Anime and Female characters (yes, this topic again)

[GestaltEsper]

~First of all you must understand that the vast majority of anime first came as manga, and unlike games w/c have creative teams, these are are made by single authors. Fanservice and "waifu" characters mainly come from male authors. Female authors have less sexualized females characters (full metal alchemist, reborn, ouran, etc.)

~Second, the japanese seem to categorize their works according to the genre as well as the "target audience" (shounen, shoujo, etc.), and surprise! surprise!, waifu charcters almost always come from shounen manga. And there are fanservice manga for all target audiences. (females recently got a season 2 for "free")


-What are some very good female characters in anime and why?
good example for not sexualized characters from FMA
akame ga kill for recent ones

-What are some of the worst examples of fanservice or "waifu" characters and why?
Anything from a harem anime, the worst i can think of are magical girl anime that seem to target male audiences(naked transformations etc.)

-Do you think that fanservice and waifu characters are increasing or decreasing and why?
depends season to season

-Does anime have an issue with waifu charcters and fanservice?
Depends on the genre aswell

The tentacle magnet known as Chrome Dokuro disagrees. And then there was Adelheid.

 

[JimB]

What are some very good female characters in anime and why?

What would you say defines a good character? I ask because I think there's kind of a trap that even well-meaning feminists fall into of dismissing female characters for having feminine traits at all, like a motherly disposition (such as Moribito) or an interest in romance (I, er, actually can't think of a good example of this). So let's talk qualifications. What makes a good female character, and what disqualifies one from being good?

What are some of the worst examples of fanservice or "waifu" characters and why?

Every female character from Bleach.

Do you think that fanservice and waifu characters are increasing or decreasing and why?

Wouldn't know. My interest in anime is very limited.

Does anime have an issue with waifu charcters and fanservice?

Of course. The only argument is how big the problem is, and that's a completely subjective measure.

 

[Belated]

I question the implication that fanservice is bad. I thought the liberals won this debate with the church nearly a century ago. It's okay to be a sexual being, it's perfectly natural to fap, and it's okay to fantasize. Fantasies don't turn you into a rapist, and they certainly don't make you sexist. You don't choose what you're attracted to. And if you repress your sexuality, that's far worse for your health than exercising it has ever been. So fanservice is actually perfectly healthy to enjoy and look at, and you can have my fap material when you can pry it from my cold, dead, sticky hands.

So to answer op's questions:
-Revy, Yoko, Nausicaa, Panty. Four great strong female characters, some sexualized, some not, but that doesn't matter because the idea that sexual attraction and respect are mutually exclusive is a preposterous theory. I still respect them as characters regardless of whether or not I think they're beautiful.
-There are no "worst" examples. That's not to say that there aren't some weak characters who are just pure fanservice, but it's okay for those characters to exist because fanservice isn't bad.
-They're probably staying about the same, but the overtness of the fanservice is increasing. I've noticed panty shots in more recent anime have become more detailed than ever. And I love it.
-No, it doesn't have "an issue" because fanservice isn't wrong and therefore can't be an issue. There is still plenty of non-fanservicey, well-written anime if seeing big boobs really makes your head explode that much.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

What are some very good female characters in anime and why?

What would you say defines a good character? I ask because I think there's kind of a trap that even well-meaning feminists fall into of dismissing female characters for having feminine traits at all, like a motherly disposition (such as Moribito) or an interest in romance (I, er, actually can't think of a good example of this). So let's talk qualifications. What makes a good female character, and what disqualifies one from being good?

What are some of the worst examples of fanservice or "waifu" characters and why?

Every female character from Bleach.

Do you think that fanservice and waifu characters are increasing or decreasing and why?

Wouldn't know. My interest in anime is very limited.

Does anime have an issue with waifu charcters and fanservice?

Of course. The only argument is how big the problem is, and that's a completely subjective measure.

