Am I A Terrible Person For Not Caring?

[Mudokon]

i never really cared about this, and i dont think there is a problem for those that thinks there is a problem, there are many female playable characters out there, in fighting games, strategy, adventures, i also know that there are many games with heroines like tomb raider, heavenly sword, syberia, longest journey. i never bothered about male or female characters in a videogame, i only cared about if i like the game or not.

 

[Vareoth]

Simple. Everyone has a right voice his or her opinion or to simply not give a flying toss. No one can tell you what to think. You should be careful though, that you don't use the moniker "don't care" to discredit other people's opinions on the basis of "therefor you shouldn't care either". Lots of people have problems seeing the difference.

 

[CloudAtlas]

Now as for starting second career.. yeah, it's nort like I you know mentioned otherways lik:

1.) Looking at Kickstarter and throwing some money behind a project or game that is a good example of what you want to see.

2.) Scroll through greenlight and upvote a few.

3.) Spread the word and talk up a game one of these projects or a game in existence that is an example.

Seriously, pick any one of these things and you'll actually be doing something beneficial and constructive, not to mention something that helps those that are taking the actually you know 'actions' to deal with the problem you're complaining so bitterly about. For example, I will hold up a game: Long Live the Queen' as a fun and entertaining example of a game with a female protagonist. There is also transistor. You should totally check these games out.

Now see, that's not so hard is it? To say something positive and you know informative as opposed to just bile and negativity. See that's what 'action' can look like.

But seriously, look at that list, and pick one or pick all three and if you say you can't

* Put your skills to the task of solving the problem.
OR
* Put your money to the task of solving the problem.
OR
* Put your time to the task of solving the problem.
OR
* Put your voice to the task of solving the problem.

Then you my friend deserve the problem since it is obviously not serious enough to you that you would contribute more to its solution than a shrill whine and hot air.

1. Why do you assume that the people who complain about the representation of women in games don't actually put their money where their mouth is? I know I already did, I know good representation changes my propensity to financially support a game, and many other people in this forum have already stated that they did the same.
Doesn't that mean, by your logic, that we ARE taking action, by putting our "money to the task of solving the problem", and thus have "earned" to right to complain about it?
And what makes you think I, and people like me, would only be negative, and never give credit to certain games where credit is due?

2. By your own words, to "Put your voice to the task of solving the problem" - and what is complaining about something other than making your voice heard - already qualifies as action. That is, you accuse others of just complaining instead of taking action, while you actually accept complaining as taking action here, from which follows that you complain about people doing just the things you want them to do but claim they aren't doing, thereby rendering your whole line of reasoning... inconsistent to say the least.

 

[CloudAtlas]

In my experience, most of the people who ***** about this kind of thing, when it's clearly devoid of hate, is Social Justice Warriors, people who feel like they don't have enough to ***** about in their life, so they have to go finding reasons.

Yea I can kinda guess the scope of your "experience".

Good rule of thumb: If the party that's being "offended" is not you, or anyone you know/love (Addendum: If they are not offended, this still applies), shut up.
I.E: White guy (sorry if it seems I'm targeting us, but hey, we're the ones who tend to do this) cries sexism over a game. (Say, Bayonetta). Girlfriend/sister/friend who is a girl see's no sexism, and is not offended. Shut up.

Why don't you let the "offended party" decide whether they welcome the support of others? So far not a single woman has told me that I, as a man, have no right to complain about stuff that is affecting them more than it affects me. And I imagine that is because female gamers are glad about male gamers sharing their views and joining them in their fight.

And you know what? It is my fight, my personal fight too. As a man I am not as personally affected by this bullshit, but I am affected to some degree nonetheless, and I am personally offended by the bullshit. I'm offended by developers thinking so lowly of me as a man that they believe stuffing their games with lazy ass juvenile pandering will increase the likelihood of me, as part of their target demographic, buying their games, that they believe I won't notice if their stories are full of shitty, shallow, stereotypical female characters.
It's an insult to my intelligence, an insult to my maturity, an insult to my taste.

So if being "personally offended" is the criteria for you allowing people to speak or wanting them to shut up, then even by your own (awful) "rule of thumb" everyone has the right to complain about this issue, for everyone can credibly claim to be offended just like I am.

 

[Gearhead mk2]

I would freaking love more diverse characters, but most of them time, it's kinda hard to care if they're just not there. Really the only time I think a lack of diverse characters is worth getting worked up about is when the dev gives a reason for not having them that's complete bull (AC Unity) the dev tries not to include them because they're afraid of low sales (Remember Me) or they're so close to being in the final product that that the exclusion of them is jarring (SERIOUSLY FIRE EMBLEM AWAKENING WHERE IS MY GODDAMN GAY OPTION YOU HAVE LGBT CHARACTERS WHY CAN'T THEY HOOK UP AAAAHHHH). And regarding the whole tokenism thing, having a character just to buck stereotypes is just as bad as having a character just to conform to stereotypes. Instead of having a black guy just to have a black guy, look at the existing characters, pick one at random, and have them be black because why not?

