Anime and Female characters (yes, this topic again)

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

-Revy and Balalaika of Black Lagoon. The rest are filthy peasants.
-For the rest... fuck us running sideways; you gotta dig and dig to get the good shit.

This

Especially Balalaika. You'd be hard pressed to find a more trope defying character in anime, especially since she's a female. Forget Shinji.


OT: The anime industry has built an entire genre focussed on pandering to the otaku culture. Now, due to a shrinking audience, and fall in revenue, it's become dependent on it. And that, as Miyazaki put it, before he was shouted down, is not good at all. It's not good for the subject matter of the anime, and it's not good for the quality. The otaku crowd in Japan constantly complains about poor voice acting. Of course, when your industry is increasingly populated by reject Idols under 25, and veteran VA's (especially female ones) who know what they're doing get shunted off into minor roles or dropped altogether, that happens.

The industry doesn't seem to be in a good place at all. With it's insular vision, outsourcing of studio work to studios in Korea, and a growing animation industry in China, they need to shape up quick. And the answer is not Kill La Kill. Just because it's taking the piss doesn't make it any better.

A few things

One: really, Japanese otaku are complaining about VA quality? I usually find them good and while the new crop isn't spectacular, it's kind of hard for a new person to match Tomokazu Sugita, Nakamura Yuuichi, Saito Chiwa or Rie Tanaka given how long they have been doing it. I would think that it would require time and a more formalized form of training.

Two: yeah, subject matter really has gone down a bit and with stuff like Aldnoah being more and more rare, it's kind of concerning.

Three: Kill la Kill may not be an answer but it still is a show that at least tries to integrate the fanservice into the plot and play it over the top. If we have to live with fanservice, I would rather have a show like Kill la Kill than say High school of the dead

 

[NiPah]

Spoiler

snip

One question, what is it about stuff like Aldnoah and Psycho Pass that you don't like? The tone is the type you don't like

For Aldnoah the first turn off is giant robots, it really breaks immersion for me to see them in anime. I will give it a try since it's sci-fi but giant robots don't have a good track record with me.
For Psycho Pass,

Spoiler

it's one of those anime I know I'll dislike because of how it deals with death, I just don't enjoy anime with lots of murder... especially side characters.

I'm also not a fan of the art direction, nor setting, nor character design... It's not a bad anime by any means but I personally have no interest in it.

Honestly to me murder and death is just another version of fan service, some anime handle it professionally and it fits with the story, it doesn't seem forced and works inside the setting.
Then sometimes an anime just offs a character because the story requires the main protagonist to be moody and have a driving force for a few episodes.

Wait, you don't like it because characters actually die? Doesn't it get tiresome when stories pretend that characters are in mortal danger when not a single important character gets killed by the end of it?

Not a lot of impending threats of death in K-on and Tari Tari. With Psycho Pass it mainly came down to

Spoiler

Yuki. I know it fits within the story, I know the anime deals with death, but I also knew that scene would bug the shit out of me.

 

[(name here)]

I personally don't terribly mind fanservice and don't think it's ruining anime. Sure, I sigh when I see yet another "fall and grope chest" moment, and some of the outfits get just plain silly, but it has to get really egregious to ruin things for me. I do not believe it particularly hurts the overall story quality. It can just happen during the story. It is out of place in particularly dark stories, but those aren't the only kind.

 

[Casual Shinji]

My guess for which female character you find more interesting would be Farnese.

Bingo! Though she was ultimately ruined after the Tower of Conviction arc.

Ruined? I'd say Farnese evolved as a character and matured as a person with (very extreme) experience.

I liked her when she was fucked up. She had such an interesting backstory, and from her behaviour early on it really seemed like she could go either way. I loved that duality.

Now as time went on I could see she would be redeemed, but this almost instantly turned her into the usual 'can I find my inner strength' side character, like Orihime from Bleach. And I mean, this is a girl who mastrubated while thinking of people burning alive at the stake, and got sexual pleasure out of lashing herself with a whip in the name of piety. You'd think these problems would run pretty deep and wouldn't just resolve themselves literally overnight.

And then she just casually picks up magic, when you'd think she would have an extreme reserve toward it, as well as it making Schierke's own power less special since apparently anyone can just do it.

But then to me the entire series took a big dive in quality after the Tower of Conviction arc. The whole chapter with the trolls was still pretty cool, mainly because we see get you-know-who try enter the physical world. But once that's done it all just goes bad.

 

[werewolfgold]

-What are some very good female characters in anime and why?
-What are some of the worst examples of fanservice or "waifu" characters and why?
-Do you think that fanservice and waifu characters are increasing or decreasing and why?
-Does anime have an issue with waifu charcters and fanservice?