What I mean by good female charcters is that even if they have TnA, they have clear personalities, they can talk and do things because of their own convictions and not just because "I love this guy and he would want me to do it", and have some purpose in the plot other than TnA

For example, while Kallen has a lot of fanservice shots, she generally has strong convictions, a real internal conflict and has a purpose in the plot.

Lacus is very feminine and like Kira but she has a clear drive to end the Coordinator/earth war, has a clear personality of compassion and does actually drive the plot forward a significant bit.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Do people not know what fun is anymore? Does everything have to be a depressingly realistic representation? Does it even have to be a representation? Why, if so? Why can't a game, or an anime (designed SPECIFICALLY AND EXCLUSIVELY for teenage MALES to enjoy) simply be what they are: entertainment. They aren't a documentary, a history lesson, a simulation of reality. They are eye candy with addictive game mechanics designed to trigger the release of endorphins so you'll enjoy the product you paid for, which will promote the fame of the company that designed it so they can become more popular and sell more copies of future games. THAT. IS. THE. TRUTH OF IT.

When I see a candy bar I don't ***** about why its not an Apple. I know what I am getting in for. You people need to stop looking at things CLEARLY designed to be enjoyed and forgotten about and stop wanting it to be The Godfather Part Duex. A lesson on humanity, a work of art.

Just have fun for GOSH SAKE. If you're not having fun, DON'T WHINE about something until it gets demonized, MOVE ON. Do things you actually enjoy, and stop trying to villainize people who *GASP* enjoy watching *GASP* anime or *GASP* a video game that shows bigger than normal boobs on a girl thats not *GASP* and never will *GASP* be real.

Captcha: Real Life Experience

EVEN THE 1's and 0's are on my side.

Perhaps you are right in that I need to just look for other shows

Oh wait, thats the problem, so many shows are just fanservice crap. Stuff like Aldnoah Zero, Psycho Pass and Ghost in the Shell are hard to find and I really do not like swimming through 10 tons of crap to find them

You like fanservice stuff fine but I really am sick of the pandering

They really aren't that hard to fine at all. Do you pay attention to directors/writers and genre tags? If you do it makes it very easy to spot which anime are ones to watch to see which ones will be the best and which ones are going to have pandering. Especially, with the pandering you can see that a mile away by looking at the picture of the show on season charts.

Most of the females in stuff like Jormungand, Fate/Zero, Psycho Pass off the top of my head

As for worst there really is no such thing unless they are either a fan service character that fails at this or a real character that ends up being this. I find it funny when people mention stuff like DxD and HotD in this category.

Year by year it has never noticeably gone up or down as far as I can see. Although, it can vary season to season.

As long as you pay attention to stuff like genre tags, key visuals and writers/directors no there is no problem. Anime generally makes it very obvious as to what you're going to get.

Also as a side note I don't think ecchi series generally have a point in these threads and I've said it before and I'll say it again that they don't. They are designed to fall short of softcore porn and that is it.

To comment on the last point you made, Ecchi and story are not mutually exclusive. The Tale of Genji is a celebrated piece of fiction and it's very erotic, as are a few doujins here and there (see this trope page [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Pornwithplot] for more examples)

And while yes, most people don't care about the writing, I'm the type of person that needs something to get invested in; no story or personality, no investment in the ecchi.

Yes, I pay attention to directors, writers, and genre tags, it's just that Seinen is not exactly equal to shonen in number. I will admit my rhetoric makes it sound more like I want less shonen, that's not true. I love Kill la Kill and Jojo's Bizzare Adventure and one has subtext and themes underneath its writing and the other does give backstory to Polnareff and we have the recurring backstory of Dio vs the Joester family. What i'm getting at is that genre and focus is no excuse for bad writing.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

I question the implication that fanservice is bad. I thought the liberals won this debate with the church nearly a century ago. It's okay to be a sexual being, it's perfectly natural to fap, and it's okay to fantasize. Fantasies don't turn you into a rapist, and they certainly don't make you sexist. You don't choose what you're attracted to. And if you repress your sexuality, that's far worse for your health than exercising it has ever been. So fanservice is actually perfectly healthy to enjoy and look at, and you can have my fap material when you can pry it from my cold, dead, sticky hands.

