Anita Sarkeesian + Hitman Absolution = Epic Fail

[WindKnight]

Ah, so it's perfectly rational and normal to murder a women in a dress or a man in a suit, but I should avoid doing so when they are undressed.

that means I can murder some African and Hawaiin tribes in the droves!

Really, if you can't handle the violence, why not just stick to rated T or E games? I don't really see the difference between murdering people who have their top either on or off. Murdering people is wrong regardless, but its a video game lol.

I find it ironic that you expect a game being rated Mature somehow lets it get away with being immature and thoughtless with regards to the implications of sexulised violence.

 

[MysticSlayer]

Well, you can really make anything seem like an object if you try hard enough. Te shopkeepers in games like Skyrim or Resident Evil have no other purpose but to sell you loot. The enemies you murder in droves have no other purpose but being hacked into pieces for slaughter.

Even if you could argue that a male storekeeper is just an object for the player to interact with, is that the only, or at least predominant, way in which players interact with non-enemy male NPCs?

 

[SUPA FRANKY]

Ah, so it's perfectly rational and normal to murder a women in a dress or a man in a suit, but I should avoid doing so when they are undressed.

that means I can murder some African and Hawaiin tribes in the droves!

Really, if you can't handle the violence, why not just stick to rated T or E games? I don't really see the difference between murdering people who have their top either on or off. Murdering people is wrong regardless, but its a video game lol.

I find it ironic that you expect a game being rated Mature somehow lets it get away with being immature and thoughtless with regards tot he implications of sexulaised violence.

Implications? Any ADULT or kid with half a brain knows you can't do the stuff you do in games in real life.

Just stick to rated T or E games if you can't handle it. No one says you have to like it, but saying it should exist is just lol.

 

[SUPA FRANKY]

Well, you can really make anything seem like an object if you try hard enough. Te shopkeepers in games like Skyrim or Resident Evil have no other purpose but to sell you loot. The enemies you murder in droves have no other purpose but being hacked into pieces for slaughter.

Even if you could argue that a male storekeeper is just an object for the player to interact with, is that the only, or at least predominant, way in which players interact with non-enemy male NPCs?

Preety much yea, alot of them have to look for you for guidance in order to complete quest and usually have no initiative to just do it themselves. Their bodies tend to be left in the street as if they are trash ( at least on PC)

You can make anything seem like an object if you try hard enough.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

so if this wasnt a stripper club, if instead this was, a pool or a beach, where theres a lot of women in bikinis, i wouldnt be allowed to kill them because thatd be sexualized violence? if i found a women attractive in the game, even if say, she is the villain, im not allowed to kill her because its sexualized violence?, if i were to find male security guards attractive, i wouldnt be able to kill them because its sexualized violence?

see how that logic doesnt work?

I see how your 'logic' doesn't work. I have to ask, why would you want to gun down a pool or beachs worth of sunbathers? And yes, I personally would find that kind of violence just as disturbing and sexualised as violence against sex workers.

Also, is this villainess, and the security guards going around dressed in a sexualised manner and presented as sex objects? Please show me these sex object security guards.

because i can, its a game, theres no real life consequences, so i can do all kinds of crazy stuff, and i choose to kill people on a beach

if you are so concerned about what people are wearing the moment they are killed, i say your priorities was horribly misplaced

for the sake of this argument i know find security guard inconceivably arousing, since everyone has different concepts of what is sexy and what not, i now find the uniforms and obliviousness hot as fuck, now what? is it "sexualized" violence if i kill them?

also for the sake of this argument, lets say i have to for some reason kill this person in a game

she is literally the most beautiful women ive ever seen in my entire life, im not even joking here, i fucking adore her, but because of reasons, she is an ingame character and she did some bad stuff and i have to kill her (granted is gonna be hard) is that sexualized violence? if i find someone attrative, all violence agaisnt that person is sexualized?

plus adding to that point, sex workers, they provide sexual services, they dress in arousing ways, its their job, your argument pretty much puts them in a different level from everyone else in the game because of the nature of their work, that is discrimination

explain to me how the job of a sex worker is not inherently sexualized, if you cant do that your argument is completely empty

Does the fact their job makes them sexualised magically make violence against them not sexualised? Does that somehow make it alright?

im not arguing violence agaisnt them isnt "sexualized" im in fact arguing violence agaisnt them HAS be "sexualized", by imposing your arbitrary rule agaisnt "sexualized" violence, you marginalize sex workers, simply because of their job

 

[WindKnight]

I find it ironic that you expect a game being rated Mature somehow lets it get away with being immature and thoughtless with regards tot he implications of sexulaised violence.

