Alyx Vance, supposedly one of the most developed characters in video games, is bullshit

[Dont Fear The Reaper]

If somebody asked me who I thought the most developed female character in video game history was I would slap him across the face for asking such a stupid fucking question.

 

[Joeshie]

Yuna? Seriously? Talk about a completely annoying and crappy character. You complain about Alyx Vance falling into a "girl next door" stereotype but seem to forget that Yuna is basically the stereotypical Japanese woman. Weak, soft-spoken, always considerate to others, etc. Not to mention she got even worse in Final Fantasy X-2.

Alyx was far and away more realistic than Yuna in both her attitude, looks, and demeanor. Yuna was certainly a more developed character, but that doesn't make a character more realistic.

I really don't know many women or girls who are equally gifted in science, and warfare, so much that they can handle an occupying force wearing just a sweater and some crappy jeans. Yes, Gordon Freeman, the MIT grad who picked up his survival skills while attempting his escape from Black Mesa, doesn't hold a candle against Alyx. In fact, without the protection from his HEV suit, Gordon would technically have been dead a long time ago, and Alyx could with her current abilities handle the whole invasion/occupation of mankind by herself.

She is no where realistic, hell, I have more respect for the resistance fighters than her. Gordon ain't a god on the battlefield like Alyx is. Hell, I would even have more respect for a Gordona Freewoman than Alyx.

You completely misunderstood me. I meant realistic as in the personality and body/clothing you would find on the average female in real life. Her face isn't perfect, nor is her body. I wasn't talking about actual physical strength or resistance to damage.

 

[internetzealot1]

You may have some valid points, but she does have some depth.

 

[sylekage]

Alyx Vance may be the "girlfriend type", but she is a more well rounded character then most gaming characters. She's actually a half decent A.I. and her voice talent is awesome.

 

[evilartist]

I didn't think she was very realistic, surviving a grenade dropped by me

...neither is it realistic for Freeman to be surviving several grenade explosions. What's your point? This thread is about character development.

OT: Her character felt believable to me. At least Vavle didn't go with the busty, sexy sidekick with an attitude. imo Alyx had a pretty well-developed personality.

 

[Omniponent]

Maybe the government has put a top secret ban on realistic video game girls. Think about it. Since artists can already make a girl beyond beautiful and nearly real looking ie(Mass Effect 2, Half-life 2) if they could also act dynamic like a real person, our species wold pretty much go extinct. Why try to have sex with the semi-attractive co-worker who has no interest in you, when you could masturbate to a much more attractive girl who was built for you? Thood for Fought.

 

[w1n5t0n]

So your point is that Alyx Vance is just another video game babe because she is a "friendly female" who "isn't there for intimate relationships" and isn't overly sexualized... sounds like a lot of normal girls i talk to, maybe in your world they are all ugly and hate you, but in mine they usually don't want to have sex but are still pretty friendly, i mean that's like saying the sims aren't an accurate portrayal of real life because all they do is get a job, eat, and sleep... your logic just doesnt make sense to me.

 

[the1ultimate]

I think it depends in part on your expectations. I went into the game expecting no special characterization from the supporting cast and was pleasantly surprised.

I'm afraid I can't take your post entirely seriously because you argue about the beauty of an underwater kissing scene and make a case for a realistic character, side by side. That, and you saying that Alyx is there for "comfort" so soon after watching <a href=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/doomsday-arcade/1364>Doomsday Arcade 23 made me laugh.

Anyway, I've always held that art isn't necessarily realistic, however that doesn't lessen its impact on the people it engages.

If Alyx Vance acts a little like a fantasy character, that could be because the entire post-apocalyptic game is a stereotypical fantasy. Or because of Valve's marketing department.

IMHO the story is the dullest part of Half-Life 2 and characterization is leaps and bounds ahead of it.

 

[Sneaklemming]

I believe that it is your own prejudices that have warped Alyx into the "sexy-babe" type you claim her to be.

Personal bias can change the way you look at things.

Read my damn post! I never said that she was a "sexy-babe" is said that she is the EMOTIONAL EQUIVALENT of a sexy-babe, that's very different. She is NOT overtly sexual and that's why it goes so unnoticed. It's appeal is different. How the hell is this prejudice? I evaluated Alyx over the course of her journey and I noticed that she remains the same the entire time, that she only displays qualities designed to portray comfort, sympathy and support to the player.

I did read your post. You are not listening to me. I'm telling you that everyone will evaluate Alyx differently over the course of her journey, and they will do so because of their prejudices. Now, for example, some might consider Alyx to be extremely sexist because she plays second violin to Freeman.

