's one of the main focus points of an RPG. That's all kinds of pointless. Apples and oranges.
Hmmmmm, I quite like Yuna as a character in FFX, and that's because she's developed as a decent character on her own without being overly sexualised. This gets completely subverted, of course, in the sequel. But personally, I like female characters who are realistic, regardless of sexuality within the game. And since girl-next-door type women exist in real life, and people are more likely to know such a person, I have no problem with the likes of Alyx Vance. Hey, I'm currently playing The Longest Journey, and the main character in that (April Ryan) is specifically a realistic, attractive but not overtly sexual, character who develops well over the course of the game. The only real problem I personally see with female character development in gaming is when characters are marketed solely on their sexual characteristics rather than anything else (I refer of course to things like Dead Or Alive, or Bayonetta, and so on...).
Sigh. This is not his argument. Why is Alyx 'considered' one of the most developed characters out there? Not just in a FPS but in ALL games? Yuna was just an example of a character with more depth in a GAME. This has nothing to do with what genre the characters come from.hURR dURR dERP said: