Anime and Female characters (yes, this topic again)

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

yes, it's this type of topic again, No I am serious

basic abstract is that I feel that anime has some really good female characters but is so bogged down in fanservice and self-insert that it's problematic

The long version: Look, I'm a guy so I feel I can't classify myself as a feminist despite agreeing with the main points of equality of genders. If being a guy invalidates some of my views sorry.

First off, fan service and self inserts are not problematic, they sell well which is why they are continuously pumped out. Not that I'm a fan of either of them, especially the latter.

Secondly, yes you can be a feminist without being a woman. If you ask a tumblrina though you might get a different. The core of feminism is "equal rights for men and women", so if you're on board with that you can call yourself a feminist regardless of what today's 'modern' quasi-feminists say.

So, I ask anyone reading the post,

-What are some very good female characters in anime and why?
-What are some of the worst examples of fanservice or "waifu" characters and why?
-Do you think that fanservice and waifu characters are increasing or decreasing and why?
-Does anime have an issue with waifu charcters and fanservice?

Well first there's Holo of course as you've mentioned, a wise and powerful goddess. The there's the ever badass Revy and balalaika from Black lagoon. And of course Kill la Kill, which while smothered in fan service, does not get in the way of it's powerful characters.

As for waifus and fanservice, you could simply cast your gaze on any season anime list and point them out quite easily. I'm not gonna bother listing them because they're infinite. One show I give an exception to though is Highschool of the Dead. It's just filled with blatant fun and overtop stupidity. It's like if Micheal Bay was Japanese.

In the five years I've been watching anime, it's maintained about the same rate of waifus and fanservice.

It's not really an issue because it's not inherently bad. Some people can get sick of it from time to time (me included) but no one freaks out over it, they just go on to watch something else. The only people really taking 'issue' with it are hardcore rad-fems who take issue with everything in existence.

 

[SGT_Noobnuts]

-For very good and well written female characters I'd go with Miria from Baccano! because her block-headed nature and honest charm gets to me every time, The cast of Madoka Magica: (I don't count Rebellion) because of how well rounded each of them are, Mikasa from Attack on Titan: a pure badass with some serious psychological problems, Kino from Kino's Journey because she truly is the epitome of a excellently written female character and more people should watch the show, Tomoko from Watamote: Incredibly likeable and has relatable struggles that resonate with a lot of audiences.

-Worst examples of fan service? I'd say that category goes into shows like Aria the Scarlet ammo and No Game no Life. Complete self-insert roles with female characters that pretend to have deep and gripping personalities when really they are just waifu material and the perfect excuse to see them sexually objectified. Harems are atrocious too but at least they are up-front when it comes to their content and not claiming to be something more.

-As for the matter of fan service increasing or decreasing? I can't say. If I were to hazard a guess I would say that generally it would be around the same no matter what era that anime in general is released.

-Does anime have an issue with fan service and waifu's? I honestly can't say much to that either. It really depends on how the story is written and how the characters themselves are portrayed. I personally shrug off the whole idea of waifu's myself since I just say to myself "What some people see this character as a waifu, I see a character that I personally like a lot". But hey that's just me. I can understand why people would like the idea of a waifu but I personally don't care for it.

Though if I had to choose my waifu would be Speedwagon from JoJo's Bizarre Adventure

 

[Redryhno]

-There's tons of good female characters, the three main females in Kokoro Connect, they have varying degrees of good, but they're all worth watching, as well as some of the females from Haganai, then there's Kuroyukihime from Accel World, Deadman Wonderland, Mirai Nikki, even if pretty much everyone in it is in varying stages of mental break, FLCL, HotD has decent females despite the fanservice simply because of how it just took it and ran with it, Integra from Hellsing, nearly every female in FMA/:B, Gunslinger Girl, Is this a Zombie?, even if it has heavy harem elements, Linebarrels of Iron early on has good characters all around before it descends into horrible, but still funny, annoyance, My Bride is a Mermaid, Akane and Nabiki Tendo and Ukyo Kuonji from Ranma 1/2, even if anime is very much Harem, Nina Fortner from Monster, some of the girls from The World God only Knows, His and Her Circumstances, Wolf Children, Tiger and Bunny.