Edit: if possible I would like people to give more than one sentence answers to what I'm asking, maybe add something in about the culture of japan or trope analysis. Just asking

I've been living in Japan for a few years now, so I've gotten real up close and personal with some of these issues unfortunately.

For me, I think that fanservice has its place. The problem is when A. female characters are terribly fanservice-y in addition to being horribly written or ineffectual (while the men aren't), or B. unfitting fanservice overtakes any and all plot points in a given show when the plot would stand on its own even without it. I've found that even if male fanservice is employed to some degree, the characters will still be fleshed out characters and have a stake in moving the plot forward. And it is also possible to have a non-fanservice-y female that is still pretty damn useless and offensive to womankind in general. And then there seem to be shows that are supposedly marketed to females that STILL have useless female characters or practical none at all even. I dunno what's up with that. But the problem does kind of extend past anime and into how men in Japan tend to view women and their place in society.

Now down to the questions.
1. Some "good" female characters (being fleshed out and actually serving a purpose in the story) involve shows such as Ghost in the Shell, Psycho-Pass, Fullmetal Alchemist, Kill la Kill, Akame ga Kill, Blood+, CANAAN, Claymore, Coppellion, Jormungand, Valkyria Chronicles, Witch Craft Works, Witchblade (trust me), Binbougami ga!!, Nodame Cantabile, A Certain Magical Index/Scientific Railgun, Inuyasha, Bleach (to a point), Soul Eater, Captain Earth (to a point), Naruto (to a point), ~Monogatari, Coffin Princess Chaika, Tokyo ESP, and others. Now, these shows are not devoid of any and all fanservice. However, it is quite clear just by watching the shows that these are -actual characters- and not just props to fap to.

2. "Bad" examples (falling under points A or B as I outlined earlier): Momo-kyun Sword (kill it with fire), Highschool DxD (while the plot is there, the show was clearly not made with that in mind), Highschool of the Dead (I often let this one go because it comes of as self-parody really), My Sister Has Been Acting Strange Lately (KILL IT WITH ALL OF THE HELLFIRE), I Want To Be The Strongest In The World, The World God Only Knows, Rail Wars, and then 80% of all harem anime or dating sims being made into anime.

Now, this list clearly isn't as long as my other one as I try to avoid most complete trash. But the thing is, even if a show may not be totally egregious, they'll still re-use the same hot springs episode, someone getting groped (99% chance of it being female), or someone getting exposed in the shower or something (97% chance of it being female).

Also, basically every other show that I could name falls under "not completely terribad in terms of transgressions against female characters, but the female characters are so not present compared to the male characters that the shows aren't worth putting into the discussion". Like, say, Dragonball Z or something. Naruto is borderline in this category, too. Even speaking as a dude, I think this is actually what my biggest complaint would be and may be a bigger problem than just outright too much fanservice or something. Because sometimes it ends up being "front-and-center, hyper-sexualized girl with questionably short skirt" or "kind of meh supporting girl (to the male main character)" in a given anime season.

3. Are these characters on the rise? Maybe. It kind of seems like it. The problem seems to be that even though "good" characters exist, these are not the characters being plastered on the sides of buildings and billboards or on posters in Akihabara. These are not the things advertised when you walk into a given anime store. Fanservice sells. It really does. Even characters that are technically awesome get advertised as a blow-up doll from time to time. Gotta sell them figures. So, I think that there is a "visibility" problem, so to speak.

4. Is there a problem? It's getting there, I think. The visibility problem in the way people advertise for these shows is a huge issue because the "sexy" aspects of something begin to override everything else. I think it may be getting to a point where the industry thinks that that's all that anime fans want to see, though. A lot of companies are taking the "easy money" route. Many of the "good" shows that I listed are getting on in years...

I've largely talked mainly about "fanservice" but the concept of "waifu" is a little more ambiguous. I tend to give the side-eye to shows that seem to only have a cast of cute, big-eyed, all-female characters even when a male character would make sense somewhere. But, those characters could be funny, interesting, well-written, whatever. It's likely still pandering at the rate these shows are being cranked out, though.

I think that things would improve if people would focus on telling a good story with interesting characters first, with maybe some awkward sexual humor if it makes sense. Rather than trying to placate people with boobs, and then trying to cobble together some plot that kind of fits after the fact. That and maybe adapting the idea that women don't have to be secondary to men every single damn time.

 

[SacremPyrobolum]

You know, maybe the reason the Japanese have things like the Highschool of the Dead boob-matrix scene isn't because they find it arousing, but rather because they find boobs to be fucking hilarious. Like how we find dicks.

 

[List]

~First of all you must understand that the vast majority of anime first came as manga, and unlike games w/c have creative teams, these are are made by single authors. Fanservice and "waifu" characters mainly come from male authors. Female authors have less sexualized females characters (full metal alchemist, reborn, ouran, etc.)

~Second, the japanese seem to categorize their works according to the genre as well as the "target audience" (shounen, shoujo, etc.), and surprise! surprise!, waifu charcters almost always come from shounen manga. And there are fanservice manga for all target audiences. (females recently got a season 2 for "free")


-What are some very good female characters in anime and why?
good example for not sexualized characters from FMA
akame ga kill for recent ones

-What are some of the worst examples of fanservice or "waifu" characters and why?
Anything from a harem anime, the worst i can think of are magical girl anime that seem to target male audiences(naked transformations etc.)

-Do you think that fanservice and waifu characters are increasing or decreasing and why?
depends season to season

-Does anime have an issue with waifu charcters and fanservice?
Depends on the genre aswell

 

[Dr. Cakey]

These threads always ruin my mood for some reason, I don't know why... oh wait, I do! It's pretty much people saying every anime I enjoy is nothing but trash.

These threads ruin my mood, too, but for the opposite reason: seeing cascades of characters I despise. Perhaps I'm biased, as I tend to find it difficult to find the good in shows I even mildly dislike. Do I think Casca, Makoto, and Revi because I didn't like Berserk, Ghost in the Shell, and Black Lagoon, for example, or are they just bad characters?

I also find Highschool of the Dead an awful go-to example for this kind of thing. I mean, it's just so silly. There's a reason JesuOtaku's (now rather old) review of it boiled down to "this show is terrible, I recommend it anyway". Compare the on-the-nose absurdity of HSOtD to more insidious things like SAO, Black Bullet, Aoki no Arpeggio, Clannad, or perhaps Akame ga Kill (I think it's debatable whether or not Akame has characters) and the difference, I think, becomes fairly obvious.

Oh, uh...Utena, Nanami, and Juri from Utena, basically everybody in Madoka, Saki from Shinsekai Yori, and Senjougahara, Hanekawa, and maybe Kanbaru from the Monogatari series.

 

[Twintix]

You know, maybe the reason the Japanese have things like the Highschool of the Dead boob-matrix scene isn't because they find it arousing, but rather because they find boobs to be fucking hilarious. Like how we find dicks.

This is one of my thoughts too. I don't think the Matrix boobs scene was meant for fanservice. It's too ridiculous to be.

OT:
- Well-written females: Well, I'm quite fond of Ran from Detective Conan. She's feminine without being portrayed as incapable, a problem which I feel is seen in all kinds of media. And Haibara is all kinds of cool. A hint of tsundere, but mostly snark. And she loves animals.
As a series overall, I also feel that DC is extremely low on fanservice overall. I guess there are some moments that qualify, but they are few and very far between. And some are played for laughs. No gratuitous panty-shots anywhere. The beach episodes hardly feel fanservicy to me, though I guess they can be interpreted as that.

- Badly-written females: Pretty much any harem anime. They almost always resort to cookie-cutter personalities and feel bland and unpersonal.

- Waifu characters: I don't think they're increasing or decreasing. I just think that they're a lot more accessible.

- Issues: As a whole? Eeeh, nah. I just think thay we see more of the bad examples. Anime is quite a large medium, after all.

 

[Cavouku]

My problem with anime is that I could never really find guys that weren't either so bland and boring, or over-the-top troperiffic (I don't mind tropes, but troperiffic is when something is so tropey that it might as well be the picture for their trope) that I can't care about them or anything their doing to any respectable extent.

There's certainly issues with women being sexualized, but at least they get to do stuff. Obviously I'm watching the wrong animes, and I know that, but I just speaking from the stuff I've watched, I've seen very few guys that were... I dunno, believable. I've actually seen plenty of women. I guess for reference, here's a short list of stuff I've watched.

Cowboy Bebop (I actually do like the guys in this one, but Bebop is the exception for a lot of things in anime, I find), To Love-Ru (this one's my fault), Monogatari Series (Koyomi isn't bad, but he's got classic "MC can't solve any of his own problems" syndrome, most of the time), The World God Only Knows (friends made me do this one. I find Keima's competency and genre-savvy a bit refreshing, but he's still an insufferably strong example of an otaku-elitist), A Certain Magical Index/Scientific Railgun (To be fair, haven't seen much of this one, but MC's blandness kinda chews my brain up from the 5 or so episodes I've seen him in). I've read a lot more manga than I've seen animes, but I won't get into those.

Overall, as far as characters go, I can find a lot more relatable females than males, usually because the males in the anime I've seen end up being in a minority. This is often for the sake of having a host of females for "viewers to choose from", I guess, but the range helps in the diversity, and ends up delivering.

Again, this is my fault. I haven't tried to get into a new anime in a while, and a lot of the ones my friends are into involve harem-style set ups that I just get sick of/have gotten sick of. I don't wanna hear recommendations, because I'm not gonna watch 'em, but I am fully willing to admit my experience is limited.

I just feel like chatting this month.

 

[Ratty]

My guess for which female character you find more interesting would be Farnese.

Bingo! Though she was ultimately ruined after the Tower of Conviction arc.

Ruined? I'd say Farnese evolved as a character and matured as a person with (very extreme) experience.

I liked her when she was fucked up. She had such an interesting backstory, and from her behaviour early on it really seemed like she could go either way. I loved that duality.

Now as time went on I could see she would be redeemed, but this almost instantly turned her into the usual 'can I find my inner strength' side character, like Orihime from Bleach. And I mean, this is a girl who mastrubated while thinking of people burning alive at the stake, and got sexual pleasure out of lashing herself with a whip in the name of piety. You'd think these problems would run pretty deep and wouldn't just resolve themselves literally overnight.

And then she just casually picks up magic, when you'd think she would have an extreme reserve toward it, as well as it making Schierke's own power less special since apparently anyone can just do it.

But then to me the entire series took a big dive in quality after the Tower of Conviction arc. The whole chapter with the trolls was still pretty cool, mainly because we see get you-know-who try enter the physical world. But once that's done it all just goes bad.

I would like to see her be more remorseful about her past life, maybe we'll get to that at some point. It's been a while but I don't remember it being said that just anyone could learn to wield positive magic. Farnese's inborn talent for it could ironically be one of the things that drove her to be such a twisted inquisitor.

I think that since the initial troll story the book has perhaps gotten a bit too lighthearted, but I understand why this is necessary from a storytelling perspective. If you're completely grimdark for too long you risk slipping into self-parody, or what feels like self-parody. And Guts needs to have something to lose again. He needs good people who depend on him. I have a feeling the big question of the series might be "Was the sacrifice of the original Falcons[footnote]Since it looks like "Band of the Falcon" is what we should have been calling them this whole time, go figure.[/footnote] justified if it creates a kind of utopia for the rest of humanity?"[footnote]Or Falconia could be a giant Admiral Ackbar, who knows?[/footnote] Guts needs to be more than a lone, crazed animal when he goes after Griffith for the showdown to have weight. I'm wondering if any of his new friends will survive to see the final battle. Assuming we live to see it at these update rates lol.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

These threads always ruin my mood for some reason, I don't know why... oh wait, I do! It's pretty much people saying every anime I enjoy is nothing but trash.

These threads ruin my mood, too, but for the opposite reason: seeing cascades of characters I despise. Perhaps I'm biased, as I tend to find it difficult to find the good in shows I even mildly dislike. Do I think Casca, Makoto, and Revi because I didn't like Berserk, Ghost in the Shell, and Black Lagoon, for example, or are they just bad characters?

I also find Highschool of the Dead an awful go-to example for this kind of thing. I mean, it's just so silly. There's a reason JesuOtaku's (now rather old) review of it boiled down to "this show is terrible, I recommend it anyway". Compare the on-the-nose absurdity of HSOtD to more insidious things like SAO, Black Bullet, Aoki no Arpeggio, Clannad, or perhaps Akame ga Kill (I think it's debatable whether or not Akame has characters) and the difference, I think, becomes fairly obvious.

Oh, uh...Utena, Nanami, and Juri from Utena, basically everybody in Madoka, Saki from Shinsekai Yori, and Senjougahara, Hanekawa, and maybe Kanbaru from the Monogatari series.

Perhaps my example was a bad example but it's much easier to get across the stupid of idiotic anatomy than something like say how SAO is not a good representation of women but I do get it.

Regardless I see why they can be considered detrimental given the fact that we are given a Gary sue who gets women around him though I'm not sure how Clannad fits into it.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I think that since the initial troll story the book has perhaps gotten a bit too lighthearted, but I understand why this is necessary from a storytelling perspective. If you're completely grimdark for too long you risk slipping into self-parody, or what feels like self-parody. And Guts needs to have something to lose again. He needs good people who depend on him. I have a feeling the big question of the series might be "Was the sacrifice of the original Falcons justified if it creates a kind of utopia for the rest of humanity?" Guts needs to be more than a lone, crazed animal when he goes after Griffith for the showdown to have weight. I'm wondering if any of his new friends will survive to see the final battle. Assuming we live to see it at these update rates lol.

It's not so much the lightheartedness that I have an issue with (though it does rob the story of the gravitas it used to have), but that the whole thing is slowly turning into kind of a shonen series. The biggest culprit being the Berserk armor, which grants Guts a win button for every fight. Guts was such an engaging character because he was fighting all these horrible demons on his own strength; He didn't have some magic curse that gave him power, he became powerful on his own due to years of strife and an insane mentality of never wanting to lose to anyone or anything brought on by a childhood trauma. The Berserk armor ruins that.

The other thing is that it's also taken on harem qualities, with both Farnese and Schierke having the hots for Guts. Just... urgh.

Actually the most intersting part of the story is the new Band of the Hawks. We obviously know Griffith's true colours, but he is achieving so much goodwill I even found myself wondering 'Maybe this isn't so bad'. He's saving everyone from the monstrous Kushan empire, and even forged an allegiance between the humans and the Apostles. I would rather have seen more of that than Guts and the gang fighting a giant squid monster for like 20 chapters.

At this point though I fear we will never see the end of this thing, and if we do it won't be all that good. It's become way too epic to wrap up in any satisfying way.

 

[verdant monkai]

basic abstract is that I feel that anime has some really good female characters but is so bogged down in fanservice and self-insert that it's problematic

Anyway, being an anime fan since 2000, I've noticed that we really have an issue with female characters. More often than not, we get characters and situations that are either there for pure fanservice

or are designed to be so perfect that I am inclined to call them Waifu material (Asuna definitely feels like that).

Now, I mentioned good female characters: I think that Lacus Clyne, Kouzuki Kallen and Holo the Wisewolf are well written female characters that, while they definitely have their TnA moments, have decent writing that carries them though a story.

So, I ask anyone reading the post,

-What are some very good female characters in anime and why?
-What are some of the worst examples of fanservice or "waifu" characters and why?
-Do you think that fanservice and waifu characters are increasing or decreasing and why?
-Does anime have an issue with waifu charcters and fanservice?

Edit: if possible I would like people to give more than one sentence answers to what I'm asking, maybe add something in about the culture of japan or trope analysis. Just asking

Are we complaining that the women are too airbrushed? because both genders are portrayed as cartoons, and no one wants to spend 5 years putting details and blemishes on a cartoon, so it's not really a gender issue.

The thing is people always complain about boobs and fan service but the thing is 9 times out of 10 you are watching Shonen anime, which is written by men typically for boys. What the fuck do you expect? Complaining about sexual themes in something for teenage boys is like complaining that there is meat in catfood. Seriously what do you expect?

-I think our ideas of what makes a good anime girl may differ. I like Satsuki from Kill la Kill (she may be almost naked but I liked her martial personality and super powers), and I like Jolyne kujo from JoJo's bizarre adventure.

-When you say Waifu, you realise that can cover literally any character in the entirety of anime? What people find cute/appealing is completely subjective. For example my Waifu is Optimus Prime. If I were to try though I'd just say any female character who has big boobs, is distinctly feminine (not some brawler) and has a caring or innocent personality. Like Hinata from Naruto or something, I don't know. I watch anime about huge men with huge muscles, that spend time killing each other not talking to waifus.

-I don't know. You find that sort of character in typically Moe blob style anime like Angel Beats or Girls und Panzer, and as I said I'm a fist of the north star kind of guy.

-No. People watching anime have an issue with waifu charcters and fanservice.

 

[Ratty]

I think that since the initial troll story the book has perhaps gotten a bit too lighthearted, but I understand why this is necessary from a storytelling perspective. If you're completely grimdark for too long you risk slipping into self-parody, or what feels like self-parody. And Guts needs to have something to lose again. He needs good people who depend on him. I have a feeling the big question of the series might be "Was the sacrifice of the original Falcons justified if it creates a kind of utopia for the rest of humanity?" Guts needs to be more than a lone, crazed animal when he goes after Griffith for the showdown to have weight. I'm wondering if any of his new friends will survive to see the final battle. Assuming we live to see it at these update rates lol.

It's not so much the lightheartedness that I have an issue with (though it does rob the story of the gravitas it used to have), but that the whole thing is slowly turning into kind of a shonen series. The biggest culprit being the Berserk armor, which grants Guts a win button for every fight. Guts was such an engaging character because he was fighting all these horrible demons on his own strength; He didn't have some magic curse that gave him power, he became powerful on his own due to years of strife and an insane mentality of never wanting to lose to anyone or anything brought on by a childhood trauma. The Berserk armor ruins that.

The other thing is that it's also taken on harem qualities, with both Farnese and Schierke having the hots for Guts. Just... urgh.

Actually the most intersting part of the story is the new Band of the Hawks. We obviously know Griffith's true colours, but he is achieving so much goodwill I even found myself wondering 'Maybe this isn't so bad'. He's saving everyone from the monstrous Kushan empire, and even forged an allegiance between the humans and the Apostles. I would rather have seen more of that than Guts and the gang fighting a giant squid monster for like 20 chapters.

At this point though I fear we will never see the end of this thing, and if we do it won't be all that good. It's become way too epic to wrap up in any satisfying way.

I see what you mean with the armor, but it does fit with the established mythology of the Skull Knight. I mean the risk of Guts literally losing his humanity needs to have some magical element to it the same way Griffith's did. It also fits with Guts character. Almost from the beginning one of his biggest enemies has been himself, his fits of illogical rage and his inability to control it. Just look at how he went crazy and started choking Casca right after their baby was conceived. Said baby is the only hope I have for a "good" ending btw. I'm afraid the most we can hope for Guts is that he dies, but remains human. Guts may be able to succeed where the Skull Knight has failed for centuries because he is still human.

I don't like that the armor seems to have taken on a life of its own to replace his own rage, but I think the intention was just to make the armor personify his inborn irrational anger. So that the metaphorical internal struggle could be illustrated.

I'm hoping that it doesn't become a shounen kind of set up as you suggest. Because while I've always loved Mermaids and Miura's take on them was beautiful the whole Island arc felt pretty pointless aside from adding Isma to the party. Who unfortunately looks like she's going to be Isidro's love interest/nosebleed giver. Though ugh I hope that's not the case, she seems like a fun character without all that crap. (To say nothing of the fact that she's way too young for "fanservice". So I hope her "oops I bent over in front of Isidro" thing doesn't actually become a "thing".) I agree we really don't need Farnese and Schierke fawning over Guts. Especially Shierke, at least Farnese going after Guts has the ability to create some tension because it makes Serpico jealous. Though we all know Guts will only ever have eyes for Casca.

But my hope for the immediate future of the story is that now that Isma has joined we can get on with it and get to Elfheim without further delay.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I see what you mean with the armor, but it does fit with the established mythology of the Skull Knight. I mean the risk of Guts literally losing his humanity needs to have some magical element to it the same way Griffith's did. It also fits with Guts character. Almost from the beginning one of his biggest enemies has been himself, his fits of illogical rage and his inability to control it. Just look at how he went crazy and started choking Casca right after their baby was conceived. Said baby is the only hope I have for a "good" ending btw. I don't like that the armor seems to have taken on a life of its own to replace his own rage, but I think the intention was just to make the armor personify his inborn irrational anger. So that the metaphorical internal struggle could be illustrated. I'm afraid the most we can hope for Guts is that he dies, but remains human. Guts may be able to succeed where the Skull Knight has failed for centuries because he is still human.

But this also ties into the symbolism which has gotten very blatant at this point. Guts has always been, well... berserk, but this was depicted by showing his crazed face -- There was never a need for some black dog thing. If Guts was going a bit loopy you could tell by his expression.

The Berserk armour fits in with the mythology, but it breaks Guts' character. The Skullknight works as a side character, because the dude is so fucking bad ass that if he was part of the team all the Apostles would just pack up and call it quits. Also, I hate the design for the helmet. Again, blatant symbolism, but it also makes Guts look really dumb when you can see his eyes through it. He literally looks just like Big Daddy from Kick-Ass, it's hysterical.

And yeah, the mystery kid/Guts and Caska's baby is obviously going to be the key to everything.

 

[Ratty]

I see what you mean with the armor, but it does fit with the established mythology of the Skull Knight. I mean the risk of Guts literally losing his humanity needs to have some magical element to it the same way Griffith's did. It also fits with Guts character. Almost from the beginning one of his biggest enemies has been himself, his fits of illogical rage and his inability to control it. Just look at how he went crazy and started choking Casca right after their baby was conceived. Said baby is the only hope I have for a "good" ending btw. I don't like that the armor seems to have taken on a life of its own to replace his own rage, but I think the intention was just to make the armor personify his inborn irrational anger. So that the metaphorical internal struggle could be illustrated. I'm afraid the most we can hope for Guts is that he dies, but remains human. Guts may be able to succeed where the Skull Knight has failed for centuries because he is still human.

But this also ties into the symbolism which has gotten very blatant at this point. Guts has always been, well... berserk, but this was depicted by showing his crazed face -- There was never a need for some black dog thing. If Guts was going a bit loopy you could tell by his expression.