Implications? Any ADULT or kid with half a brain knows you can't do the stuff you do in games in real life.

Just stick to rated T or E games if you can't handle it. No one says you have to like it, but saying it should exist is just lol.

I'm saying it should put a lot more care and thought into it before it does it, and be aware of ways it may make others feel or perhaps influence attitudes and views. not just stick it in to be 'gritty' and 'adult'. I mean, the 90's comic market embraced 'gritty' and 'adult' in pretty much the same way, and that all went pair shaped.

Also, you are so cutesy trying to question whether I can handle M games or not. Just adorable. Are you going to call me chicken next, and make the noise with your mouth?

 

[SUPA FRANKY]

I find it ironic that you expect a game being rated Mature somehow lets it get away with being immature and thoughtless with regards tot he implications of sexulaised violence.

Implications? Any ADULT or kid with half a brain knows you can't do the stuff you do in games in real life.

Just stick to rated T or E games if you can't handle it. No one says you have to like it, but saying it should exist is just lol.

I'm saying it should put a lot more care and thought into it before it does it, and be aware of ways it may make others feel or perhaps influence attitudes and views. not just stick it in to be 'gritty' and 'adult'. I mean, the 90's comic market embraced 'gritty' and 'adult' in pretty much the same way, and that all went pair shaped.

Also, you are so cutesy trying to question whether I can handle M games or not. Just adorable. Are you going to call me chicken next, and make the noise with your mouth?

Take care in how people are murdered. Isn't that a bit morbid.

I'm questioning whether you can handle because a well adjusted adult or child should know that the things you do in games AREN'T okay lol. You can't run people over with your car, regardless of what they are wearing. You can't hack people apart or blow their brains out, regardless of what they are wearing. But its a video game, that is consequence free.

If you can't handle that the people in video games are not real, and are not trying to get the player to commit such actions in real life, then just stick to rated T or E games, where such violence or "implications" are heavily diluted.

lol

 

[IceForce]

the problem is that we never see these strippers and prostitutes as anything but sex objects. They are literally just there to be titillation for the player. You could change any of the missions in any of the Hitman-games were strippers appear to a location without strippers and the narrative wouldn't change. That, right there, is an indication that they serve no purpose other than to titillate and provide fanservice.

I don't think you'd be able to change the location without changing the narrative.

You'd have to rebrand 47's target as something other than a strip club owner. Or at the very least, have the mission take place at his house or somewhere away from his place of business.

Alternatively, and without changing the location, have 47 break into a closed strip club to kill the owner. And have no strippers present there at the time.

But I don't necessarily like this idea. Background decoration does serve a purpose, crass as it may sound.
Be it flower planter pots, or NPCs who serve no purpose other than to be gawked at and/or killed; by removing them, you're removing a piece of background decoration, and the game becomes more empty and less immersive as a result.

 

[WindKnight]

she is literally the most beautiful women ive ever seen in my entire life, im not even joking here, i fucking adore her, but because of reasons, she is an ingame character and she did some bad stuff and i have to kill her (granted is gonna be hard) is that sexualized violence? if i find someone attrative, all violence agaisnt that person is sexualized?

Your not exactly helping your argument by posting a character who's outfit is a string bikini top and hot pants. Pretty much the definition of a sexualised outfit.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

and many CHOOSE to be sex workers, stop putting people in the same bag, i bet many sex workers find attitudes like yours condescending

they are sex workers, arguing they look sexualized is beyond absurd, sex workers, they provide sexual services, the very nature of their work is sexualized, what the hell do you expect?

and lets not forged the fact that YOU ARE TRYING TO KILL THE ABUSIVE BOSS OF THESE SEXUAL WORKERS, IN WHAT UNIVERSE IS THAT SEXIST?, THE GAME IS ACTIVELY CRIMINALIZING THE VERY THING YOUR ARE CRITIZING, IT REWARDS YOU FOR KILLING THE ABUSIVE GUY, IT PUNISHES YOU TO HURTING THE STRIPPERS, WHAT ELSE DO YOU WANT?