There's plenty of good anime that have equally good female characters, this is just off the top of my head and there's countless more I'm not thinking of from all the years I've been watching it. And having fanservice does not invalidate a character's strength, in some cases, it actually makes them a better character.

- I'd say alot of Harem anime does this, but that's kinda a staple of the genre, so I won't say anything from those. I'd say anything that has to do with sexualizing characters of any gender that's under the age of consent/smart enough to know what they're fucking doing(16 is the absolute lowest I will go before I start calling it awkward to outright wrong fanservice, and that requires a pretty damn thorough checklist for me to even consider it "okay")

- I'd say they're about the same as always, it's just Anime has become a bigger industry in the last 20-30 years in the west and so we've gotten to see more of it. If it's increasing, it just means that there's an increase in ALL types of anime, not just bad fanservicey anime.

-No more than action movies have a thing for fights, explosions, and bad one-liners, or period drama does with awkward romance and use of words that have changed meaning over the years, or even romantic comedies do with their fun, though incredibly repetitive, cycle. The only real difference is that anime characters are able to be put on body pillows, and overall are just better merchandised than other forms of media.

And waifus honestly are just a natural evolution of the medium's audience, we do it in the west too to a lesser degree with our shows/movies and the characters presented within. Do I think it's healthy to have that much of an obsession with a character? Not exactly, but I'd say it's better than stalking and raising altars to real-life celebrities because of who they play on tv.

 

[NiPah]

snip

One question, what is it about stuff like Aldnoah and Psycho Pass that you don't like? The tone is the type you don't like

For Aldnoah the first turn off is giant robots, it really breaks immersion for me to see them in anime. I will give it a try since it's sci-fi but giant robots don't have a good track record with me.
For Psycho Pass,

Spoiler

it's one of those anime I know I'll dislike because of how it deals with death, I just don't enjoy anime with lots of murder... especially side characters.

I'm also not a fan of the art direction, nor setting, nor character design... It's not a bad anime by any means but I personally have no interest in it.

Honestly to me murder and death is just another version of fan service, some anime handle it professionally and it fits with the story, it doesn't seem forced and works inside the setting.
Then sometimes an anime just offs a character because the story requires the main protagonist to be moody and have a driving force for a few episodes.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

snip

One question, what is it about stuff like Aldnoah and Psycho Pass that you don't like? The tone is the type you don't like

For Aldnoah the first turn off is giant robots, it really breaks immersion for me to see them in anime. I will give it a try since it's sci-fi but giant robots don't have a good track record with me.
For Psycho Pass,

Spoiler

it's one of those anime I know I'll dislike because of how it deals with death, I just don't enjoy anime with lots of murder... especially side characters.

I'm also not a fan of the art direction, nor setting, nor character design... It's not a bad anime by any means but I personally have no interest in it.

Honestly to me murder and death is just another version of fan service, some anime handle it professionally and it fits with the story, it doesn't seem forced and works inside the setting.
Then sometimes an anime just offs a character because the story requires the main protagonist to be moody and have a driving force for a few episodes.

If it's any consolidation, They do use more tactics in Aldnoah and Psycho Pass is not the type to go overly bloody like Elfen Lied.

But my opinion is my own and you make your choices

 

[lucky_sharm]

snip

One question, what is it about stuff like Aldnoah and Psycho Pass that you don't like? The tone is the type you don't like

For Aldnoah the first turn off is giant robots, it really breaks immersion for me to see them in anime. I will give it a try since it's sci-fi but giant robots don't have a good track record with me.
For Psycho Pass,

Spoiler

it's one of those anime I know I'll dislike because of how it deals with death, I just don't enjoy anime with lots of murder... especially side characters.

I'm also not a fan of the art direction, nor setting, nor character design... It's not a bad anime by any means but I personally have no interest in it.

Honestly to me murder and death is just another version of fan service, some anime handle it professionally and it fits with the story, it doesn't seem forced and works inside the setting.
Then sometimes an anime just offs a character because the story requires the main protagonist to be moody and have a driving force for a few episodes.

Wait, you don't like it because characters actually die? Doesn't it get tiresome when stories pretend that characters are in mortal danger when not a single important character gets killed by the end of it?

OT: The problem with the way female characters are written in anime is that writers have yet to grasp how to write them without substituting their personalities with tiresome stereotypes and cliches. More and more there's been a rising trend of anime starring lone self-insert male leads void of character or flaws alongside a cast of waifus, each appealing to different types of male desires, and lest we forget sister characters that want to fuck the main character.

I feel like thus far, Gen Butch (Psycho-Pass, Aldonoah Zero) has been one of the few directors who have grasped how to make well-rounded female characters, most of whom have their own identities, drive the plot on their own, and make actions independent of other characters.

Finally, fanservice isn't a bad thing so long as you know where to apply it properly. Unfortunately, there are many TV shows that masquerade as dramatic sagas (Sword Art Online, Chaika, more recently Rail Wars)that are utterly bloated with fetishy scenes and shameless pandering, and not to mention the barely present characterization for the cast.

 

[Directionless]

Fan service is what makes anime worth watching. It'll be a cold day in hell before i let you people take away my moe-chans, anti-gravity-boobed damsels and Black Hanekawas.

 

[lucky_sharm]

Fan service is what makes anime worth watching. It'll be a cold day in hell before i let you people take away my moe-chans, anti-gravity-boobed damsels and Black Hanekawas.

Honestly? I agree, fanservice is great, but only if belongs in the right place. Shows that are just dumb fun and unpretentious can have fanservice any time it wants, but for shows that attempt to have dramatic or epic themes should have fanservice only when the mood or tone is right for it.

 

[Colour Scientist]

yes, it's this type of topic again, No I am serious

basic abstract is that I feel that anime has some really good female characters but is so bogged down in fanservice and self-insert that it's problematic

The long version: Look, I'm a guy so I feel I can't classify myself as a feminist despite agreeing with the main points of equality of genders. If being a guy invalidates some of my views sorry.

If you feel have having a penis invalidates your opinion on the social issues women face, then congratulations you ARE a feminist

Wow, so just about any thread is fair game to get a cheap shot in, yeah?

 

[ObserverStatus]

-What are some very good female characters in anime and why?

My favorite female character from anime is Balalaika from Black Lagoon. Kinda weird how she could simultaneously be so hilarious and terrifying.

-What are some of the worst examples of fanservice or "waifu" characters and why?

That part of Elfen Lied where Mariko starts slamming Nana into the ground and her clothes randomly fly off. That was disturbing for none of the reasons the creators intended. I really wish I could unwatch that entire series now too be honest, just kept watching it because I thought it might get better.

-Do you think that fanservice and waifu characters are increasing or decreasing and why?

I don't really watch enough anime to say.

-Does anime have an issue with waifu charcters and fanservice?

The fanservice played no small part in ruining the second arc of Sword Art Online, so yes.

 

[Kingjackl]

I'm not much of an anime fan so I'm not sure I can answer the question with much authority. What I do know is that pretty much every anime or manga fan I've met in real life with the exception of my brother has been female. So while it's easy to dismiss a lot of anime as pandering or misogynist, clearly they must be doing something right to attract the fanbase they do.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I think there are quite a few good female characters. In addition to the ones already mentioned, how about Caska from Berserk? She was a very strong character and I don't remember any fan service.

Spoiler: Such a tragic, beautiful character. Just like the rest of them in this series pretty much.