Thing is though, your OP is not balanced in any way, it isn't a real academic argument, and without going that step further, then it is merely an opinion, framed by personal prejudices. I'm not trying to troll you. Your opinion is completely valid; but that doesn't make it true. If you really want to discover what kind of character Alyx is, you have to evaluate her in the same way English literature students evaluate fictional characters.

Of course the real problem with evaluating fictional characters in Video games has to do with the interactivity in the first place. There is also a secondary issue where the character of Alyx is not the result of a single author. Unlike Books, or even Films, (where I believe the Director is given the credit.)

 

[Cryfear101]

Alyx Vance???

Ermmm cant be all that good, never heard of the name!

 

[President Moocow]

Yuna, more realistic than Alyx...

That made me... laugh.

That's a pitiful argument. I EXPLAINED why Yuna is far more realistic than Alyx is, character wise and if you have a fucking reason to disagree then I expect you to fucking SUPPORT YOUR GODDAMN OPINION. NOT just state a fact. It's not even just a bad debating tactic, refusing to acknowledge any point of view is close-minded and pretty fucking rude.

Do like this guy, who at least EXPLAINS his disagreement for Yuna:

Yuna? Seriously? Talk about a completely annoying and crappy character. You complain about Alyx Vance falling into a "girl next door" stereotype but seem to forget that Yuna is basically the stereotypical Japanese woman. Weak, soft-spoken, always considerate to others, etc. Not to mention she got even worse in Final Fantasy X-2.

Alyx was far and away more realistic than Yuna in both her attitude, looks, and demeanor. Yuna was certainly a more developed character, but that doesn't make a character more realistic.

but unfortunately didn't read my post carefully enough. I SAID that Yuna also not immune to stereotypes, being the Yamato Nadeshiko. Do you know what that is? It's basically EXACTLY what you mention, stereotypical Japanese women. But here's the big difference: Yuna CHANGES and matures into something MORE than that, as well as displays other qualities. Funny, in X-2, she resembles NOTHING of Yamato Nadeshiko, yet you say she's even worse? She wasn't soft-spoken, she resolved a fucking dispute by pointing a gun at a Ronso's head. Stereotypical Japanese woman my ass.

Alyx is NOT a realistic character. She's a one-dimensional stereotype. If you think undeveloped characters make for realistic ones then you should try and watch a few more movies. Mike's development from a law-abiding citizen to a head of the family is the FUCKING ESSENCE of the Godfather, a movie that's universally acclaimed. Character development is essential to a strong story of believable characters, and Alyx is none of that.

"realistic" is not the word you were looking for, I think you meant "developed" or "complex".

As explained, realistic characters NEED to be developed and complex. One-dimensional characters by definition are not realistic.

"realistic" is not the word you were looking for, I think you meant "developed" or "complex".

You imply that you like FF10 and 10-2 more than the acceptable amount of liking it. Thus your arguments are all invalid! HAHAHAHA!

Jokes(not really) aside though, I get your point. I just don't know what to do with it. Besides, it feels like you're deliberately forgetting some of the other qualities that Alyx has. I like that she's resourceful, smart and independent for example. You describe her like she's just some stupid ***** who's there to make the man feel good and clean his house, or whatever.

Luckily, nobody is mandating how much a certain person is "allowed" to like a game.

All those qualities, whilst better, don't make her a well-rounded character because all her character traits are simply the "Top list of qualites that guys want in a girl", she's designed as a fantasy of girl that a guy would want, which is the "girl next door" fantasy. I never called her a "stupid *****". I said she was "designed to provide care and compassion" how that translates to "stupid ***** who's there to make the man feel good" is beyond me.

Well, I didn't read all of this, because you're probably just trolling, but, in terms of characters in games I've seen, Alyx is great.

Challenging a popular viewpoint is not trolling, it's enlightening. The purpose of this thread is that people look more critically about characters in video and many people here are noticing that, which makes me quite happy. I'm also learning a few interesting things as well.

 

[boholikeu]

See it's only more admirable because it's so discrete. Games that showcase their female characters are criticizing for being to obvious about it. Alyx is just another way of selling sex (this time in the form of a "girlfriend experience") that's more subtle and that doesn't have a negative stigma.

Even if it is more admirable to showcase the "girlnextdoor" instead of boobs (which, in the end, is subjective, so I'll accept that), my problem is that people treat her like she is a very well developed character which she is absolutely not.

I still don't agree that Valve is selling sex here so much as creating a character meant solely to be supportive. Barney is just as trusting of the player as Alyx is, and honestly I don't really see any difference between the two besides the fact that Alyx is a woman. I can see you arguing that the decision of her gender was made with sex appeal in mind, but aside from that if she were male she'd just as easily fit into the "buddy" stereotype from cop movies.