The Berserk armour fits in with the mythology, but it breaks Guts' character. The Skullknight works as a side character, because the dude is so fucking bad ass that if he was part of the team all the Apostles would just pack up and call it quits. Also, I hate the design for the helmet. Again, blatant symbolism, but it also makes Guts look really dumb when you can see his eyes through it. He literally looks just like Big Daddy from Kick-Ass, it's hysterical.

And yeah, the mystery kid/Guts and Caska's baby is obviously going to be the key to everything.

I think after 25 years Miura has lost a lot of his former enthusiasm. But I believe I can see his intentions being good even if the execution is a bit wonky sometimes. I'm hoping that at least when Guts goes up against Griffith (if we ever get to see that) Guts has to discard the armor and face him as a completely fragile fully human being. Though if we get to Elfheim and the Elfking says that to cure Casca they need to collect the 7 DragonBalls of Fizzben I'm going to punch someone in the face. Probably myself.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

basic abstract is that I feel that anime has some really good female characters but is so bogged down in fanservice and self-insert that it's problematic

Anyway, being an anime fan since 2000, I've noticed that we really have an issue with female characters. More often than not, we get characters and situations that are either there for pure fanservice

or are designed to be so perfect that I am inclined to call them Waifu material (Asuna definitely feels like that).

Now, I mentioned good female characters: I think that Lacus Clyne, Kouzuki Kallen and Holo the Wisewolf are well written female characters that, while they definitely have their TnA moments, have decent writing that carries them though a story.

So, I ask anyone reading the post,

-What are some very good female characters in anime and why?
-What are some of the worst examples of fanservice or "waifu" characters and why?
-Do you think that fanservice and waifu characters are increasing or decreasing and why?
-Does anime have an issue with waifu charcters and fanservice?

Edit: if possible I would like people to give more than one sentence answers to what I'm asking, maybe add something in about the culture of japan or trope analysis. Just asking

Are we complaining that the women are too airbrushed? because both genders are portrayed as cartoons, and no one wants to spend 5 years putting details and blemishes on a cartoon, so it's not really a gender issue.

The thing is people always complain about boobs and fan service but the thing is 9 times out of 10 you are watching Shonen anime, which is written by men typically for boys. What the fuck do you expect? Complaining about sexual themes in something for teenage boys is like complaining that there is meat in catfood. Seriously what do you expect?

-I think our ideas of what makes a good anime girl may differ. I like Satsuki from Kill la Kill (she may be almost naked but I liked her martial personality and super powers), and I like Jolyne kujo from JoJo's bizarre adventure.

-When you say Waifu, you realise that can cover literally any character in the entirety of anime? What people find cute/appealing is completely subjective. For example my Waifu is Optimus Prime. If I were to try though I'd just say any female character who has big boobs, is distinctly feminine (not some brawler) and has a caring or innocent personality. Like Hinata from Naruto or something, I don't know. I watch anime about huge men with huge muscles, that spend time killing each other not talking to waifus.

-I don't know. You find that sort of character in typically Moe blob style anime like Angel Beats or Girls und Panzer, and as I said I'm a fist of the north star kind of guy.

-No. People watching anime have an issue with waifu charcters and fanservice.

To answer as much of each portion as possible

The issue is not airbrushing, its the lack of real character development. I don't mind the whole perfect skin thing that women in anime have but the personalities are fairly absent from these characters. Also, Code Geass is Shonen and Kallen is a much better female character than a lot of female characters. Just because the demographic is teenage boys doesn't meant that you can pander to us by giving us empty female characters with no personality, conflict, or usefulness in the plot. If a girl is only there to say "look, I have boobs", I will call bull.

I understand that fanservice does not exclude a character from being a good female character but 90% of the time, a female character with excess fanservice is only there to give boys wank material.

When I say "Waifu" I'm talking about a character that seems perfectly designed to make us think "I would love to be in a relationship with her" or "I wish she was real so that I can *bleep* her" without any real fault. SAO seems to be the perfect example to me since Asuna is designed to be a perfect wife: caring, feisty, good looking, loyal; the issue is made worse thanks to Kirito's Gary Sue status and the fact that every other girl that falls for him falls for him because of fairly bland or stupid reasons with no real time (Asuna has an excuse since they were friends for two years but it's not much of an excuse for the waifu baiting)

 

[verdant monkai]

To answer as much of each portion as possible

The issue is not airbrushing, its the lack of real character development. I don't mind the whole perfect skin thing that women in anime have but the personalities are fairly absent from these characters. Also, Code Geass is Shonen and Kallen is a much better female character than a lot of female characters. Just because the demographic is teenage boys doesn't meant that you can pander to us by giving us empty female characters with no personality, conflict, or usefulness in the plot. If a girl is only there to say "look, I have boobs", I will call bull.