So to answer op's questions:
-Revy, Yoko, Nausicaa, Panty. Four great strong female characters, some sexualized, some not, but that doesn't matter because the idea that sexual attraction and respect are mutually exclusive is a preposterous theory. I still respect them as characters regardless of whether or not I think they're beautiful.
-There are no "worst" examples. That's not to say that there aren't some weak characters who are just pure fanservice, but it's okay for those characters to exist because fanservice isn't bad.
-They're probably staying about the same, but the overtness of the fanservice is increasing. I've noticed panty shots in more recent anime have become more detailed than ever. And I love it.
-No, it doesn't have "an issue" because fanservice isn't wrong and therefore can't be an issue. There is still plenty of non-fanservicey, well-written anime if seeing big boobs really makes your head explode that much.

Fanservice is not bad, hell I had an issue of suppressing my sexuality and hatting fanservice and that led me to a lot of pain. It is simply that fanservice should not be a substitute for personality or character as you said in the first response to the questions. My complaints may be more with the lazy writing that accompanies some shows and the female charcters really highlight it

 

[Angelblaze]

On Topic:
-What are some very good female characters in anime and why?
Balalaika. My god, what a boss ass *****.

-What are some of the worst examples of fanservice or "waifu" characters and why?
I separated myself from most male 'fanservice' anime through one simply movement. I search it up on a anime streaming site called Anime Dreaming. I refuse to watch anything including the terms 'Sudden Girlfriend appearance', 'Yuri' and multiple others. Keeps things nice and simple.

-Do you think that fanservice and waifu characters are increasing or decreasing and why?
I'd say decreasing, but again, I separated myself from that culture.

-Does anime have an issue with waifu charcters and fanservice?
Yes but it's more along the lines of anime becoming too commercialized.

Off Topic:

Spoiler

There's a problem with this whole thing though....

Anime/Japanese gaming culture/manga has given the female audience more 'female gaze' things worldwide then the west ever has (perhaps until recently.) plus it often isn't just good to look at but also just plain good content. Specifically speaking the 'Bishounen' type characters.

Just within the past few months there's been; Free! (plus season 2 Eternal summer), 3rd season/revamp of Kuroshitsuji (Black Butler), Love Stage!, DRAMAtical Murder anime (An anime mind you that is based on a gay porn visual novel. Some fanservice...no sex scenes yet) and those are just the big ones from THIS season.

That being said, as of late, I can't really complain about fanservice. I've recently narrowed the pool of 'What I will allow myself to watch/see/listen to' by quite alot by adding one simple thing; 'If I see a nude/near-nude girl that's there only for eye candy and no attractive men or at least gay guys around for me to oogle, I don't watch it.'

What I mean when I say this is; Anime can get away with more, in my eyes, because its serving both sides. Western animation/gaming? Almost completely male dominated until very recently and even then its questionable.

Do people not know what fun is anymore? Does everything have to be a depressingly realistic representation? Does it even have to be a representation? Why, if so? Why can't a game, or an anime (designed SPECIFICALLY AND EXCLUSIVELY for teenage MALES to enjoy) simply be what they are: entertainment. They aren't a documentary, a history lesson, a simulation of reality. They are eye candy with addictive game mechanics designed to trigger the release of endorphins so you'll enjoy the product you paid for, which will promote the fame of the company that designed it so they can become more popular and sell more copies of future games. THAT. IS. THE. TRUTH OF IT.

When I see a candy bar I don't ***** about why its not an Apple. I know what I am getting in for. You people need to stop looking at things CLEARLY designed to be enjoyed and forgotten about and stop wanting it to be The Godfather Part Duex. A lesson on humanity, a work of art.

Just have fun for GOSH SAKE. If you're not having fun, DON'T WHINE about something until it gets demonized, MOVE ON. Do things you actually enjoy, and stop trying to villainize people who *GASP* enjoy watching *GASP* anime or *GASP* a video game that shows bigger than normal boobs on a girl thats not *GASP* and never will *GASP* be real.

Captcha: Real Life Experience

EVEN THE 1's and 0's are on my side.

Yes, god forbid people have a rational conversation regarding things they don't like. If this thread said anything like 'Omg, kill all the hentai lovers' I would agree with you but you are WAAAAAY over the top there with extreme amount of over-capitalization and insanity. I suggest you calm down, stop acting over the top in hoping it'll get your point across and come back when you can act just a bit more rationally.

Stop trying to 'villianize'* people who *gasp* want things different then the way you want them.

*You might wanna spell check that.

Now if you'll excuse me...I'm off to watch Toyko Ghoul.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

To answer as much of each portion as possible

The issue is not airbrushing, its the lack of real character development. I don't mind the whole perfect skin thing that women in anime have but the personalities are fairly absent from these characters. Also, Code Geass is Shonen and Kallen is a much better female character than a lot of female characters. Just because the demographic is teenage boys doesn't meant that you can pander to us by giving us empty female characters with no personality, conflict, or usefulness in the plot. If a girl is only there to say "look, I have boobs", I will call bull.

I understand that fanservice does not exclude a character from being a good female character but 90% of the time, a female character with excess fanservice is only there to give boys wank material.

When I say "Waifu" I'm talking about a character that seems perfectly designed to make us think "I would love to be in a relationship with her" or "I wish she was real so that I can *bleep* her" without any real fault. SAO seems to be the perfect example to me since Asuna is designed to be a perfect wife: caring, feisty, good looking, loyal; the issue is made worse thanks to Kirito's Gary Sue status and the fact that every other girl that falls for him falls for him because of fairly bland or stupid reasons with no real time (Asuna has an excuse since they were friends for two years but it's not much of an excuse for the waifu baiting)

To be honest dude the males are equally devoid of personality as well, they are designed to be blank everymen so you can project yourself onto them, thats just the way a lot of this teenage anime is. The side characters are often the only ones with any real depth.

I think you just have a problem with Shonen anime mate. Why not watch more seinen anime stuff (age range of 17-40). You are completely right though. Huge tits aren't there to advance any plot, they are just to fuel wanks. I don't think anyone is disputing that, and to be honest I don't have any problem with it. Unlike a lot of people, I don't think that big tits are the worst thing to happen to women ever, and that the inclusion of them in anything means women are getting objectified. But thats obviously debatable and for another time. But as I said a lot of what you are talking about is just shonen anime tropes. Which don't necessarily bleed into other types of anime.

I've never watched Code Geass as I dislike mech anime, so I'm afraid those girls are lost on me. I have suffered through the first two seasons of SAO though (it should have ended after part 1), so using Asuna as an example I think I get what you mean with regards to a waifu. And I'm sorry but I don't know why you are saying this sort of shit might be getting worse. This is what Shonen anime is. Bland male leads to allow teenage male viewers to imprint on, and overly loving non threatening girls to simulate a desirable relationship. I don't think these characters are a problem, I don't think they're decreasing or increasing. I just think they are a fact of Shonen anime, and if you watch Shonen then you'll have to deal with it.

To use my previous posts, Shonen is not an excuse for lazy writing. You can have characters that we project to or want to be in a relationship with but make them good characters. You can make charcters that are more tabula rosa than others and still have them have personality and character. Same with the female characters, sometimes the flaws are just as appealing as the high points and a romance is a lot more engaging if we see people working through those flaws instead of just saying "hey, we are generally nice people with no flaws, let's hook up"

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Do people not know what fun is anymore? Does everything have to be a depressingly realistic representation? Does it even have to be a representation? Why, if so? Why can't a game, or an anime (designed SPECIFICALLY AND EXCLUSIVELY for teenage MALES to enjoy) simply be what they are: entertainment. They aren't a documentary, a history lesson, a simulation of reality. They are eye candy with addictive game mechanics designed to trigger the release of endorphins so you'll enjoy the product you paid for, which will promote the fame of the company that designed it so they can become more popular and sell more copies of future games. THAT. IS. THE. TRUTH OF IT.

When I see a candy bar I don't ***** about why its not an Apple. I know what I am getting in for. You people need to stop looking at things CLEARLY designed to be enjoyed and forgotten about and stop wanting it to be The Godfather Part Duex. A lesson on humanity, a work of art.

Just have fun for GOSH SAKE. If you're not having fun, DON'T WHINE about something until it gets demonized, MOVE ON. Do things you actually enjoy, and stop trying to villainize people who *GASP* enjoy watching *GASP* anime or *GASP* a video game that shows bigger than normal boobs on a girl thats not *GASP* and never will *GASP* be real.

Captcha: Real Life Experience

EVEN THE 1's and 0's are on my side.

Perhaps you are right in that I need to just look for other shows

Oh wait, thats the problem, so many shows are just fanservice crap. Stuff like Aldnoah Zero, Psycho Pass and Ghost in the Shell are hard to find and I really do not like swimming through 10 tons of crap to find them

You like fanservice stuff fine but I really am sick of the pandering

They really aren't that hard to fine at all. Do you pay attention to directors/writers and genre tags? If you do it makes it very easy to spot which anime are ones to watch to see which ones will be the best and which ones are going to have pandering. Especially, with the pandering you can see that a mile away by looking at the picture of the show on season charts.

Most of the females in stuff like Jormungand, Fate/Zero, Psycho Pass off the top of my head

As for worst there really is no such thing unless they are either a fan service character that fails at this or a real character that ends up being this. I find it funny when people mention stuff like DxD and HotD in this category.

Year by year it has never noticeably gone up or down as far as I can see. Although, it can vary season to season.

As long as you pay attention to stuff like genre tags, key visuals and writers/directors no there is no problem. Anime generally makes it very obvious as to what you're going to get.

Also as a side note I don't think ecchi series generally have a point in these threads and I've said it before and I'll say it again that they don't. They are designed to fall short of softcore porn and that is it.

To comment on the last point you made, Ecchi and story are not mutually exclusive. The Tale of Genji is a celebrated piece of fiction and it's very erotic, as are a few doujins here and there (see this trope page [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Pornwithplot] for more examples)

And while yes, most people don't care about the writing, I'm the type of person that needs something to get invested in; no story or personality, no investment in the ecchi.

Yes, I pay attention to directors, writers, and genre tags, it's just that Seinen is not exactly equal to shonen in number. I will admit my rhetoric makes it sound more like I want less shonen, that's not true. I love Kill la Kill and Jojo's Bizzare Adventure and one has subtext and themes underneath its writing and the other does give backstory to Polnareff and we have the recurring backstory of Dio vs the Joester family. What i'm getting at is that genre and focus is no excuse for bad writing.

I never said ecchi can't have story but if you go into one expecting a good one with strong characters you're doing it wrong. That's fine if you do check stuff like that but I got from your comment was that you didn't really check them. If you do that's fine but personally finding good stuff isn't too hard.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Do people not know what fun is anymore? Does everything have to be a depressingly realistic representation? Does it even have to be a representation? Why, if so? Why can't a game, or an anime (designed SPECIFICALLY AND EXCLUSIVELY for teenage MALES to enjoy) simply be what they are: entertainment. They aren't a documentary, a history lesson, a simulation of reality. They are eye candy with addictive game mechanics designed to trigger the release of endorphins so you'll enjoy the product you paid for, which will promote the fame of the company that designed it so they can become more popular and sell more copies of future games. THAT. IS. THE. TRUTH OF IT.

When I see a candy bar I don't ***** about why its not an Apple. I know what I am getting in for. You people need to stop looking at things CLEARLY designed to be enjoyed and forgotten about and stop wanting it to be The Godfather Part Duex. A lesson on humanity, a work of art.

Just have fun for GOSH SAKE. If you're not having fun, DON'T WHINE about something until it gets demonized, MOVE ON. Do things you actually enjoy, and stop trying to villainize people who *GASP* enjoy watching *GASP* anime or *GASP* a video game that shows bigger than normal boobs on a girl thats not *GASP* and never will *GASP* be real.

Captcha: Real Life Experience

EVEN THE 1's and 0's are on my side.

Perhaps you are right in that I need to just look for other shows

Oh wait, thats the problem, so many shows are just fanservice crap. Stuff like Aldnoah Zero, Psycho Pass and Ghost in the Shell are hard to find and I really do not like swimming through 10 tons of crap to find them

You like fanservice stuff fine but I really am sick of the pandering

They really aren't that hard to fine at all. Do you pay attention to directors/writers and genre tags? If you do it makes it very easy to spot which anime are ones to watch to see which ones will be the best and which ones are going to have pandering. Especially, with the pandering you can see that a mile away by looking at the picture of the show on season charts.

Most of the females in stuff like Jormungand, Fate/Zero, Psycho Pass off the top of my head

As for worst there really is no such thing unless they are either a fan service character that fails at this or a real character that ends up being this. I find it funny when people mention stuff like DxD and HotD in this category.

Year by year it has never noticeably gone up or down as far as I can see. Although, it can vary season to season.

As long as you pay attention to stuff like genre tags, key visuals and writers/directors no there is no problem. Anime generally makes it very obvious as to what you're going to get.

Also as a side note I don't think ecchi series generally have a point in these threads and I've said it before and I'll say it again that they don't. They are designed to fall short of softcore porn and that is it.

To comment on the last point you made, Ecchi and story are not mutually exclusive. The Tale of Genji is a celebrated piece of fiction and it's very erotic, as are a few doujins here and there (see this trope page [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Pornwithplot] for more examples)

And while yes, most people don't care about the writing, I'm the type of person that needs something to get invested in; no story or personality, no investment in the ecchi.

Yes, I pay attention to directors, writers, and genre tags, it's just that Seinen is not exactly equal to shonen in number. I will admit my rhetoric makes it sound more like I want less shonen, that's not true. I love Kill la Kill and Jojo's Bizzare Adventure and one has subtext and themes underneath its writing and the other does give backstory to Polnareff and we have the recurring backstory of Dio vs the Joester family. What i'm getting at is that genre and focus is no excuse for bad writing.

I never said ecchi can't have story but if you go into one expecting a good one with strong characters you're doing it wrong. That's fine if you do check stuff like that but I got from your comment was that you didn't really check them. If you do that's fine but personally finding good stuff isn't too hard.

I suppose it may be that I am not looking hard enough or I am too picky but the point still stands that writing quality is not the best at times and even good writers can screw up stuff so names are not as good of an indicator to me as a review later down the shows run

 

[verdant monkai]

To use my previous posts, Shonen is not an excuse for lazy writing. You can have characters that we project to or want to be in a relationship with but make them good characters. You can make charcters that are more tabula rosa than others and still have them have personality and character. Same with the female characters, sometimes the flaws are just as appealing as the high points and a romance is a lot more engaging if we see people working through those flaws instead of just saying "hey, we are generally nice people with no flaws, let's hook up"

I don't think having a few bland protagonists makes for lazy writing, their blandness is often used as a chance to show character development. With regards to romance plots I'd agree that 2 dimensional characters can be quite dull. But I'm really not interested in romance stories, I've never found one in any form of entertainment I found all that entertaining or charming. But since I don't care about romance, I don't care if the male leads love interest is a bug eyed, loving, faithful, busty, waifu monster. So I can see your problem very clearly now. I just honestly believe you have a Shonen problem, sure not all Shonen has poorly written girls but as a rule its a mine field of what you'd call waifus.