If you've never read any of the series beyond what happens in the original anime. She loses her mind during the eclipse because she is violated by the man she loved (Griffith) in what is basically hell while the other man she loved, Guts, loses his eye and arm trying to rip away from demons to save her. After that she basically has the mind of an infant, and Guts has to decide whether to try and find a way to restore her sanity, or to blindly seek vengeance.

It's a horrible thing to see this strong, wonderful character be reduced to being mentally handicapped. But that's the point. The threat of sexual violence is omnipresent in Berserk but it's never fetishized. Rape is shown to be pretty much the worst thing you could ever do to someone. Guts was raped when he was young and it's shown to be one of the things that makes him so full of rage. And it's one of the things that keeps him from being able to have normal relationships with those around him later on.

Caska initially fell for Griffith because he helped stop her being raped when her family sold her. Griffith sold his body in pursuit of his dream and is seen scrubbing his skin off trying to feel clean again at one point.

I'm gonna have to say some bad things now, but I classify Caska as little more than a love interest/revenge motivation. She's not a bad character, but there's really very little to her. It's also a bit questionable that initially she's this uber *****, but as soon as she starts to get feelings for Guts she becomes all shy and girly in her mannerisms. Which you wouldn't expect from someone who's this harded fighter that's been around just guys for years. And seriously, how many times can this girl drop off a cliff?

I say this mainly because I feel there's another female character from the same series who is way more interesting. And I hope you can guess.

 

[Ratty]

I think there are quite a few good female characters. In addition to the ones already mentioned, how about Caska from Berserk? She was a very strong character and I don't remember any fan service.

Spoiler: Such a tragic, beautiful character. Just like the rest of them in this series pretty much.

If you've never read any of the series beyond what happens in the original anime. She loses her mind during the eclipse because she is violated by the man she loved (Griffith) in what is basically hell while the other man she loved, Guts, loses his eye and arm trying to rip away from demons to save her. After that she basically has the mind of an infant, and Guts has to decide whether to try and find a way to restore her sanity, or to blindly seek vengeance.

It's a horrible thing to see this strong, wonderful character be reduced to being mentally handicapped. But that's the point. The threat of sexual violence is omnipresent in Berserk but it's never fetishized. Rape is shown to be pretty much the worst thing you could ever do to someone. Guts was raped when he was young and it's shown to be one of the things that makes him so full of rage. And it's one of the things that keeps him from being able to have normal relationships with those around him later on.

Caska initially fell for Griffith because he helped stop her being raped when her family sold her. Griffith sold his body in pursuit of his dream and is seen scrubbing his skin off trying to feel clean again at one point.

I'm gonna have to say some bad things now, but I classify Caska as little more than a love interest/revenge motivation. She's not a bad character, but there's really very little to her. It's also a bit questionable that initially she's this uber *****, but as soon as she starts to get feelings for Guts she becomes all shy and girly in her mannerisms. Which you wouldn't expect from someone who's this harded fighter that's been around just guys for years. And seriously, how many times can this girl drop off a cliff?

I say this mainly because I feel there's another female character from the same series who is way more interesting. And I hope you can guess.

I disagree with that interpretation but I was fully expecting someone to have it. I think she was fleshed out enough to make her more than a plot device. Her motives were clear in how she acted to Guts. She didn't know Guts and was untrusting of him at first. As well she might be given her previous family history, the tight-knit family nature of the Hawks and how Guts came to join them. And she was also jealous of the attention Griffith paid Guts. Right up until the eclipse she had conflicting emotions, and it was shown she probably would have left Guts and stayed with Griffith to take care of him.

My guess for which female character you find more interesting would be Farnese, though it might be Schierke.

 

[Someone Depressing]

- Yotsuba To's title character. She isn't played for fanservice (being four years old does not gaurantee that in anime), she's just a hyperactive, cute child. Azumanga Daioh qualifies. There are lots, but I'm trying to name a few off the top of my head.

- High School of The Dead. I don't mind ecchi, and while I think HSTD had some potential - the characters are at least likable, sort of - just...