I understand that fanservice does not exclude a character from being a good female character but 90% of the time, a female character with excess fanservice is only there to give boys wank material.

When I say "Waifu" I'm talking about a character that seems perfectly designed to make us think "I would love to be in a relationship with her" or "I wish she was real so that I can *bleep* her" without any real fault. SAO seems to be the perfect example to me since Asuna is designed to be a perfect wife: caring, feisty, good looking, loyal; the issue is made worse thanks to Kirito's Gary Sue status and the fact that every other girl that falls for him falls for him because of fairly bland or stupid reasons with no real time (Asuna has an excuse since they were friends for two years but it's not much of an excuse for the waifu baiting)

To be honest dude the males are equally devoid of personality as well, they are designed to be blank everymen so you can project yourself onto them, thats just the way a lot of this teenage anime is. The side characters are often the only ones with any real depth.

I think you just have a problem with Shonen anime mate. Why not watch more seinen anime stuff (age range of 17-40). You are completely right though. Huge tits aren't there to advance any plot, they are just to fuel wanks. I don't think anyone is disputing that, and to be honest I don't have any problem with it. Unlike a lot of people, I don't think that big tits are the worst thing to happen to women ever, and that the inclusion of them in anything means women are getting objectified. But thats obviously debatable and for another time. But as I said a lot of what you are talking about is just shonen anime tropes. Which don't necessarily bleed into other types of anime.

I've never watched Code Geass as I dislike mech anime, so I'm afraid those girls are lost on me. I have suffered through the first two seasons of SAO though (it should have ended after part 1), so using Asuna as an example I think I get what you mean with regards to a waifu. And I'm sorry but I don't know why you are saying this sort of shit might be getting worse. This is what Shonen anime is. Bland male leads to allow teenage male viewers to imprint on, and overly loving non threatening girls to simulate a desirable relationship. I don't think these characters are a problem, I don't think they're decreasing or increasing. I just think they are a fact of Shonen anime, and if you watch Shonen then you'll have to deal with it.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Do people not know what fun is anymore? Does everything have to be a depressingly realistic representation? Does it even have to be a representation? Why, if so? Why can't a game, or an anime (designed SPECIFICALLY AND EXCLUSIVELY for teenage MALES to enjoy) simply be what they are: entertainment. They aren't a documentary, a history lesson, a simulation of reality. They are eye candy with addictive game mechanics designed to trigger the release of endorphins so you'll enjoy the product you paid for, which will promote the fame of the company that designed it so they can become more popular and sell more copies of future games. THAT. IS. THE. TRUTH OF IT.

When I see a candy bar I don't ***** about why its not an Apple. I know what I am getting in for. You people need to stop looking at things CLEARLY designed to be enjoyed and forgotten about and stop wanting it to be The Godfather Part Duex. A lesson on humanity, a work of art.

Just have fun for GOSH SAKE. If you're not having fun, DON'T WHINE about something until it gets demonized, MOVE ON. Do things you actually enjoy, and stop trying to villainize people who *GASP* enjoy watching *GASP* anime or *GASP* a video game that shows bigger than normal boobs on a girl thats not *GASP* and never will *GASP* be real.

Captcha: Real Life Experience

EVEN THE 1's and 0's are on my side.

Perhaps you are right in that I need to just look for other shows

Oh wait, thats the problem, so many shows are just fanservice crap. Stuff like Aldnoah Zero, Psycho Pass and Ghost in the Shell are hard to find and I really do not like swimming through 10 tons of crap to find them

You like fanservice stuff fine but I really am sick of the pandering

They really aren't that hard to fine at all. Do you pay attention to directors/writers and genre tags? If you do it makes it very easy to spot which anime are ones to watch to see which ones will be the best and which ones are going to have pandering. Especially, with the pandering you can see that a mile away by looking at the picture of the show on season charts.

Most of the females in stuff like Jormungand, Fate/Zero, Psycho Pass off the top of my head

As for worst there really is no such thing unless they are either a fan service character that fails at this or a real character that ends up being this. I find it funny when people mention stuff like DxD and HotD in this category.

Year by year it has never noticeably gone up or down as far as I can see. Although, it can vary season to season.

As long as you pay attention to stuff like genre tags, key visuals and writers/directors no there is no problem. Anime generally makes it very obvious as to what you're going to get.

Also as a side note I don't think ecchi series generally have a point in these threads and I've said it before and I'll say it again that they don't. They are designed to fall short of softcore porn and that is it.