 

[Bluestorm83]

ak93]It seems that everyday people make a big deal out of gender equality in games.

Is it bad that I don't really care?

I didn't finish Mass Effect and think "Man, that game would have been better had there been more females".

Or play a chapter of The Walking Dead thinking "This would be better if Lee was Lea."

My point being, do people actually find a lack of female characters (playable and non) in games off putting?

Should I?

I'm not a girl, maybe that's part of the problem. Perhaps I would notice it more if I was.

I play a game for the game. The characters that come up in the game are part of that experience. Male and female. Do we really need a quota for either?

No. In fact, it shows that you've moved beyond gender politics. You not caring shows that you have no inherent gender bias at all. You are, it seems, the ubermensch of this new age. And I feel exactly the same as you.

So what? Male characters, female characters, none of that shit matters at all. I play videogames; would you like to play videogames too?

 

[jFr[e]ak93]

Can't blame you considering how often these debates devolve into name calling, oppression olympics, and people talking past each other.

My point being, do people actually find a lack of female characters (playable and non) in games off putting?

Most of the games I play have females available to play as, and the only games in my collection that don't are Vanquish and Metal Gear Rising. It didn't bother me in Vanquish, but in MGR I wanted to play as Mistral.

 

[Dalrien]

It'd be swell if there were more "good" female characters.

It'd be swell if there were more "good" male characters.

That's what my opinion amounts to in regards to everyone banging on about how they want more women in games. I just want good games and i'd rather focus on women's right's in real life, although some may argue it's interconnected but gaming being my hobby, i'd rather not stuff political bitter stuff into what I enjoy digesting. Gives me a bad stomach.

OP not caring much for the conflict is fine in my eyes, aslong as he cares for the conflict outside the digital world.

 

[Sutter Cane]

In my experience, most of the people who ***** about this kind of thing, when it's clearly devoid of hate,

when you make a work...your intentions don't mean shit (unlike context...which does)the only thing thats actually intentioanlly harmful I can think of is Birth of a Nation

"bingo bango bongo I don't wanna leave the congo" a song from the 50's you might have heard in Fallout 3 was not intented to be offensive, its a toungue in cheek novelty song about modern life...it Idoes however condense an enitire culture and people into bone wearing canibal savages who speak in nonse languages....hence why you don't see that anymore

"all that and rabit stew" a Warner Brothers short is a funny cartoon where bugs bunny messes with a black Elmer Fudd...an incredibly racist portrayl of a black elmer fudd nobody intended it to be racist...they just didn't see the problem with protraying black people as slow witted charichature in a time where black people were opressed.

[quote/]is Social Justice Warriors, people who feel like they don't have enough to ***** about in their life, so they have to go finding reasons.

thankyou for telling me why I have thease issues...no doubt you know exactly what youre talking about

[quote/]or the one who thinks that by getting mad at a game not having enough women, women will like him.[/quote]
you know thats its not impossible for a dude to see the short end of the stick women get in media...

[quote/]Not saying there aren't some who are well meaning, but for the most part, it tends to be these people who blow things out of the water.[/quote]
[i/]"hence why I can dismiss any and all criticsim!"[/i]

[quote/]Good rule of thumb: If the party that's being "offended" is not you, or anyone you know/love (Addendum: If they are not offended, this still applies), shut up.[/quote]
right so I best not point out if I think a game has a negative veiw of black people...but I can cry bloody murder about framrates all day long can't I?
or hell feminism is only useful when applies to women you KNOW?


[quote/]I.E: White guy (sorry if it seems I'm targeting us, but hey, we're the ones who tend to do this) cries sexism over a game. (Say, Bayonetta). Girlfriend/sister/friend who is a girl see's no sexism, and is not offended. Shut up.
Edit: This applies more to "Sorceress in Dragons Crown is sexist!" and less to "Ubisoft saying women are to hard to code is bullshit."[/quote]
not everybody is going to agree on what they find sexist/not sexist regardless of gender, as much as I am people taking note on where they are coming from he doesn't have to get all his opinions from one person[/quote]

I know i'm being pedantic here, but the song you're referring to in fallout 3 is called Civilization, and actually dates back to the 4os rather than the 50s.

 

[scorptatious]

I definitely wouldn't mind there being more variety in video game protagonists. At least in the AAA portion of the industry.