Somewhere between 70%-90% of all sex workers worldwide are forced into prostitution and have not willingly entered the field (Sex Trafficking: Inside the Business of Modern Slavery. Kara, 2009). Saying that many chose to be sex workers is in this context a gross misrepresentation of the reality of prostitution. That media keeps glorifying the presence of prostitution is pretty troublesome in that light.

But that is ignoring the main problem: Why are there strippers and prostitutes in the game to begin with? What purpose do they serve to the narrative? Would the narrative suffer if they weren't included?
One could argue that the Hitman-series has always had a thematic lean towards Noir and a cynical, borderline nihilist outlook on the events, characters and locations in the game. 47's targets are all terrible people who engage in depravity and who make their money on dubious business like drugs, weapon smuggling, prostitution, trafficking and other forms of organized crime. 47 is an anti-hero that kills these people not because it is right, but because he is paid to do so, in essence being only marginally better than his victims (on account of being emotionless and seemingly uninterested in the vices offered).

so? first of all im not sure in the western worl the statistics are that high, second, just assume most sex workers in a game do so willingly, and in hitman, where they are not, you are killing their abusive employer

also cant a game has a stripper club just for the sake of having a stripper club?

agent 47 could also be black, that doesnt mean the game is racist, he could be a woman, that doesnt mean the game is sexist

its a deliberate artistic decision to complement the narrative and themes of the thiman series which, like you said

The above could work as an explanation, but the problem is that we never see these strippers and prostitutes as anything but sex objects. They are literally just there to be titillation for the player. You could change any of the missions in any of the Hitman-games were strippers appear to a location without strippers and the narrative wouldn't change. That, right there, is an indication that they serve no purpose other than to titillate and provide fanservice.

One should also note that apart from deducting arbitrary points, Absolution doesn't punish excessive use of force or cruelty to bystanders. You can go guns blazing through the strip club and murder every last person and still complete the mission and move on like nothing happened. I wouldn't really call that punishing the player, since it is way closer to suggesting a playstyle.

so? should the player fail immediately if they kill a bystander? you can also go guns blazing on pretty much any other mission in the game


the game chooses, to discriminate NPCs based on their job, how is that bad?

 

[WindKnight]

If you can't handle that the people in video games are not real, and are not trying to get the player to commit such actions in real life, then just stick to rated T or E games, where such violence or "implications" are heavily diluted.

lol

theres a big difference between 'videogames make you do things' and 'videogames can influence how you think and feel about things.

Spec Ops: the line would not had the impact it did if they didn't have the potential to affect you, your thoughts and your feelings.

 

[SUPA FRANKY]

she is literally the most beautiful women ive ever seen in my entire life, im not even joking here, i fucking adore her, but because of reasons, she is an ingame character and she did some bad stuff and i have to kill her (granted is gonna be hard) is that sexualized violence? if i find someone attrative, all violence agaisnt that person is sexualized?

Your not exactly helping your argument by posting a character who's outfit is a string bikini top and hot pants. Pretty much the definition of a sexualised outfit.

Man, you have some problems with nudity or something. They are just boobs and butt. All people and animals have them lol.

I got over that nonsense when I was 16. We all start out nude.

 

[SUPA FRANKY]

If you can't handle that the people in video games are not real, and are not trying to get the player to commit such actions in real life, then just stick to rated T or E games, where such violence or "implications" are heavily diluted.

lol

theres a big difference between 'videogames make you do things' and 'videogames can influence how you think and feel about things.

Spec Ops: the line would not had the impact it did if they didn't have the potential to affect you, your thoughts and your feelings.

Diffrence? That's the same thing lol. Is there a diffrence between a guy ordering you to do something or just whispering suggestions in your ear? It is up to YOU what you do in your life. No one can make you do anything.

I like playing Battlefield. I guess that means I'm going to join the army now lol.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

she is literally the most beautiful women ive ever seen in my entire life, im not even joking here, i fucking adore her, but because of reasons, she is an ingame character and she did some bad stuff and i have to kill her (granted is gonna be hard) is that sexualized violence? if i find someone attrative, all violence agaisnt that person is sexualized?