Definitely agree with you that she's a flat character though. Oh, and good point about Old Snake.

Not that simple (creative mediums tend to be like that), you're grazing the surface of character design in literature. Making characters that an audience can sympathize with, but not making them perfect (A Mary Sue, for TVtrope fans). Giving them personal history that the audience can care about. All of these things are perfectly within the real of capability of any good character designer who's making characters for a video game. I do like that you're thinking about some truely important issues involving characters, but I don't like how you're making it seem like the game industry should be "excused" from trying to create these. It's also VERY possible to make a character that's flawed, but people still like, for example, Travis Touchdown. He's been quite a popular character and a good example of a well developed character.

I disagree with you when you say that in games, you need to sympathize with the character and place extra importance on how he interacts. Those are challenges that EVERY story-writer has to think about. NOT just games. Who's going to like a TV show if nobody can sympathize with the character(s). What made House so successful?

Part of this is my fault for speaking so generally, but I don't think that deep characters are impossible in video games, nor do I "excuse" the industry from creating them. I definitely think the design teams should spend much more time considering plot and characterization, but at the same time I realize that writing for video games is VERY different from writing for film/tv/novels. Certain situations (such as this one with Alyx) require you rethink some rules that don't really translate well into an interactive environment.

That's why I said that likability can be more important than rounding out a character. You're certainly right that that's not always the case, but I think in this instance the developers made the right choice. I mean, look at your House example. Have you ever heard the phrase "it's funny because it's not happening to me"? While House is an entertaining and sympathetic character when you are watching the situation omnisciently, I don't think I'd be so understanding of him if I had to work with him everyday. Putting a character a character like him into a video game would definitely require a lot of design considerations. I don't think it's impossible of course, but he definitely wouldn't be a good candidate for a role like Alyx's, for example.

That's a good point. In the case of HL2 and co. I don't see a way of making Alyx a fully deep character without screwing it up. But I think you are mistaken when you think that the only way to improve a character is by giving them negative qualities. It's more complicated than that:

It depends on said qualities (Not all qualities are black and white, good or bad. Like "agressiveness" can go either way)
It depends on the context or what a reasonable character might do in a situation.

Human being are complicated and creating realistic characters is a challenge, but I don't think that people will be alienated by more developed characters. If anything, people will like them MORE. We're humans! We naturally sympathize with humane qualities!

Actually, I pretty much agree with you here. It'll be interesting to see how (or if) Valve develops Alyx's character given the events at the end of Ep2. While she definitely needed to be unquestionably trusting and likable in the first few episodes, she's so well established now that they can afford to flesh her out a bit.

And for a lot of people, that's fine. I however think that developers should look outside the box more. Video games can become a work of art and be respected as a form of literature but that will involve some work and it pains me to see people who are satisfied with just game mechanics and no effort to tell a good story.

That's more of a disappointment, what also bugs me is that people place Alyx above WAY better developed characters as if she's a shining example of what female game characters should aspire to be. It's bullshit. She's a "girl next door" and if that's good enough for you then fine, but I think the industry can do better.

It's still a valid comparison. First of all, you're just plain wrong about Alyx. Without her, Half-life 2 episode 1 and 2 would be very boring and very alone. Developer commentaries in the game made it clear that Alyx was an important part of the game therefore she is a viable and important character. That's no excuse for presenting her as a one-dimensional stereotype and frankly if you think that's more impressive than dealing with deep thematic character then you've got some odd priorities.

I'll give you one point, it is true that comparing FFX to HL2 is like comparing action movies to romance movies. They are going to have a much stronger emphasis on different themes. HOWEVER the action movie should still have some good characters, not shallow stereotypes. I used Yuna as an example because her development is VERY well explained. That doesn't mean Alyx should have as much development, but she should have SOMETHING more than just a one-dimensional personality.

Making a character like Alyx is extremely easy by the way. All her lines fit the same stereotype. Crafting a development of her character, now THAT would be a challenge.

It always makes me chuckle a bit to hear people say that something that required an entire dev team countless hours of playtesting is "easy", but whatever. I guess Valve should've just saved all their money and hired you, instead, amirite? =)

Chiding aside (it was all meant in good fun. I'm actually really enjoying your responses, so please don't take it personally), I almost think that Alyx is a better "video game character" than Yuna when you take mechanics and interaction into account.

{Full Disclosure Dept: I've only played an hour of FFX so this is just based on my impressions and what I've heard of the game. If I'm wrong feel free to rip me a new one in your reply)

What I mean by that is Alyx's character is defined through both the story and her contribution to gameplay. Yes, she might only be a stereotype on paper, but in game that stereotype serves a purpose, and it does so very well. She provides the player company without getting in the way (which is actually more difficult than it sounds), supports them in a few combat situations, and gives the player hints about objectives. You mention above that without Alyx Ep1 and 2 would be very boring and lonely. Well I think that without her mechanics (IE if the player only saw her "between levels") Alyx would be very forgettable.