Boobs. Are. Not. Sacks. Of. Fat. You can not turn a boob in on itself, so that the nipple is touching the top of the boob, at least not without a fair amount of pain, and breathing should not make them give you a serious concussion. Yet the animators do this all the time. Why? They are idiots who can't draw basic female anatomy. Which is a shame, because the animation is actually quite gorgeous in a few scenes.

I don't mind fanservice. I don't mind bishies, improbable, but possible sexy poses, or sparkles while people make out, or everyone having the same perfect, gorgeous face. But it's when such a blatant disregard for human anatomy is played up as sexy that pisses me off to no end.

Spoiler: For example...

Pretty girl with nice legs = sexy. The elf brings out all the good points of Kamitani's art style.

Gross abomination with a rubber spine that looks like a woman if you squint. Brings out all the bad points in Kamitani's style.

- I think waifus are something that you're just going to get. I don't mind them; if someone wants printed pillows of adorable girls with big eyes, good for them. But, it does remind me of an unfunny joke from one of Kouji Kumeta's manga...

Time-manipulating or time travelling beings dating normal people:

4d -> 3d

So a normal person having a waifu is like:

3d -> 2.

Ok, it was funny in context.

- Unlike western animation, anime is aimed at all ages, and all demographics, to the point where manga are categorised, not on genre - though there is overlap - but on age group.

So there's going to be fanservice, based primarily on what it's being marketed to. I think there's fanservice where fanservice is supposed to be. Obviously, fanservice does tend to consume certain shows, to the point where you're only there to see the nudity, as is the case with HSTD, where, despite the great animation and decent characterisation, you're there for the camel toe and improbably bouncing boobies.

I do think that decent shows end up getting engorged with fanservice, to the point where that's all it's known for and watched for, and that's pretty sad, as it's often beyond the original mangaka's control.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I disagree with that interpretation but I was fully expecting someone to have it. I think she was fleshed out enough to make her more than a plot device. Her motives were clear in how she acted to Guts. She didn't know Guts and was untrusting of him at first. As well she might be given her previous family history, the tight-knit family nature of the Hawks and how Guts came to join them. And she was also jealous of the attention Griffith paid Guts. Right up until the eclipse she had conflicting emotions, and it was shown she probably would have left Guts and stayed with Griffith to take care of him.

Like I said, she's not a bad character, I just feel her only purpose is to reveal interesting aspects of Guts and Griffith's personality.

My guess for which female character you find more interesting would be Farnese.

Bingo! Though she was ultimately ruined after the Tower of Conviction arc.

 

[Mr.Squishy]

-Tomoko (Watamote), Motoko (Ghost in the Shell), Rika (Higurashi no naku koro ni), Tenko (Wagaya no Oinari-sama)
-Can't seem to remember any specific instances at the moment
-I'm not sure. It's been this way a long time, far as I seem to remember. So basically a 'maybe?'
-Probably, but I don't feel like that's going to go away anytime soon.

 

[Ishal]

-Revy and Balalaika of Black Lagoon. The rest are filthy peasants.
-For the rest... fuck us running sideways; you gotta dig and dig to get the good shit.

This

Especially Balalaika. You'd be hard pressed to find a more trope defying character in anime, especially since she's a female. Forget Shinji.


OT: The anime industry has built an entire genre focussed on pandering to the otaku culture. Now, due to a shrinking audience, and fall in revenue, it's become dependent on it. And that, as Miyazaki put it, before he was shouted down, is not good at all. It's not good for the subject matter of the anime, and it's not good for the quality. The otaku crowd in Japan constantly complains about poor voice acting. Of course, when your industry is increasingly populated by reject Idols under 25, and veteran VA's (especially female ones) who know what they're doing get shunted off into minor roles or dropped altogether, that happens.