At the same time, I don't really lose sleep over it.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

If that's not the epitome of white male privilege in the video game industry, then I don't know what is. Men can enjoy their hobby as the dominant and catered-to sex, AND they get to do whatever they want in their professional lives, whereas we women need to alter our entire lives in order to get what we want because the men in charge won't listen to us?

Forgive me for having an opinion while not being part of your "solution." I'm in my mid-30s and have already uprooted my entire career once. I have two bachelor's degrees and the student loan debt that accompanies that. Neither of them are in mathematics, engineering, CIS, or video game production (though I did take plenty of classes in 3D modeling during my first degree and even tutored statistics, brain anatomy, and neurology during my second). I'm not going back to school again simply for the chance to play some games that actually reflect my real-life experience as a woman.

This is just as bad as the people who say that we need to shut up about women's non-representation in gaming, and that we should go to war zones and politically volatile and disease-ridden parts of the world if we care about women's rights. If that's the case, then why doesn't every single male join the military to fight for the rights of everyone? Or do guys not care enough about global issues to play an active part in solving them? If you do, then please gather up all the money you can, travel to the problem area, and become a catalyst for change. Please stop giving a shit about first-world problems as long as anyone on this planet is starving, living in irradiated areas, beaten down by violently oppressive regimes, or whatever cause motivates you. After all, that's what you're telling us women to do.

It is not white male privaledge; that is an uncalled for, knee-jerk reaction. You don't need to take personal offence. You may not be part of the solution but the issue is that women en masse *choose*, of their own free will, to study humanities subjects, geography, literature, and dominate fields like nursing, primary education, midwifery, clerical/administrative and care roles. To blame men for this phenomenon is ludicrous. We as a gender have so much power that we dictate and control women's choices of career paths?

I'm just tired of the debate. Games used to be judged based on graphics, gameplay, sound and replayability but now it's like there's a new category of "Social Correctness" being tacked on. Every game is being critiqued through the eyes of sexism, discrimination and so on. Everything that can be said has been yet the complaining goes on and I don't care. I want to shoot aliens, outrace cars and blow stuff up. I'm tired of being called sexist for enjoying games or not caring about hot-button-topic du jour. I'm not personally sexist in the slightest (tho I loathe feminism and think it's a poisonous, sexist, anti-productive and outdated dogma).

I didn't play the Tomb Raider reboot, not because of Lara Croft but because I've seen it to be a game of QTEs. I won't be playing AssCreed Unity because it's an annual rehash of the same game and looks tedious. My FemShep saved Kaiden on Virmire because she loved him and my female Boss in SR3 owned in Steelport. Are there problem games which handle women poorly? Yes. Most of the time they suck anyway. Do I care? No. There are plenty of good games about. This issue has been done to death and I'm tired of it.

If people want to see women go into the games industry, the change has to come from girls choosing to do so. Blaming men for women choosing to pursue other career paths is unjust, unfair and untrue. Where is the call to have equal representation in construction, metal work, lorry/taxi driving, mechanics/electricians, all male dominated fields? Female game developers have to come from somewhere and they are not and the reason they are not is because women aren't choosing those career paths.

No one said anything about going to war zones or third world countries to campaign on real world issues. In the digital age of blogs, twitter, forums and social networks one can do so from the comfort of an arm/computer chair in the same way this issue has been...over and over. For every game you could name that you'd protest against for a reason, I'll name two where it either doesn't matter or is done "right". Press the issue as you choose; it won't make it less tedious, the dead horse less flogged or make me less tired of it.

 

[BakedSardine]

I'd be curious what those who complain about lack of representation in games (and I'm not saying there isn't) have actually done to try and change that? Have you tried getting into contact with game developers or have you simply ranted on a message board and to friends, hoping that there will be some spontaneous groundswell for changes to be made?

This is the fundamental problem with people trying to have issues (many of which are valid) addressed today. People somehow think "I'll chow them, I'll change my Twitter icon!!!" like that has an effect on anything. If you're not going to get ACTIVELY involved in changing things - staging protests, developing games yourself, etc. - you have basically two choices:

1) Vote with your wallet (aka NOT buying games that don't have whatever representation you're looking for) or
2) Do nothing (and I'd call ranting on a message board 'nothing' in the grand scheme of things)

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

Certainly not, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. You don't have to care about other people's hangups.

I'm not too bothered myself (partially because I tend to play strategy games where it's not such an issue), sure, I'd like to see a bit more variety but it would never stop me from buying a game. Personally I think the whole fucking argument is a massive distraction from what we should be talking about- getting some decent bloody writing in games and some well written characters. Variety is ultimately a part of that, but stressing out over whether Mario is sexist or whatever is a total waste of time.

It definitely doesn't help that the entire debate is full of self-righteous, passive-aggressive dicks, so it's very easy to get fatigued by it- especially as a white male pretty much anything you say on the matter has the bullshit caveat that your opinion doesn't matter.