Your not exactly helping your argument by posting a character who's outfit is a string bikini top and hot pants. Pretty much the definition of a sexualised outfit.

THIS is sexualized?

Spoiler

she is a cosplayer, she choose to dress like that, how is that sexualized, and regardless, the things i find the most attractive about her is her face and smile, so really concentrate on that for the sake of the argument

i really dont get the "poliitically correct" crowd, now women cant dress in any way they like because some people might find them attractive? the hell?

the taliban must be the most fucking progressive people in the world then

Spoiler

 

[IceForce]

if i were to find male security guards attractive, i wouldnt be able to kill them because its sexualized violence?

Not exactly the best example, given that security guards generally aren't sexualized, so therefore it wouldn't be "sexualized violence".

A better example would be the gay strippers in that gay bar in The Ballad of Gay Tony:

Spoiler: Not the best image, but the gay male strippers don't even wear shirts

As far as I'm aware, it's possible to kill everyone in that place.

It's not sexism though, take note, because your brutal killings can be done to both males and females.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

if i were to find male security guards attractive, i wouldnt be able to kill them because its sexualized violence?

Not exactly the best example, given that security guards generally aren't sexualized, so therefore it wouldn't be "sexualized violence".

A better example would be the gay strippers in that gay bar in The Ballad of Gay Tony:

Spoiler: Not the best image, but the gay male strippers don't even wear shirts

As far as I'm aware, it's possible to kill everyone in that place.

It's not sexism though, take note, because your brutal killings can be done to both males and females.

i say the term "sexualized" it relative, what people find sexy differs form people to people and from society to society

but your example is also good

 

[Shadowstar38]

If you can't handle that the people in video games are not real, and are not trying to get the player to commit such actions in real life, then just stick to rated T or E games, where such violence or "implications" are heavily diluted.

lol

theres a big difference between 'videogames make you do things' and 'videogames can influence how you think and feel about things.

Spec Ops: the line would not had the impact it did if they didn't have the potential to affect you, your thoughts and your feelings.

The makers of Spec Ops were being deliberately subversive in order to deliver a point to the audience.

Hitman on the other hand, has some elements that make sense to be there, and a minority of the audience are pulling sexists undertones from it. The game itself doesn't actually have much to say about equality.

 

[SUPA FRANKY]

if i were to find male security guards attractive, i wouldnt be able to kill them because its sexualized violence?

Not exactly the best example, given that security guards generally aren't sexualized, so therefore it wouldn't be "sexualized violence".

A better example would be the gay strippers in that gay bar in The Ballad of Gay Tony:

Spoiler: Not the best image, but the gay male strippers don't even wear shirts

As far as I'm aware, it's possible to kill everyone in that place.

It's not sexism though, take note, because your brutal killings can be done to both males and females.

What if men in suits turns me on? Is it sexualized violence then? What if I liked woman in burkas? Would it be sexualized violence then?

 

[WindKnight]

THIS is sexualized?

Spoiler

she is a cosplayer, she choose to dress like that, how is that sexualized, and regardless, the things i find the most attractive about her is her face and smile, so really concentrate on that for the sake of the argument

The character she's cosplaying as goes around in all situations in a bikini, and the other elements of her clothes are more about accentuating her bare skin than covering it.

Are you honestly saying Rikku's character design is NOT sexualised? Come On dude, I LOVE litchi from Blazblue for her characterization, but I'm not going to pretend her design hasn't got strong sexual and fetish baiting elements. You are not being honest when you point at Rikku and say her design does not include elements that are not sexualised.

 

[WindKnight]

if i were to find male security guards attractive, i wouldnt be able to kill them because its sexualized violence?

Not exactly the best example, given that security guards generally aren't sexualized, so therefore it wouldn't be "sexualized violence".

A better example would be the gay strippers in that gay bar in The Ballad of Gay Tony:

Spoiler: Not the best image, but the gay male strippers don't even wear shirts

As far as I'm aware, it's possible to kill everyone in that place.

It's not sexism though, take note, because your brutal killings can be done to both males and females.

What if men in suits turns me on? Is it sexualized violence then? What if I liked woman in burkas? Would it be sexualized violence then?

Thats personal fetish violence, not sexualised violence. Whatever floats your boat dude.