The industry doesn't seem to be in a good place at all. With it's insular vision, outsourcing of studio work to studios in Korea, and a growing animation industry in China, they need to shape up quick. And the answer is not Kill La Kill. Just because it's taking the piss doesn't make it any better.

 

[Hochmeister]

Not going to bother giving examples as most of the good and bad have already been brought up. Though I should note that even if a series isn't chock full of gratuitous fanservice, that doesn't automatically mean its female characters are good cough*Naruto*cough.

While I quite enjoy my boobs, butts, and moeblobs in anime, I do think it's a problem in the industry and that it's getting worse. As an example, a couple of months ago I visited home and wanted to find something I could watch with my kid brothers (ages 8 and 12), and realized that well over 90% of the shows I could come up with weren't things I'd want them to see, much less my mother. Out of this season alone, only two out of the ~ten shows I'm following (Stardust Crusaders & Aldnoah.Zero) don't pander to the male audience. It's not that fanservice or designing characters to appeal to guys is wrong; all media will always do that to some extent to both genders. It's not even unique to anime, for example I just saw Guardians of the Galaxy this weekend, and while a great movie the green and pink alien chicks were definitely used as fanservice. However, fanservice is far more widespread and blatant in anime with most shows coming out these days containing multiple female characters each designed to fill specific fetishes and numerous scenes where they're stripped, groped, tied up, bathing, or otherwise sexualized. Again, nothing wrong with this in principle, but the problem is it's practically everywhere and sometimes I just want to watch giant robots beat eachother up without being titillated or worrying if my roommates will think I'm watching porn in the living room. Additionally, the more fanservice there is the less effective it is at getting a rise out of the viewer; past a certain threshold it just gets repetitive and annoying.

This is just my perspective, but I think its been getting worse over the past decade or so. The percentage of shows designed as fanservice has increased, as has the amount of fanservice within them. For example, compare the fanservice in Full Metal Panic to Valvrave or Buddy Complex, or Those Who Hunt Elves to High School DxD. As others have pointed out the industry is becoming increasingly reliant on the single male demographic, which is causing it to become inbred and less attractive to people outside said target demographic. It's not a very healthy model for the industry or for the people watching anime. Still, it's not completely terrible. Good shows are still made, and there's 30 years worth of old material to look through to find good stuff to watch. Eventually this like all other trends in entertainment will oversaturate or fizzle out and something new will take its place.

 

[Ratty]

Like I said, she's not a bad character, I just feel her only purpose is to reveal interesting aspects of Guts and Griffith's personality.

Well it is important to remember that the story is mainly about Guts and Griffith and how these two men react to "fate". In that regard I don't think Casca is more a side character than the others. Though it would be easy to dismiss her because her mental illness has left her largely helpless that wasn't always the case. And even in this state she is shown to have a bond with her child that Guts does not.

My guess for which female character you find more interesting would be Farnese.

Bingo! Though she was ultimately ruined after the Tower of Conviction arc.

Ruined? I'd say Farnese evolved as a character and matured as a person with (very extreme) experience.

 

[carnex]

Best female characters in Anime. Oh, well, I'm old school. Real old. Didn't watch anything new for almost a decade.

Matoko Kusansgi - Ghost in the shell - god damn, awesome. Well, she really doedn't have equall as far as I see it but lets go down some other characters I like

Rally Vincent - Gunsmith Cats - she's almost a female Sledge Hammer, what's not to like there

Leona Ozaki (Dominion Police) and Lina Inverse (Slayers) I lump them together since they have similar design ideas. Not that attractive compared to other females in series, manipulative, abusive etc but highly likable and idealistic.

Deunan Knute - Appleseed - just overall nice female character which is a rare sight in anime

Yukishiro Tomoe - Rurouni kenshin Trust and Betrayal - Yes she is as passive as a lump of steel yet somehow you feel every single tiny inner battle she has in her hart. Never have I seen such a plight of a woman in anime without any actual violence towards her (well she did lose her fioncee and that ending but you know what I mean).

there are more but that's off top of the mind