Yuna, on the other hand, amounts to little more than another set of combat moves in game. Sure, she is a well developed character in the games cut-scenes and dialogue, but if you wiped all that away she'd just be the "healing spells and summons". Her "coming of age" could have been mirrored in the new spells (particularly the summons} she learns as the game progresses, but as far as I can tell it's not. Similarly, there's no gameplay to suggest her relationships with other characters either, so there goes the whole teenage romance.

Sure, you can say none of this matters, and that a deep character is always preferable to a shallow one. Personally though, I'm more interested in video games learning the language of their own medium rather than just copying that of an existing one. Just as you'd expect acting to contribute as much characterization as plot and dialogue in a movie, I expect to gain something from interactivity when I'm playing a video game, and Alyx gives me much more in that regard than Yuna does.

 

[veloper]

Yuna? Seriously? Talk about a completely annoying and crappy character. You complain about Alyx Vance falling into a "girl next door" stereotype but seem to forget that Yuna is basically the stereotypical Japanese woman. Weak, soft-spoken, always considerate to others, etc. Not to mention she got even worse in Final Fantasy X-2.

Alyx was far and away more realistic than Yuna in both her attitude, looks, and demeanor. Yuna was certainly a more developed character, but that doesn't make a character more realistic.

but unfortunately didn't read my post carefully enough. I SAID that Yuna also not immune to stereotypes
[/quote]

So now we learn this Yuna doesn't cut it either.

You said in your OP that there were more examples of better portrayal of women, in games.
Out with it then. Most here at the escapist don't even play JRPGs, so bring a better example.

 

[Sven und EIN HUND]

Well, I didn't read all of this, because you're probably just trolling, but, in terms of characters in games I've seen, Alyx is great.

Challenging a popular viewpoint is not trolling, it's enlightening. The purpose of this thread is that people look more critically about characters in video and many people here are noticing that, which makes me quite happy. I'm also learning a few interesting things as well.

Fair enough (I just spent time actually reading the OP). I see where you're coming from in that looking at something from all possible angles is a definite eye-opener and can help you to better your knowledge and expand the way you think about things, but a lot of the time it's trolling, especially with an insanely popular game such as Half-Life 2; it's 'cool' or whatever to challenge the norm. Looking at your points, they're pretty much all wrong (in my mind, I'm fine with respecting other peoples' opinions and they're entitled to them). Alyx Vance is a brilliant character, as are basically all of the characters in HL2; you actually care about them, and that's something that's all but gone amiss in modern gaming. There is an immense amount of character development throughout the course of the game, believe me, and Alyx is no exception.

 

[Manji187]

So, do you think real people go through character development every 5 hours or so?

Hmm...a very good point. Conveying character development in games is indeed very difficult, though not impossible.

 

[LiquidGrape]

I see your point. You've obviously given it a great deal of thought, and you formulate it in a perfectly understandable fashion.
Yet I disagree.
Character development is, as I can tell you think as well, the very essence of successful characterization.
Indeed; without some sense that the parts involved grow or shrink as human beings throughout the ordeals that face them, the entire experience falls flat.
But that particular development is a process which takes time, at least in any logical context.
How many days does the timeline of Gordon's and Alyx' relationship consist of as of yet?
Three? Four?
And the motivations of the protagonists in Half-Life 2 remain virtually the same since their collective goal is yet to be achieved.
Yet I definitely see some subtle proof of evolution in Alyx.
At the very beginning of Episode One, she's seemingly overcome by joy upon discovering the player alive.
She retracts, but not before betraying the sense that her fondness for Gordon might've grown into something more than merely a friendly acquaintance.
And I'd be surprised if you disagree on that the finale of Episode Two might be the catalyst of a radical change in Alyx persona.
We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[MiracleOfSound]

Yuna, more realistic than Alyx...

That made me... laugh.

That's a pitiful argument. I EXPLAINED why Yuna is far more realistic than Alyx is, character wise and if you have a fucking reason to disagree then I expect you to fucking SUPPORT YOUR GODDAMN OPINION. NOT just state a fact. It's not even just a bad debating tactic, refusing to acknowledge any point of view is close-minded and pretty fucking rude.

Do like this guy, who at least EXPLAINS his disagreement for Yuna:

Untie that panty knot there, buddy.

It was a joke referring to Yuna's infamously fake and un-human like laughing scene.

That's why the 'laugh' was in italics.

You need to relax, your excessive swearing and flaming makes you look like a crazy person.