 

[Ickorus]

Nope...you're perfectly normal. See, like many gamers you my friend exhibit the qualities of being narratively gender blind. That is, as far as the story goes you accept the people in the roles that the narrative puts them in regardless of gender, race or physical attributes. Game says shes a warrior.. so she's a warrior. Game says hes a wuss, so he's a wuss.
.

narrativly genderblind? oh please

OP just wanted his opinion validated, that opinin being "youre all being silly and should stop complaining" if he really didn'y care he wouldnt have made a thread about it

I agree with him on that note. Rather tired of hearing people whine and complain about something. You know old saying. Some people talk about a problem, others do something about a problem. Most people who talk about gnder equality and what not in games only talk.. very few of them actually you know, up and make games with female protagonists. I mean if you really consider it such a bad thing, grab a copy of RPG Mker and get to work.


Won't find that happening because you know, more fun to be outraged and fuming than it is to knuckle down and do some work

I get where you're coming from but the problem is that not everyone has the ability or inclination to get involved directly in game development. That said, there are a number of great female game devs out there and if you can't, won't or don't care to get involved directly these people are well worth supporting. (Ree Soesbee, lead writer for Guild wars is my favourite, she is an excelleby storyteller)

My problem is that people seem to be more interested in being outraged than they are in actually supporting the people and devs that do things right.

 

[happyninja42]

I dunno. Guys have told me that they find playing as female characters off-putting, and judging from the developers reluctance to put women in games, seems that they think guys would find it off-putting too. So, is it so crazy to imagine that girls would find playing as men (like almost all the time) off-putting?

This is me. It's not out of any discomfort about my sexuality or anything, it's that I put myself into my characters. I'm not just directing a guy through these adventures, I'm projecting myself into the adventure. So, since I'm a guy, I tend to want to play guys. Again, not because of "ew girls! gross!" or anything, it's more....*thinks on wording*....

Ok, when I'm given a choice in a game, I make that choice. And my thought process is that of a guy, so when I'm making my choice on how the story continues, it's from a male perspective. I don't know what it's like to be a woman, or to think like one. Yeah in a lot of ways we all think the same, but there is enough variation in how men/women view certain things, and what they put emphasis/importance on, to make (in my mind anyway) it difficult for me to "step into her shoes" when it comes to playing a game. Given the different choices me and my wife have made, when playing the same games is my basis for this opinion. When I've asked her why she picked a course of action that was different from the one I picked, she will frequently give a reason that is just something I wouldn't consider. She viewed character motivations differently than me, she felt more empathy for one character over another compared to me, etc.

If I'm playing a female, and still making my decisions as a guy, it feels....I think dishonest is probably too harsh a word, but it does feel like a disconnect to me. I don't feel like I'm genuinely playing the game "as a woman", that I'm just playing the game, and making choices in the game, as a guy with tits basically. Which to me personally is offputting. So yeah, if given the choice, I will play guys almost exclusively, simply because when I play I am the character I'm playing


Which I can totally empathize with from the other side of things as a female player. Having to always experience that disconnect when they're playing a male centric game isn't something that I think is very fun, or something I would really encourage. If the plot of the story isn't dependent on the gender being specific in some way (and I'm hard pressed to think of many stories that require the hero to be one gender or another), why not have the option?


Now, to be fair, it does make for some annoying bits of scriptwriting on the devs side. Either having to produce two seperate dialogue files (and thus double the space) Or doing what Bioware's done, and have the story just refer to the hero by their name and nothing more. This does make for some slightly odd dialogue at times, like making sure to never have any gender specific pronouns used (he, she, his, hers, etc). But that's fairly minor in the grand scheme of stuff to produce a game.

In the long run, I think it's in the game industries interest to be more gender inclusive with their protagonists, because it does increase the customer market for them in a lot of ways, ways that would far outweigh the extra costs needed to implement it.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

ak93]It seems that everyday people make a big deal out of gender equality in games.

Is it bad that I don't really care?

I didn't finish Mass Effect and think "Man, that game would have been better had there been more females".

Or play a chapter of The Walking Dead thinking "This would be better if Lee was Lea."

My point being, do people actually find a lack of female characters (playable and non) in games off putting?

Should I?

I'm not a girl, maybe that's part of the problem. Perhaps I would notice it more if I was.

I play a game for the game. The characters that come up in the game are part of that experience. Male and female. Do we really need a quota for either?

Not a terrible person, it just hasn't affected you yet or you just haven't been made very aware of it.

I didn't care about civil rights issues until I took a couple African American Lit courses in college and bassicaly "woke me up"... cause once you can identify this stuff happening it's impossible not to see it... Really maybe you're better off, ignorance is bliss.